Anyone building new construction with tilt-wall?

Russell Holmes · 2018-11-02T16:59:09-07:00

This is basically an information gathering post, some things I've been turning over in my head. I've got a few clients considering new construction and I've connected with an architect/builder firm so I have a good feeling for the general process of site analysis, conceptual design plans, and final complete construction docs. However, I'm curious with all of the tech advances in recent times and ever changing code, has anyone found benefit to thinking outside of concrete block and wood frame? Concrete block is in demand here in FL for good reason. I've looked into ICF (insulated concrete forms) and believe it is a premium method that builds a "better" stronger and more insulated house, but at a higher cost. For my own house that may be great, but it's basically over-building for an investment. The area I live in is booming with residential, commercial, and light industrial growth. I'm starting to see lots of modern "California style" new construction residential: large uninterrupted vertical planes, crisp clean geometric design, single plane roofs as opposed to hip/gable, basic hard sharp lines, smooth stucco, etc. Not that all new builds are that way, but some large builders have added modern designs and smaller builders are in-filling with them. In the meantime, I've watched a couple 8-10k sqft warehouse spaces errected with tilt wall construction. Rather than basic boxes, they added some accent pieces that create architectural appeal, overhangs, and accent walls when painted to contrast, all made out of the poured tilt wall thickness and erected in the same manner. I've researched enough to realize the biggest hold up on residential is ensuring there is a large enough slab to pour the walls on, or if not that casting beds of thin concrete must fit around the perimeter of the build site to cast and tilt in rather than out (wasted expense I'm sure). I doubt it would be possible to build a small house 100% with tilt wall, but it seems an efficiently designed plan could be made to build the largest walls as tilt wall and stitch together with either block or formed concrete. I've found a builder or two in other states that say they do it, but has anyone here looked into it? I'm sure the architecture firm I've connected with could tell me what it costs, but I'm more so looking for personal experience. Thanks all!

Russell Holmes

OP

Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

Benefits I feel tilt wall would have: quicker "shell" construction, potentially less settlement/cracking issues, exterior finishing could be as simple as paint, could potentially be sold as a premium to concrete block since walls would be solid concrete. Potential drawbacks: crane rental costs kill a currently unknown amount of labor cost savings, experienced tilt wall crews likely only build large commercial buildings. If single family was too small and technical to work, I wonder about a tilt wall quadplex.

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Nik Moushon

Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes

7y

I'm not from FL, just a disclaimer, but I dont think it would be economical at all. Tilt wall construction is only considered cheap because of the sheer scale of what it is mostly used for, which is giant warehouse type structures. It is definitely possible to do but for one time builds I doubt it would be cheaper than any method thats out there for SFH. Now if you were doing a 3 story apartment building, for example, then I think that is something you could consider because of the size. The one thing I'm not sure about with tilt construction is how floor connections are made with the exterior walls. I'm almost positive that any floor system would have to either be self-supported on the inside of the building (basically a building inside a building) or would require some steel work for ledgers and hangers to be bolted to the face on the exterior walls. I havent designed with this type of construction before so I'm just going off of what I've seen done so dont quote me on this lol.

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Russell Holmes

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Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Nik Moushon ok that makes a lot of sense. The ability to pre-cast textures, openings, etc seems like a great benefit, but your points likely outweigh those. It would be interesting to look at for a larger multi. Another more off the wall thing I've just started to see is concrete printed structures (thank you Facebook algorithms knowing I'm a RE nerd). I'm sure it's years from economic feasibility, but could be a game changer. There's a 3d printed bridge in existence where every structural piece was printed with hollow support structure and companies working on small printed houses that look like cool little adobe huts. Basically it's just a computer controlled concrete slurry nozel that builds structures with successive passes of a 1-2" flattened bead of concrete. Again for a one off it would be ridiculous, but could be a new age of kit houses that are printed on-site either whole or in assembled parts by a truck based CNC pump truck.

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Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Russell Holmes:

Benefits I feel tilt wall would have: quicker "shell" construction, potentially less settlement/cracking issues, exterior finishing could be as simple as paint, could potentially be sold as a premium to concrete block since walls would be solid concrete.

Potential drawbacks: crane rental costs kill a currently unknown amount of labor cost savings, experienced tilt wall crews likely only build large commercial buildings.

