Seasoned investor wanting to walk away from it all

Seasoned investor wanting to walk away from it all

Flipper/Rehabber · Bend, OR · Member since 2012 · 31 posts · 32 votes

Hey BP! I have an interesting and important dilemma in real estate that I don't feel gets touched on enough. It's something I've been struggling with for years, despite the tremendous success I've had over the last few years. It's a pretty serious topic for me and has been weighing on me a lot lately. I am going to provide you a very short version of the struggle I've been dealing with in this business, but it's still going to be a pretty long post.

First about me and my background in this business. I'm very passionate about real estate. My family and friends would tell you that I am a total addict. I have been investing in real estate for approximately six years, and actively/full time for over half that time. I started out doing just a deal or two a year, and for the last few years I am at the point where I am doing multiple deals per month. My first priority in this business is to pick up rentals, but if the property doesn't work I'll next approach the deal with an end goal to fix and resell it. Lastly, I have a few employees whom, among other things, help to wholesale my excess deals to other investors. 

I primarily focus on SFR's, however I also invest in multi-unit properties, land, manufactured homes with land, multiple types of commercial properties, including offices and apartment complexes, etc. I feel that my methods to finding these deals are fairly common place, at least to the BP community. I have websites, direct mail campaigns and a network of agents, wholesalers and so forth. All in all, I spend several thousands every month on marketing to distressed sellers, and probably a few hundred dollars more on regularly taking out fellow real estate professionals for coffee and lunch.

Business is going well, however, I am just steadily growing more and more unhappy with it. The problem is, I've begun to seriously question my place in this business. When people ask me what I do for work, I give them an honest personal interpretation of what exactly it is that I do. I'm afraid now though, as my perspectives have changed, that it would be a much darker answer if someone were to ask me tomorrow. It's a perspective that I am not certain of, but still afraid that it may be true. 

It comes down to the sellers. The individuals I buy houses and other types of real estate from. I don't believe I am acting in their best interest. It used to take me no effort to rationalize that I was doing the sellers a serious service by taking their less than desirable real estate off their hands.

I would think to myself, 

"I am buying their UNWANTED property, and I am buying it at a FAIR price." 

or,

"It's not that I am truly buying at 60%-70% on the dollar, because there is no way retail buyers will pay the ARV price for a property in this condition! Investors are the only ones who pick properties up like this, so I'm paying pretty close to what it's worth now in it's current condition!"

The thing is though, I don't think these things are true anymore. In fact, I know they aren't. At least, not in the markets I invest in. I invest in markets all throughout Oregon and southern Washington, and I have connections with Investors, and agents who have buyers, that will pay significantly more than us 65-70% type investors and close equally as fast. What I am saying is, with almost every piece of real estate I purchase, I am a phone call away from putting the sellers in contact with someone who will pay $10,000-50,000+ more than what I pay for it. This really eats at me.

For example, I have a closing tomorrow for a property that needs $30,000 tops in repairs, and has an ARV of 275k. I am purchasing it for 135k. I feel like I could take this property and resell it for 180k+ as-is. It feels good to get great deals, and get that much closer to your financial/career goals when you do get them. But that difference of what others will pay for it vs what I will pay for it is weighing on my conscience.

Adding up all the transactions I do per year, this adds up to a sizable amount of cash that could've been in all these sellers hands. Cash that I now feel is dirty. How can I work my way to being a better person throughout my life while I actively build a net worth off of other peoples equity? Not only do I feel like they could've all got better deals, but I also feel like these are some of the people in the most need of help. There's such an opportunity to give financial blessing to some of these people in their distressed situations, but instead I seem to take their situation and make it a financial blessing for myself. 

It's not an issue of honesty. I've setup protocols, neat little employee handbooks and so forth to make sure my team approaches each transaction with the utmost transparency and honesty. 

This is the first time on BP I've went relatively in depth about my business, the success I am currently having, and the trials and doubts I am struggling with. I wish such a post could've been differently, perhaps another notch in the Success Stories forum. But it's not. I feel dirty. Like all the real estate I've acquired is dirty. Like I don't truly help sellers, and that I'm just here to take advantage of their situation.

I'm not a great writer, and I'm not the best at expressing myself either. I know that this post won't really express the depth of the struggle I am going through with this, and how much it weighs on my heart. But I think, you guys will still be able to get an idea of where I am coming from. Maybe some of you have even struggled with the same issue, or currently are? 

