Are you a CHEAP INVESTOR?
Shiloh LundahlPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votesDo you suck as an investor? You know what I mean, are you an investor who just sucks knowledge and resources from others without giving anything in return? Do you expect others to just impart their experience and knowledge to you simply because they have it and you want it?
Here is an example, would you ask a fellow investor for the specific documents that they use for free that they have paid hundreds of dollars to a lawyer to create?
Would you take an investors time and ask them to teach you for free?
Would you ask other investors for all of their contacts that they use in their business that have taken them years to vet because you are new in town and you want to get started?
Are you an entitled investor who thinks others should give because they have and you don’t?
For those that have been approached by an investor like this, what was your experience like?
@Shiloh Lundahl I really don't get the point of this thread. I am not one of those people and don't take offense to your post what so ever, but at the same time, I don't see the point of it. Like others have mentioned, these forums and website are full of new investors that are looking for answers. They probably don't even know the effort that you went through to get to where you are, or that you even paid hundreds of dollars for a few pieces of paper. You think they "suck" and are "cheap" but maybe they are just ignorant to the efforts behind what they are asking for.
Are there some new investor bad apples out there? Sure, but I'm sure there are some more experienced people out there trying to take advantage of the newer folks too.
If you expect something in return for what they are asking, why not just tell them that? Educate them on the effort it took to get what they are asking, or ignore it if you really can't stand it and think they are leaching.
I would hope that threads like this never discourage people from reaching out for help or posting questions.
@Steve Vaughan You are a much more experienced investors and I. If I wanted to gain some of your wisdom, and I was in your area, I would invite you to lunch (which I would pay for of course) I would then let you know what I am doing in real estate and I would ask you if you had any tips or device that could help me with what I am doing. Then, if you told me that you had lease agreements and option agreements that were Dodd Frank compliant, then I would ask you if I could buy those documents from you. I would then thank you for your time. Later, I would mention you in a positive way in different forums or post thanking you and sharing how helpful you were to me.
To me, this is how a new investor contributes and doesn’t come across as a cheap investor or as someone who just sucks.
@Shiloh Lundahl I remember a recent thread that basically said "I don't know a thing about real estate, haven't done anything in it and might not, but what kind of money is everyone making and can you share your financial records with me." I thought that thread was awesome. ;-)
You probably won't find a cheaper person than me ever. even If someone tried selling me a BMW for $10, I would still ask for $5
On the flip side, it really depends on my involvement with that person and the competition around what I want. If it's someone that has information that's is useful but not necessary, I would totally try to get it for free. If I'm networking with someone I know is going to be a huge asset to me, I'll definitely try to give something back too.
Is some one one trying to use a lease that you paid for ?
I think there is a balance for "paying it forward"....this is true for life in general, I've had people in my life that have passed on their knowledge and wisdom with very little expectation of some benefit to them and if I can do the same for someone else then I feel like I should do it....up to a point. If I can help people not make the same mistakes as me, then I should do it....up to a point. I'm not going to hold your hand through everything and spend hours and hours answering questions or emails, unless there is truly some direct benefit to me....its all a matter of degree.
I love this forum in the fact that I can pick other peoples brains, so I can learn and not make the same mistakes. I would never consider taking up a lot of people's times or asking for lists/data/financial statements etc etc...that's stepping over the line
Asking about some of your contacts? I don't see that as a big deal to ask for a name or company that you have had good luck in working with in the past. If I can stop someone from getting screwed by some company I got screwed by, then why not? Like asking about who you have used as a lender in the past? Saying "Ive used Joe at Bank X, and have had good success" is better than saying " find your own lender and good luck on not getting screwed like I did"
Its a matter of degree and people need to respect boundaries of expecting others to commit a ton of time to walking you through REI
@Anthony Gayden I agree with you. I would never ask that from anyone. I can't speak to the intentions of someone in that situation, but if it were me I would just explain my problem with giving you the list. Maybe they don't realize it costs money. Maybe they didn't think about the fact that would put them into direct competition with you. I probably don't even know all the reasons why you wouldn't do that.
My point is: the way the initial post is worded made me feel embarrassed to ask questions if I have nothing to offer. I don't have anything to offer right now. When I get more experience, it will be my turn to give back. That is how I feel about it.
Stealing land from underneath you. Total crap as you say. If that happened to me I would definitely be pissed. I would probably start a new thread concerning that topic.
A lot of emotion in this thread, the written word is often read differently , then it was intended. The "investor" the OP was talking about is not the type of person that would even open this thread, let alone reply. Everyone is correct about the "investor" they are talking about, but they are not the same "investor". As stated above, their are many people between "total vampire" and "eager learner". The outliers exist but most are good people just trying to learn how they can start investing with as few mistakes as possible.
