Are you a CHEAP INVESTOR?
Shiloh LundahlPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votesAre you a CHEAP INVESTOR?
Most Popular Reply
@Shiloh Lundahl I really don't get the point of this thread. I am not one of those people and don't take offense to your post what so ever, but at the same time, I don't see the point of it. Like others have mentioned, these forums and website are full of new investors that are looking for answers. They probably don't even know the effort that you went through to get to where you are, or that you even paid hundreds of dollars for a few pieces of paper. You think they "suck" and are "cheap" but maybe they are just ignorant to the efforts behind what they are asking for.
Are there some new investor bad apples out there? Sure, but I'm sure there are some more experienced people out there trying to take advantage of the newer folks too.
If you expect something in return for what they are asking, why not just tell them that? Educate them on the effort it took to get what they are asking, or ignore it if you really can't stand it and think they are leaching.
I would hope that threads like this never discourage people from reaching out for help or posting questions.
95 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes9y
@Austin Fruechting thanks for the comment. Great job by the way with your new 22 portfolio acquisition. That was awesome.
@Shiloh Lundahl I think we're all cheap to some extent.
- Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes9y
@Austin Fruechting - well said. So there IS a 'dark side' to being a podcast guest. It's not a primary consideration for my decision, but ranks up there as #3, maybe even #2. #1 is I don't have a why. Guests like you and @JD Martin with nothing else to sell have made me re-think the 'why would anyone do that?' question a bit, so thanks guys!
You are more generous with your contracts and agreements than I can be, mostly because I developed and drafted 99% of mine myself. As a principal in a transaction, I can draft whatever I want. Once I share it, I can be accused of practicing law without a license. The downside risk of getting in trouble is real, where the upside gain of altruism and goodwill may or may not even be acknowledged. I'm batting about 20% even being appreciated when I have done it.
Here's what I do when folks want to meet for coffee/lunch to 'pick my brain.' I mention a book to read and tell them after they read it, they can meet me at a jobsite I'm working on to discuss it for 15 minutes. Bring knee pads because we'll be installing laminate, btw. You can bring us coffee there if you want to.
If I had a cool website and blog like you, I would do what you do and send them there. My numbers are the same as yours. Nobody will even read the book. Too bad, too, because in that couple/few hours we could be working shoulder to shoulder, they could have asked whatever they wanted pretty much. I know I would have jumped at that chance when I was new.
Here's to you and JD and @Linda Weygant and @Jay Hinrichs and @Joshua D. for doing the podcast with no ulterior motives of book or coaching sales. You guys rock!
- New Iberia, LA · Member since 2017 · 133 posts · 89 votes9y
If you're a noobie and you know it clap your hands?
I too am new and like several others, I am trying to find my footing here on the forums and in this endeavor called Investing. I will bet money at some point I will ask a dumb question or miss something that is quite obvious to others but that is part of learning. If I succeed at turning this want into action and action into profit and knowledge I will be more than happy to share. Until then you all are stuck with just one more wannabe!
However, as the original poster stated some people do suck. I manage a group of people now that suck.....suck the energy out of me every day with questions and needs and wants but I love them all the same because at the end of the day if they don't get what the goal is or they can't help us achieve it then it's as much or more my fault then it is theirs.
Sometimes with those who are the worst of the worst, you do have to cut them loose but not until you at least attempt in engage them and try and turn them around. So with that, I suggest you ask us newer folks who want to learn "what is it that we as noobies can do in return?" or "if we would like to learn something in exchange for time?". Not everyone will take you up on that offer, but the ones that do could eventually be of great value to you in the future.
Explain up front what you value and why and set the framework for the working relationship up front. If you don't want to deal with it then just say that. Or is it time for time, time for work, or just pay it forward. Whatever it is you value as a mentor, because face it if someone is asking you for help you are mentoring them, then make sure they are willing and wanting to pay the price before you pass on your valuable knowledge.
