WTF is wrong with investors these days?
Engelo RumoraBusiness Member
Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votesWTF is wrong with investors these days?
Most Popular Reply
Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votesEngelo Good Morning !
I would like to take a stab at this.
I suspect a lot of these folks reaching out to you read BP forums.
And such they like the thought of infinite returns and are OK with max leverage etc.
So keep in mind BP folks are reading the BRRR books and building their Core 4 which has been coined by the folks who man the podcast and wrote a book on remote BRRR ( one of the absolute Riskiest endeavors one can take in real estate by the way).
So to that extent they are reaching out to you to build the Core 4 you just happen to have all 4 of the Core under one roof.
This IMHO is why your getting calls like this. Or e mail requests like this.
Your thoughts ?
261 Replies
- 2yMelanie P.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 922 votes
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
- Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes2yYou should have maybe inroduced yourself and not opened by shilling. But we all know....
Quote from @Dave Hagen:
And how many posts am I suppose to have after 2 weeks here?Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Dave Hagen:
Glad I could stir the hornet's nest.
First, I didn't say you were suppose to be anybody's entire education, or source of leads. But everybody has their own way of learning, talking, and getting things done. I can, and do, read books, watch YouTube videos, and try to come to an educated opinion on how to proceed. Others jump in, head first, and learn from their own mistakes. I'd rather learn from other's mistakes. But while I'm taking time to get informed, others are getting things done. And while you can't compare someone who is trying to get free advice and leads to someone trying to sell you on their services, both are plunging ahead.
And what is the matter with, if you are in turnkey solutions, someone asking if you have any leads on other deals? You can't pass along something you may have come across, and weren't interested, to someone else who might run with it?
Again, I'm not asking you to be their entire solution. But in the time it takes to insult someone and get rid of them, you might have been able to give your two sentence pitch on why they are wrong for not considering your services, and how you benefit the deal. If you aren't a salesman, and don't want to be bothered, then I can understand why you would drop the conversation as soon as you can. Go for the easy stuff. The people who know what they're doing.
And I also didn't say that you should take over their decision making and put in an entire business plan for them. If there weren't a variety of ways to profitably have a REI career, most investors would fail. Because not every method works for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you (the "you" being anyone that disagrees with me... haha) were a beginner, starting out, and learned everything from books and didn't make any mistakes. We all have different personalities that affect how we deal with life. I don't demand anybody change. Just offering my opinions and challenging anyone to consider if a different approach may find business and profit where they never considered before.
And here is my Lamborghini / dream:
8 posts. Really?
- Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekend - Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes2y
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
- Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products. - Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes2y
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products.They are still scum!
- Huntsville, AL · Member since 2018 · 579 posts · 864 votes2y
@Engelo Rumora - thanks for starting this thread - has been highly entertaining and a fun read
@Dave Hagen - you've asked some fair questions. Now, I am a W2 guy, and not in real estate full time by any stretch, but know enough to be dangerous since I've been at this since 2017 and have done my fair share of deals. So I'll give you some direct responses:
Your first paragraph: "First, I didn't say you were suppose to be anybody's entire education, or source of leads. But everybody has their own way of learning, talking, and getting things done. I can, and do, read books, watch YouTube videos, and try to come to an educated opinion on how to proceed. Others jump in, head first, and learn from their own mistakes. I'd rather learn from other's mistakes. But while I'm taking time to get informed, others are getting things done. And while you can't compare someone who is trying to get free advice and leads to someone trying to sell you on their services, both are plunging ahead."
Answer - you openly admit you've spent your time and energy to educate yourself. Excellent. The majority of new investors have not. Otherwise, we wouldn't see new BP threads like "Should I do an LLC", "I have 10k and don't know what to do", "I wrote an offer - now what?". I never look at these threads. Why? Because seven million of them already exist on BP, and if the poster took 15 minutes to use the magical search function, they can get their answers. But legit questions that are "higher level" or questions specific to my area or experience, for example, I am happy to hazard a response, because I've learned a lot from BP, and will pay it forward to real investors, not someone who's bored on a Saturday and will never buy an investment property in their existence.
Your second paragraph: "And what is the matter with, if you are in turnkey solutions, someone asking if you have any leads on other deals? You can't pass along something you may have come across, and weren't interested, to someone else who might run with it?"Answer - Why in the world would I pass a lead along to someone I don't know, don't trust, and/or haven't done business with? Zero chance. We have gotten leads on off-market properties that don't work for us for various reasons - so what do we do? We reach out to other investors and/or wholesalers we know from previous dealings and pass the lead along to them. That's how networking works.