As far as cheap goes, I have bought nothing yet, so will have to let you know that later.
In his post he says "Would you ask other investors for all of their contacts that they use in their business that have taken them years to vet because you are new in town and you want to get started?" and "Here is an example, would you ask a fellow investor for the specific documents that they use for free that they have paid hundreds of dollars to a lawyer to create?"
I think that gets into copyright and work product. Microsoft doesn't give their code away freely to Apple, nor should they just because they both belong to a common community.
The key word is ask. Most people asking have no idea of the time and money spent acquiring these things. And you dont have to provide these things just because they ask .
I think that when anyone is in a position where they need to ask for something in this business (whether it's someone else's knowledge, paperwork, or any other resource) they should be willing to give something in return. This applies to newbies, experienced investors, anyone and everyone!
Everyone has heard the saying "there's no such thing as a free lunch" and it's true; I realize that someone had to pay for that contract, someone had to pay for that knowledge, someone had to pay with their blood, sweat and tears to gain the experience that I've attempted to draw from. I've asked for plenty through the years, but in return I've partnered and given both my time and my money to help those that I've asked.
I try to help others because I was helped in the past, and it's pretty easy to quickly identify those who want to use you and those who want to offer some benefit to you in return...you can cull the herd pretty quick.
BP created a forum for us "Experienced" Investors to give Charity in a very effecient manner.
When I'm busy, I let everyone know that you should read my post mostly because I'm posting so you I can transfer my experience and knowledge to you. So why do I need to repeat myself?
I have to agree with @Steve Vaughn.... really, if you are PMing me for information... at least vote on the posting that brought you here.
BUT, that being said, it's really nice that people would read some of your previous postings so that you don't wind up repeating yourself.
Between 2005 and 2014, I ran my own Teaching Classes to the general public as a Charity.
Since it was open to the public, there were a variety of students. Mostly poorer students but a few really wealthy ones that wanted to learn about Real Estate.
I taught that in order for you to attract others that you need in order to build a team of experienced with the needed resources, you have to bring soemthing to the table, especially if you are new and/or poor.
I'd like to share 2 of those experiences.
One of the students, let's call him Mustafa. Mustafa was an ex-convict who had a very difficult time as a child growing up in Harlem. Obviously, couldn't really get a well paying job, so he hustled on the streets selling Music CDs and incense. He built a business around that by hiring other homeless.
While he came in to my Charitable classes to learn Real Estate, I also taught how to trade stocks and options.
Mustafa loved to trade when he was exposed to it. He formed a group which were very understanding about his back ground and appreciated his Entrepreneural spirit.
The group formed an Investment Club, remained together and have done really well. I'm very proud of Mostafa and you cannot put a price on that kind of reward as a Teacher.
The next Student's name is Jermaine. He was one of the very first student I had. He loved both Real Estate and trading.
Unfortunately, Jermaine spent too much time dreaming about both and had difficulty with his Job. But he found my classes.
After a while, I saw that Jermaine was very intelligent despite not able to hold down his current mid-level position.
He took to the education, despite it being very difficult. He mastered it well.
So what did Jermaine do?! You would think after mastering my classes he would have done what I taught him to do. Instead, he bought the wrong property in 2007, he lost a lot of rent and his property devalued for years until it broke even around this year.
HOWEVER... he did realize his error and resistance to the education he was taught.
A few years back, he recognized that the kind of property I wanted the students to buy was in a hot neighborhood, Bed-Stuy Brooklyn.
His Father had a 3-Family Brownstone that he was selling cheaply to a tenant who was taking advantage of him.
Jermaine told me about it and I asked to speak with the Father. I negotiated a higher price than what was offered to him by his tenant by another $50k.
I purchased the property with several other students including Jermaine back in 2014.
That property was bought in 2014 for $900k. We renovated it for $375k so we were in it for $1.275k. It is now worth $2 Million an increase in appreciation of $725k in just 3 years. It cash flows over $2k per month.
While this was not my BEST deal, it comes pretty close to it.
Essentially, my charity gave me 2 kinds of rewards.... one is spiritual, the second is monetary.
BP is a GREAT forum for us and I'm glad it's here, "Suckers" and all.
@Shiloh Lundahl Haha, I encounter those all the time, someone messages me asking for my foreman's/subcontractor's number, because they think their 2 week job is very appealing to anyone and they will be giving him "thousands of dollars" for this job. Well yeah, half and half kinda off topic I'd guess, but we do spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (too many S's) every year just to keep these crew running. Common message is what methods or how a work is being done, I redirect them into a construction encyclopedia and read it, if it's not there, then ask me -- they never come back, guess they want a shortcut or don't want to spend the time and money learning it first hand. They ask for forms and contracts, I tell them go to staples and buy them, they're off the shelf, guess they don't want that either. No thank you, no vote, no feedback, leechers.