The forums are great places for knowledge but at my early stage, it's a bit like digging for gold. Sometimes you find great nuggets of information that you can relate with or maybe even apply. Other things that may be gold go undiscovered. Being able to ask someone questions and have that interaction is like finding a metal detector. It may not always lead you right to the gold but it's a lot quicker. The first talk may need to be to make the prospect understand that the metal detector is almost as valuable as the gold!
Ok enough rambling for now.
- Rental Property Investor · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2015 · 492 posts · 234 votes9y
No.
If someone approached me asking for these things my response may be different than others.
I wouldn't shut them out and say no. I would ask more about them. Chances are they have some sort of information that I don't. For example, maybe they're from another market that I may be interested in? They could give me insights on neighborhoods. Exchange info for info.
- Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 388 posts · 563 votes9y
Great post, @Shiloh Lundahl.
I've been building my team, knowledge base, and physical assets since 2003. Occasionally- far more often when I was a more active poster- I'd get messages like that. I'll paraphrase.
What they write:
Hugh G. Mooch: "Hey man, I notice you invest in xxx region, I was thinking of doing that too! Now that we're sympatico, can you send me the names/email addresses/phone numbers of your closing attorneys, your eviction attorneys, your land use attorneys, your managers, your general contractors, and anyone else with whom you've done business and had a positive experience? Wouldja throw in a brief synopsis about each of them and what they generally charge as well. Thanks!" (I actually got one like this a month ago. The writer said he'd "consent" to a phone call with me. How'd I get so lucky, I wonder!?!?)
How I respond:
Me: "Thank you for your email, Mr. Moocher. I've spent fourteen years investing and learning how to do this well, building my assets, my team, and other intangible assets collectively known as "goodwill." I've poured blood, sweat, and tears into this endeavor, raising it from scratch and turning it into a living, breathing thing.
"Now, after 14 years, I find myself in a bit of a catch-22. You're emailing me because you believe I'm a successful businessman, with skills and knowledge you'd like to acquire. But a successful businessman would never give away his secrets for free, right? Surely, if I gave you this information, you'd know that I couldn't possibly be successful, and you could not rely on the information tendered. This paradox regretfully prevents me from being of any assistance to you."
Love,
Michael
(tee-hee)
- 9yLinda WeygantPro MemberInvestor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Steve Vaughan - You're welcome Steve. Being a complete and total introvert, I had no plans to ever be on the podcast. Mindy kinda twisted my arm, to be honest. Said it would be a favor to her. I agreed and you can tell when you watch my podcast how nervous I am for the first half. I finally kinda settled down part way through, but I was definitely waaaayyyy outside of my comfort zone.
When I told @Meghan McCallum that I was going to be on the podcast, she warned me (based on her own experience from being on the podcast) that my phone and message box would flood with contacts. I didn't believe her. After all, why would anybody want to ask me stuff when I just spouted off everything I know in the hour of the podcast. :-) She actually laughed at me, rolled her eyes and may have called me a few unpleasant things (like naive). (Love you Meghan!!!)
While I did get a handful of people just wanting some extra brain picking time, I was amazed at the people who wanted to interview me to see if I'd be a good fit as their CPA. THAT I definitely wasn't ready for, since we only spent a short time on my podcast talking about taxes and related stuff. I've had to delay talking to those folks since I'm trying to clear a regular backlog of work that I accumulated before the podcast even aired (working solo can suck sometimes). But I hope to be able to conduct those conversations in the next few weeks.
While being on the podcast can be a boost to your business (expected or otherwise), I think the whole purpose of BP is knowledge sharing and I know that I prefer the podcasts (and forum posts. And blog posts) where the purpose is simply to share knowledge and not with an ulterior profit motive.
- Investor · ocala, FL · Member since 2012 · 17 posts · 6 votes9y
This has turned out to be an interesting thread.
Thank you @Shiloh Lundahl for the feedback. I will keep plugging away with a goal of being able to contribute to the forums. And I learned how to vote.
