Do you suck as an investor? You know what I mean, are you an investor who just sucks knowledge and resources from others without giving anything in return? Do you expect others to just impart their experience and knowledge to you simply because they have it and you want it? Here is an example, would you ask a fellow investor for the specific documents that they use for free that they have paid hundreds of dollars to a lawyer to create? Would you take an investors time and ask them to teach you for free? Would you ask other investors for all of their contacts that they use in their business that have taken them years to vet because you are new in town and you want to get started? Are you an entitled investor who thinks others should give because they have and you don’t? For those that have been approached by an investor like this, what was your experience like?

@Shiloh Lundahl I really don't get the point of this thread. I am not one of those people and don't take offense to your post what so ever, but at the same time, I don't see the point of it. Like others have mentioned, these forums and website are full of new investors that are looking for answers. They probably don't even know the effort that you went through to get to where you are, or that you even paid hundreds of dollars for a few pieces of paper. You think they "suck" and are "cheap" but maybe they are just ignorant to the efforts behind what they are asking for. Are there some new investor bad apples out there? Sure, but I'm sure there are some more experienced people out there trying to take advantage of the newer folks too. If you expect something in return for what they are asking, why not just tell them that? Educate them on the effort it took to get what they are asking, or ignore it if you really can't stand it and think they are leaching. I would hope that threads like this never discourage people from reaching out for help or posting questions.

Oh- you mean an entitled taker. Lots of those on here. I've had to amend my profile to appear like an old leave me alone grump because of this. Didn't start out that way. Learned behavior. I get at least 3 colleague requests a week from folks I don't know wanting to go deep into seller financing, or LOs, my contracts, contacts, etc. They think saying 'hi' at the beginning of the 3 paragraph question is enough for me to guide them for weeks through things that took me years of dedicated education to master. Funny thing is - they will find me through a related thread I wrote in and they didn't even bother to vote on the post that prompted them to find me! Because of this or no message at all with the request I deny at least 5 to 1, but I didn't start out intending it to be this way. Learned behavior. @Jd Martin did deep requests pick up for you after your awesome podcast? I bet it did. 3rd reason for me against being on it. Cheers!

"We make a living by what we get but we make a life by what we give." Winston Churchill Just say no when they cross the line. You also never know who may be your next bird dog or private investor too...there are ways to make this a win/win.

why join a community built for sharing info and experience if not to share your experience? It seems like you're guilty of the same thing you're accusing others, which is, or could be, learning off the backs of others while not sharing what you've learned. Now that's pretty harsh of me. But I am in fact a newbie. I fit in the camp of everything to learn and not much to share. Mostly I feel like I should be a success myself before I go spouting off how intelligent I am and why someone should listen to me..., One thing I'll say here or repeat is that lots of things I've read about and thought I learned were not the same as buying my first "deal" or duplex I'm living in. I learned more by the experience, or at least I didn't truly understand the things I've read here on BP until I went out and took some action. So you feel like you're giving away what you worked hard for, but in fact, whoever receives the info has to still go out and apply it, which is guaranteed not to be as seamless and and easy for them as you imagine. That's been my experience on the newbie side

Is what you are complaining about different than what you do? As an investor I hope you are trying to buy properties from someone at X minus 40% (getting a discount (plug any %)). Is that "entitled investor" just trying to get a document for X-100%? Wouldn't you try to buy properties for X-100% if you could? The only difference is the FMV of what you are trying to obtain. Like the sellers you negotiate with, all you can do is say no, I want X or no I want X-10% or No, your offer was insulting. But that decision is up to you. But don't knock them for trying to get the best deal they can.

"Bend over backwards to help your friends, but never forwards."--Terry D. Miller

I don't think it is a "suck" to ask for a contract, that can be emailed in less than 5 mins. I have experienced some of the scenarios in the past and they have irked me, but then I understand that I was in their shoes back in the day. I try to help them as much as I can, but try to do it in a teaching manner. for example, if they ask me for a contract I give them this resource: https://www.ok.gov/OREC/Contract_Forms_and_Related... And say "I use this a resource, anything more specific I would talk to a lawyer. Cheers!"

