Tiny homes, communities for them and the future.

Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes

Good morning everyone!

I'm interested in the overall general feeling from those of you in the real estate world on tiny homes, more specifically mobile tiny homes. Like the ones they show on TV. I'm personally building my own tiny home and am working to establish a pilot community for THoW's in the Denver metro area. I really do believe these small structures can offer a solution to housing issues in the short term and may even be a long term solution for many.

Being a part of the movement, I understand the mindset or as I like to call it the "psychographics" of the people choosing tiny living. Does anyone have experience with these small structures? Or dare I say it... a mobile home community?

I love the tiny home movement, the people that choose this lifestyle and pouring the efforts into turning the movement into a legit industry!

#LegalizeTiny!

My home: Meraki [Greek- μεράκι] - To put a little of oneself into what you do, whatever it may be.

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Thomas S.

Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes

Tiny homes are a fad. Most buyers/builders spend far more than they are worth and rarely stay with them very long. Resale is very low due to limited buyers. Most are worth 50% or less that what they cost.

Most quickly discover they are not practical and realise their money is better invested in a conventional home where it retains value and usually appreciates.

RVs and small mobile homes have existed for 60+ years. No reason to reinvent the wheel at twice the cost.

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David Sisson
Architect · Providence, RI · Member since 2016 · 258 posts · 195 votes
7y
They are mobile homes, just better looking. Honestly, develop a mobile home community that's just for tiny homes. IMHO, tiny homes have the same challenges as RV's or mobile homes.
The biggest issues:
1) Zoning
2) They lose value because they aren't attached to land
3) They don't have permanent plumbing or electrical unless they are attached to land
Your best bet:
1) Develop a tiny house community / park
2) Work to change your local ordinance to be more accepting of tiny homes
3) Some other idea that at least solves the water/sewer/electrical problem.
8 Reply
Greg Scully
Rental Property Investor · Johnson City TN · Member since 2016 · 386 posts · 271 votes
7y
@Account Closed mentioned, but a community with some shared amenities could be a real attraction.
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Account Closed
OP
Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes
7y
@Greg Scully
I'm working on that as we speak Greg! I have a jurisdiction willing to work with my concept and I'll continue to advocate for tiny homes. I'm looking for more and differing opinions/approaches.
The main reason I joined BP is the networking opportunity to find outside capital to being this vision into reality!
With gratitude,
Joe
1 Reply
Cory CarlsonBusiness Member
Real Estate Broker · OR · Member since 2018 · 311 posts · 226 votes
7y
There are tiny home communities here in Oregon. Check out Eugene and Bend policies and perhaps you can use what they have learned in your development.
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Thomas S.
Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
7y
Tiny homes are a fad. Most buyers/builders spend far more than they are worth and rarely stay with them very long. Resale is very low due to limited buyers. Most are worth 50% or less that what they cost.
Most quickly discover they are not practical and realise their money is better invested in a conventional home where it retains value and usually appreciates.
RVs and small mobile homes have existed for 60+ years. No reason to reinvent the wheel at twice the cost.
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OP
Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes
7y
@Thomas S.
A properly designed tiny home functions very well to the specific individual. Which would explain poor resale value. BUT if that home meets the needs of the individual/family why do they need to sell it? Assuming needs don't change. Most tiny home people I know already have plans in place FOR change. For example, I designed my home, which I am very excited about being able to live in it! I know it will work for me as it has all the things designed into it that are important to me. I've also built in the "extra" space for when I find a partner and we need our "space".
The movement, in and of itself has been happening for well over a decade now. Is that a FAD? To me a fad is parachute pants, or bowl cuts, or frosted tips (can you tell I'm from the 90's? LOL!)
If we do take a page out of the mobile home book, we'd need to update it as the construction and architecture vary widely different from traditional "mobile homes". Normalizing tiny homes needs to happen, just like mobile homes did in the 70's.
Thank you for your opinion and input sir, it's greatly appreciated!
With humble gratitude,
Joe
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Jeff Kehl
Rental Property Investor · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 726 votes
7y
@Thomas S. has it right. Most people live in a tiny house only in times of economic distress. Do some research. There was another tiny house trend in our country. Guess when? The 1930's in the height of the recession. Also, if you live in a very tiny house called a tent guess what we will call you? Homeless.