Help me out guys! I feel I am on the brink of wanting to walk away from this business.  Am I wrong in my thinking, and just beating myself up too much? Am I right,  and should I just make a few minor or major adjustments in my business model to cleanse my conscience and better serve those I mean to do business with? Should I take a step back? I really appreciate the BP community and find that a lot of the knowledge here is practically invaluable. I look forward to reading the posts from anyone who would be so kind as to weigh in on this issue of mine! 

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Brian BurkePro Member
Investor · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 7k+ votes
10y

@Kyle Bigger, if it eats at you that much you can easily solve it...just start paying the sellers FMV (or more) and you can sleep at night knowing that these folks that you've likely never met (and probably never will) got more of your money. Trouble is, that wouldn't allow you to stay in business very long, at least not with the economics that have allowed you to grow.

But instead of doing that, you might try focusing on the real benefactors of your investments. That is, the people you care about the most: your family and your employees.  If you hang it up the folks that have dedicated themselves to facilitating your success will have to find a new way to make a living and/or alter their standard of living. Right now, they are counting on you.   

And what is so wrong about what you are doing?  Forget real estate for a moment...lets say you own a retail store. You buy your products from your supplier and put them on your shelf for double the price (without doing anything to the product but putting it on the shelf)--and people happily pay it. Did you take advantage of your supplier?  Did you take advantage of your customer?  I think not.  The reality is that business has costs and the delta between acquisition and sale prices is what covers that cost with an allowance for profit (which is simply an additional cost--you're worth something).  You didn't add value to the product, but you added value to the process because your retail store has customers, marketing, location, etc.

Your real estate business has payroll, office costs, commissions, closing costs, holding costs, rehab costs, marketing expenses...the list goes on and on.  Retail buyers don't have the same cost structure that you do so of course they'll pay more. But that doesn't mean that they are a better buyer (in the eyes of the seller) than you are.  Retail buyers can be flaky, cancel deals, take forever to close, ask for a laundry list of repairs, and it can take a long time to find them in some cases. These are all things that you, the professional investor, aren't, and don't do.  You offer the sellers something that the retail buyers don't--certainty of closing, a hassle-free transaction, speed and agility, timing...among other things that the sellers value or they wouldn't take your deal.

If you aren't out there lying to the sellers or tricking them into taking your deal, you are running a prudent and honest business just like every other service provider in a capitalistic economy.  You can hang up real estate, but you'll never escape the principle that earning a living means acquiring something and disposing of it for compensation. That might mean that you acquire time on earth from the Almighty for free and sell it to an employer at an hourly cost, or acquire real estate at a low price and rent it or sell it to others for a profit. Many folks doing the former would give their right arm to achieve success in the latter.  Many of these aspiring investors reading your post now have insight into a world that isn't all rainbows and unicorns...

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Kyle Bigger  nice post your getting some incredible deals.. much more competitive over here in PDX were 20k profit is a nice day.

    as a little aside one of my best fishing buddies lives at Broken Top, and when he sold his golf course building business he got board.. I said why don't you chase down NOD's in Bend and we will buy some foreclosures there.. Well he hops in his 100k Porsche and starts driving around .. goes by a few on the list I gave him.. then he calls me that night and says he can't do it... He says he donates money at church to help people save their homes so he just can't buy them then kick them out .... :) I always thought that was kind of neat.

    wholesaling and buying distressed real estate can and is fraught with some pretty slimy folks that don't tell the truth.. get people to deed them properties for 10 dollars all sorts of stuff. And I myself had those same thoughts as I got out of the distressed asset business in a direct way and retooled in 2002 to HML.. I justified that as I am just making a loan.

    And now a days we just are building new homes in Oregon and 2 other states. and we just provide capital to others.. 99% of what we buy is at public auctions and off of RMLS.. We don't do much of anything with the wholesale communities as we never really see any value with 99% of the deals presented and or the people your having to deal with are too inexperienced for my patients level.

    But I can tell you if you reposted the example you gave of a 130k buy with 30k rehab and 275 ARV.. 95% of the people on this site would congratulate you as that is what they want to do .. most folks here that are starting out want to make big bucks and the bigger the better and really the sellers interest are second to theirs other wise they would not be in the business.. I know when I am in it my interest come first I make no bones about that.. I had a bunch of OREO in the crash and I gave probably 30 or 40 homes to Habitat and continue to help them.. you may look at that sort of thing to balance your conscience.

    Let us know how you decide to work going forward...