If single family was too small and technical to work, I wonder about a tilt wall quadplex.

Tilt wall can be cheaper or it can be more. You need to find a contractor that specializes in it though. Many things can go wrong if they don't know what they are doing. The second floor plates are done by steel embeds that have 4 or more studs that is set into the wet concrete. If the concrete is poured when it is cold (maybe not so much your concern as to where you live) and then welded on later it can crack. I have heard good things through the grapevine about Woodland Tilt Up somewhere around Port St Lucie. I don't know anyone there and I am not affiliated but I am in the construction business in Texas. Word gets around. Wouldn't hurt to give them a call or do a Google search for near you to get an idea of what it would take for residential.

Tilt wall is awesome though. Have you thought about SIP's? They withstand hurricane force winds and are easier to install than tilt up.

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Russell Holmes

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Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Mike Reynolds thank you for the feedback! And to be honest I had to Google SIPs to see what they were. I believe I have seen them used but I don't think I realized they were fully structural. The images I saw on quick search has OSB outer layers but I read that it can be sheet metal, concrete board or others. Non-wood exterior is a huge plus here with humidity, rain, and wood destroying insects in lovely Florida :). It looks like you could build the entire structure, roof and all, with them? Would it also replace need for trusses? I'm curious if they'd meet FL hurricane code but I don't see why not. What is your experience on cost compared to traditional methods? And to be clear I have no issue with normal concrete block with wood framed walls and trusses, my house is built that way and I bought it intentionally after seeing my Dad work feverishly to keep a wood framed home free from rot over 25+ years. I'm just curious of other methods that may be relevant.

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Nik Moushon

Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes

7y

SIPs can be a great alternative, though like you said wood as hits downsides in FL. But they can be very strong, structurally. I have designed and built with SIPs before. I personally built a house with SIPs on the gulf coast in Pass Christian MS. They are extremely easy to install. We had walls and roof up in two days and that was with the first floor 16 ft off the ground.

I haven't heard of SIPs with any sheathing except wood but it's been a while since I've looked into it.

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Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Russell Holmes:

@Mike Reynolds thank you for the feedback!

And to be honest I had to Google SIPs to see what they were. I believe I have seen them used but I don't think I realized they were fully structural. The images I saw on quick search has OSB outer layers but I read that it can be sheet metal, concrete board or others. Non-wood exterior is a huge plus here with humidity, rain, and wood destroying insects in lovely Florida :). It looks like you could build the entire structure, roof and all, with them? Would it also replace need for trusses? I'm curious if they'd meet FL hurricane code but I don't see why not. What is your experience on cost compared to traditional methods? And to be clear I have no issue with normal concrete block with wood framed walls and trusses, my house is built that way and I bought it intentionally after seeing my Dad work feverishly to keep a wood framed home free from rot over 25+ years. I'm just curious of other methods that may be relevant.

Here is what I think. Tilt wall is awesome and has its place. Maybe not in residential but who knows? Ross Perot went to over 50 banks to get a loan on the first commercial consumer computer. I have done a few tilt walls. But they were CVS and smaller type commercial buildings. SIP's are evolved more for residential. Some of the first SIPS's I recall were made in Florida by a company that wanted something fast to build and hurricane "proof"? I will have to Google that as I haven't seen it in years. I remember they shot a 2x4 out of a cannon at 120 mph and it didn't penetrate the inside. I was asleep mostly in physics class so I don't know how fast the correlates as to the distance shot from the cannon. I'm sure it wasn't point blank. But they did it from the same distance to a conventional frame and it went through the first wall and into the second on the other side.

The thing I really like about SIP's is you can dry one in about 3-5 days depending on the size. You can supply your own plans and they can engineer it to your needs. According to the company that is.

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Russell Holmes

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Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Mike Reynolds oh wow, that is great! I will definitely be looking into SIPs more as it sounds like it could be a viable method for strong and efficient homes while still being profitable for the investor/developer. Also since 'custom' design isn't necessarily a priority of building investment properties either for sale or hold, be they starter homes or rentals, I'd be curious if there are pre-made plans that could be state approved by a structural engineer and then quickly built, saving the custom design costs.

You've given me my next rabbit hole of research to dive into!

@Jay Hinrichs have you done any SIP structure development or have an opinion about it?

