Why do some investors allow unpermitted work?
Sophia BoroPro Member
Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia · Member since 2023 · 11 posts · 12 votes
Why do some investors allow unpermitted work?
Most Popular Reply
Personally I don't care of someone got permits to do something. If it's done right, I don't need the government having been involved. Plus, I see all the reasons someone wouldn't want to bother with a permit so I'm not going to lose sleep over their decision.
52 Replies
- Specialist · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 231 posts · 69 votes2y
1. Speed
2. Cost also known as Speed
- Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Cost and headache....but mostly COST.
I don't do full gut renovations so I haven't had to pull permits on things like electrical and plumbing, but I do new construction projects where you have no choice but to pull permits. The problem comes in when you have to call inspections for all the trades. You sit and you wait....
With new construction waiting isn't as bad a renovation because your holding cost is around a 7% rate, where as a renovation you are probably on a hard money loan at 12-15%.
In my market of Nashville, the folks doing flips stopped pulling permits when the electrical inspections started to take over a month. I don't at all support it, but I understand why they started doing unpermitted work. We can all sit on our high horses and say "that's not the right way" but Imagine sitting on a project for a month not being able to do absolutely anything, paying 15% interest while you wait for the city to get to you.
There are also some municipalities that require permitting for jobs over $1000. So if you have to paint your house you need a permit. I think that is crazy!
I just built a deck at my personal residence and the permitting process wasn't terrible, but it took about 2 weeks to review my initial plans, and then another week to approve and issue the permit. The inspections also seem pointless. The plans had reviews of my spans, cantilever, etc. WHen the inspector showed up for framing inspections, I was expecting him to measure my spans and cantilevers and make sure all my connections were solid. He looked at the deck, shook it and said "yep, that's not going anywhere" and signed off.
- Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes2y
Quote from @Sophia Boro:
There are obvious benefits to acquiring properties that have permitted work, but I want to see if anyone can explain why some folks allow unpermitted work. My curiosity includes how timeframes are affected, the listing price of the home, quality of work etc.
Anyone have any insight?The permitted work is making money to the gov , to the gc and about the same to the subcon.
the unpermitted work is making higher money to the subcon directly. Bypassing two elements.The actual job is the same.
In Mexico, Honduras, Thailand, there's no concept of "permitted work", they are done by the same people when it is about fixing the house, there's nothing magical about it.
So yes please use permitted work, if you want to do permitted work. LOL. - 2yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Quote from @Sophia Boro:
There are obvious benefits to acquiring properties that have permitted work, but I want to see if anyone can explain why some folks allow unpermitted work. My curiosity includes how timeframes are affected, the listing price of the home, quality of work etc.
Anyone have any insight?Generally people skip on the permits because they're cheap. And lazy. They may try to frame it in other terms because, hey who wants to admit that they're cheap and lazy? But that is generally the case.
If you do some research and plan in advance, the process will not even take that much longer.....most jurisdictions now have 'over-the-counter' permits for smaller projects. Now of course for a new build, or a major remodel, you will have to get an Architect and an Engineered set of plans, and submit plans to the City and a Plan Check company. But once again if you know this is coming it shouldn't be a big deal.
My experience (specifically from doing Home Inspections) showed that when un permitted work was discovered, the buyer usually expected and received a reduction in SF value and overall value. Today's buyers and agents are much more savvy than they used to be and will usually call the city to check permit status. For instance if there is a beautiful new kitchen but no permit on record for it, that would not be good for the seller.
While it does not automatically mean the work is inferior, it usually is. A good General Contractor will not do projects without a permit, usually you have unlicensed people that do that because they can't pull a permit anyway.
Some states are stricter than others so check what is required in your area, but generally if a permit is required and you cheat, you're just hurting yourself in the end.
