Altering Your Proof of Funds for a Viewing?

Oakland, CA · Member since 2014 · 51 posts · 4 votes

I do not have the intention of this, it simply came up in a conversation with a new wholesaler. I also am not referring to POF "Letters", I am aware of how those work. Just would like fellow agents/investors opinions on this.

An agent is requesting a copy of your bank statement before allowing you to view a property, just a basic viewing. If you altered the statement digitally to show more funds, and faxed it over to the agent, is it technically violating any law? As you are NOT yet doing any transaction or business. It simply was to view a property. Thus, is it nothing more than a photoshopped image in that scenario?

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Cody L.

Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

I'd never do that! By that I mean I'd never fax. It's not 1980 dude. You should email your doctored financials.

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Nick G.
Investor · Moorpark, CA · Member since 2016 · 248 posts · 191 votes
9y
@Mike Miller I'm not an attorney, but that doesn't sound illegal. Disingenuous, sure, but not illegal. If you submitted that altered PoF with an offer that a seller would be making a decision off of, then that's a very different story.
The real issue here is with that agent. How much of a prick do you have to be to demand a copy of someone's bank statement before you show them a flippin house? Simply as a matter of principle - and speaking as an agent myself - I'd alter the hell out of my bank account if I were in your shoes. That agent is his own worst enemy. /end rant
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Mike Miller
OP
Oakland, CA · Member since 2014 · 51 posts · 4 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Nick G.:
@Mike Miller I'm not an attorney, but that doesn't sound illegal. Disingenuous, sure, but not illegal. If you submitted that altered PoF with an offer that a seller would be making a decision off of, then that's a very different story.
The real issue here is with that agent. How much of a prick do you have to be to demand a copy of someone's bank statement before you show them a flippin house? Simply as a matter of principle - and speaking as an agent myself - I'd alter the hell out of my bank account if I were in your shoes. That agent is his own worst enemy. /end rant
Okay. Yeah as long as there's not an offer with it. That makes sense.
(Not to get off-topic, but your "rant" is exactly how I felt. The agent was being a jerk, and a terrible agent to his client. He claimed he didn't want to waste his time with non serious buyers. Even though he was blowing off a serious potential buyer, over 10 minutes of his time. It was just a simple fixer upper too. I tried contacting the agent on behalf of the wholesaler to inquire, and he texted me "Got my Proof of Funds yet?")
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Jim Shepard
Investor · Edwardsville, IL · Member since 2015 · 432 posts · 481 votes
9y
It's not any of your agent's business how many dollars you have in an account! Proof of funds when making an offer is another thing. I'd find another realtor that was working for me and not against me. As far as altering a bank statement goes I wouldn't do it. My reputation means too much to me to do that.
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Nick G.
Investor · Moorpark, CA · Member since 2016 · 248 posts · 191 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Mike Miller:

Originally posted by @Nick G.:

@Mike Miller I'm not an attorney, but that doesn't sound illegal. Disingenuous, sure, but not illegal. If you submitted that altered PoF with an offer that a seller would be making a decision off of, then that's a very different story.
The real issue here is with that agent. How much of a prick do you have to be to demand a copy of someone's bank statement before you show them a flippin house? Simply as a matter of principle - and speaking as an agent myself - I'd alter the hell out of my bank account if I were in your shoes. That agent is his own worst enemy. /end rant
Okay. Yeah as long as there's not an offer with it. That makes sense.
(Not to get off-topic, but your "rant" is exactly how I felt. The agent was being a jerk, and a terrible agent to his client. He claimed he didn't want to waste his time with non serious buyers. Even though he was blowing off a serious potential buyer, over 10 minutes of his time. It was just a simple fixer upper too. I tried contacting the agent on behalf of the wholesaler to inquire, and he texted me "Got my Proof of Funds yet?")
Yeah. The things I'd like to say about this agent would earn me a deleted post/strong scolding by Mindy if I posted them... suffice to say, I'd whip up a nice PoF, whatever I needed to do to get what I wanted. And hopefully that agent's obvious asininity wouldn't get in the way too much from that point forward - though who am I kidding, of course it will. Lol.
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Kenneth GarrettPro Member
Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
I agree with everyone. POF is sufficient. I'm not showing him my bank account. Find another agent. We need another site to rant/vent. Don't want to get scolded either.
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Mike Miller
OP
Oakland, CA · Member since 2014 · 51 posts · 4 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Kenneth Garrett:

