Tired of all the winning
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
5yOriginally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Sad story, but good to hear nobody died.
So...finish the story. How are you going to deal with this?
Then what would we have a fruitful forum discussion about? What about it, forum people? What should I do next?
Termination. Even if the one roommate wasn't partaking in the festivities, she has to know that it's going on and is therefore complicit. I would give them 30 days to get out. If they comply, there would be no penalty.
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102 Replies
- Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes5y
Long thread so this may have been mentioned.
Have you ever heard of "Constructive eviction"? This is where you allow conditions to exist that force a tenant to leave. This is NOT a good thing for you. It is a very bad thing for you. If a good tenant like Erica feels forced to leave, you are responsible for her costs.
Get rid of the bad tenants, They are a legal and financial liability to you.
You also mentioned moral issues.
I believe you have a moral obligation to hold the bad tenants accountable for their own choices and actions. When you shield people from the consequences of their own actions you shield them from the lesson to be learned. Enabling bad behavior is bad both for the person you are enabling and bad for society.
If you want to help in a positive way you could help her to get into drug rehab or even let her stay subject to staying in drug rehab. But that is a lot of work on your part and should be viewed as your mission or contribution to society not as part of your business.
- Investor · Napa, CA · Member since 2016 · 101 posts · 53 votes5y
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Gail K.:
"So if they do pay the rent regularly and on time, I should give them another chance?'
I've dealt with a lot of drug use/abuse around here. Had to let a worker go after I caught him selling meth while working on one of my properties. My electrician had to let his 20 year helper go because the guy was using heroin. My partners brother has a very long history of drug use/abuse and has spent over half his life in and out of prison for this. A good friend has been dealing with both a brother and a son as abusers for years. This is not just an individual issue. The whole family often gets dragged into this nonsense.
I've lost patience with this drug business. So many are so casual about this. And I'm not talking about the "lite" stuff. This is the dangerous stuff. Sometimes I think "drugs kill...but just not fast enough".
With that in mind, I'd get rid of the roommate druggie. The fact that they had 10-12 friends over for a drug party alone would do it for me.
So is it the morality of the thing or the unreliability of the tenants?
It's not about morality, it's about LEGALITY. And someone is doing illegal things on your property, which could come back to bite you, especially now that you know about it.
- Lender · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2015 · 482 posts · 316 votes5y
I just did a brief skim, but it seems like there are more emotions here than trying to treat it like a business. I would refer back to the contract you set up and rules within it, and within tenant law in the area.
If it was me, do I feel bad when people cannot complete their contract? Yep, but the rules were set and they agreed to them. The contract is the contract, and I can't pick and choose what to enforce or not enforce and expect a judge to respect any request for remedy for breach of contract on another point changed because I feel bad for them. If I want to change the contract because of this situation then I do that, but not by the seat of my pants. Plus the contract is for my protection, so I utilize that. I.e. When a tenant can't pay on time, I try to help them find rent assistance if possible, yet rent is still due. If the tenant doesn't want to pay the electric bill and it gets turned off, so be it. Also if I am advocating for the tenant here regarding their values/beliefs, in my opinion, then I have already made up my mind what to do, but I just want validation. And then as well, it is no longer a business. I am not saying be cutthroat, but there is a limit to pushing the envelope.
Originally posted by @Elizabeth Goff:
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Gail K.:
"So if they do pay the rent regularly and on time, I should give them another chance?'
I've dealt with a lot of drug use/abuse around here. Had to let a worker go after I caught him selling meth while working on one of my properties. My electrician had to let his 20 year helper go because the guy was using heroin. My partners brother has a very long history of drug use/abuse and has spent over half his life in and out of prison for this. A good friend has been dealing with both a brother and a son as abusers for years. This is not just an individual issue. The whole family often gets dragged into this nonsense.
I've lost patience with this drug business. So many are so casual about this. And I'm not talking about the "lite" stuff. This is the dangerous stuff. Sometimes I think "drugs kill...but just not fast enough".
With that in mind, I'd get rid of the roommate druggie. The fact that they had 10-12 friends over for a drug party alone would do it for me.