- 2yManny VasquezBusiness MemberReal Estate Agent · Orange County · Member since 2022 · 318 posts · 293 votes
Sophia - Speaking from experience, I have chosen to go through both routes (permitted and unpermitted) at various times. It has nothing to do with QUALITY of work, rather it was more about WHAT type of work I was doing and the amount of TIME in which I needed to get the work completed. Depending on the municipality, often times the City Inspector can take days to "inspect" the work at your property. Many of us can't sit around all day "waiting" for an inspector to show so that we could continue our work.
If all I was doing some rehabbing/remodeling, then I will probably NOT get permits. This includes electical, plumbing, drywall, A/C, etc. Now, I do use quality people and many times, GC's. However, the permitting process may add additional time to the project. In the meantime, I have to continue paying the mortgage plus all the material and labor. In other words, I'm bleeding money. The faster I finish the project, the sooner I can sell the property or, if I plan to keep it, the sooner I can get tenants in there.
Now, if I'm adding square footage (i.e. a room, a bathroom, etc.) or if I'm adding something like a pool, then yes, I will get a permit BECAUSE I want the additions to be added to the property profile. I want to make sure that when I sell that property, the "additions" get added into the appraised value of the house. Most banks will not allow extra rooms/bathrooms/pools (etc.) to "count" in the appraised value of the property if there are no permits. For these instances, I make sure I have the appropriate permits so that I can then turn-around and sell the property at top value. Through experience, and depending on the municipality, you will learn to determine what you will need to pull permits and what work you can get away with without permits.
- Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes2y
Quote from @Manny Vasquez:
Sophia - Speaking from experience, I have chosen to go through both routes (permitted and unpermitted) at various times. It has nothing to do with QUALITY of work, rather it was more about WHAT type of work I was doing and the amount of TIME in which I needed to get the work completed. Depending on the municipality, often times the City Inspector can take days to "inspect" the work at your property. Many of us can't sit around all day "waiting" for an inspector to show so that we could continue our work.
If all I was doing some rehabbing/remodeling, then I will probably NOT get permits. This includes electical, plumbing, drywall, A/C, etc. Now, I do use quality people and many times, GC's. However, the permitting process may add additional time to the project. In the meantime, I have to continue paying the mortgage plus all the material and labor. In other words, I'm bleeding money. The faster I finish the project, the sooner I can sell the property or, if I plan to keep it, the sooner I can get tenants in there.
Now, if I'm adding square footage (i.e. a room, a bathroom, etc.) or if I'm adding something like a pool, then yes, I will get a permit BECAUSE I want the additions to be added to the property profile. I want to make sure that when I sell that property, the "additions" get added into the appraised value of the house. Most banks will not allow extra rooms/bathrooms/pools (etc.) to "count" in the appraised value of the property if there are no permits. For these instances, I make sure I have the appropriate permits so that I can then turn-around and sell the property at top value. Through experience, and depending on the municipality, you will learn to determine what you will need to pull permits and what work you can get away with without permits.
This is perfect and reality answer LOL
True, for addition it needs to be permitted.
- Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes2y
Quote from @Manny Vasquez:
Sophia - Speaking from experience, I have chosen to go through both routes (permitted and unpermitted) at various times. It has nothing to do with QUALITY of work, rather it was more about WHAT type of work I was doing and the amount of TIME in which I needed to get the work completed. Depending on the municipality, often times the City Inspector can take days to "inspect" the work at your property. Many of us can't sit around all day "waiting" for an inspector to show so that we could continue our work.
If all I was doing some rehabbing/remodeling, then I will probably NOT get permits. This includes electical, plumbing, drywall, A/C, etc. Now, I do use quality people and many times, GC's. However, the permitting process may add additional time to the project. In the meantime, I have to continue paying the mortgage plus all the material and labor. In other words, I'm bleeding money. The faster I finish the project, the sooner I can sell the property or, if I plan to keep it, the sooner I can get tenants in there.