  • Wholesaler · Goodlettsville, TN · Member since 2015 · 6 posts · 10 votes
    10y
    Awesome post. Thank you for the honesty, integrity, and compassion that you display. I've not had the good fortune to experience a lot of success in this business and it's my belief that I struggle with the same thoughts. Maybe you could figure out a way to use the position you're in to accomplish both goals. The great risk seems to be in acquisition and surprises that happen along the way. What if you were able to "give back" to the homeowner after the deal was deemed a profit. Obviously you can't offer promises to distressed sellers but you already provide solutions. Dunno? Secret Santa? This the season. :)
  • Real Estate Investor · Lansdowne, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 656 votes
    10y

    Sounds like you need to take up a charitable cause or two. A vacation (seriously no electronics in tow) might not hurt either but donating a thousand bucks here and there to some charities; purchase some school supplies, tablets for a low income school in your market; start a non-profit organization of your own. One or all of the aforementioned could surely free up that heaviness in your heart that you're suffering from.  If neither of them work then you likely need to find out what your calling really is, my coin. 

    Kudos,

    Mary 

  • Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes
    10y

    It is a heartfelt, authentic sentiment Kyle.. Probably one many share, be they criminal defense lawyers that get someone they know is guilty off the hook, or someone selling an unhealthy food product in the developing world,  or even those marketing an addictive one like tobacco. People doing jobs they wonder about inside....

    You are probably doing less social harm than some of these professions above btw in some views...

    You do have a willing buyer and seller, so the economist says there is a net gain here, you gave them the cash they needed for a property they could not fix or might even lose. You make money, they get cash (fast as your company initiates). Win-win.. 

    Could they do better if they had more information (like you). Maybe. But real estate is just such a market where how much an ugly or distressed property is worth is open to some debate. I suspect you buy stuff many others won't. Remember, you also turn around and give a retailer buyer an nice, rehabbed home. So,you are like a one man (or team) housing agency here, upgrading housing across two states and making it marketable. You employ people, help the economy with each transaction (ads, transactions costs, materials, labor, etc)...

    I am no real estate ethicist, but my best idea: give a lot (like whatever is a lot to you, be it three, four, five or six figures) to the very best charity you can find, maybe one that tackles homelessness or a major social problem. (You may also get a needed tax break and bonus goodwill as nice side benefits, FYI)...Then keep in mind you are playing a role in a larger market, bigger than all of us, and if you don't do the deal, someone else will, and they may give less than you to the buyer and even do less "good " with the money....or if it is too out of line with your values, you can always do something else, but it is hard to find a really "pure" pursuit these days where there aren't some compromises...thanks for sharing and best of luck.

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 388 posts · 563 votes
    10y

    Kudos, Kyle. You've discovered an affliction called "wholesaler's remorse." I actually just invented the diagnosis based on your symptoms, so why don't we say we co-discovered it.

    We both run a rental property business. I can say with great conviction that I love providing residents with a safe place to live and a beautiful home, all at an affordable price. Not only does it let me sleep well at night, but I wake up with enthusiasm, eager to confront the challenges that each day brings. In the rental property business, I believe I can make the world a better place. I rehabilitate unloved and foreclosed upon homes(with my capital and my brain- sadly, my home repair knowledge does not extend much beyond a plugged toilet.) The neighbors often bring free lemonade to my rehab experts. Sometimes they'll call  to thank me for removing neighborhood blight and making the neighborhood a better and safer place to live. What they don't know? I install energy-efficient lighting and heating, and low-flow water fixtures, so I reduce the carbon footprint of my properties, making the world a better place. I almost forgot- I make money too!

    I've purchased two properties from wholesalers, and I can truly say that they added no value, and I popped them like zits. Don't be a zit. You run a rental property business which puts you in an excellent position to improve the lives of people, the planet AND to build wealth, all without engaging in value-less behaviors. So...why don't you do that?

    Congratulations on your realization, sleep well tonight(and well into the future,)

    Michael

  • Brian BurkePro Member
    Investor · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    10y

    @Kyle Bigger, if it eats at you that much you can easily solve it...just start paying the sellers FMV (or more) and you can sleep at night knowing that these folks that you've likely never met (and probably never will) got more of your money. Trouble is, that wouldn't allow you to stay in business very long, at least not with the economics that have allowed you to grow.