I have a bit of a different take on all this... I really don't care about sharing a document I spent money on. That money is gone, a sunk cost. I've already got my value out of it. I actually feel I'm getting more value out of what I spent by sharing it. I spent a few thousand for my partnership LLC agreement and have shared that a few times. Writing this post takes me as much time as that. I don't care about a request for a document that I spent money on in the past. The thing that gets me are the requests for my time. All the messages from tire-kickers who ask me to be their mentor and want hours of my time in person for a coffee, beer, or lunch. I respond to them all the same: "Most of the information and advice I can share is on my blog. Go read that and if you have any specific questions then feel free to email me." They often don't even do that @Jd Martin ! They won't spend the time to read my blog before asking me for my time. Crazy. Out of the 100+ people I've sent that to, only about 1-2 people have actually came back and said I've read your blog, and have this question. The other 98-99% were most likely pure tire kickers that will never do anything, but are requesting my time. I've already spent the time to put free info out there for everyone. At least check into it before expecting me to be your mentor or asking me to meet in person! So that became my way to weed out the tire-kickers after my podcast. . So to the people expecting/wanting a meet up and potential mentoring from me (or anyone else), at least put in some effort first. Don't email me saying you saw a post or listened to my podcast and can you buy me a coffee. I'm perfectly able to (and would much rather) buy my own damn coffee to not waste time with a tire-kicker. If you're serious, show your serious. You'll have a lot better odds that way.

Are you a CHEAP INVESTOR?

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

8y

@Michael Gansberg Thanks for your post. I loved it. You gave words to exactly what I am talking about in this post.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

8y

@JD Martin Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful contribution. I absolutely agree with each of the points you mentioned. Appreciation or gratitude is the one that stood out the most to me. I guess I’m just tired of people wanting something for nothing.

To get more detailed myself, my partner and I have started expanding our business this past year. But as is mentioned in the many podcasts and forums, unless you find investors you can only do so much on your own. So we actively look for investors who want to partner up and learn how to either flip a property in Arizona for a profit or create a cash flowing buy and hold deal. I let them know that by partnering with us they will gain 4 things:

1. Experience in doing a successful flip or buy and hold deal

2. Learn a system and get all of our contacts

3. Gain credibility in having participated in a successful deal which can help them get better terms on hard money

4. Money. They partner with us by coming in with the rehab costs. Then they get 10% APR on their money while it is invested. They get to learn and get paid for it.

I don’t know if any education program that after you graduate you get your money back plus 10% interest.

When I have mentioned this option to new investors, many times they are not ready to invest or they are disappointed because they think they should be able to get half of the profits because they lent 10 or 20k for the rehab and they want more of the deal. Sometimes they say things like I’m not interested in investing with you but will you tell me which banks give you those favorable terms and who your contractors are and will you look at this house and tell me if the numbers are good. My thought is “yes I will absolutely do that and a lot more when we do a deal together.”

I am open to your feedback whether you think I’m just selfish and non-sharing or whether you think I respect my time too much to give it away to those who who think they deserve a free ride.

Let me know your thoughts.

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Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

8y

@Account Closed Amen preacher man. Entitlement is a serious plague in America. I don’t mean to go too far off on a tangent, but here it goes...

My profession is a child and family therapist. I work a lot with families with kids that have severe entitlement issues. The kids expect the world to give them things because they simply exist. Oftentimes this belief starts in the home with the kids getting many expensive things without needing to earn them. The devastating part is the suddle hidden effect of lowered self-esteem from being robbed of the struggle to work and earn the things they want.

Where as it might seem like a good idea to give a child or someone something for free, in my experience they tend to appreciate it more when they have worked to earn it. (For more fun parenting tips feel free to google my name and therapist Mesa, Arizona. You’ll find some of my websites filled with therapy articles and parenting tips). Enjoy.

Ok, now we can get back to real estate.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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David S.

Investor · Prairieville, LA · Member since 2015 · 311 posts · 424 votes

8y

With this topic, I know that I will be in the minority on this.

Throughout the last 15 years, I have helped new investors out by providing them forms, advice and mentorship without expecting anything in return. I believe in paying forward without expecting anything in return.

Due to my strong independent streak, I am not really big on partnerships, although I have partnered with a few select people that I know. Therefore my business model is not predicated on partnering.

When unexpected help or knowledge comes your way, it is truly a great thing because you are not expecting it. I had this recently when going in a different direction in my investing. Being a seasoned investor, I thought I knew everything. Well, I was quite wrong. Another investor spent an hour with me on flipping and I was blown away by his knowledge and soaked it up. I learned more in that hour than I could learn in years! He is like me and did not expect anything in return. I am now mentoring him on landlording because he is just starting out in that area and I have given him some solid leads. Again, he was not expecting that. Now, this guy learned his trade by sharing 50% of his first four deals with another investor. He felt that was too high since he was already a home builder, and brought a lot to the table. Yet he was willing to share a lot of that knowledge with me. After 15 years, this is the first time signicant help has came my way and it is truly a beautiful thing.

Helping people out without expecting a quid pro quo is my philosophy. Anything coming back your way is just serendipitous.