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

7y

not exactly sure what your describing I have never seen a home built in the areas I work with block only in FLA.

but for design.. look at these

The Village at Rand Road in Hood River Oregon ( google it) I built those 24 homes and I think they are cool so would be interested to get your take.. and in Hood river its like were you live we have to build for 125 mile winds. that area can get 100 mile an hour winds in the winter..

look at 8 woodal ct in Charleston SC see what you think of that one.. we built it last year.

Look at 20 F st Charleston it fresh and new on the market..

I think those are designs like your talking about.

now keep in mind we are dealing with postage stamp lots in Oregon and Charleston so skinny vertical is how we get sq ft. Other than the massive foundations in Hood river because of wind and the raising the houses in Charleston because of flood.. they are stick built.

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Account Closed

Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes

7y

@Russell Holmes love the idea. Really, I looked into this, for sfr and REALLY want to try it. I found that the walls can be poured one on top of the other using a non-stick spray in between so your perimeter problem would be solved. From what I’ve seen, pier footings are poured low in the footings, then the rest of the footing is poured around and below the wall after leveling. Ledger grooves are made on walls for subfloors etc. then I think you could just put a flat roof over the top and canteliever the waves over a bit. It seems like price would be cut down majorly, but you’d need to cut costs by getting your own contractor to pour walls on site vs. ordering precast walls from a shop. Seems much stronger as you can easily add tons more rebar, and would cut down all the ridiculous time spent on siding and drywall.

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Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Russell Holmes:

@Mike Reynolds oh wow, that is great! I will definitely be looking into SIPs more as it sounds like it could be a viable method for strong and efficient homes while still being profitable for the investor/developer. Also since 'custom' design isn't necessarily a priority of building investment properties either for sale or hold, be they starter homes or rentals, I'd be curious if there are pre-made plans that could be state approved by a structural engineer and then quickly built, saving the custom design costs.

You've given me my next rabbit hole of research to dive into!

@Jay Hinrichs have you done any SIP structure development or have an opinion about it?

Yes, there are many SIP contractors in Florida with pre-designed plans. Or there used to be that I recall. They even have some do it yourself ones if you are energetic.

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Russell Holmes

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Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Jay Hinrichs thanks for the reply! I looked up the Village at Rand Road as well as the other two addresses and looked through pictures with my wife. Beautiful job on every single one and she was in awe. Those are pretty much the style I'm referencing as well. Around here they may throw in a smooth stucco finish on a portion of the home and often put a large porch or garage attached to the tall and narrow home. Our area is one with older homes on an acre or more but newer developments typically building on 0.15-0.25 acre lots. 1/3 and 1/2 acre lots are actually a premium 'feature' in some developments. Buyers tend to want yard space and sqft while being ok with small lots, so it works for similar reasons. I saw one of yours was on a 0.07 acre lot.....wow! Most are at least double that here.

Here's one that was just built on a subdivided lot in an area of restored 1920s-1940s houses (70 S Central Ave, Apopka FL). The roads are still 100+ year old brick which forces you to drive slowly and enjoy the architecture. The city wants to repave portions and the residents protest. The older houses all have a cool eclectic varied style, so it works well even though it stands out as modern. This one is on a 7500sf lot. The builder built one identical to it over near the beach, and liked the end result enough to do another inland down the street from his house. I met him when I went to see the house and he had ridden his riding lawn mower down from his house two blocks away to mow it. They're a little high on price and there are some odd things I may have done a bit differently, but it's cool in its own way.

For those of you reading who may not google the addresses Jay gave above (you really should to look at all the pictures) here are a few teasers of the properties Jay is talking about:

One of the first property images I found in The Village at Rand Road:

20 F St

8 Woodall Ct:

I'd say you definitely know how to maximize your build envelope Jay! Those houses are gorgeous. What was the time span from ground breaking to selling the last of the 24 homes in The Village?

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Russell Holmes

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Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Account Closed on site fabrication seems to be one of the biggest benefits. I hadn't heard of pouring walls on top of each other and thought you may have to do them in phases. But with the right design I think it would be really cool as well!

There are a hundred or so of these cool little mid-80s houses built in clusers around Apopka that are all about 950-1100 sqft. So far I haven't seen a build date for one outside of 1984-1987, but they cranked those suckers out in those years.