    But instead of doing that, you might try focusing on the real benefactors of your investments. That is, the people you care about the most: your family and your employees.  If you hang it up the folks that have dedicated themselves to facilitating your success will have to find a new way to make a living and/or alter their standard of living. Right now, they are counting on you.   

    And what is so wrong about what you are doing?  Forget real estate for a moment...lets say you own a retail store. You buy your products from your supplier and put them on your shelf for double the price (without doing anything to the product but putting it on the shelf)--and people happily pay it. Did you take advantage of your supplier?  Did you take advantage of your customer?  I think not.  The reality is that business has costs and the delta between acquisition and sale prices is what covers that cost with an allowance for profit (which is simply an additional cost--you're worth something).  You didn't add value to the product, but you added value to the process because your retail store has customers, marketing, location, etc.

    Your real estate business has payroll, office costs, commissions, closing costs, holding costs, rehab costs, marketing expenses...the list goes on and on.  Retail buyers don't have the same cost structure that you do so of course they'll pay more. But that doesn't mean that they are a better buyer (in the eyes of the seller) than you are.  Retail buyers can be flaky, cancel deals, take forever to close, ask for a laundry list of repairs, and it can take a long time to find them in some cases. These are all things that you, the professional investor, aren't, and don't do.  You offer the sellers something that the retail buyers don't--certainty of closing, a hassle-free transaction, speed and agility, timing...among other things that the sellers value or they wouldn't take your deal.

    If you aren't out there lying to the sellers or tricking them into taking your deal, you are running a prudent and honest business just like every other service provider in a capitalistic economy.  You can hang up real estate, but you'll never escape the principle that earning a living means acquiring something and disposing of it for compensation. That might mean that you acquire time on earth from the Almighty for free and sell it to an employer at an hourly cost, or acquire real estate at a low price and rent it or sell it to others for a profit. Many folks doing the former would give their right arm to achieve success in the latter.  Many of these aspiring investors reading your post now have insight into a world that isn't all rainbows and unicorns...

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I really appreciate the honest and transparency of the OP here. Lots of people responding with justifications for the profits he is making, and they may be absolutely right (for them), but at the end of the day we each have to look at ourselves in the mirror. If you consistently don't feel good about what you are doing then I'd take a step back. Go on vacation, leave your electronics, go backpacking or something else remote. Do it before this drains you of your passion for RE. When you come back if you still feel the same way, then change your business model. You're a smart guy, I'm sure you can figure out a way to make money in REI while avoiding the stuff you don't feel right about ... it may end up being a breakthrough you need to become even more successful.

  • Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2015 · 77 posts · 46 votes
    10y

    Kyle, I think you are the type of person every parent hopes to raise. Cypress Hill's song Rock Superstar imagines an upstart's desire to "take **** from people who don't know what it is." As a Real Estate Superstar, your passion and aptitude have enabled you to achieved this transfer of wealth. It is big of you to question when this is wrong.

    I remember my mother proudly telling me of the little old lady coming over from next door, asking mom to buy her house for far below market. Instead, mom got an appraisal and paid that price.

    Now, value is in fact relative, but for an example of how to justify anything, refer to the perspective offered by Mr. Burke (and purveyors of tobacco, slaves, and street drugs before him), which seems to imply that every profitable transaction is noble. 

    Michael Boyer and David Faulkner are the ones who would have recalled the Pintos. 

    Off the cuff, if you feel you can and should pay more to your sellers while still covering your overhead and making profits, why not do it - perhaps in a creative way? Making more room in your business plan for charity is great, but not as an indulgence payment band aid for your conscience. 

    Anyone have references to other discussions or developed thoughts off-market real estate deal ethics?

  • Real Estate Agent · Wheaton, IL · Member since 2008 · 66 posts · 32 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Kyle Bigger:

    ..

    Help me out guys! I feel I am on the brink of wanting to walk away from this business.  Am I wrong in my thinking, and just beating myself up too much? ...

    Hi Kyle, there is a website called whywesuffer.com.  I am not sure if everything the author writes there is true, but I find that many things about our reasons for suffering are true.  Basically, there is a part of us that wants to suffer, as contradictory as it sounds.  That's why we tend to look for reasons to feel bad.  For example, I have a fear of flying.  I used to fear a plane crash, but, after a few years flying, I now fear a medical emergency happening while I'm on a plane.  As you can see, I want to feel scared and am just finding reasons to feel scared.

    In the end, you may find that, after giving up on business, you may feel the same guilt, but now for different reasons (i.e. you are not volunteering enough, don't give enough to charity, etc...)  Reasons which have little to do with what you are actually doing, but more to do with how you feel inside.  

