Dealing with Tenants who are bringing up laws.

General Landlording & Rental Properties
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Dealing with Tenants who are bringing up laws.

Louis W.
Real Estate Agent · Oakland, CA · Member since 2018 · 54 posts · 42 votes

Hi BP community,

I am pretty new to running a rental property. I recently took over managing a property for family in the San Francisco. I was discussing rent and property situation with my tenants, and they got pretty heated and threaten me with legal jargons. I am pretty ignorant of the laws and wondering how should I approach this issue going forward.

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Chris Szepessy
Catskill, NY · Member since 2018 · 636 posts · 668 votes
7y

Sounds like it might be best to NOT sign a new lease with them. Give them their 30 day notice (or whatever is necessary in your area) and find better tenants. When tenants start "threatening" to withhold rent or start throwing around legal terms, it usually doesn't end well. 99% of the time they have zero idea what they're even talking about. 

Is this your property or are you just managing it? From the little info we have, it sounds as if the tenants are mad that their rent is going to go up and they are looking for reasons for it not to. 

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  • Katie P.
    Real Estate Agent · Oakland, CA · Member since 2016 · 123 posts · 77 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. Check out Fried & Williams or Bornstein Law in Oakland. Frank Kim/Jo Biel in SF. 

    0Reply
  • Jacob Villalobos
    Whittier , CA · Member since 2013 · 176 posts · 96 votes
    7y

    -Don't speak to tenants anymore.

    -Evict them. Use these people. 

    https://www.sflandlordtenantlaw.com/?gclid=CjwKCAi...

    -Raise the RENTS as much as you can. Do a background check on everyone

    -Learn (read) about tenant law before you jump into managing again. It's not super difficult even in California. Tons of info for landlords on this site.

    MAKE MONEY!!!  

    0Reply
  • Bill S.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Scott L.:

    Don't ever let a tenant threaten or intimidate you. If they do, they need to leave as its only the tip of the ice burg.

    In Colorado a lease goes month to month when it expires and either tenant or manager can give 30 days written notice to leave. I don't know about SF/CA laws.

     So just a few points of clarity. 1) A lease only goes month to month if the lease doesn't specify otherwise. A lease can for example renew for another year or 6 months. 2) The lease should specify the amount of notice required once it converts to month to month in the event that the lease does not, the state statute requires 21 days notice. 

    As you pointed out, this means nothing for someone in another state or city in another state.

    0Reply
  • Amit M.
    Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Louis W. dude, re-read my post on page 3- carefully- as I present you with a few basic choices. I know what the hell I’m talking about. 80% of the responses here are garbage. THIS PROPERTY IS UNDER STRICT RENT CONTROL. Old/expired or non existing leases mean nothing in SF wrt evicting tenants.

    You/your family should decide a course of action soon, as these tenants will be going to the rent board soon and asking for rent reductions. If you provide more details as I’ve outlined, I can give you more feedback.

    5Reply
  • David W.
    Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 134 posts · 117 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. Someone said document documents t document and to add to this. Do not communicate over the phone if possible. Everything email or if they get you on the phone, follow up confirming details of conversation by email. That way you have documentation and if they are dumb you can get their threats documented. Just in case.

    0Reply
  • Dennis M.
    Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    For me it begs the question : why on earth would anyone attempt to rent out a property in San Fran ? What is the upside to this madness ? Your not going to cashflow and your certainly not going to be able to maintain any real sense of control over the property that you paid an astronomical amount of money for in purchase cost and in taxes .  

    1Reply
  • Louis W.
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Oakland, CA · Member since 2018 · 54 posts · 42 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Dennis M.:

    For me it begs the question : why on earth would anyone attempt to rent out a property in San Fran ? What is the upside to this madness ? Your not going to cashflow and your certainly not going to be able to maintain any real sense of control over the property that you paid an astronomical amount of money for in purchase cost and in taxes .  

     The law is very unfair to the landlord. However, investors who are familiar with the laws are able to make great cash flow. One of my mentors has a portfolio of single-family homes in the bay area. Because of Costa Hawkins Rental Housing Act, he is able to raise the rent to market rate most of the time for his single-family homes. He manages all his property himself. I have a lot more to learn from him.

    0Reply
  • Christi HawkinsPro Member
    Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 239 posts · 142 votes
    7y

    @Jim K.  Thank you for asking that question!! 

    0Reply
  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Louis W. I once had a drunk, disgruntled buyer threaten that he was going to have the Social Media surround my house on Monday morning.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
    WebsiteView Page
    1Reply
  • Ron Fletcher
    Leclaire, IA · Member since 2016 · 161 posts · 130 votes
    7y

    @Louis W.

    Read reply from Chris Szpessy and follow it. Best solution period!

    0Reply
  • Kyle Schlosser
    Specialist · Louisville, KY · Member since 2017 · 166 posts · 154 votes
    7y

    Oh man...echoing what others have said, I'd hire a lawyer yesterday and try get them out as fast as possible in accordance with the law.

    0Reply
  • Alex Washburn
    Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2017 · 55 posts · 28 votes
    7y

    @Marcia Maynard I completely agree with your ‘place of fear’ commentary.

    San Francisco is a scary place to rent and anything changing to a renters situation is enough to send anyone into complete and utter panic.

    I’ve had several friends earning over $100k a year get displaced overnight by some crazy (yet legal) rent hikes - everyone in the city knows people who have been displaced.