I agree with everyone. POF is sufficient. I'm not showing him my bank account. Find another agent. We need another site to rant/vent. Don't want to get scolded either.
Well it is the owner's agent, so there is no choice, the only way to get access is to deal with him.
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Joel OwensBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
9y
Very slimy. People should do business the right way. The minute integrity goes away you have lost yourself and your soul in pursuit for the almighty dollar.
If I found out someone was misleading like that regarding proof of funds I would not want to work with them.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
9y
bank accounts is what we use for POF on all our deals.. whats the issue.. you either have the coin or your a pretender.
I like that about most of the sellers it cuts down my competition on the no money wholesalers who use fake POF's to tie up deals.. you know so they can pimp them off LOL... either get some money and act as an investor or do something else is my thought process... And for sure do not do this to any bank or regulated agency that is out and out fraud.
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Wayne Brooks
Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
9y
I wouldn't be so quick to condemn the agent. The last thing an informed owner wants is to let a wholesaler/any buyer who can't buy tie up their property. You this was "new wholesaler". As an agent getting calls about a listed property, a wholesaler, let alone a new one, is pretty easy to spot, if you know they exist and how they work ....and when that happens, yeah I'll require a POF upfront, as opposed to what seems like a real buyer, then maybe the POF comes later, with the offer......purely a judgment call on the agent' part, and apparently in this case a good one.
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Cody L.
Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
I'd never do that! By that I mean I'd never fax. It's not 1980 dude. You should email your doctored financials.
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Mike Miller
OP
Oakland, CA · Member since 2014 · 51 posts · 4 votes
9y
Well bit of a side discussion..... however, there's a number of factors you'd have to be filled in on.
This wholesaler actually had a serious investor (it's a company) with the funds and was already interested in the property. The wholesaler disclosed to the agent who the investor was and verified his relationship with him. The agent was actually familiar with the investor because his firm does a lot of flips in the area.
The investor did not want to provide his bank statements until he had a basic walk through. He felt the agent wasn't serious if he was unwilling to provide a basic walkthrough. So yes, you could say the investor is being a bit stubborn himself for not just emailing it over. Bottom line; the agent knew this investor was the real deal, and was unnecessarily being difficult. But there's certainly fault on both sides you could say.
Hence, that's how this whole thing came about. The wholesaler and I were discussing how he could approach a situation like that down the road, where you have a serious investor ready, but you're dealing with a difficult agent that wants POF. If this was a multi-million dollar finished home, I totally understand demanding POF prior, but this was a cheap fixer upper that was going to have public open houses next month.
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Account Closed
Johnson City, TN · Member since 2014 · 586 posts · 705 votes
9y
When it comes to matters like this it's just easier to give people what they ask for.
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Ian WalshBusiness Member
Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y
You really shouldn't do that.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
9y
well if the investor wanted it bad enough and had the capcity then he would send it over.. sounds like he or she was just not really that interested.. its tough playing real estate broker as a wholesaler... your kind of out there in a middle grey area... hard to get taken seriously .. I know i wont generally deal with wholesalers at all period... not even respond to them.. and I get called and e mailed literally everyday.. too many newbies and one's that are complete time wasters. now thats not to say never but generally speaking one has to be pretty darn good to get my attention.
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Nick G.
Investor · Moorpark, CA · Member since 2016 · 248 posts · 191 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

bank accounts is what we use for POF on all our deals.. whats the issue.. you either have the coin or your a pretender.
I like that about most of the sellers it cuts down my competition on the no money wholesalers who use fake POF's to tie up deals.. you know so they can pimp them off LOL... either get some money and act as an investor or do something else is my thought process... And for sure do not do this to any bank or regulated agency that is out and out fraud.
Once again you give me a different and excellent perspective on something, Jay. I stand by my opinion that the agent's probably a dipstick and doing a lousy job for his seller (unless, as another poster pointed out, he heard the word "wholesaler" and asked for PoF - because then in that case he's actually a pretty sharp agent in my opinion!) but it never occurred to me that that could be a really nice silver lining for the buyer that is willing to put up with his nonsense via the reduced competition.
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Matt K.
Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
9y
Show them the document on your phone and meet at the property to do the walk through...
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John Nachtigall
Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2017 · 325 posts · 701 votes
9y
I think I can do 1 better. I found a deal in Colorado Springs on 2 4plex next to each other and the seller would provide neither a walkthough (even the common areas) or the financials until they had an accepted offer. Keep in mind these are technically residential properties so condition and comparable are the standard for setting the price. The agent (working for me no less) said this was standard and there was no choice..my agent not even the sellers agent. When I mentioned that it was not possible to make an intelligent offer without 1 or the other (or both) he told me that was just the way it had to be.
So I walked.
On the original question, lying (in any form) is wrong. I don't care how stupid the agent is or how earnest and well meaning you are, if you have to lie you are wrong. Who cares if it is illegal.
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Zachery Buffin
Investor · Away · Member since 2017 · 167 posts · 131 votes
9y
I will tell you that I work with a wholesale company that we certainly ask about it before hand but never force someone to show us ahead of time. Honestly, if you lie about it you are only hurting yourself. That is how we look at it, I mean if you can't fund at closing you're the one who is out the earnest money and the sweet property on the back end. We are out a little time and effort but can always find another qualified buyer.
Honestly, and every state is different, but this might be something you could bring it up to the RE commission as it sounds suspiciously like "collusion" to me. Agents are not allowed to do that kind of thing, ask for proof of funds for a deal sure, but not to just do business with you. There are rules and codes of ethics that your agents have to follow and if you have never heard of some "weird rule" or "this is just the way it's done" situation then leave and file a complaint. It is not only your right to do so but it is also the right thing to do for everyone.
I don't know if you're looking for out of state stuff but I am sure there are hundreds of agents like myself here that would gladly show you things without needing any proof of funds letter. Cheers and best of luck!
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Levi T.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y
Just ask your banker to write you a POF letter stating you have x funds on hand at their bank for the amount of the deal. No need to show the agent you have 3x the funds for a deal. If they complain, tell them to pound sands, it's a letter from the banker after all stating you have the funds, it's as good as a bank statement.
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David Faulkner
Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @John Nachtigall:

I think I can do 1 better. I found a deal in Colorado Springs on 2 4plex next to each other and the seller would provide neither a walkthough (even the common areas) or the financials until they had an accepted offer. Keep in mind these are technically residential properties so condition and comparable are the standard for setting the price. The agent (working for me no less) said this was standard and there was no choice..my agent not even the sellers agent. When I mentioned that it was not possible to make an intelligent offer without 1 or the other (or both) he told me that was just the way it had to be.
So I walked.
On the original question, lying (in any form) is wrong. I don't care how stupid the agent is or how earnest and well meaning you are, if you have to lie you are wrong. Who cares if it is illegal.
Ha Ha! This reminded me of a similar story. I once called a listing agent and asked her to show me a property, and that if interested I would put the offer in through her (so she could double end the deal). Her response was that she wanted to know how much I was going to offer on the property BEFORE she would let me inside for a walk through. It is really hilarious how lazy and incompetent some of these agents are. I was/am a real deal all cash buyer too, BTW, no attempted wholesaling shenanigans, and would've gladly produced POFs if requested, no big deal ... but to want to know what price I was going to offer before I saw the place was a funny new one on me.
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Paul Bowers
Real Estate Investor · Macedon, NY · Member since 2016 · 251 posts · 290 votes
9y
Playing devils advocate a bit here but it could be the sellers instructions and not the agents. If this is a fully tenanted building the owner may not want to disturb the tenants for every curious investor that wants to walk through and compare this property to theirs just to stay on top of the market without having the desire or ability to actually purchase.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
9y
@Levi T. bank letter from banker works most of the time account statement all the time.... and i have even cut a cashiers check for full price made out to seller.. that gets their attention LOL
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John Nachtigall
Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2017 · 325 posts · 701 votes
9y
They didn't even bother to ask me for POF. They insisted it had to be an ACCEPTED offer, not just the offer itself. Again, this is residential, not commercial. Who offers on a house without looking inside?
I am sure that the seller did not want to inconvenience the tenets. On the other hand, I am not the one getting a divorce and having to fire sale my assets. It was priced at 2/3rds the market rate with a statement that rents were "several hundred dollars" under market. So without an inspection or financials (not even a rent roll) how could anyone make reasonable offer. Is there something wrong with it or is it a clusterf***. I am sure I could put in contingencies to tie up the property without making a real commitment, but I did not want to be "that guy".
I suppose the "bias to action" they advocate on all the podcasts would have had me offer full list price with a contingency that I have 30 days AFTER they get me the full financials. That would tie them up till infinity. I just could not do it, I suppose my risk tolerance was just too low in the end.
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Jon Q.
Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Mike Miller:

I do not have the intention of this, it simply came up in a conversation with a new wholesaler. I also am not referring to POF "Letters", I am aware of how those work. Just would like fellow agents/investors opinions on this.
An agent is requesting a copy of your bank statement before allowing you to view a property, just a basic viewing. If you altered the statement digitally to show more funds, and faxed it over to the agent, is it technically violating any law? As you are NOT yet doing any transaction or business. It simply was to view a property. Thus, is it nothing more than a photoshopped image in that scenario?
There is a more important issue then the law here, it is your reputation. Your reputation will be with you forever, so I encourage you to always be ethical and do good business. Otherwise any unethical actions you can it will eventually catch up with you and your business will suffer.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
9y
@John Nachtigall not sure about others but in our market with income properties we NEVER let the buyer inside until they are ready for home inspections... ONE visit in side.. look at unit do home inspections etc.. then negotiate further if they need to. sellers dont want to disturb tenants 20 times with lookie loos and every one is a cash buyer at least they all say they are !!!... just the way its done in many markets..
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