Funny post @Michael Gansberg. If I ever come across like Mr. Moocher with my questions i hope someone is available to dope slap the back of my head so i get a little common sense back in me.
Shiloh and Michael, i tried to mention you but it didn't come through and editing doesn't seem to allow a mention edit. Oh well, I will continue to contribute, hope fully the quality will improve with practice.
Loyd
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 17k+ votes9y
Thanks for the kind comments all (you guys know who you are!).
I think it was @Loyd Frazier above who asked "What can us newbies do to provide value?"
My thoughts in no particular order:
1. Respect - Respect the time of the people that you ask for help. Everyone has their real estate investing/work, and some do other stuff, and most also have families, hobbies, second jobs, primary jobs, etc. It's great to find someone that's willing to help you, but be mindful of the imposition and don't take it personal if the person says "Hey, I'd love to help, but that's pretty involved and I don't have the time right now".
2. Initiative - No one wants to spend their valuable time on time wasters, and a significant percentage of the population are dreamers rather than doers. Everything is a microcosm of the society at large, so it is reasonable to expect (and I think posting and participation numbers bear this out) that a good number of BP posters will be here for a week/month and then gone into the abyss. So if you're in the dreamer stage, recognize it as so before asking others to give of their time to help you.
3. Self-reliance - Don't ask busy people to get/give you things that you can get on your own in 30 seconds. No one wants to be a babysitter.
4. Feedback - One of the things that is maddening to me - both here and through e-mail and in-person - is when you give time, thoughts, advice, strategy, etc, and you never get any feedback from the person who asked. No investor is infallible, and what if the advice or strategies we are recommending/promoting have flaws or flat-out don't work any more? One of the things we (more experienced investors) would gain is direct feedback from others who have tried out suggestions and found ways they could be improved or reasons why they don't work, or don't work as good, any more. Look at how many posts people come looking for answers - sometimes really good threads - and you never hear back from the original poster on the resolution of the issue, what they tried, etc.
5. Appreciation - If someone helps you out, recognize it. Yes, vote on their posts. Call them out and thank them. Call them on the phone and thank them. Send them a fruit basket at Christmas. Whatever. The point is, be grateful for the assistance and think about how you can thank them. Buying me lunch or sending me a fruit basket is never going be a quid pro quo for helping you get a deal worth thousands, but that's not the point. If you get assistance, honor it.
I don't think anyone that's experienced on here expect new investors to be flooding the air waves with useful stuff - everyone knows you have to start somewhere, and what a great platform this is to be able to have access to people who have been there before.
Skyline Properties - Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 17k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Loyd Frazier:
This has turned out to be an interesting thread.
Thank you @Shiloh Lundahl for the feedback. I will keep plugging away with a goal of being able to contribute to the forums. And I learned how to vote.
Funny post @Michael Gansberg. If I ever come across like Mr. Moocher with my questions i hope someone is available to dope slap the back of my head so i get a little common sense back in me.
Shiloh and Michael, i tried to mention you but it didn't come through and editing doesn't seem to allow a mention edit. Oh well, I will continue to contribute, hope fully the quality will improve with practice.
Loyd
And there you go - I gave you your first two votes for being humble and honest :)
Skyline Properties Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Tom R.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Tom R.:
I think you are missing the point of this community. This is a place for people to share their experience and knowledge. If you don't want to share then what are you doing here?In his post he says "Would you ask other investors for all of their contacts that they use in their business that have taken them years to vet because you are new in town and you want to get started?" and "Here is an example, would you ask a fellow investor for the specific documents that they use for free that they have paid hundreds of dollars to a lawyer to create?"
I think that gets into copyright and work product. Microsoft doesn't give their code away freely to Apple, nor should they just because they both belong to a common community.
The key word is ask. Most people asking have no idea of the time and money spent acquiring these things. And you dont have to provide these things just because they ask .