    I may be wrong, but these are my observations based on my own experiences.

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Kyle Bigger It is obvious you are a person with compassion and a conscious. I appreciate your being open and honest. This holiday season, take some time to watch the classic movie "It's a Wonderful Life", whether or not you've seen it before.  Reflect on how your presence and good will can make a difference. Keep ever mindful of the needs of other people. Provide a hand up when you see the opportunity.

    We (my husband and I) bought a distressed 8-plex from investors (husband/wife) when we were less knowledgeable about real estate deals and values. We didn't pay a fair price (we overpaid) and the investors who sold us the property were less than honest and took advantage of our naivety. They owned 200+ residential rental units and several commercial properties. They lived in a 3 million dollar home with a view. The 8-plex was occupied by low-income and fixed income folk who were living paycheck to paycheck, or on social security income that came once a month. The investors did little to no maintenance, didn't visit the property, but sent a fruit basket to the tenants every Christmas, which amused the tenants. The tenants ate the fruit as they sat in their apartments with furnaces that needed repair and doors that didn't keep the draft out. When the tenants asked for repairs, they were often given the excuse "It's not in the budget." Instead of making a positive difference in the lives of these tenants, by providing better living conditions, the investors gave large sums of money to charities such as the symphony and local college. They were seen by many in our town as honorable and generous people, though they were neglectful of the basic needs of the people they could most readily serve. We saw first hand the contrast of their public facade and how they made their money. It's all about choice.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    I, too, have wrestled with this in my time investing.  I appreciate your openness and honesty.  If this price helps solve your seller's problem and you didn't do 4 rounds of Korean-style negotiations to get them there, I would do it.  

    When I feel like this, I remember all the times my free advice has helped someone facing foreclosure or my mercy has helped a struggling tenant.  I try and serve my residents at all levels to the best of my ability.  Sounds like you have no trouble doing right by others.  You could give these folks a gift card or gift basket of some kind.  Surprise them with something you've learned they need and rest easy!  

    I love Bend, BTW, and get there any chance I can to visit my bro and enjoy your great outdoors rafting Big Eddie, mountain biking or climbing Smith Rock @Kyle Bigger!

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    This is one of the reasons why I would not forcely buy a distressed property, I do believe that buying land and building units there will change the OP's mind about investing. There are a couple of areas where you can participate in RE, and wholesaling and buying distressed properties will not fit on what I do, sure, it will give anyone money, but I am more of believing in helping others than that of robbing them in front. What Jay Hinrichs is doing is far more decent from that of wholesaling, building houses, and if I am going to reach that point, I would even pair 10% of all retail houses with low-incomes, maybe more, the point is, I would like to share to the less fortunate, and if there is a way I could scale that, I would.
  • Tom MolePro Member
    Investor · Sunland, CA · Member since 2013 · 260 posts · 240 votes
    10y

    @Kyle Bigger, I understand your pain. I mostly see it in newbies trying to break into foreclosures without losing their place in Heaven. I felt like you do until I met a fellow BP member from So Cal., @Arturo Olivas. Look him up. Have a chat. I think you'll like him and what he does. I do. (Tell him Tom Mole referred you. He'll like that! :)

    Arturo has a rather humane way of dealing with people who find themselves in a financial well. He offers to JV with homeowner, rehab the property and sell it at the top of comps. He then splits the proceeds after all expenses something like 70/30 in the owner's favor. He actually creates value then give a part of that back to the homeowner.

    So, do they still lose their houses? Well, generally yes, but they were going to anyways to you, a retail buyer or the bank. What they get out of the deal is the profit that you feel you're stealing. I would argue that you didn't create the homeowner's situation, so its not stealing and no one is holding a gun to their heads, but I hate waking up at night wondering What Would Jesus Do? as the kids from church used to say.

    I must say I respect everything @Jay Hinrichs says. It sounds like you live pretty close to him. I would offer to meet this man between here and there and buy him dinner. He's a reasonable guy and I'll bet he could help regain your composure. (I'd just like to meet for kicks, but I live too far off.)

    @Brian Burke makes a good point worth considering. Often these properties are dumps because of the people who currently own them. They don't know or they don't about taking care of their property. Some of them are really not very nice people, but what about the nice people that purchase your rehabs. People that maybe are looking to start a family or an older couple that want to live in a place that they don't have to "fix up"? Are you not providing value to them? What about the community at large? When you rehab a property in the neighborhood and sell for top dollar, don't the property values go up just a bit for the rest of the neighborhood?