Now, if I'm adding square footage (i.e. a room, a bathroom, etc.) or if I'm adding something like a pool, then yes, I will get a permit BECAUSE I want the additions to be added to the property profile. I want to make sure that when I sell that property, the "additions" get added into the appraised value of the house. Most banks will not allow extra rooms/bathrooms/pools (etc.) to "count" in the appraised value of the property if there are no permits. For these instances, I make sure I have the appropriate permits so that I can then turn-around and sell the property at top value. Through experience, and depending on the municipality, you will learn to determine what you will need to pull permits and what work you can get away with without permits.
also for us that understand how it work :
quality permitted work = quality of unpermitted worksubcons are happier doing more unpermitted work because they got more money
the lesser number of generalist in fixing home, the cheaper the project would be , no need to rush a project.
when specialist is needed, that's usually needed in more 'advance' case (like removing the entire plumbing).
so in reality , permitted work is just giving more commision dollar the gov and to the GC (that actually only inspecting the work and may design the work, but not really do the actual project) , so easy project unless it's an addition, getting permitted work almost doesn't make sense especially in the country where local gov does not care about it so much.
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes2y
The contractor is the one who pays the price with unpermitted work . When the customer gets caught , they claim ignorance and point their finger at the contractor . They show a canceled check made out to the contractor and all hell gets thrown on him . Then EVERY job the contractor does from that point on the inspectors show up late for inspections or get so picky and fail them for the smallest thing .
This is why we pull permits on every job . Its the contractor that pays the price long term .
- Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
@Sophia Boro - I have often seen that it is newer investors who are wanting avoid pulling permits. The fact is once you get caught you likely won't do it again...at least here in Chicago, which I personally experienced.
The fact is it's faster and cheaper for many different reasons. Your contractors don't need to be licensed and the work doesn't need to be inspected.
At the end of the day - there is a reason we have building codes and inspections - it's to make sure a quality product is being delivered that will last. In my opinion, it should not be looked at as a bad thing...but to be honest most people don't see it that way.
What I don't like specifically about inspections is the inconsistency about what is approved and what isn't, but thats a different topic all together.
Quality Builders4.966 Reviews - 2yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Quote from @Matthew Paul:
The contractor is the one who pays the price with unpermitted work . When the customer gets caught , they claim ignorance and point their finger at the contractor . They show a canceled check made out to the contractor and all hell gets thrown on him . Then EVERY job the contractor does from that point on the inspectors show up late for inspections or get so picky and fail them for the smallest thing .
This is why we pull permits on every job . Its the contractor that pays the price long term .
Yep^^^^ Once a GC is caught working without a permit where it is required, he becomes known as the sleazeball Contr. By other Contractors, the city inspectors, and worst yet, the clients.
- 2yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:
At the end of the day - there is a reason we have building codes and inspections - it's to make sure a quality product is being delivered that will last. In my opinion, it should not be looked at as a bad thing...but to be honest most people don't see it that way.
I agree. As much as I am a 'small Govt guy' and all that, there is sometimes a good reason for regulations, and this is one of them IMHO. At least where I worked (SoCal) the inspectors were generally very knowledgeable and honest, Inspections were easy to schedule with a phone call - you could get an inspector to the project the next day.
You could always tell the non-permitted jobs done by unlicensed Contractors, horrible, sloppy and dangerous.
And @Carlos Ptriawan, most good GCs have their own crews and do much more than just 'inspect' a job...they were there every day doing something and that kind of attention to a job is invaluable....
- 2yElise Bickel TauberBusiness MemberReal Estate Agent · Cranberry Twp · Member since 2017 · 385 posts · 198 votes
This is a question of area and what is being done. For anything cosmetic (paint, flooring, kitchen cabinets, etc) you dont need a permit. And most boros around Pittsburgh don't even have an option to pull for that. When it comes to anything major like electrical, plumbing, or structural...I think you need a permit. And I know it eats up time, but honestly, those are big things. Switching out a toilet, no you dont need a permit (imo). Running new plumbing lines to a house. Yes. The answer as to why homeowners or investors choose to do unpermitted work is both time and money. It has to be done by the books. The construction company my husband and I own have a city license which is required to get a permit in the city of Pittsburgh. It is a pain in the *** to get and not cheap. The extra insurances we need to hold, bonds, etc. But, we do a lot of work in the city so it's worth it.