Last paragraph: "I also must have missed the part where you (the "you" being anyone that disagrees with me... haha) were a beginner, starting out, and learned everything from books and didn't make any mistakes. We all have different personalities that affect how we deal with life. I don't demand anybody change. Just offering my opinions and challenging anyone to consider if a different approach may find business and profit where they never considered before."
Answer - when I started in 2017, I didn't come here and ask for handouts. I took my time to read the boards, SEARCH for the information I needed, and educate myself. Ultimately, we bought our first rental, which I learned more from than anyone here could have taught me. My "mistakes" with this property are what allowed me to be more successful with each subsequent property. But most of the new investors on here never take the step of buying a property; so spending time educating someone who will never take that first step anyway - well, it's not a prudent use of time.Best wishes on your investing future.
- 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products.They are still scum!
But very smart Scum decamp to Portugal while the golden visa was still in play ( I am guessing) know they cant get sued there and just continue to do their thing on U tube and still market properties in the US making fee's illegally just like they did before.. I was just in Portugal and its not like they had to run to Mexico or Belize. Thats a very nice beautiful country that many Americans are now living in.. Criminal intent Criminal mind. - My favorite question; "Hi, how do I flip a house"
Quote from @Michael S.:
@Engelo Rumora - thanks for starting this thread - has been highly entertaining and a fun read
@Dave Hagen - you've asked some fair questions. Now, I am a W2 guy, and not in real estate full time by any stretch, but know enough to be dangerous since I've been at this since 2017 and have done my fair share of deals. So I'll give you some direct responses:
Your first paragraph: "First, I didn't say you were suppose to be anybody's entire education, or source of leads. But everybody has their own way of learning, talking, and getting things done. I can, and do, read books, watch YouTube videos, and try to come to an educated opinion on how to proceed. Others jump in, head first, and learn from their own mistakes. I'd rather learn from other's mistakes. But while I'm taking time to get informed, others are getting things done. And while you can't compare someone who is trying to get free advice and leads to someone trying to sell you on their services, both are plunging ahead."
Answer - you openly admit you've spent your time and energy to educate yourself. Excellent. The majority of new investors have not. Otherwise, we wouldn't see new BP threads like "Should I do an LLC", "I have 10k and don't know what to do", "I wrote an offer - now what?". I never look at these threads. Why? Because seven million of them already exist on BP, and if the poster took 15 minutes to use the magical search function, they can get their answers. But legit questions that are "higher level" or questions specific to my area or experience, for example, I am happy to hazard a response, because I've learned a lot from BP, and will pay it forward to real investors, not someone who's bored on a Saturday and will never buy an investment property in their existence.
Your second paragraph: "And what is the matter with, if you are in turnkey solutions, someone asking if you have any leads on other deals? You can't pass along something you may have come across, and weren't interested, to someone else who might run with it?"Answer - Why in the world would I pass a lead along to someone I don't know, don't trust, and/or haven't done business with? Zero chance. We have gotten leads on off-market properties that don't work for us for various reasons - so what do we do? We reach out to other investors and/or wholesalers we know from previous dealings and pass the lead along to them. That's how networking works.
Last paragraph: "I also must have missed the part where you (the "you" being anyone that disagrees with me... haha) were a beginner, starting out, and learned everything from books and didn't make any mistakes. We all have different personalities that affect how we deal with life. I don't demand anybody change. Just offering my opinions and challenging anyone to consider if a different approach may find business and profit where they never considered before."
Answer - when I started in 2017, I didn't come here and ask for handouts. I took my time to read the boards, SEARCH for the information I needed, and educate myself. Ultimately, we bought our first rental, which I learned more from than anyone here could have taught me. My "mistakes" with this property are what allowed me to be more successful with each subsequent property. But most of the new investors on here never take the step of buying a property; so spending time educating someone who will never take that first step anyway - well, it's not a prudent use of time.Best wishes on your investing future.
- 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Alan F.:
My favorite question; "Hi, how do I flip a house"Quote from @Michael S.:
@Engelo Rumora - thanks for starting this thread - has been highly entertaining and a fun read
@Dave Hagen - you've asked some fair questions. Now, I am a W2 guy, and not in real estate full time by any stretch, but know enough to be dangerous since I've been at this since 2017 and have done my fair share of deals. So I'll give you some direct responses:
Your first paragraph: "First, I didn't say you were suppose to be anybody's entire education, or source of leads. But everybody has their own way of learning, talking, and getting things done. I can, and do, read books, watch YouTube videos, and try to come to an educated opinion on how to proceed. Others jump in, head first, and learn from their own mistakes. I'd rather learn from other's mistakes. But while I'm taking time to get informed, others are getting things done. And while you can't compare someone who is trying to get free advice and leads to someone trying to sell you on their services, both are plunging ahead."