@Deren Huang you are correct, it isn’t much of a suck to ask for a contract that can be emailed in a few minutes. But let me describe the situation a little more.
This is what inspired the post. This past weekend I went to a 3-day real estate training that specializes in lease options. It was a great training. I met several investors and I had a great time learning. The content of the seminar focused on doing lease options. However, because of the Dodd Frank act, someone doing lease options needs to be careful not to break any laws that will carry hefty fines if the lease and the option documents are not written correctly.
During the training I networked with several investors and actually partnered with one of them on a deal we are doing in Apache Junction. After the weekend I met with two fellow investors I met from the training that seemed interested in partnering up on a deal. I took them to lunch and explained to them how partnering on a deal works with us and they eventually decided to pass on the partnering opportunity. Then they asked if I got the lease option documents and I told them that I purchased them at the training for $500. They then asked if I would share the docs with them. They also asked which banks I used to refinance our properties that gave us such favorable rates.
In other words, they stated that they didn’t want to do a deal with us but instead they just wanted me to share the docs that I just spent $500 for and they wanted me to share my contacts with them. They wanted all the benefits of partnering without contributing. And all this after I bought them lunch. This is what I would call cheap. This is what I would call sucking without contributing.
By the way, this isn’t the first time an investor has acted this way towards me. Thus the post.
@Thomas Greeley it isn’t wrong to ask questions on the forum. In fact, that is a perfect place for it. Investors who are interested in responding can share their experience and it is a way that they can advertise themselves. There is nothing wrong with that. But when you private message someone out of the blue asking for the name of the contractor they use without having built any relationship with them then you start to rub someone the wrong way. At least that is my feeling.
@Jered Souder freeloading is not getting the best deal someone can. Freeloading is freeloading.
@Tom R. I realIze that this is a community to share knowledge and experience. I think it is a great place for that and I have no problem with that.
I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of the post. I have nothing against newbies asking questions and learning as much as they can from the free resources. It’s just when they go beyond that and they want a specific person to give them something of value for free that I have a problem with.
For instance, there are different memberships on BiggerPockets. The regular membership, the plus membership, and the pro membership. The pro membership gives me some added benefits that the free membership and the plus membership do not get. It would be like you asking the owners of BiggerPockets to give you the added benefits of the pro membership without being willing to pay the $30 a month. To me that is entitlement thinking by someone who sucks.
This is a basic lesson from the book “The Richest Man in Babylon.” Before Arkad (the richest man in Babylon) was wealthy he acted as a scribe carving on clay tablets. A very wealthy man named Algamish asked him to have some tablets carved by a certain time but Arkad didn’t have them completed on time when the man came to pick them up. Arkad told Algamish that he would stay up all night carving the clay tablets until they were ready if Algamish would tell him how he too could become rich. Arkad completed he clay tablets and Algamish keep his end of the bargain.
This story teaches us that you need to give something in order to receive something. You can’t just expect others to give to you just because they have it so they should give it.
@Account Closed I just sent you a PM.
@Shiloh Lundahl Happens all the time. The key is intent.
Those who take only think about themselves. Don't respect anyone's time.
Though, there are others who may seek information but are respectful. Completely different.
It's all in the approach. :)
Excellent post for a learning investor and newly active in BP. I also struggle with asking and not giving back. I had no idea that voting for a post was so important to folks, i will start doing that. I have also sent a few blank colleague request by pressing buttons or the awkward "can we be friends" request because i didn't really know what to ask.
I was a long time free member of BP but infrequent user. I have made some changes and use BP for its intended propose and committed to reading forum post 30 minutes a night plus podcast and posting every other night. I even upgraded to Pro because of the value I am getting from BP members.
Turns out while i have allot to learn, I don't have much of anything to contribute on forums or to folks that have good info in the forums. Only a few post of "that is great thank you" and i started to feel like no help at all.
I do search the forums for questions to see if they are covered elsewhere (its not an easy flow for the BP newbie) and have never thought of asking someone for paperwork they have paid for. I also dont want to waste someones time asking questions around info that i never plan to use. Though admittedly most of my questions are pretty bad, poorly worded or just plain dumb.
So fellow investors i ask, what can a BP Newbie do to help show they appreciate the information and contribute to the forums for others?
@Ned J. I believe in the concept of hand holding. For me, when I am unsure about something, I feel more confident when I have someone holding my hand every step of the way. In fact, that is what our company offers. We offer hand holding to new investors to help them feel comfortable as they begin what is sometimes a scary experience jumping into real estate investing.