I will also tell a cautionary tell. My client was selling a duplex in the city and when they went to sell, they found out that the guy they bought it from did a whole bunch of unpermitted work and the inspector prior to the current one was his buddy and let it pass. Well now my client had to rip out all that work and re-do it with the correct permits of the city wouldn't release the lien letters. It cost my client tens of thousands of dollars. I say just do it right the first time!
- Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes2yTrue , GC is like a teacher to subcon , but after years of experience , it is the GC that’s hands on , practical and having leverage.
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:
At the end of the day - there is a reason we have building codes and inspections - it's to make sure a quality product is being delivered that will last. In my opinion, it should not be looked at as a bad thing...but to be honest most people don't see it that way.
I agree. As much as I am a 'small Govt guy' and all that, there is sometimes a good reason for regulations, and this is one of them IMHO. At least where I worked (SoCal) the inspectors were generally very knowledgeable and honest, Inspections were easy to schedule with a phone call - you could get an inspector to the project the next day.
You could always tell the non-permitted jobs done by unlicensed Contractors, horrible, sloppy and dangerous.
And @Carlos Ptriawan, most good GCs have their own crews and do much more than just 'inspect' a job...they were there every day doing something and that kind of attention to a job is invaluable....
my GC guy would kill me if I hired his subcon and giving him 40 dollar per hour , for example , lol.
GC and subcon is like manager and employee in tech company lol …. At later day , it is the skilled subcon that we are chasing after …. Not the GC not the permit LOL - Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes2y
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
This is a question of area and what is being done. For anything cosmetic (paint, flooring, kitchen cabinets, etc) you dont need a permit. And most boros around Pittsburgh don't even have an option to pull for that. When it comes to anything major like electrical, plumbing, or structural...I think you need a permit. And I know it eats up time, but honestly, those are big things. Switching out a toilet, no you dont need a permit (imo). Running new plumbing lines to a house. Yes. The answer as to why homeowners or investors choose to do unpermitted work is both time and money. It has to be done by the books.
sometimes my licensed plumber has two offering : with unpermitted 5k with permit 10k, technically it is the same job by the same subcons….
and he said if city ask permit later on , I will bill you 3 k later , so there are these model as well. Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
This is a question of area and what is being done. For anything cosmetic (paint, flooring, kitchen cabinets, etc) you dont need a permit. And most boros around Pittsburgh don't even have an option to pull for that. When it comes to anything major like electrical, plumbing, or structural...I think you need a permit. And I know it eats up time, but honestly, those are big things. Switching out a toilet, no you dont need a permit (imo). Running new plumbing lines to a house. Yes. The answer as to why homeowners or investors choose to do unpermitted work is both time and money. It has to be done by the books.
sometimes my licensed plumber has two offering : with unpermitted 5k with permit 10k, technically it is the same job by the same subcons….
and he said if city ask permit later on , I will bill you 3 k later , so there are these model as well.INTERESTING!
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
This is a question of area and what is being done. For anything cosmetic (paint, flooring, kitchen cabinets, etc) you dont need a permit. And most boros around Pittsburgh don't even have an option to pull for that. When it comes to anything major like electrical, plumbing, or structural...I think you need a permit. And I know it eats up time, but honestly, those are big things. Switching out a toilet, no you dont need a permit (imo). Running new plumbing lines to a house. Yes. The answer as to why homeowners or investors choose to do unpermitted work is both time and money. It has to be done by the books. The construction company my husband and I own have a city license which is required to get a permit in the city of Pittsburgh. It is a pain in the *** to get and not cheap. The extra insurances we need to hold, bonds, etc. But, we do a lot of work in the city so it's worth it.