Answer - you openly admit you've spent your time and energy to educate yourself. Excellent. The majority of new investors have not. Otherwise, we wouldn't see new BP threads like "Should I do an LLC", "I have 10k and don't know what to do", "I wrote an offer - now what?". I never look at these threads. Why? Because seven million of them already exist on BP, and if the poster took 15 minutes to use the magical search function, they can get their answers. But legit questions that are "higher level" or questions specific to my area or experience, for example, I am happy to hazard a response, because I've learned a lot from BP, and will pay it forward to real investors, not someone who's bored on a Saturday and will never buy an investment property in their existence.
Your second paragraph: "And what is the matter with, if you are in turnkey solutions, someone asking if you have any leads on other deals? You can't pass along something you may have come across, and weren't interested, to someone else who might run with it?"Answer - Why in the world would I pass a lead along to someone I don't know, don't trust, and/or haven't done business with? Zero chance. We have gotten leads on off-market properties that don't work for us for various reasons - so what do we do? We reach out to other investors and/or wholesalers we know from previous dealings and pass the lead along to them. That's how networking works.
Last paragraph: "I also must have missed the part where you (the "you" being anyone that disagrees with me... haha) were a beginner, starting out, and learned everything from books and didn't make any mistakes. We all have different personalities that affect how we deal with life. I don't demand anybody change. Just offering my opinions and challenging anyone to consider if a different approach may find business and profit where they never considered before."
Answer - when I started in 2017, I didn't come here and ask for handouts. I took my time to read the boards, SEARCH for the information I needed, and educate myself. Ultimately, we bought our first rental, which I learned more from than anyone here could have taught me. My "mistakes" with this property are what allowed me to be more successful with each subsequent property. But most of the new investors on here never take the step of buying a property; so spending time educating someone who will never take that first step anyway - well, it's not a prudent use of time.Best wishes on your investing future.
Or they own not one property and are all focused in on Asset protection. - Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Michael S.:
@Engelo Rumora - thanks for starting this thread - has been highly entertaining and a fun read
@Dave Hagen - you've asked some fair questions. Now, I am a W2 guy, and not in real estate full time by any stretch, but know enough to be dangerous since I've been at this since 2017 and have done my fair share of deals. So I'll give you some direct responses:
Your first paragraph: "First, I didn't say you were suppose to be anybody's entire education, or source of leads. But everybody has their own way of learning, talking, and getting things done. I can, and do, read books, watch YouTube videos, and try to come to an educated opinion on how to proceed. Others jump in, head first, and learn from their own mistakes. I'd rather learn from other's mistakes. But while I'm taking time to get informed, others are getting things done. And while you can't compare someone who is trying to get free advice and leads to someone trying to sell you on their services, both are plunging ahead."
Answer - you openly admit you've spent your time and energy to educate yourself. Excellent. The majority of new investors have not. Otherwise, we wouldn't see new BP threads like "Should I do an LLC", "I have 10k and don't know what to do", "I wrote an offer - now what?". I never look at these threads. Why? Because seven million of them already exist on BP, and if the poster took 15 minutes to use the magical search function, they can get their answers. But legit questions that are "higher level" or questions specific to my area or experience, for example, I am happy to hazard a response, because I've learned a lot from BP, and will pay it forward to real investors, not someone who's bored on a Saturday and will never buy an investment property in their existence.
Your second paragraph: "And what is the matter with, if you are in turnkey solutions, someone asking if you have any leads on other deals? You can't pass along something you may have come across, and weren't interested, to someone else who might run with it?"Answer - Why in the world would I pass a lead along to someone I don't know, don't trust, and/or haven't done business with? Zero chance. We have gotten leads on off-market properties that don't work for us for various reasons - so what do we do? We reach out to other investors and/or wholesalers we know from previous dealings and pass the lead along to them. That's how networking works.
Last paragraph: "I also must have missed the part where you (the "you" being anyone that disagrees with me... haha) were a beginner, starting out, and learned everything from books and didn't make any mistakes. We all have different personalities that affect how we deal with life. I don't demand anybody change. Just offering my opinions and challenging anyone to consider if a different approach may find business and profit where they never considered before."
Answer - when I started in 2017, I didn't come here and ask for handouts. I took my time to read the boards, SEARCH for the information I needed, and educate myself. Ultimately, we bought our first rental, which I learned more from than anyone here could have taught me. My "mistakes" with this property are what allowed me to be more successful with each subsequent property. But most of the new investors on here never take the step of buying a property; so spending time educating someone who will never take that first step anyway - well, it's not a prudent use of time.Best wishes on your investing future.
Thanks mate and it was my pleasure.