You can do whatever you want with your housing needs but here's my opinion. People will live in the biggest, nicest place they can afford and so they should.
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OP
Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes
7y
Thank you for your opinion @Jeff Kehl!
I have done and am still doing research as I'm working to move forward on community development for these structures.
It almost sounds to me that you could look into the structures themselves as well as understanding the type of people that are choosing to live this type of lifestyle. People do not choose homelessness. Tiny living is more of a mindset than anything else. To live intentionally, to have a reduced footprint, to consume less is the mission and goal.
They're not for everyone, I agree but the movement has been going on long enough, where it's time to normalize and #LegalizeTiny!
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Thomas S.
Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
7y
@Account Closed
Do a Google search...."are tiny homes a good idea"
Knish market at best. The life style is not sustainable as personal situations evolve over time. Good luck finding a partner that shares your vision wanting to live in a RV camper. Many have moved forward with idealistic ideas only to discover reality is a much different animal. Best use is as a secondary rental unit in extremely expensive areas.
Many small business enterprises have grown out of the fad and most found it to be unsustainable.
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OP
Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes
7y
@Thomas S. - By "many small business enterprises..." who do you mean and how do they know it's unsustainable? There are only but a few communities that have been established, largely because of zoning issues. Which those issues are becoming less and less everyday.
I do agree that it's very much a niche market, for now! People don't see it the way I see it. Apparently... I see an opportunity! Retirees looking to downsize and some even want to travel. Tiny homes are built WAY better than RV's and they're healthier! Live in an RV for 6 months and tell me it doesn't develop mold, fall apart or become otherwise dilapidated. The picture I posted of the home I'm building has 20 gauge steel studs, exterior rated sheathing systems, steel siding, etc. etc. Young people also look to these as a means to have attainable housing, and yes some of them are even doing it as a means to an end, i.e. save the money to buy that bigger, fancier house. That's fine too!
Just because things have "always been done" a certain way, doesn't mean it's the only way! Trust me my friend, I've done ALL kinds of Google searches on tiny homes.
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Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
7y
" Tiny home community " or "trailer park " or campground " All the same thing . You are parking a trailer on land and living there .
Heres why most areas wont let them fly ......... TAXES the local government doesnt get enough taxes from them to fund schools , roads , emergency services .
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David Sisson
Architect · Providence, RI · Member since 2016 · 258 posts · 195 votes
7y
I think there is a market for it, niche or otherwise. I don't believe they are investments, unless they are tied to land. I do believe they are not for everyone.
Option 1: a 400 square foot 'tiny home'. Needs to be on wheels to avoid zoning requirements. This makes it difficult to site it, and therefore it's a RV or a mobile home. This means it'll lose value over time. Still could be an investment, if you did a mobile home park just for these tiny homes. Still could be an investment if you were able to place it on a permanent foundation and attach it to water, sewer, electrical. It does fulfill a need, because it does provide a place for people to live. In terms of this website, I don't think many people here would be interested, because we are all about investment.
Option 2: a 600 square foot home placed on a site, on a foundation, connected to water, sewer, electrical, gas, etc. It's an investment. It'd "cost" more to build in the first place, mainly because of the cost of land and the cost of the utilities. The cost of the home would be about the same. Maybe the foundation would cost more. This is an actual investment, because it's real estate. It may or may not be allowed by zoning, because of it's small size.
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Eric L.
Rental Property Investor · Clarksville, TN · Member since 2014 · 85 posts · 37 votes
7y
@Joe Callantine
I had this tiny home community idea years ago. I was able to talk to the city about it and got shot down. Now, almost 5 years later, the city is actually helping a developer with this same concept.
My point is, sometimes it takes time.
2 Reply
Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y
check this out not exactly tiny but made from containers.. this is my aviation partners start up.
relevantbuildings.com/ he also owns land in Portland area were he can put 100 plus of these his vision is to basically set it up like a MHP..
and keep in mind this is developer has the wherewhithal to do this out of cash.
not sure if he has gotten our bank on board for a loan yet.
you will see an 8 plex he is putting up in St Helens Oregon.
but park models on wheels to me are just that MHs with fancy exteriors.