Hi Thomas, can I have a copy of your leads list that you are working on and how much you are willing to offer on each one? Just askin'
No you may not. Wow that was easy.
I'm always skeptical about posts like these but I get sucked into them when I'm supposed to be doing research lol. Honestly, I get it and I can see why people are put off by giving or at least giving so freely but I feel personally that a lot of lessons learned with investing, should also be applied towards those you meet. I guess my frustration is that I run into 100 belittlers for every 1 amazing person that could have potentially saved my hundreds if not thousands of dollars. I understand that everyone has spent their money and made mistakes but we should be progressive versus saying I had to do this, so you should suffer too. It would be as if I invented something as innovative as electricity then telling my neighbor, give me something for it or figure it out yourself. (Although there are....THOSE neighbors that maybe need to be told that). I would not want someone to go through some of the things I went through because I rucked it myself. Grant it I only own a couple properties, I spent a ton of money and time away from my family doing things I felt could have been streamlined better but was overwhelmed with the lack of time in a single day to figure it out and I couldn't possibly research everything at one time. The result is that I made dumb mistakes that are paying dividends.
There are a lot of risks you take, taking this road. One of which is giving without receiving an immediate return. Rather a return over time as someone becomes up to speed on what you're doing and could potentially help you out. The market is ever-changing and inflated in most areas so that means the solutions are harder and you're catching up on years of new laws and changes versus already being involved. I'm trying to be in a position to help you but I need help to get there. I really loved everyone's input and appreciate this site a lot. It's done a lot for me. I can ramble but I'm going to get back to work lol.
- There's people who are going to do this and there are people that aren't. Then there are people who will buy things so they look good. The purchase doesn't make any money but hey I've got a four Plex. Hobbiest investors who want to pick your brains and wonder after one time of sending letters or putting out signs why they haven't got a deal yet. I've seen a million come and go. None of them are consistent and believe that R E is a get rich, and no effort needed biz. Good luck with that.
- Specialist · CHICAGO · Member since 2015 · 680 posts · 650 votes9y
@Linda Weygant thank you so much for bringing me into this conversation. And thanks for being so amazing in what you do. People are wise to fight for your services *Hey BP here's a tip for you- Linda like to be partnered in on deals...she'd rather work with you than just for you, so have a big project that your really need someone system and detail oriented??? Maybe looking for EVERY tax advantage and fiscal advantage of your newest deal? Maybe you can get your foot in the door with what SHE wants...not just with what you want...just sayin'* (Linda, you can punch me later)
@Austin Fruechting man, you nailed it. And I consider myself VERY willing to give my time to others. Just follow through and follow up. If some new investor wants to get my time then BUG me about giving it to you. I don't sit around always thinking about who I can help today. Ask (nicely and with something to offer) and you'll likely receive.
@Steve Vaughan VERY good point on sharing docs. I had offered to share parts, passages, ideas, and even addendums with people who have asked from INSIDE the state the contract was drafted for. But, we live in a litigious society. I want to help all the time...but that never grants you the freedom from being hurt by such altruism ANY of the time.
To wrap up: I used to be very anti-coaching. Anti-system sales, anti-book pusher...But, then I realized that I was just as much as a know it all as the pushers of info..worse. I was the pusher of my own opinion! Now, if people approach me to coach them I walk them through a list of questions that best lets me know if 1) we will work well together 2) I can deliver what you need 3) I am the best person for the job 4) that you will follow through and actually profit.
Cheap mentors:
Books
Podcasts
Blogs
New guy know-it-alls who know nothing
Old people looking for the new guy to be HER/HIS exit strategy* but you work for nothing and learn it all for free (one must also search out current information from clubs or BP bc many mom and pops don't run their business AS a business)
Buying an investing system (to a point) to get you started on the right track
REI CLUBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Peer to peer mentorship and partnering is SOOOOOOO powerful!
*means best option
Coaches with the most value:
Local exports who do what you want to do in your back yard (make them partners?)