    The bottom line is this, this is the real estate business. Real estate is your passion, so this is your passion. Don't quit, adapt! I'll tell you what, teach me to be as successful as you are and I'll help you make a good profit while still maintaining your humanity. I believe with a passion that I can make that commitment.

    I hope this helps some. Happy holidays!!

  • Investor · Naperville, IL · Member since 2015 · 38 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    The thought that comes to mind to me is that knowledge has value.    You have knowledge how to locate these distressed properties that your eventual buyers don't have.   You have knowledge how to reliably fix these properties up in an efficient way that increases their market value.    You have knowledge to connect this product to the buyers that want it.   It's a knowledge economy so don't feel bad that you are successful at what you do.

  • Developer · Torrance, CA · Member since 2013 · 59 posts · 51 votes
    10y

    There is a point, where our goals that were set in motion have been meet. And its ok to move on to another adventure specially if you are unhappy. I meet a gentleman who set out to own 25 Free and Clear homes in SoCal and accomplished that 2 years ago. He told me that even though he could still participate in this market, he had reached his written goal and was satisfied with his accomplishments. Now he runs a youth w disabilities program in OC. Good choice good life I say. 

  • Ronald PerichPro Member
    Investor · Granite City, IL · Member since 2014 · 658 posts · 301 votes
    10y

    @Kyle Bigger,

    I don't know if you are a religious person or not, but it sounds as if you try to be ethical. I'm a Christian and one of my favorite passages is from Matthew 20:1-16.

    I relate this to you because the workers can represent the different people you mentioned in your post. You are offering a fair, agreed upon price for their property and then arranging for others to pay you a fair, reasonable price for it. The sellers will never sell you anything they don't want to sell. They can always say no. It's happened to me, likely to everyone who's ever tried their hand at this business!

    I remember one property I looked at. Estate sale. The executor "just wanted it to be sold" but the family members did not want to sell it for my price. They ended up listing it for about $60,000 more than I offered. Perhaps they will get that price, perhaps not. It conservatively needs $20K worth of work that would take 2-3 months to complete. I don't think FHA will be good with it due to the needed repairs and condition. Very nice place, but everything is 40 years old, except the roof which is 20 years old.

    I hope they are able to sell and get more. That's better financially for them. But I hope it happens very quickly. I could tell the executor just wanted it done and over with. And that's why she would have accepted my offer - because I was adding big-time value in her eyes.

    Anyway, hope this helps. Remember, there are two parties to every transaction and both have to agree.

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y

    Without reading all the other posts, in case I'm repeating what someone else said, my thoughts in no particular order:

    1. That you even think about these things show that you have a conscience, and that alone will (should) prevent you from doing anything dastardly.

    2. You are assuming that the sellers are not acting in their own best interest by assuming that you could make their situation better, when the truth is you are projecting what may or may not happen if you did something else. You don't really know if the other buyer would actually be ready to buy that house, or wouldn't say a bigger number to get you down the road and then give them less when you're out of the picture. You may be the best option they have of a bunch of bad options.

    3. Unless you are kicking little old widows out of their 40 year homes, most of the "equity" you're taking from the seller probably was never something they worked for in the first place, but simply beneficiaries of an appreciating market. 

    4. What's the difference between getting a great deal on a house and getting a great deal on a used car, or something at the flea market? It's only factors of zero. If you go to the flea market, and you someone selling something for $20 and you know a guy that would give them $30, do you call that guy? 

    5. By assuming that you are fleecing the seller, you are also assuming that the seller is a stupid or ignorant person, unable to function in a voluntary market, in need of a guardian to protect their own interests. That's a real paternalistic attitude that is demeaning to the seller. Maybe they don't need as much as you can get them. Maybe they want something quick and easy. Maybe they feel bad asking for more because they know things you don't know (and they're not willing to share). Maybe they inherited the property. 

    I don't think there's anything wrong with the way you're feeling. You can always offer more money to ease your conscience if you still believe you can make a profit, just less so of one. There's nothing stopping you from paying $5, $10, or $100k more than the seller is willing to accept except your own self interest. If you need to overpay to feel good about the deal, there's nothing wrong with that - but you don't need to rationalize it by projecting your feelings about the deal on to the seller or the business as a whole. 