I'm glad it got as much traction as it did
Keep the dream alive 👍🙏
- Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products.They are still scum!
But very smart Scum decamp to Portugal while the golden visa was still in play ( I am guessing) know they cant get sued there and just continue to do their thing on U tube and still market properties in the US making fee's illegally just like they did before.. I was just in Portugal and its not like they had to run to Mexico or Belize. Thats a very nice beautiful country that many Americans are now living in.. Criminal intent Criminal mind.You saved my A$$ mate by telling me "get out" and we where printing money at the time...
Had no clue how bad it was until your call.
Believe it or not, the Fed's contacted me not too long ago regarding the fiasco.
Great to see those guys still going after it 6-7+ years later
- 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products.They are still scum!
But very smart Scum decamp to Portugal while the golden visa was still in play ( I am guessing) know they cant get sued there and just continue to do their thing on U tube and still market properties in the US making fee's illegally just like they did before.. I was just in Portugal and its not like they had to run to Mexico or Belize. Thats a very nice beautiful country that many Americans are now living in.. Criminal intent Criminal mind.You saved my A$$ mate by telling me "get out" and we where printing money at the time...
Had no clue how bad it was until your call.
Believe it or not, the Fed's contacted me not too long ago regarding the fiasco.
Great to see those guys still going after it 6-7+ years later
Well I take care of my favorites :) I was very active in Indy at the time and saw the cluster going on there and you just dont want to get painted with his brush.. Its hard to believe in my mind there are still US companies allowing him to pitch their deals.. must be hard up. - Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products.They are still scum!
But very smart Scum decamp to Portugal while the golden visa was still in play ( I am guessing) know they cant get sued there and just continue to do their thing on U tube and still market properties in the US making fee's illegally just like they did before.. I was just in Portugal and its not like they had to run to Mexico or Belize. Thats a very nice beautiful country that many Americans are now living in.. Criminal intent Criminal mind.You saved my A$$ mate by telling me "get out" and we where printing money at the time...
Had no clue how bad it was until your call.
Believe it or not, the Fed's contacted me not too long ago regarding the fiasco.
Great to see those guys still going after it 6-7+ years later
Well I take care of my favorites :) I was very active in Indy at the time and saw the cluster going on there and you just dont want to get painted with his brush.. Its hard to believe in my mind there are still US companies allowing him to pitch their deals.. must be hard up.
Yeah mate,
It was hard walking away from the $$$ but then again, you know me and how much I care about reputation.
Takes a lifetime to build a reputation and only 1 wrong move to loose it.
You even have to worry about what your partners are up to and not just worry about your own operation.
Like driving a car, you won't necessarily crash if you are negligible so you have to keep your eye on other drivers also lol
Crazy world we live in mate Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Michael S.:
@Engelo Rumora - thanks for starting this thread - has been highly entertaining and a fun read
@Dave Hagen - you've asked some fair questions. Now, I am a W2 guy, and not in real estate full time by any stretch, but know enough to be dangerous since I've been at this since 2017 and have done my fair share of deals. So I'll give you some direct responses:
Your first paragraph: "First, I didn't say you were suppose to be anybody's entire education, or source of leads. But everybody has their own way of learning, talking, and getting things done. I can, and do, read books, watch YouTube videos, and try to come to an educated opinion on how to proceed. Others jump in, head first, and learn from their own mistakes. I'd rather learn from other's mistakes. But while I'm taking time to get informed, others are getting things done. And while you can't compare someone who is trying to get free advice and leads to someone trying to sell you on their services, both are plunging ahead."
Answer - you openly admit you've spent your time and energy to educate yourself. Excellent. The majority of new investors have not. Otherwise, we wouldn't see new BP threads like "Should I do an LLC", "I have 10k and don't know what to do", "I wrote an offer - now what?". I never look at these threads. Why? Because seven million of them already exist on BP, and if the poster took 15 minutes to use the magical search function, they can get their answers. But legit questions that are "higher level" or questions specific to my area or experience, for example, I am happy to hazard a response, because I've learned a lot from BP, and will pay it forward to real investors, not someone who's bored on a Saturday and will never buy an investment property in their existence.
Your second paragraph: "And what is the matter with, if you are in turnkey solutions, someone asking if you have any leads on other deals? You can't pass along something you may have come across, and weren't interested, to someone else who might run with it?"Answer - Why in the world would I pass a lead along to someone I don't know, don't trust, and/or haven't done business with? Zero chance. We have gotten leads on off-market properties that don't work for us for various reasons - so what do we do? We reach out to other investors and/or wholesalers we know from previous dealings and pass the lead along to them. That's how networking works.