A successful investor who customizes your learning platform and pay structure based on symbiotic needs/wants
If you want a coach bc you want some hand holding...go get it. But only if you are actually going to move forward with your investment career. Its never easy.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 6 votes9y
I am a newbie here, and I felt a little bit offended by the original post. Not that it describes me, but it gave me the impression of "pros" vs "newbies" kind of. I would suggest that you remember the days when you were a newbie in real estate.
Anyways, I would strongly recommend for every one to read the book "Go Giver" by Bob Burg and John David Mann.
Best,
Konti
- Investor · Post Falls, ID · Member since 2016 · 606 posts · 699 votes9y
I get frustrated when different posters ask the same questions -- "Help! My tenant did not pay rent this month. What should I do?" or "Help! How do I screen tenants?" or some variation of the above. I believe it is the poster's responsibility to use the resources available on this site (the sticky notes, the form/files section, the search function, webinars) before they ask. And for heaven's sake -- shouldn't they have thought these common scenarios through BEFORE becoming a LL? I think it is just easier for them to post and hope an answer drops into their lap, rather than doing a bit of research on their own. The boards should be for the odd situations or extreme cases that we all can learn from.
I get bored giving the same [sage] advice, so I find myself responding less and less.
That being said, I did "steal" an awesome lease presented to us as a part of due diligence in shopping for multifamily. So I guess I am not perfect, either.
- Deland, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Shiloh Lundahl:
Do you suck as an investor? You know what I mean, are you an investor who just sucks knowledge and resources from others without giving anything in return? Do you expect others to just impart their experience and knowledge to you simply because they have it and you want it?
Here is an example, would you ask a fellow investor for the specific documents that they use for free that they have paid hundreds of dollars to a lawyer to create?
Would you take an investors time and ask them to teach you for free?
Would you ask other investors for all of their contacts that they use in their business that have taken them years to vet because you are new in town and you want to get started?
Are you an entitled investor who thinks others should give because they have and you don’t?
For those that have been approached by an investor like this, what was your experience like?
Yes I am please email me all documents you have which you think I could ever use
Thank you
- Investor · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2014 · 176 posts · 54 votes9y
Scratching my head trying to remember if I've been a "sucker" or not? If I have it was only after I bought my first investment property. Most of my knowledge has come from actually doing the work. Found my lawyer and one insurance agent from the investor I bought my first fourplex from. Found my insurance broker on BP. I asked a question and he probably had a keyword setup, responded to my question, and reached out afterwards.
I'll respond to questions here and there. I've been to a few meet ups and always find talking to those just starting out rewarding and I find I actually like talking about real estate. I'll freely share stradegy and answer all the "how'd you do its" but I only share actual docs or contacts with other true investors. That or I wait until someone has really committed to something and they need info. No info for tire kickers.
That said, I'd rather "help" 10 people and only have 1 utilize the info than to cross my arms and share nothing.
Good Thread!
- Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2017 · 69 posts · 64 votes9y
Originally posted by @Casey Miles:
Scratching my head trying to remember if I've been a "sucker" or not?
I hear that! I'm a complete noob and so have been reading voraciously and peppering people with questions. Shiloh has been -- by far -- one of the most helpful and informative veterans to my many questions. So to see this thread from Shiloh talking about suckers... hmm... better think hard if I should be included in that list or not!
- Real Estate Investor · Las Cruces, NM · Member since 2016 · 186 posts · 173 votes9y
As a noob, I am definitely sensitive to this. I have a flip partner now and he is actually very anti-partner but he took me on because I brought him a deal. He looked at it and said it is good but let me show you something better. He happened to have a really nice deal he could not jump on because he only had half the cash. I put up the other half and we agreed to 60% of profits to him and 40% to me. I called him back the next day and said, "hey you are doing all the work, finding the deal and managing rehab, how about I take 35% instead and you get 65%? And I am happy to do this in perpetuity or until you think I have brought enough value to earn 50%." He didn't say no to that of course lol. Oh and we are under contract and I have learned a ton!! You gotta bring value!!