I will also tell a cautionary tell. My client was selling a duplex in the city and when they went to sell, they found out that the guy they bought it from did a whole bunch of unpermitted work and the inspector prior to the current one was his buddy and let it pass. Well now my client had to rip out all that work and re-do it with the correct permits of the city wouldn't release the lien letters. It cost my client tens of thousands of dollars. I say just do it right the first time!
Wasn't this part of the inspection done at the time of purchase of the property by your client?
- Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes2y
Quote from @Kevin S.:
Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
This is a question of area and what is being done. For anything cosmetic (paint, flooring, kitchen cabinets, etc) you dont need a permit. And most boros around Pittsburgh don't even have an option to pull for that. When it comes to anything major like electrical, plumbing, or structural...I think you need a permit. And I know it eats up time, but honestly, those are big things. Switching out a toilet, no you dont need a permit (imo). Running new plumbing lines to a house. Yes. The answer as to why homeowners or investors choose to do unpermitted work is both time and money. It has to be done by the books.
sometimes my licensed plumber has two offering : with unpermitted 5k with permit 10k, technically it is the same job by the same subcons….
and he said if city ask permit later on , I will bill you 3 k later , so there are these model as well.INTERESTING!
These plumber guys , if I have to create new plumbing line , he is basically doing temporary contracting to another 5 guys that do the work , and paid them hourly like 30 bucks per hour. He is just inspecting. Job is done in less than 8 hours, that 5 guys , would do drywall in any other day.
Want permit ? Can do … no permit no problemo
and yes everything should be following code. - 2yElise Bickel TauberBusiness MemberReal Estate Agent · Cranberry Twp · Member since 2017 · 385 posts · 198 votes
Quote from @Kevin S.:
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
This is a question of area and what is being done. For anything cosmetic (paint, flooring, kitchen cabinets, etc) you dont need a permit. And most boros around Pittsburgh don't even have an option to pull for that. When it comes to anything major like electrical, plumbing, or structural...I think you need a permit. And I know it eats up time, but honestly, those are big things. Switching out a toilet, no you dont need a permit (imo). Running new plumbing lines to a house. Yes. The answer as to why homeowners or investors choose to do unpermitted work is both time and money. It has to be done by the books. The construction company my husband and I own have a city license which is required to get a permit in the city of Pittsburgh. It is a pain in the *** to get and not cheap. The extra insurances we need to hold, bonds, etc. But, we do a lot of work in the city so it's worth it.
I will also tell a cautionary tell. My client was selling a duplex in the city and when they went to sell, they found out that the guy they bought it from did a whole bunch of unpermitted work and the inspector prior to the current one was his buddy and let it pass. Well now my client had to rip out all that work and re-do it with the correct permits of the city wouldn't release the lien letters. It cost my client tens of thousands of dollars. I say just do it right the first time!
Wasn't this part of the inspection done at the time of purchase of the property by your client?
The work was done right and passed inspection, but the code guy made them rip it out and redo it because it was done prior to a permit being pulled. Then it all had to be re-done. I've never come across that situation in 20 years of doing this.
- Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes2y
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
Quote from @Kevin S.:
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
This is a question of area and what is being done. For anything cosmetic (paint, flooring, kitchen cabinets, etc) you dont need a permit. And most boros around Pittsburgh don't even have an option to pull for that. When it comes to anything major like electrical, plumbing, or structural...I think you need a permit. And I know it eats up time, but honestly, those are big things. Switching out a toilet, no you dont need a permit (imo). Running new plumbing lines to a house. Yes. The answer as to why homeowners or investors choose to do unpermitted work is both time and money. It has to be done by the books. The construction company my husband and I own have a city license which is required to get a permit in the city of Pittsburgh. It is a pain in the *** to get and not cheap. The extra insurances we need to hold, bonds, etc. But, we do a lot of work in the city so it's worth it.
I will also tell a cautionary tell. My client was selling a duplex in the city and when they went to sell, they found out that the guy they bought it from did a whole bunch of unpermitted work and the inspector prior to the current one was his buddy and let it pass. Well now my client had to rip out all that work and re-do it with the correct permits of the city wouldn't release the lien letters. It cost my client tens of thousands of dollars. I say just do it right the first time!