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JD MartinBusiness Member

Moderator

Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Shiloh Lundahl:

@Account Closed Amen preacher man. Entitlement is a serious plague in America. I don’t mean to go too far off on a tangent, but here it goes...

My profession is a child and family therapist. I work a lot with families with kids that have severe entitlement issues. The kids expect the world to give them things because they simply exist. Oftentimes this belief starts in the home with the kids getting many expensive things without needing to earn them. The devastating part is the suddle hidden effect of lowered self-esteem from being robbed of the struggle to work and earn the things they want.

Where as it might seem like a good idea to give a child or someone something for free, in my experience they tend to appreciate it more when they have worked to earn it. (For more fun parenting tips feel free to google my name and therapist Mesa, Arizona. You’ll find some of my websites filled with therapy articles and parenting tips). Enjoy.

Ok, now we can get back to real estate.

Two of the biggest problems in this country today: sense of entitlement and a lack of any personal responsibility. And this cuts straight across political lines, from right wing conservative to left wing liberal. Everyone thinks something is "their right" and no one thinks they have any ownership of consequences.

In my day job I find it increasingly more difficult to hire entry level positions because everyone wants to start as a manager with a $50k opening salary.

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Vera Kirrane

Real Estate Agent · Auburn, MA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 8 votes

8y

@Shiloh Lundahl, in the situation you describer, where the person wanting to meet with you forgot his wallet, and you ended up paying, would your impression of the whole been different if in exchange for the info he bought lunch for you both? Even if you did not hear back from him after?
Honestly I am curious. If I arrive with questions, I figure that out of basic decency I'm picking up the tab if I have no information to share yet because I am a newbie.

0 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

8y

@Vera Kirrane Absolutely. If the new investor had invited me out for lunch I would’ve been happy to talk with him about deals that I had done and shared with him things that I had learned along the way.

When I want to meet with someone who has more experience than I have, I always ask them if I can buy them lunch. A lot of the limits and boundaries that I have learned have been from meeting with other investors and watching how they have responded to me.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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Clint Mackay

Draper, UT · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 1 vote

8y

For all those that might be misinterpreting what Shiloh Lundahl is saying in this post, I am one of the many recipients of his generosity. He freely gives to people at a scale that would make peoples heads spin. He has paid for training and knowledge for himself and others and never asked for anything in return. He has built his business and at the same time helped to build other’s businesses. I am not saying this so everyone stops having this discussion. I am saying it to give perspective and a clearer understanding to the frustrations of highly driven people that are forced to deal with people that talk a big game and never produce a result. How frustrating is it for a business man or woman to work tirelessly for decades to pass on a company to their child just to have the company fail under their carelessness. It is much the same topic here. You have to take great care with whom you devote your extra time and efforts. If they are wasting your time then they don’t respect what you will be sharing. I love coaching and helping people grow to achieve whatever their goal may be, but one thing I have learned as a coach is that people will only act when they want/need to. No amount of your time and your experience will change who a person is in their core. You could provide everything a newbie needs to buy their first “deal” and even drag them to the signing but if they aren’t fully vested in it enough to do it themselves, they would eventually fail. Share and impart as much as you feel comfortable doing, but make sure it is with a person that will not “suck” everything from you and anyone else they trample over to get to where they want to go. And for you exceptionally driven and giving people like Shiloh Lundahl, don’t give up on the good apples just because of a few rotten ones in the bunch. Thanks for not giving up!

1 Reply

Vera Kirrane

Real Estate Agent · Auburn, MA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 8 votes

8y

@Shiloh Lundahl, ok that sounds fair. And very good to know. I think we operate on the same principles. If you are ever in town, I would happily take you out for lunch!

0 Reply

John W.

Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 257 posts · 130 votes

8y

For the people that are like that, they likely won't make it far.

For people that have helped me along the way, I have not felt at ease unless I compensated them in some way for what they did for me.

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Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

8y

@Rob Beardsley reading back through the thread, I noticed that I forgot to answer your question. A way I add value to more experienced investors is I either by buying them lunch or dinner and chatting for a little while, by bringing them a deal and asking them to show me how they would work the deal and then sharing he profits, by bringing them money to go into a deal together, or by paying them to coach me.

That is how I would add value to a more experienced investor.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

8y

@Kurt Granroth I would not include you in the group of people who suck. Posting questions on the forums is great and there is nothing wrong with that. It is a great place to learn from people who want to share. It is when someone ask for things of value that others have paid for or they ask them to spend a lot of time teaching them or mentoring them and provide little to no value to the more experience investor. That is what I would consider sucking from others.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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