Carls vision also for these container homes is to penetrate the rural market.. as anyone who has owned a remote ranch type property knows that vandals and thefts are common place with these you can really secure them up so they don't get wrecked.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y
@David Sisson as an architect check out this
relevantbuildings.com/ he has this up and running..
let me know what you think on this thread please.
also Europe is way ahead of us in this stuff .. and frankly most building applicatons.
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Todd Dexheimer
Rental Property Investor · St. Paul, MN · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
7y
There are tiny homes everywhere in mobile homes and houses built in the 1960's and before. Those homes are not in high demand, so I don't see how these new tiny homes will last. Plus you have condos, micro units and regular apartments that are small as well
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Account Closed
Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
Tiny homes are awesome!!!
But, I have to admit the naysayers commenting here are not wrong either. I do think they lack a bit of vision though.
A mobile tiny house is a mobile home, and frankly simply purchasing an RV is likely going to be a better value. I have been to a couple parks and have seen a few tiny house in the mix. They look out of place there and they are.
However, those are mostly vacation locations or, are strictly for mobile homes, which we all know are difficult (impossible?) to obtain financing for because they are mobile!!!
I have another vision entirely. And I believe others share it, and I don't think it's is a fad at all. It's the minimalist life style. It's the live outdoors and sleep inside life style. It's the only thing I can afford for the moment life style. It's the I built this myself life style. (Cheap to maintain as an investor life style?)
Around here, the biggest challenge to a tiny house community is typical zoning in urban areas. Most zoning around here requires a minimum structure size of about 600 sf.
What I think would be absolutely fantastic (though I admit I am not sure if it would be feasible because I have never worked through the numbers and, it is always more per sf the smaller you build) would be an entire area dedicated to tiny houses. This would likely be what we call a Planned Unit Development around here, where the developer comes in and sets up sites for homes, but also sets aside areas for common space. Developers have been able to get around zoning in this way already (for larger homes).
How cool would it be to have a tiny home community with a common building, park space and even some commercial space (for say a grocery store a person could walk to? gas station too?). Put the whole thing on the bus line so people would not need a car if they didn't want to have one.
I envision zoning that actually limited the size of the structure (most zoning does that already), but placed no minimums. The sites would be large enough for small expansions. The initial home could be built, lets say maybe with a car-port that had footings suitable for a future building. Then the car-port could be used as a car-port, or double as a covered out-door space, and eventually if desired, be expanded to finished living space. The key would be initial structure placement on the site to allow for future expansion.
The advantage of a tiny house vs a mobile home would be the quality of construction able to withstand stronger winds, and the presence of a basement that could be used for extra space and also, a storm shelter. Also, a permanent home is eligible for financing, though that is going to be a bit tough starting out under the present lending rules (gotta have comps and marketability).
I think you could easily have low-income, minimalists, artists and DIY folks all enjoying and benefiting from that sort of community.
And, mobile homes are just so ugly.
I've been toying with turning my large shed into a tiny house for guests.
Now, is it all feasible? How about profitable? That's likely why it hasn't happened much yet. Likely feasible, but not profitable, so you might need a group of owners getting together to build a community, instead of the traditional developer.
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Joe SplitrockPro Member
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Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
7y
@Account Closed tiny homes are nothing new, it is just a hipster name given to pretty looking mobile homes. Don't believe me? The picture you posted is basically the same size as a single wide AND it has wheels. Place those in a small lot community and what do you have??
The problem is tiny homes are not economical. The lowest cost housing is always going to be what makes best use of land and structure. That is apartments, condos or townhouses. You achieve higher density and shared walls to reduce structure cost. Individual structures are not the most economical or environmentally conscience method of housing. Cities have limited mobile home parks because the communities degrade over time.
You have to answer the question of what problem do "tiny homes" solve? It is not low cost housing so it is not an option for the homeless. You need to refine the marketing focus to people who have money, but buy the life style. If you try to sell it as the low cost alternative, math will get in the way.
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Account Closed
Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:
" Tiny home community " or "trailer park " or campground " All the same thing . You are parking a trailer on land and living there .
Heres why most areas wont let them fly ......... TAXES the local government doesnt get enough taxes from them to fund schools , roads , emergency services .
You make a very good point. I would add that is wealth discrimination on the part of the municipality. I would also add that tiny house are never going to be the majority type, by a long-shot, which makes the argument somewhat moot.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Account Closed tiny homes are nothing new, it is just a hipster name given to pretty looking mobile homes. Don't believe me? The picture you posted is basically the same size as a single wide AND it has wheels. Place those in a small lot community and what do you have??
The problem is tiny homes are not economical. The lowest cost housing is always going to be what makes best use of land and structure. That is apartments, condos or townhouses. You achieve higher density and shared walls to reduce structure cost. Individual structures are not the most economical or environmentally conscience method of housing. Cities have limited mobile home parks because the communities degrade over time.
You have to answer the question of what problem do "tiny homes" solve? It is not low cost housing so it is not an option for the homeless. You need to refine the marketing focus to people who have money, but buy the life style. If you try to sell it as the low cost alternative, math will get in the way.
Joe look at my partners vision for tiny homes
relevantbuildings.com/
I think you will see these are pretty cool but they are not cheap.. Of course in our world here on the west coast in any major urban setting we are seeing median price homes at 400k.. these will work in a few spots.. I bought a few lots in Richmond CA and was toying with the idea of putting these on their.. but he does not have them approved outside of OR>
I snagged the lot for 60k put say one of these 100k units on it and now you have a 175k into a home in market that is 25 minutes ( without heavy commute traffic) to downtown SF.. were median price is about 1.5 million.. so these would fill a huge need and gap in high priced areas.. for 90% of the country I don't see it.. existing homes in areas like say indy were median home price is 120k.. you can buy existing for less .. why bother right ?
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Grant Rothenburger
Investor · Taylor Mill, KY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 964 votes
7y
@Account Closed
I think tiny homes will play a huge role in the future. That future may be 20 years away, it may be 5.
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Account Closed
Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Account Closed tiny homes are nothing new, it is just a hipster name given to pretty looking mobile homes. Don't believe me? The picture you posted is basically the same size as a single wide AND it has wheels. Place those in a small lot community and what do you have??
The problem is tiny homes are not economical. The lowest cost housing is always going to be what makes best use of land and structure. That is apartments, condos or townhouses. You achieve higher density and shared walls to reduce structure cost. Individual structures are not the most economical or environmentally conscience method of housing. Cities have limited mobile home parks because the communities degrade over time.
You have to answer the question of what problem do "tiny homes" solve? It is not low cost housing so it is not an option for the homeless. You need to refine the marketing focus to people who have money, but buy the life style. If you try to sell it as the low cost alternative, math will get in the way.
I pretty much agree. Except that it's the American Dream to own your own piece of the pie. And one step more to own land rights. Condos come close, but the land is owned with others. I think you are right about people who have money and want a simpler life style, but there are also those who might try to save money by building themselves. So, these homes are both expensive per sf, and cheap per sf, depending on the person.
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Account Closed
OP
Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes
7y
@Merritt S.
Hit the nail right on the head, IMO!
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Account Closed
OP
Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes
7y
@Merritt S.
The way I envision it isn't a new concept. Resident owned communities. I've been working and consulting with various key people on the best way to orchestrate the idea. Without going into details there'd be a vested interest of the residents in terms of ownership. So, while they might not own the land directly, they'd have something to show for their investment.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

@Merritt S.
The way I envision it isn't a new concept. Resident owned communities. I've been working and consulting with various key people on the best way to orchestrate the idea. Without going into details there'd be a vested interest of the residents in terms of ownership. So, while they might not own the land directly, they'd have something to show for their investment.
you could set it up just like a MHP you could do a co op you could do a condo plat.. you could do a TIC.. many ways to skin that cat that has already been done or is being done.
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