I've bid on two for buyers that have come to market as they are perfect size for good value per sf and rent numbers while being old enough to be thoroughly tenant abused and discounted. They are oddly joisted wood frame homes built on concrete block perimeter foundations. Most homes with joisted floors here are on pier & beam with open crawl space. Something of this style with a few intersecting single plane pitched roofs, but in a larger scale may be interesting for either tilt wall or SIP. Even though these houses were tiny, the high ceilings and high windows made them feel large. I loved the basic geometry of the designs as well, as if the architect only had two or three shapes to work with.

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Russell Holmes

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Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Mike Reynolds excellent, I'm going to look into this more! Thank you for the insight!!

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Russell Holmes

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Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

Here's another new construction modern one I've passed as it was being completed in the upscale Orwin Manor neighborhood of Winter Park with mostly mid-century homes existing. The junker ones get flattened to build things like this. This one is listed at over $700k and is just over 3000sf.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

7y

@Russell Holmes Rand road we built those out in about 18 months.. the one you pictured was our WIDE homes LOL

the modern design is being used in many cities these days.. there is a lot of it for instance in the infill areas of INDY as well I have some going there..

Charleston we have a really good body of work on both Charleston style and moderns.. the one on woodal is only 1700 sq ft and I sold that for 640k in less than a week on the market.

Rand road of course was a PUD were we controlled all the houses.

In Charleston I have seen some pre fab builders were the home comes in a box basically and is erected in 14 days or so.

there is a development called Hunley Waters that you can google. those are all pre fabs.

thanks for posting the pictures I cant figure out how to do that.. I have to get my Grand daughter over here to help me .

Although I finally broke down and am creating my first website for myself.. it will have all our projects on it so I will in the very near future be able to just give a web address..

our latest project we are closing in Dec 90 lots in PDX will have a combination of modern farm house and traditional we might throw in some moderns.. but its a little more of a rural area.. so the modern farm house seems to fit.

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Jonathan Landry

Contractor · Candler, NC · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 15 votes

7y

I scanned the thread and did not see anyone mention precast - Superior Walls or similar products. they are a precast wall panel with reinforced concrete studs and "wrapped" with insulation. In the mountains we use them for basements but I have seen literature with people using them for main level and stacked living spaces in Florida.

https://www.superiorwalls.com/

The advantages that we see are the reduced number of "man hours" on the jobsite to completion of the foundation. Grading contractor digs a "hole" in the ground for one large footing> a drain line is placed around the perimeter> inspection> fill with gravel> final grade and tamp. Set walls. We are setting foundations in one weeks time with all conditions being optimal vs digging footings, inspection, pour footing, lay block, etc

Finally, the permeable footing allows water to drain to daylight and avoid wet basements.

This 32x20 basement was placed in less than 2 hours. Started excavating on Monday, walls went in on Friday afternoon. Plumber was roughing in on the following Monday morning. We do a few small ones a year and have completed large jobs with plenty of interior and exterior corners and always happy with the finished product.

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Jim Adrian

Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes

7y

I use cmu and precast wall panels all day long in my daily life as an architect. Precast will run you around $18- $22 (in my region) per sq ft of wall area for just a plain gray insulated panel with a light sandblast finish. You want a siding look to it, ok add a form liner, want colored concrete or need white Portland cement, these are all extra. You can figure $30 per sf of wall for a starting point for a nice architectural panel. Crane rental extra. Transportation cost can kill you as well. Now its no long price competitive for a house. For comparison brick veneer with cmu back wall will run you around $25 a sf of wall area.

You really need to be 30 ft tall with panels and have the same size panels to drive the cost down. Precast panels are limited to a 10 wide panel spacing. You may find 12' panels but not common. You are limited on where windows and doors are placed within each panel. Erection time is fast, no doubt about that.

I have a 60,000 sq ft building going up right now and did this in about 3 weeks. I did a little 1000 sf building in the middle of Wyoming and did a cost estimate on cmu, precast and insulated concrete forms (fox block) and cmu was cheaper by far.

I typically work with Core Slabs https://www.coreslab.com/

I have done a precast concrete modular home (double wide) in florida in the everglades, Flamingo NPS. Here is the company that bought out the mfr we used for the project.

http://www.metromont.com/multi-family

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Jonathan Landry

Contractor · Candler, NC · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 15 votes

7y

@Jim Adrian sounds like those panels work well for commercial & industrial buildings. With the Superior Walls I mentioned above, we have a cast in place foundation with insulation and metal studs ready for drywall @ $12-15 SF set in place. We use the prefab interior studs as an upsell.