- Flipper/Rehabber · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 6 votes9y
Originally posted by @Audrey Ezeh:
As a noob, I am definitely sensitive to this. I have a flip partner now and he is actually very anti-partner but he took me on because I brought him a deal. He looked at it and said it is good but let me show you something better. He happened to have a really nice deal he could not jump on because he only had half the cash. I put up the other half and we agreed to 60% of profits to him and 40% to me. I called him back the next day and said, "hey you are doing all the work, finding the deal and managing rehab, how about I take 35% instead and you get 65%? And I am happy to do this in perpetuity or until you think I have brought enough value to earn 50%." He didn't say no to that of course lol. Oh and we are under contract and I have learned a ton!! You gotta bring value!!
You are so right Audrey. Good for you. Other people may interpret what you did for foolishness, but I believe that you will reap more in the future. This guy will love working with you and you are going to learn in a shorter time from him that you would learn by yourself.
- Real Estate Investor · Las Cruces, NM · Member since 2016 · 186 posts · 173 votes9y
Originally posted by @Konti Leci:
Originally posted by @Audrey Ezeh:
As a noob, I am definitely sensitive to this. I have a flip partner now and he is actually very anti-partner but he took me on because I brought him a deal. He looked at it and said it is good but let me show you something better. He happened to have a really nice deal he could not jump on because he only had half the cash. I put up the other half and we agreed to 60% of profits to him and 40% to me. I called him back the next day and said, "hey you are doing all the work, finding the deal and managing rehab, how about I take 35% instead and you get 65%? And I am happy to do this in perpetuity or until you think I have brought enough value to earn 50%." He didn't say no to that of course lol. Oh and we are under contract and I have learned a ton!! You gotta bring value!!
You are so right Audrey. Good for you. Other people may interpret what you did for foolishness, but I believe that you will reap more in the future. This guy will love working with you and you are going to learn in a shorter time from him that you would learn by yourself.
Thanks much!! I've never been afraid to look foolish :)
- Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes9y
@Audrey Ezeh That’s awesome. It reminds me of the first time I met with @Marty Boardman from the first podcast on BiggerPockets. He was gracious enough to meet with me for lunch. I asked him how somebody can learn from him and he told me they either need to bring him cash for deal or bring him a deal. I learned a lot from what he told me that day about respecting people’s time experience.
When you bring value to the deal you don’t come across as entitled. In fact you come across as respectful in my opinion. Splitting the profits to where the experienced investor gets the lion’s share reinforces your respect and appreciation towards the more experienced investor for their time and experience. Good on you.
- Real Estate Investor · Las Cruces, NM · Member since 2016 · 186 posts · 173 votes9y
Originally posted by @Shiloh Lundahl:
@Audrey Ezeh That’s awesome. It reminds me of the first time I met with @Marty Boardman from the first podcast on BiggerPockets. He was gracious enough to meet with me for lunch. I asked him how somebody can learn from him and he told me they either need to bring him cash for deal or bring him a deal. I learned a lot from what he told me that day about respecting people’s time experience.
When you bring value to the deal you don’t come across as entitled. In fact you come across as respectful in my opinion. Splitting the profits to where the experienced investor gets the lion’s share reinforces your respect and appreciation towards the more experienced investor for their time and experience. Good on you.
Thanks Shiloh, I appreciate it! That is exactly how I looked at it. I had to honor his experience (over 10yrs). I made it worth it for him by making it so he puts less money in and gets much higher ROI than if he went solo. It is a great win for me too because I really don't ever plan to manage a flip myself. I am far too busy with W-2, 3 little kids 6 and under, a great hubby and long term rentals. I still make a great return on my investment (much higher than just loaning him the money) but I don't have to do much work beyond creating flyers etc. It works great for both of us...
- Flipper/Rehabber · Riverside, CA · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 105 votes9yI try to help everyone as much as I can.
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.