Last paragraph: "I also must have missed the part where you (the "you" being anyone that disagrees with me... haha) were a beginner, starting out, and learned everything from books and didn't make any mistakes. We all have different personalities that affect how we deal with life. I don't demand anybody change. Just offering my opinions and challenging anyone to consider if a different approach may find business and profit where they never considered before."
Answer - when I started in 2017, I didn't come here and ask for handouts. I took my time to read the boards, SEARCH for the information I needed, and educate myself. Ultimately, we bought our first rental, which I learned more from than anyone here could have taught me. My "mistakes" with this property are what allowed me to be more successful with each subsequent property. But most of the new investors on here never take the step of buying a property; so spending time educating someone who will never take that first step anyway - well, it's not a prudent use of time.Best wishes on your investing future.
Thanks mate and it was my pleasure.
I'm glad it got as much traction as it did
Keep the dream alive 👍🙏
I remember your property dingo posts, great stuff
- Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Alan F.:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Michael S.:
@Engelo Rumora - thanks for starting this thread - has been highly entertaining and a fun read
@Dave Hagen - you've asked some fair questions. Now, I am a W2 guy, and not in real estate full time by any stretch, but know enough to be dangerous since I've been at this since 2017 and have done my fair share of deals. So I'll give you some direct responses:
Your first paragraph: "First, I didn't say you were suppose to be anybody's entire education, or source of leads. But everybody has their own way of learning, talking, and getting things done. I can, and do, read books, watch YouTube videos, and try to come to an educated opinion on how to proceed. Others jump in, head first, and learn from their own mistakes. I'd rather learn from other's mistakes. But while I'm taking time to get informed, others are getting things done. And while you can't compare someone who is trying to get free advice and leads to someone trying to sell you on their services, both are plunging ahead."
Answer - you openly admit you've spent your time and energy to educate yourself. Excellent. The majority of new investors have not. Otherwise, we wouldn't see new BP threads like "Should I do an LLC", "I have 10k and don't know what to do", "I wrote an offer - now what?". I never look at these threads. Why? Because seven million of them already exist on BP, and if the poster took 15 minutes to use the magical search function, they can get their answers. But legit questions that are "higher level" or questions specific to my area or experience, for example, I am happy to hazard a response, because I've learned a lot from BP, and will pay it forward to real investors, not someone who's bored on a Saturday and will never buy an investment property in their existence.
Your second paragraph: "And what is the matter with, if you are in turnkey solutions, someone asking if you have any leads on other deals? You can't pass along something you may have come across, and weren't interested, to someone else who might run with it?"Answer - Why in the world would I pass a lead along to someone I don't know, don't trust, and/or haven't done business with? Zero chance. We have gotten leads on off-market properties that don't work for us for various reasons - so what do we do? We reach out to other investors and/or wholesalers we know from previous dealings and pass the lead along to them. That's how networking works.
Last paragraph: "I also must have missed the part where you (the "you" being anyone that disagrees with me... haha) were a beginner, starting out, and learned everything from books and didn't make any mistakes. We all have different personalities that affect how we deal with life. I don't demand anybody change. Just offering my opinions and challenging anyone to consider if a different approach may find business and profit where they never considered before."
Answer - when I started in 2017, I didn't come here and ask for handouts. I took my time to read the boards, SEARCH for the information I needed, and educate myself. Ultimately, we bought our first rental, which I learned more from than anyone here could have taught me. My "mistakes" with this property are what allowed me to be more successful with each subsequent property. But most of the new investors on here never take the step of buying a property; so spending time educating someone who will never take that first step anyway - well, it's not a prudent use of time.Best wishes on your investing future.
Thanks mate and it was my pleasure.
I'm glad it got as much traction as it did
Keep the dream alive 👍🙏
I remember your property dingo posts, great stuff
haha
Thanks mate
Haven't done a video in forever but very active doing podcast interview's last few months
Not really in the mood to be on camera so much nowadays but might do some from time to time as the year progresses 🙏👍
Quote from @Michael S.:
@Engelo Rumora - thanks for starting this thread - has been highly entertaining and a fun read
@Dave Hagen - you've asked some fair questions. Now, I am a W2 guy, and not in real estate full time by any stretch, but know enough to be dangerous since I've been at this since 2017 and have done my fair share of deals. So I'll give you some direct responses:
Your first paragraph: "First, I didn't say you were suppose to be anybody's entire education, or source of leads. But everybody has their own way of learning, talking, and getting things done. I can, and do, read books, watch YouTube videos, and try to come to an educated opinion on how to proceed. Others jump in, head first, and learn from their own mistakes. I'd rather learn from other's mistakes. But while I'm taking time to get informed, others are getting things done. And while you can't compare someone who is trying to get free advice and leads to someone trying to sell you on their services, both are plunging ahead."