Wasn't this part of the inspection done at the time of purchase of the property by your client?
The work was done right and passed inspection, but the code guy made them rip it out and redo it because it was done prior to a permit being pulled. Then it all had to be re-done. I've never come across that situation in 20 years of doing this.
I heard PA cities has pretty strict code enforcement right ?
Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
Quote from @Kevin S.:
Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber:
This is a question of area and what is being done. For anything cosmetic (paint, flooring, kitchen cabinets, etc) you dont need a permit. And most boros around Pittsburgh don't even have an option to pull for that. When it comes to anything major like electrical, plumbing, or structural...I think you need a permit. And I know it eats up time, but honestly, those are big things. Switching out a toilet, no you dont need a permit (imo). Running new plumbing lines to a house. Yes. The answer as to why homeowners or investors choose to do unpermitted work is both time and money. It has to be done by the books. The construction company my husband and I own have a city license which is required to get a permit in the city of Pittsburgh. It is a pain in the *** to get and not cheap. The extra insurances we need to hold, bonds, etc. But, we do a lot of work in the city so it's worth it.
I will also tell a cautionary tell. My client was selling a duplex in the city and when they went to sell, they found out that the guy they bought it from did a whole bunch of unpermitted work and the inspector prior to the current one was his buddy and let it pass. Well now my client had to rip out all that work and re-do it with the correct permits of the city wouldn't release the lien letters. It cost my client tens of thousands of dollars. I say just do it right the first time!
Wasn't this part of the inspection done at the time of purchase of the property by your client?
The work was done right and passed inspection, but the code guy made them rip it out and redo it because it was done prior to a permit being pulled. Then it all had to be re-done. I've never come across that situation in 20 years of doing this.
I heard PA cities has pretty strict code enforcement right ?
In Mercer County (just north of Pittsburgh), they are very lax about permitting and city involvement in renovations.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes2y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:
At the end of the day - there is a reason we have building codes and inspections - it's to make sure a quality product is being delivered that will last. In my opinion, it should not be looked at as a bad thing...but to be honest most people don't see it that way.
I agree. As much as I am a 'small Govt guy' and all that, there is sometimes a good reason for regulations, and this is one of them IMHO. At least where I worked (SoCal) the inspectors were generally very knowledgeable and honest, Inspections were easy to schedule with a phone call - you could get an inspector to the project the next day.
You could always tell the non-permitted jobs done by unlicensed Contractors, horrible, sloppy and dangerous.
And @Carlos Ptriawan, most good GCs have their own crews and do much more than just 'inspect' a job...they were there every day doing something and that kind of attention to a job is invaluable....
Life is such a funny thing sometimes - and I'm right on the opposite side of the fence to some extent here; I'm not necessarily a "big gov't" or "small gov't" guy, but I am a "don't be an unreasonable pain in the *** gov't" guy, and at least in my neck of the woods permitting is a royal PITA for very low value. Half the time the city can't make up its own mind on what needs to be permitted and what doesn't, doesn't have enough inspectors to keep up and often have rules that don't even make sense to national building code guidelines. For example, my city requires 12-2 electrical or higher everywhere; it doesn't matter if you are running one single circuit to serve a 1/2 amp stove exhaust fan, you cannot use 15A breakers and 14ga wire anywhere. That's just plain stupid and they are the only jurisdiction around here that does it.