    I don't know what field you worked in before coming into RE. I have worked some type of public service my entire career, and my experience is everyone from the shark capitalist to the church-going widow understands their immediate (maybe not long-term) self-interest better than anyone else. Every time I have thought someone was acting not in their own best interest, it was always a long view, not a short view. 

    So for myself, I ask only the questions I want to know the answers to, and generally those don't include anything about the other person's well-being. It's not my responsibility to take care of the world, just to try to do good things and be a decent person while I'm here. 

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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @David Faulkner:

    I really appreciate the honest and transparency of the OP here. Lots of people responding with justifications for the profits he is making, and they may be absolutely right (for them), but at the end of the day we each have to look at ourselves in the mirror. If you consistently don't feel good about what you are doing then I'd take a step back. Go on vacation, leave your electronics, go backpacking or something else remote. Do it before this drains you of your passion for RE. When you come back if you still feel the same way, then change your business model. You're a smart guy, I'm sure you can figure out a way to make money in REI while avoiding the stuff you don't feel right about ... it may end up being a breakthrough you need to become even more successful.

     I agree with this post, but I also agree with the "justification" posts. You, as the buyer, have absolutely no way of knowing what the seller is receiving in the transaction outside of the cash you are offering. You are assuming that because money is the primary motivator for you in the transaction, that it is the primary motivator for the seller as well, and thus it is a zero sum game - you win, they lose. 

    The reality is that sellers receive all kinds of benefits, and consequences from selling, and you might actually rob them of some of the benefits, or saddle them with some of the consequences, by your noble endeavor of tossing them more money. For example, what if the seller only wants $100k because they believe that the foundation is shifting for some reason that no one will ever be aware of through disclosure, and you come along tossing them $120k? They may walk away with a heavy guilt burden, because they were "self-policing" by reducing their price to what they felt was fair given the condition of the house. 

    The point is that you can always do what you think is right. If you feel bad because you're squeezing military widows for an extra 5 grand, knowing they have nowhere else to turn, maybe you should feel bad. But if you're just making honest, open deals, have some respect for the buyer that you are not proxy to all the reasons they want to sell, and all the benefits they are receiving at $X dollars. I saw a guy on TV once that won $10 million in the lottery, and he said it was the worst curse he had ever received and was in the process of giving it all away. 

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  • Rick SantasierePro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Granby, CT · Member since 2015 · 695 posts · 317 votes
    10y

    Kyle,

    Great honest post. I admire your integrity. You sound like you are good at what you do. Why not work with your accountant on the solution. How about you "give back" at the end of the year to each "deal," based on a % of two things: how well YOUR business did, and a % of the deal itself. You could take the deduction (I am not an accountant), and you could change the loves of every single person you "helped." That would be noble, and could even motivate you to do even greater things in the years to come!!

  • Chad CarsonPro Member
    Investor · Clemson, SC · Member since 2008 · 198 posts · 156 votes
    10y

    Hey @Kyle Bigger. You're a big man for struggling with this topic and for putting it out to the BP community. Kudos for that.

    I think @Brian Burke and others made some good points.

    I have been in the business 13 years and have struggled with the same issue at times.

    You mentioned that this is a recent phenomenon, but I think it's always true that a seller who cashes out at a discount could do a lot better. No matter the market.

    I think short of not doing it anymore (always your prerogative), a practical solution I have come up with is moving towards more full disclosure.  

    Why not clearly say to sellers, "you can make a lot more money taking your chances with a realtor or the open market." Why not talk them out of selling to you?  

    I've tried this. It's very interesting. 

    When you try to talk someone out of it, they start to tell you whether they really need you or not.  It also makes it clearer to you the value you're adding to their life when they tell you why they do need you.

    I have a hunch that if what you're saying is true - that other investors will easily pay $10-50,000 more than you, just as fast, for cash, with little or no contingencies, you won't have to worry about this dilemma.  The market will take care of it for you as competition reduces the numbers of deals you can buy anyway.

    But if you ARE still getting deals, maybe you are offering something of real value.  Maybe those other people can't do what you can do.  Maybe the certainty you bring to the table really is better than the others. 

    If all else fails, before ditching the business, take a break from the super distressed owner occupant type sellers.  Work retiring landlord lists, estates, short sales, bank owned properties, etc.  I don't see anyone feeling sorry for banks:) 

    Thanks for bringing up the issue Kyle. It's a good one for the BP community to tackle.

  • Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2015 · 98 posts · 59 votes
    10y

    A long time ago I was on the other side of the table.  No job, working like crazy on a "business" with no income in sight, and caught in a downward spiral of depression, denial, and unopened pink letters.

    Selling my house the conventional way wasn't an option. As my first house (and being a single guy) I had torn out and replaced all the wiring and half the plumbing. No permits, and I never finished the "aesthetic" parts.  I had another project where I tore out a gable and meant to build a custom attic vent, but never got it done.  While in the attic I slipped and knocked a big hole in the ceiling. And so on.

    So although I couldn't make payments on the house, I was mentally and financially unable to deal with the situation.  Then some guy showed up and offered me cash for the title.  I don't remember how much, probably like $3k. 

    I took it.  And to this day I'm glad I did.  Yes, on paper it was a terrible deal for me and a pretty sweet deal for him, but that didn't matter.  I regret getting *into* that situation, but getting out of it was an indescribably huge relief. I feel thankful that that guy did the legwork to find me and helped me make a few grand more than if I let the house go back to the bank.

  • Lake Jackson, TX · Member since 2013 · 119 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    Sounds like a great "problem"to have. If you dont buy it someone else will or back to the  bank. Plus its just buisness be transparent and roll with it.

  • Real Estate Investor · Desoto, TX · Member since 2013 · 560 posts · 528 votes
    10y

    I appreciate your honesty and willingness to open yourself to shots from all sides for the sake of expressing what is on your mind. In my little opinion, so much of the direct to seller game and making big profits is based on connecting the educated buyer with the uneducated seller. It happens in other industries as well. I do believe that investors help a lot of people with tough situations but a lot of the game is catching that person who does not know the value they are holding and are desperate. IMO, people with decent financial education and understanding don't thrown away all of their equity. They may not be educated real estate investors but they are educated enough to explore options to maximize their return. There are millions and millions of people that are uneducated about finances and ripe for the picking. This lack of financial education is what probably got them in a situation to make them believe their only option is to sell their house fast for cash for 50% of value. 

    I bet the number of times an experienced investor here on BP has sold their property to a wholesaler for 50% of value is few to none. I bet the number of times an experienced investor here on BP has deeded their house to a stranger and trusted them to take over payments is few to none. I bet the number of times an experienced investor here on BP has put a bunch of money into a deal with a stranger with no control or security is few to none. Why is that? 

  • Edmonton, Alberta · Member since 2015 · 2 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Hi Kyle,

    I am new here but I can give you some advice and what I have gone through in my investment career. 

    What you could do is partner up with the sellers and share in the equity  or better yet send them a bonus cheque and tell them your sharing in the profits or want to pay it forward. There is still a way of making money and feeling good about it. With my experience sometimes people are so stressed and just want out that they want you to take their problem away for them and no amount of coaching or guidance will help when someone just wants to get out from that house payment "stress" 

  • Rental Property Investor · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2015 · 149 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Hi, @Kyle Bigger.  Interesting thread, and thank you for being transparent.  That is not an easy thi to do, even in a relatively sterile environment like BP.  

    @Brian Burke eloquently stole my thunder.  What I'd add to the mix is that I could see myself happy to sell a house for considerably less than market value, given the right situation - and I'm speaking about today, as an informed investor / seller.  I wouldn't at all feel taken advantage of, either, if I needed to get "out from underneath" a property, and you were there with a fist full of cash and offered a quick, painless close!  @Jeff S. gave a great example of his experience, and then there are all of the tired landlords out there that have had enough with replacing burned carpets, repeated evictions, police showing up at the house for domestic violence complaints (yes, these were some of my tenants).   You may learn a seller's motivation in the interview, but if you haven't lived it, you don't know how grateful they can be to walk away clean, quick and with cash.  It's true that they could get a "better deal," financially, but many times the cost of waiting for that extra money outweighs the financial benefit... It's not always about the money...

    I also like @Chad Carson's approach, and it's important to give the seller this information... If you are really concerned for the seller, do what you can to educate them, and then step back and give them time to digest.  At the end of the day, We are in a position to help sellers find a solution to their problem, and the solution just might be sell the home at retail through an agent.  No worries, just make the connection if you aren't an agent, then move on (collect a bird dog fee from the agent, and sleep with a clear conscience).  Sadly, not everyone negotiates from a position of integrity, but if you do, I think you should feel confident that you are helping the seller, the future buyer, and in many situations, the neighborhood... One house at a time.  

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