Answer - you openly admit you've spent your time and energy to educate yourself. Excellent. The majority of new investors have not. Otherwise, we wouldn't see new BP threads like "Should I do an LLC", "I have 10k and don't know what to do", "I wrote an offer - now what?". I never look at these threads. Why? Because seven million of them already exist on BP, and if the poster took 15 minutes to use the magical search function, they can get their answers. But legit questions that are "higher level" or questions specific to my area or experience, for example, I am happy to hazard a response, because I've learned a lot from BP, and will pay it forward to real investors, not someone who's bored on a Saturday and will never buy an investment property in their existence.
Your second paragraph: "And what is the matter with, if you are in turnkey solutions, someone asking if you have any leads on other deals? You can't pass along something you may have come across, and weren't interested, to someone else who might run with it?"Answer - Why in the world would I pass a lead along to someone I don't know, don't trust, and/or haven't done business with? Zero chance. We have gotten leads on off-market properties that don't work for us for various reasons - so what do we do? We reach out to other investors and/or wholesalers we know from previous dealings and pass the lead along to them. That's how networking works.
Last paragraph: "I also must have missed the part where you (the "you" being anyone that disagrees with me... haha) were a beginner, starting out, and learned everything from books and didn't make any mistakes. We all have different personalities that affect how we deal with life. I don't demand anybody change. Just offering my opinions and challenging anyone to consider if a different approach may find business and profit where they never considered before."
Answer - when I started in 2017, I didn't come here and ask for handouts. I took my time to read the boards, SEARCH for the information I needed, and educate myself. Ultimately, we bought our first rental, which I learned more from than anyone here could have taught me. My "mistakes" with this property are what allowed me to be more successful with each subsequent property. But most of the new investors on here never take the step of buying a property; so spending time educating someone who will never take that first step anyway - well, it's not a prudent use of time.Best wishes on your investing future.
There is some benefit to helping newbies tho, I get to keep learning thing from all of you. You never know who's quietly learning out there =)
- 2yMelanie P.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 922 votes
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI do not know your business well enough to say for certain, but I strongly suspect that if you developed a strong referral partner for the property management piece you'd be freed up to do additional houses each year, your customers would do better and buy more from you and you'd wind up with the same or higher $$$ at the end of the year.
I agree with you that full turnkey is full turnkey. I've bought turnkey properties over the years and I've never had one come with a tenant I kept and I did not care for the in house PM services. I've also seen a turnkey go out of business cause they started dipping into rents they were holding to fund their flipping. NOT saying this is you at all. Just an anecdote.
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
So I get investors reaching out to me everyday and it goes like this:
"Hi, I know you offer turnkey properties and property management and am interested in the Toledo market, I don't want to buy turnkey but was hoping you could help me find a deal.
Also, do you have any contractor and lender referrals?
I'd also love to work with your property management company"
Diplomacy left me a long time ago so how would you guys reply?
Seems like to me that everyone wants something for nothing nowadays and nobody is willing to put in the work or to pay the margin for someone else that is willing to do the work...
Folks want to "own a monkey", play with the monkey, but not "carry the monkey" or clean it's S#@% when it does one hehe
I guess next time I go to McDonalds, I'll ask them for organic burger buns or where I can find them, I'll bring my own meat paddy and potatoes, get them to make a Big Mac meal for me and maybe I throw some change their way haha
How about those analogies above... lol
Have a great weekend guys and much success with your investing 🙏
1000% agree!! I too am contacted daily, same thing. Hey can you recommend contractors and wholesalers I want value add. Oki so whos is going to run the job for you? Well bob you can, Ok so you want me to find the deals run the job and you make the money. Sure, why don't I just do the job for you for free LOL,
We/ you provide a service to OOS and country buyers. They all think they can go it alone. Do you know how many horror stories I get weekly; I am sure you do as well. They overpaid, got ripped off by a contractor and worse, bought in absolute war zones. At the end of the day sure they can try and run the job online but maybe end up with 5k or so more in equity 100% irrelevant. It takes them months to get a 2-week job done and overpriced, 3k to remove and replace a furnace almost double the real price! So many want things for free. I have one clown, I gave him a property, well sure enough he tried to go around me and buy it. Well, this clown was unaware I was the owner, so he actually called my other number. I played along then smashed him, LOL. He now has a bad rep as I spread his name to the other players in my market. Others try and sell me my own property!!
So many discount what we do, just to try and save a few bux when it ends up costing them, 5, 10 15k, and lots of headaches.
Keep crushing it MY friend.- Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes2y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products.They are still scum!