    @others - San Francisco has probably one of the most educated populations on rental laws in the US because of how expensive, competitive and ill say it... vicious the market is. <— it’s for all these reasons I left behind my STEAL of a 1 bedroom ($1,700 a month) last year and moved to another state.

    They are trying to intimidate you yes but you need to hand the issue over to a management company and start taking classes.

    I don’t agree that lawyering up and kicking them out is a good solution. If they’ve been good just tenants recognize their place of fear and bring in a professional before you do something you actually could be sued for.

    2Reply
  • Autumn RankinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Bandera, TX · Member since 2017 · 148 posts · 56 votes
    7y

    @Louis W.

    Legal jargon doesn’t mean anything until they have a lawyer and go forward. I can make up stuff all day 😂

    0Reply
  • Amit M.
    Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    i’m

    otta 

    here

    ———

    3words

    2Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Louis W.:

    Hi BP community,

    I am pretty new to running a rental property. I recently took over managing a property for family in the San Francisco. I was discussing rent and property situation with my tenants, and they got pretty heated and threaten me with legal jargons. I am pretty ignorant of the laws and wondering how should I approach this issue going forward.

    Ah, yes. The joys of starting with no education. 

    Get a strong RE attorney, preferably one with properties of his/her own.

    Then, get educated.

    1Reply
  • Patrik Kusek
    Flipper/Rehabber · Fairfield, CA · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 19 votes
    7y

    @Louis W I have owned in SF for over 25 years. The laws that pertain in most situations around the country even in most parts of California don't necessarily apply in SF. SF is very tenant friendly. The reality is that to evict a tenant in SF is very expensive and very lengthly. As long as two years in some cases. Also legally there are things you can and cannot say as a landlord to your tenant. Don't forget also that most of SF is rent control and you can only raise the rent up to a preapproved %. This year it is only 1.6%! I would seek legal counsel with someone who deals specifically with the landlord/rental properties in SF and knows in and outs of the market. Self managing can work but it's best to know what your legal rights are as a landlord and what the tenants rights are as well. 

    3Reply
  • Casey HoweBusiness Member
    Property Manager · South Shore South Coast Cape Cod, Metro South · Member since 2019 · 31 posts · 16 votes
    7y

    I would hire a professional property manager to manage the properties.

    [email protected]508-298-6785
    Howzer Property Management4.6237 Reviews
    WebsiteView Page
    2Reply
  • Houston Garcia
    Real Estate Broker · San Francisco Bay Area, CA · Member since 2015 · 116 posts · 76 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. I would recommend avoiding any further contact with them from now on and letting your attorney handle everything.

    I highly recommend either Clifford Fried or David Gellman - both are extremely well-versed in landlord-tenant laws in the SF Bay Area. I'm happy to PM you Clifford's cell if you'd like. 

    1Reply
  • Thomas Johnson
    Lender · Endicott, NY · Member since 2018 · 3 posts · 1 vote
    7y

    instead of discussing repairs in general, ask each of the tenants what is the "one" thing they would like to see improved and then improve it or some form of it-this way they see they are bing taken seriously and the mgmt. team is willing to listen to them

    0Reply
  • James Ma
    Burnaby, BC · Member since 2017 · 283 posts · 268 votes
    7y

    you dont need to hire an attorney, you can just hire a property manager. 

    I would not be discussing leasing options with the tenants unless you know the local laws or you can be opening your family up to lawsuits.

    0Reply
  • Matthew Nicholson
    Medford, OR · Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 1 vote
    7y

    @Louis W. Anti-gentrification?

    0Reply
  • Henry Kaldenbaugh
    Verde Valley Arizona USA · Member since 2018 · 115 posts · 98 votes
    7y

    Becoming a property manager in SF without any pre-education in the landlord tenant laws,  pretty gutsy.  This may be an expensive education.  At least you know wht your next move is.  memorize all of the landlord tenant regulations and statutes.  Buenas Suerte, Amigo!

    0Reply
  • Paul Yeater
    Rental Property Investor · Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2017 · 27 posts · 7 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. try to document what maintenance they complained about and when it was fixed.  The lawyer you consult with can use that documentation to defend you and the landlords IF it goes to court.  Typed all this out and see @John Underwood beat me to it. #latetotheparty

    1Reply
  • Louis W.
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Oakland, CA · Member since 2018 · 54 posts · 42 votes
    7y

    Thanks for the continued advice and support, everyone! 

    Currently, I had to return management back to my family. They said to keep thing as it like before with the tenants because they think the tenants will just move out eventually on their own.

    Of course, I let my family know everyone's advice to hire proper PM and lawyers, but they want to avoid these conflict due to other complication with my family dispute over ownership of the house. Another whole can of worms that I won't get into. (Another lesson: Write a dam clear legal Will with a lawyer. Verbal is useless. Greedy People will fight over your stuff when you passed.) 

    I will pass this headache back to them and focus on my own properties. I will apply everyone's teaching to better manage my own properties. Thank you, everybody. 

    2Reply
  • David Hedges
    Investor · Crown Point, IN · Member since 2014 · 177 posts · 84 votes
    7y

    @Louis W.

    If they are threatening you, why even renew the least? Just give them notice you will be terminating their lease, fix any maintenance issues and get a better tenant.

    0Reply
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