So handholding is not the issue for me. The issue is when I explain to someone that they can partner with us on a deal by coming in with the rehab costs and we will show them how to flip a property for profit or how to do a lease option with the property and they decline partnering up and helping with the rehab costs yet they still want the knowledge, the contacts, and the experience offered but without putting anything into a deal.
When I saw this post, my first thought was "heck yeah, I'm as cheap as they come!!!! Our tiny budgets and ways we save IMO is the best of the best!" ... but then I read your thread... I think what you meant by cheap is disrespectful or entitled. It's not cheap to ask for something for free, that someone else paid for, IMO it's rude! For someone to waste your time is again rude and disrespectful.
I'm just going to sound old, and say I think it's a millennial thing, where everyone shares everything, everything can be found on the internet, and the thought of paying for something you can get for free by asking, is absurd! I think the most perplexing thing, is that people who ask, probably don't think they are being rude at all! I don't think anyone here thinks of themselves as a freeloader, it's just a different mindset-- "you have this word document, doesn't cost you anything to share, why not ask for them to send it? I need it, it doesn't cost them anything but 2 minutes of their time to send it, and it'd help me"..... Doesn't make sense to me because I respect the time/money/value, but again it's just a different mindset then us.
Anyone who contacts me, I tell them I'd be happy to talk with them-- when we're working on a house, so come do some work with me at the house? They should know what it's like to start out, and unless you come from money, it's not just writing checks, it's hard, physical work. I have only had 3 people take me up, and the people who have-- have moved forward and bought real estate! I do this because I love talking with people, but it has to be a give/take, and it's the most realistic way I can show someone what it's like!
@Loyd Frazier great comment. I lov d the sincerity and humility.
This post is less about people reading posts and listening to podcasts and getting that information for free. It is more about coming across someone who is successful and thinking, I want to do what they are doing or have what they have so therefore I am just going to ask them to teach it to me or give it to me. Therein lies the problem.
If you use this website and find that it provides a lot of value, then becoming a pro member is another way to give back rather than just taking. It really is a mindset shift. I find people who are wealthy and not cheap are willing to pay for things of value. Cheap people want things for free and sometimes expect it especially when it is information.
@Linda S. I loved your comment. I have given into bragging a time or two when I have found a great deal and felt “heck yea, I got that for real cheap” and in fact, one of the ways investors make money in the business of real estate is to try to keep costs low. My contractor often says that I want a steak but I only want to pay for a hamburger, which I take as a complement as we both laugh.
The term rude or inconsiderate probably would have fit better.
The funny thing is, often when people are entitled as you mention, they have no idea that is how they are being. I really liked what @Luke Lanier said that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Yet, I think with the internet and information being so readily available some people don’t realize that the information didn’t just appear but someone had to take the time and put forth the effort to put up the information that the reader is benefitting from.
I wonder if the advent of the ability to copy contributed to the entitlement mentality. In other words, how many people do you know have copied DVDs or made duplicates of music from others for free even though that is against copyright laws and the copier gets the benefit when the originator gets no compensation for it? I wonder if that has contributed any to the entitlement mentality.
I have a bit of a different take on all this...
I really don't care about sharing a document I spent money on. That money is gone, a sunk cost. I've already got my value out of it. I actually feel I'm getting more value out of what I spent by sharing it. I spent a few thousand for my partnership LLC agreement and have shared that a few times. Writing this post takes me as much time as that. I don't care about a request for a document that I spent money on in the past.
The thing that gets me are the requests for my time. All the messages from tire-kickers who ask me to be their mentor and want hours of my time in person for a coffee, beer, or lunch. I respond to them all the same: "Most of the information and advice I can share is on my blog. Go read that and if you have any specific questions then feel free to email me." They often don't even do that @JD Martin ! They won't spend the time to read my blog before asking me for my time. Crazy.
Out of the 100+ people I've sent that to, only about 1-2 people have actually came back and said I've read your blog, and have this question. The other 98-99% were most likely pure tire kickers that will never do anything, but are requesting my time. I've already spent the time to put free info out there for everyone. At least check into it before expecting me to be your mentor or asking me to meet in person! So that became my way to weed out the tire-kickers after my podcast.
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So to the people expecting/wanting a meet up and potential mentoring from me (or anyone else), at least put in some effort first. Don't email me saying you saw a post or listened to my podcast and can you buy me a coffee. I'm perfectly able to (and would much rather) buy my own damn coffee to not waste time with a tire-kicker. If you're serious, show your serious. You'll have a lot better odds that way.