But very smart Scum decamp to Portugal while the golden visa was still in play ( I am guessing) know they cant get sued there and just continue to do their thing on U tube and still market properties in the US making fee's illegally just like they did before.. I was just in Portugal and its not like they had to run to Mexico or Belize. Thats a very nice beautiful country that many Americans are now living in.. Criminal intent Criminal mind.I know people who could a private rendition and get him to a country with extradition.
- 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products.They are still scum!
But very smart Scum decamp to Portugal while the golden visa was still in play ( I am guessing) know they cant get sued there and just continue to do their thing on U tube and still market properties in the US making fee's illegally just like they did before.. I was just in Portugal and its not like they had to run to Mexico or Belize. Thats a very nice beautiful country that many Americans are now living in.. Criminal intent Criminal mind.I know people who could a private rendition and get him to a country with extradition.
thats always an option.. I hired a guy one time to repo dump truck trailer and Dozer of mine from a guy who would not pay me.. different cat than those that do auto repo.. Anyway he went on to tell me how they go snag white collar bad guys down in Central America get them back and then serve them. He might of just been puffing but he sure got my equipment back for me. - Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
So I get investors reaching out to me everyday and it goes like this:
"Hi, I know you offer turnkey properties and property management and am interested in the Toledo market, I don't want to buy turnkey but was hoping you could help me find a deal.
Also, do you have any contractor and lender referrals?
I'd also love to work with your property management company"
Diplomacy left me a long time ago so how would you guys reply?
Seems like to me that everyone wants something for nothing nowadays and nobody is willing to put in the work or to pay the margin for someone else that is willing to do the work...
Folks want to "own a monkey", play with the monkey, but not "carry the monkey" or clean it's S#@% when it does one hehe
I guess next time I go to McDonalds, I'll ask them for organic burger buns or where I can find them, I'll bring my own meat paddy and potatoes, get them to make a Big Mac meal for me and maybe I throw some change their way haha
How about those analogies above... lol
Have a great weekend guys and much success with your investing 🙏
1000% agree!! I too am contacted daily, same thing. Hey can you recommend contractors and wholesalers I want value add. Oki so whos is going to run the job for you? Well bob you can, Ok so you want me to find the deals run the job and you make the money. Sure, why don't I just do the job for you for free LOL,
We/ you provide a service to OOS and country buyers. They all think they can go it alone. Do you know how many horror stories I get weekly; I am sure you do as well. They overpaid, got ripped off by a contractor and worse, but in absolute war zones. At the end of the day sure they can try and run the job online but maybe end up with 5k or so more in equity 100% irrelevant. It takes them months to get a 2-week job done and overpriced, 3k to remove and replace a furnace almost double the real price! So many want things for free. I have one clown, I gave him a property, well sure enough he tried to go around me and buy it. Well, this clown was unaware I was the owner, so he actually called my other number. I played along then smashed him, LOL. He now has a bad rep as I spread his name to the other players in my market. Others try and sell me my own property!!
So many discount what we do, just to try and save a few bux when it ends up costing them, 5, 10 15k, and lots of headaches.
Keep crushing it MY friend.
True true mate,And then the "after the fact" can you help emails when S#%@ hits the fan due the DIY or BRRRR not working out…
Loyalty is a big one for me and over the years I have had many folks junk ship due to a promise of a lower PM rate or whatever.
We go out of our way to establish a long term trusting relationship with more than fair industry pricing, offering discounts, etc… and only for many to walk of with the first “blonde” that waves her tail at them…
Such is life mate and I still go into every investor relationship with an open heart
Keep being great and Happy Sunday
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
So I get investors reaching out to me everyday and it goes like this:
"Hi, I know you offer turnkey properties and property management and am interested in the Toledo market, I don't want to buy turnkey but was hoping you could help me find a deal.
Also, do you have any contractor and lender referrals?
I'd also love to work with your property management company"
Diplomacy left me a long time ago so how would you guys reply?
Seems like to me that everyone wants something for nothing nowadays and nobody is willing to put in the work or to pay the margin for someone else that is willing to do the work...