Another fine example: we have a house that many years ago someone decided to tear out the front wall, put in a second wall further inside the house, so that they could have a full front porch. This is a house on a full basement, full foundation. They put in 6x6 posts in the corners and headers back to the new wall on the perimeter, so everything is point loaded to the ground. No permitting was done on this of course but it was probably done in the 50s or 60s. In any case, I wanted to put it back to original because the open porch allows moisture to get into the basement, which is under the open porch and the rest of the house. So all I would be doing is ADDING more support by filling in the gaps on the header with 2x4 studs, leaving the existing 6x6s in place, and closing in the walls. Went down to the permit office to see if I needed a permit and they told me no, as long as I wasn't tearing out any walls. So got my guys to start putting up the walls. Someone (the existing tenant, I suspect, who didn't want to lose the porch even though she knew this was going to happen when she rented as it was in the lease) called the permit office to ask if this was allowed. Next thing I know my guys tell me they came by and slapped a stop work order on the job, after I had 50% of the walls up. So I go down to permitting and they tell me I'm going to need to submit approved drawings from a licensed structural engineer in order to fill in the empty spaces with 2x4s. Of course I'm not going to do that, so after some back and forth with them they agree that half walls can be built all the way around without a permit. Not a damned lick of sense to what they wanted or what they were prohibiting; I was simply putting the house back the way it should have been, and if anything improving the load distribution along the basement perimeter wall.
So anyway, yes sometimes permitting is skipped.
Skyline Properties - 2yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
@JD Martin I hear ya. Sometimes the whole Permit/Inspection thing is total BS. I have been hassled and harassed as a builder by Building Inspectors for nothing. Lost days of work, had to cancel concrete trucks, etc...
But I get the concept and agree in principle....but only for really important and potentially dangerous stuff...you wouldn't believe what I've seen out there.....
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes2y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
@JD Martin I hear ya. Sometimes the whole Permit/Inspection thing is total BS. I have been hassled and harassed as a builder by Building Inspectors for nothing. Lost days of work, had to cancel concrete trucks, etc...
But I get the concept and agree in principle....but only for really important and potentially dangerous stuff...you wouldn't believe what I've seen out there.....
I agree in principle as well; there just needs to be a healthy dose of common sense in the process. Pretty much everywhere (at least around here) the process goes something like this: inspectors and permit people need to justify their jobs, so they make the process more difficult than it already is, with added BS that doesn't pass muster with any standard like the IBC or NFPA, the City Council says "Well, they're the experts" and acquiesce, eventually enough contractors start screaming at council members, who direct staff to make changes, who make the 10 page permit process a 9 page process and call it a successful reform 🙄 . Some of our contractors won't even do installs for us in the city limits any more because of the BS.
What we really need here is a 3 person appeal/oversight committee that can review code and hear appeals, made up of one engineer, one contractor and maybe one safety advocate. And one other thing I've noticed here - the really bad stuff - miswiring in electrical panels, unsafe gas installations, etc - tend to be done by people either doing it themselves or hiring their brother to do it because it costs way more than it should to do it with licensed people pulling permits because of all the BS they have to go through, which means they have to charge more money. The very thing they're trying to discourage is what they're encouraging by making the process onerous.
Skyline Properties - Real Estate Agent · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 846 votes2y
Quote from @Sophia Boro:
There are obvious benefits to acquiring properties that have permitted work, but I want to see if anyone can explain why some folks allow unpermitted work. My curiosity includes how timeframes are affected, the listing price of the home, quality of work etc.
Anyone have any insight?Well. A lot of times permits add a lot of unnecessary cost with architectural drawings. For instance just to place a commercial tenant (no physical changes to the space) the Borough required us to pay $5000 for an architect to draw the space.
Kind of dumb.
It also adds a lot of time.
I don’t mind permits when they are truly for safety but the local governments often overstep beyond just safety and it becomes a bit of a money grab ($500-1000). The problem isn’t the money to the local government though, that’s insignificant, it’s the money paid to professionals like engineers, surveyors, and architects when it costs as much or more than the project cost.
For instance I’ve paid more than double the cost to have drawings and engineer reviews on projects than what I paid the actual contractor.
When safety is involved I always do them.
- 2yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Quote from @Anthony Angotti:
It can get up there though....permit costs, plan check fees, school fees, etc. To do a build or large remodel was costing $50k and up (to the local Govt) on my projects,
Add in $30k for the Architect, $5k Engineering, $15k Designer and the customer was at $100,000 before I pulled out my hammer....
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