Labor is our biggest costs at the moment and good help is even more costly these days. Taking the extra men off of the site and a quicker foundation in place are the win for us

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Jim Adrian

Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes

7y

@Jonathan Landry

Metal studs is the last thing I want in a waste water treatment facility. Chemicals and h2s gases will eat the metal studs alive in a very short time. I have seen hollow metal doors rusting in 2 years time.

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Russell Holmes

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Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Jay Hinrichs 18 months, wow, that is incredible! Funny too that I picked a 'wide' model. Those Hunley Waters homes look to lack some character compared to some of your referenced builds, but I can see them being a hit if the price point is right.

I can't say that I have tracked every project you've done, but over the time I've been on BP, I've always loved hearing the broad range of projects you have tackled and how you offer insight from those projects to everyone you can. I look forward to a website to be able to see all of your work.

To upload a picture here, you can click on the word "image" under the text box you type in. It'll bring up a prompt to upload an image file from your computer (you can save most images online by right-clicking and choosing save as). If it doesn't prompt you to 'choose file', pop-ups may be blocked. You can tell your browser to trust Bigger Pockets and allow pop ups there only, but that would probably be easiest as a task for your granddaughter as all browsers vary and I get frustrated trying to change settings myself. As always, thanks for the input!

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Russell Holmes

OP

Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Jonathan Landry thanks for your input too! I don't believe I realized they made precast wall sections for residential building. There's a lot of highway work in my area and a couple concrete plants pumping out as many precast beams parts as they can, but hadn't considered it on a smaller scale. Do you find that the proximity of your build site to where they are produced plays a major part in cost? I'd imagine a semi truck can only haul a handful of panels? Very interesting material. While we don't have basements here typically, I've seen some really nice farmhouse style homes built on a hill with a walk-out basement overlooking a view of water or wildlife.

It sounds like there is significant time saved in building out the basements in that method. What would you say the total cost savings is over a traditionally built basement? or is it comparable or more? I'd imagine the end result is more structurally sound than hand laid block.

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Russell Holmes

OP

Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

7y

@Jim Adrian Thank you for the cost breakdown as well as some of the extreme limitations of trying to do something small and technical/varied with precast. It seems like the perfect material for large uniform buildings, but the restrictions would require far too many restraints on smaller structure design.

How did the precast concrete modular home work? I know wood frame modular double wides would come as two shipments of 'half of a house' that connect together with all systems in place. But with concrete I imagine that would be too heavy so it was probably more parts to ship and assemble.

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Jonathan Landry

Contractor · Candler, NC · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 15 votes

7y

@Russell Holmes I’m not sure of the costs comparison because I’ve never built a traditional block basement. When I have compared the numbers with my father in law, gc as well, it looks more expensive on the face but when considering the panels are insulated and don’t require wood framing. Quicker setup. Logistically it it costs significantly less. For round numbers on the pictures posted above. 104 LF of 9 ft panels @ $12k Materials $9k. Transportation, crane, setup $3k. Our local fabricator/installer is about 1.5 hrs away. Check out this video for above grade applications in the south https://youtu.be/64qN1j_7X0o

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Jim Adrian

Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes

7y

Originally posted by @Russell Holmes:

@Jim Adrian Thank you for the cost breakdown as well as some of the extreme limitations of trying to do something small and technical/varied with precast. It seems like the perfect material for large uniform buildings, but the restrictions would require far too many restraints on smaller structure design.

How did the precast concrete modular home work? I know wood frame modular double wides would come as two shipments of 'half of a house' that connect together with all systems in place. But with concrete I imagine that would be too heavy so it was probably more parts to ship and assemble.

It was shipped to the site via semi just like a wood modular trailer. NPS handled most of the construction admin so I didn't see a whole lot of it. It was lifted into place with crane and sat on a 12' high pier system due to tidal waves requirements. We did 2 buildings for seasonal staff workers. They looked pretty nice when all said and done. This a 2br / 2 ba, kitchen, living room, and screen porch. Also handicap accessible via ramp.

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Anyone building new construction with tilt-wall?

Anyone building new construction with tilt-wall?

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