Folks want to "own a monkey", play with the monkey, but not "carry the monkey" or clean it's S#@% when it does one hehe
I guess next time I go to McDonalds, I'll ask them for organic burger buns or where I can find them, I'll bring my own meat paddy and potatoes, get them to make a Big Mac meal for me and maybe I throw some change their way haha
How about those analogies above... lol
Have a great weekend guys and much success with your investing 🙏
1000% agree!! I too am contacted daily, same thing. Hey can you recommend contractors and wholesalers I want value add. Oki so whos is going to run the job for you? Well bob you can, Ok so you want me to find the deals run the job and you make the money. Sure, why don't I just do the job for you for free LOL,
We/ you provide a service to OOS and country buyers. They all think they can go it alone. Do you know how many horror stories I get weekly; I am sure you do as well. They overpaid, got ripped off by a contractor and worse, but in absolute war zones. At the end of the day sure they can try and run the job online but maybe end up with 5k or so more in equity 100% irrelevant. It takes them months to get a 2-week job done and overpriced, 3k to remove and replace a furnace almost double the real price! So many want things for free. I have one clown, I gave him a property, well sure enough he tried to go around me and buy it. Well, this clown was unaware I was the owner, so he actually called my other number. I played along then smashed him, LOL. He now has a bad rep as I spread his name to the other players in my market. Others try and sell me my own property!!
So many discount what we do, just to try and save a few bux when it ends up costing them, 5, 10 15k, and lots of headaches.
Keep crushing it MY friend.
True true mate,And then the "after the fact" can you help emails when S#%@ hits the fan due the DIY or BRRRR not working out…
Loyalty is a big one for me and over the years I have had many folks junk ship due to a promise of a lower PM rate or whatever.
We go out of our way to establish a long term trusting relationship with more than fair industry pricing, offering discounts, etc… and only for many to walk of with the first “blonde” that waves her tail at them…
Such is life mate and I still go into every investor relationship with an open heart
Keep being great and Happy Sunday
We should maybe team up. I have unlimited deals, and buyers from around the world, We / they are always looking for opps, Who knows maybe you have something of interest and vis versa,
TEAM, Together Everyone Achieves More :) YA NEVER KNOW.
Happy Sunday, I'm heading out for my walk / run to the beach,
- Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Melanie P.:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI do not know your business well enough to say for certain, but I strongly suspect that if you developed a strong referral partner for the property management piece you'd be freed up to do additional houses each year, your customers would do better and buy more from you and you'd wind up with the same or higher $$$ at the end of the year.
I agree with you that full turnkey is full turnkey. I've bought turnkey properties over the years and I've never had one come with a tenant I kept and I did not care for the in house PM services. I've also seen a turnkey go out of business cause they started dipping into rents they were holding to fund their flipping. NOT saying this is you at all. Just an anecdote.
Unfortunately not in Toledo. Since 2014 when we first started turnkey here, PM’s have been notoriously known to nickel and dime to death. Not just that but making up non existent maintenance repairs and 5x overcharging. Very unethical. Let’s not even get into 70% of nationwide PM companies illegally tapping into the trust fund to support their operating expenses… Complete fraud…
If we from the beginning could have had 3rd party PM, our turnkey sales would have easily been 10x.
At the end of the day, investors don’t need to go with our in-house PM, although it is encouraged.
Nowadays, our PM has become the strongest subsidiary within our entire operation
- Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Quote from @Engelo Rumora:
Quote from @Melanie P.:
This post illustrates why if you buy a turnkey property you probably should find your own tenant and do the property management yourself or hire a manager you trust.
Turnkey providers are about the flipping. The PM services are a bolt on but the flipping culture is not a good fit to the culture of a successful property manager.
To answer the question - I would tell them that getting people started is what we specialize in. We only market properties are a thoroughly familiar with as a result of carrying them from acquisition to rent ready. And if you're operating a property management company you should at least check the address and see if it fits in your model.
There are many different twists on "Turnkey".
IMO, the "truest" turnkey providers are the one's that have property management in-house.
Not because they necessarily want to be in the PM business.
But because they have to be in the PM business.
That's how we started.
Thanks and happy weekendI have yet to see a Turnkey company that wasn't scambaggery. Clayton Morris, Greg Hughes for example.
"Fire engine wrecks are the new train wrecks"
They weren't true turnkey mate but rather "sales channels" pushing other turnkey companies products.They are still scum!
But very smart Scum decamp to Portugal while the golden visa was still in play ( I am guessing) know they cant get sued there and just continue to do their thing on U tube and still market properties in the US making fee's illegally just like they did before.. I was just in Portugal and its not like they had to run to Mexico or Belize. Thats a very nice beautiful country that many Americans are now living in.. Criminal intent Criminal mind.I know people who could a private rendition and get him to a country with extradition.
thats always an option.. I hired a guy one time to repo dump truck trailer and Dozer of mine from a guy who would not pay me.. different cat than those that do auto repo.. Anyway he went on to tell me how they go snag white collar bad guys down in Central America get them back and then serve them. He might of just been puffing but he sure got my equipment back for me.Ahhhh, the good old days when I had such heavy hitters on my Rolodex haha
The Feds doing honest work from 9-5 and then “for pay” jobs after hours hehehe
Might need to get my Cosa Nostra going again hahaha
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