So is it the morality of the thing or the unreliability of the tenants?
It's not about morality, it's about LEGALITY. And someone is doing illegal things on your property, which could come back to bite you, especially now that you know about it.
DIng, ding, ding, ding, correct answer.
Originally posted by @Ned Carey:
Long thread so this may have been mentioned.
Have you ever heard of "Constructive eviction"? This is where you allow conditions to exist that force a tenant to leave. This is NOT a good thing for you. It is a very bad thing for you. If a good tenant like Erica feels forced to leave, you are responsible for her costs.
Get rid of the bad tenants, They are a legal and financial liability to you.
You also mentioned moral issues.
I believe you have a moral obligation to hold the bad tenants accountable for their own choices and actions. When you shield people from the consequences of their own actions you shield them from the lesson to be learned. Enabling bad behavior is bad both for the person you are enabling and bad for society.
If you want to help in a positive way you could help her to get into drug rehab or even let her stay subject to staying in drug rehab. But that is a lot of work on your part and should be viewed as your mission or contribution to society not as part of your business.
The day Erica tells me she has to leave is the day she moves in with us at our place.
Originally posted by @Victor S.:
how do we know this is not just a Big Lie?
We'lll be having a socially-distanced discussion on that next week here in Pittsburgh through McRib International Seminars. Cover charge and two-beer minimum apply. Floor show and karaoke after.
Originally posted by @Steve Milford:
I just did a brief skim, but it seems like there are more emotions here than trying to treat it like a business. I would refer back to the contract you set up and rules within it, and within tenant law in the area.
If it was me, do I feel bad when people cannot complete their contract? Yep, but the rules were set and they agreed to them. The contract is the contract, and I can't pick and choose what to enforce or not enforce and expect a judge to respect any request for remedy for breach of contract on another point changed because I feel bad for them. If I want to change the contract because of this situation then I do that, but not by the seat of my pants. Plus the contract is for my protection, so I utilize that. I.e. When a tenant can't pay on time, I try to help them find rent assistance if possible, yet rent is still due. If the tenant doesn't want to pay the electric bill and it gets turned off, so be it. Also if I am advocating for the tenant here regarding their values/beliefs, in my opinion, then I have already made up my mind what to do, but I just want validation. And then as well, it is no longer a business. I am not saying be cutthroat, but there is a limit to pushing the envelope.
Clearly a very brief skim before the urge to unlock your word-hoard overwhelmed your feeble defenses.
- Gillette, WY · Member since 2017 · 149 posts · 68 votes5y
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Gail K.:
"So is it the morality of the thing or the unreliability of the tenants?"
Well, how reliable is the druggie tenant?
Gail
Pays on the first of the month like clockwork.
Who cares if they pay on time?? Any type of drug use or illegal activity should be specifically warned against in the lease agreement and thus grounds for termination. Simple. clear. great. Next topic...
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Ned Carey:
Long thread so this may have been mentioned.
Have you ever heard of "Constructive eviction"? This is where you allow conditions to exist that force a tenant to leave. This is NOT a good thing for you. It is a very bad thing for you. If a good tenant like Erica feels forced to leave, you are responsible for her costs.
Get rid of the bad tenants, They are a legal and financial liability to you.
You also mentioned moral issues.
I believe you have a moral obligation to hold the bad tenants accountable for their own choices and actions. When you shield people from the consequences of their own actions you shield them from the lesson to be learned. Enabling bad behavior is bad both for the person you are enabling and bad for society.
If you want to help in a positive way you could help her to get into drug rehab or even let her stay subject to staying in drug rehab. But that is a lot of work on your part and should be viewed as your mission or contribution to society not as part of your business.
The day Erica tells me she has to leave is the day she moves in with us at our place.
Bad idea.
- Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes5y
It happens.
Last year an old timer shot and killed some guy who was whcked out in my Section 8 property. The property manager called me I said, "oh no what can I do to help." Nothing really just thought you should know.
Weird how this crap goes down. But hey what can I say the old timer paid his rent on time!
- Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes5y
You should hang Narcan next to the fire extinguisher. “Break glass in case of emergency”.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
You should hang Narcan next to the fire extinguisher. “Break glass in case of emergency”.
At $94 a dose retail, the Narcan wouldn't last long.
This had actually been a useful discussion, with some significant, well-targeted contributions and some good laughs instead of much of the usual blather and bloviation. Don't get me wrong, we've had some.imbeciles chime in. But on the whole, a success.
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
Their derig problem and calling the police is not your problem. Your duty as a landlord is only to make sure your tenants' rental units are clean, safe, quiet and pay the rent.
Calling the police and having fire trucks and paramedics is not exactly quiet. So, you need to determine whether or not this is something that happens all the time.
In the case your tenants are making noise and bothering other tenant you need to evict them. Period!
I don't take any crap from our tenants. Our lease agreements state that tenants need to limit parties to small family type parties that don't bother other tenants and when they have one party where their guests are hooping and hollering they immediately get an eviction notice. No joke! Let them get away with one party and another tenant will have a large party and now you have several tenants who are out of control and now you put yourself in a position where you have to decide whether or not you want to evict 2, 3, or 5 tenants who think you are a pushover and if you can't evict tenants when they need to be evicted you are a pushover.
"Say what you mean and mean what you say". Act according to your lease agreement and policies.
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
I don't see anything in your original post that says your tenant are not paying the rent. I am sort of confused as to why someone called you to tell you they called an ambulance or the police and I am wondering why you started questioning the police or paramedics as to what the situation was. In my opinion, you are supposed to be only the landlord and stay out of your tenants' personal issues. I would never ever ask the police or paramedics what was going on. Just because you own the property it doesn't give you the right to ask about personal issues and there are laws in regards to someone divulging medical information and for good reasons.
If I was driving past one of my apartment buildings and I saw the police there with paramedics putting someone in an ambulance I would never stop because I figure that the police and paramedics are doing their job and there is no reason I need to stop with the exception if I see a cloud of smoke coming out of the building.
We've had the police go to our apartment buildings for many domestic arguments and I never when to one of those properties while the police where there. Why should I stick my nose in the situation. I will evict the tenant for being too noisy and bothering other tenants when the police are there too many times, but I will only know how many times the police are there when other tenants complain about the noise.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Their derig problem and calling the police is not your problem. Your duty as a landlord is only to make sure your tenants' rental units are clean, safe, quiet and pay the rent.
Calling the police and having fire trucks and paramedics is not exactly quiet. So, you need to determine whether or not this is something that happens all the time.
In the case your tenants are making noise and bothering other tenant you need to evict them. Period!
I don't take any crap from our tenants. Our lease agreements state that tenants need to limit parties to small family type parties that don't bother other tenants and when they have one party where their guests are hooping and hollering they immediately get an eviction notice. No joke! Let them get away with one party and another tenant will have a large party and now you have several tenants who are out of control and now you put yourself in a position where you have to decide whether or not you want to evict 2, 3, or 5 tenants who think you are a pushover and if you can't evict tenants when they need to be evicted you are a pushover.
"Say what you mean and mean what you say". Act according to your lease agreement and policies.
Jack, I sincerely doubt you could landlord your way out of a wet paper bag.
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Their derig problem and calling the police is not your problem. Your duty as a landlord is only to make sure your tenants' rental units are clean, safe, quiet and pay the rent.
Calling the police and having fire trucks and paramedics is not exactly quiet. So, you need to determine whether or not this is something that happens all the time.
In the case your tenants are making noise and bothering other tenant you need to evict them. Period!
I don't take any crap from our tenants. Our lease agreements state that tenants need to limit parties to small family type parties that don't bother other tenants and when they have one party where their guests are hooping and hollering they immediately get an eviction notice. No joke! Let them get away with one party and another tenant will have a large party and now you have several tenants who are out of control and now you put yourself in a position where you have to decide whether or not you want to evict 2, 3, or 5 tenants who think you are a pushover and if you can't evict tenants when they need to be evicted you are a pushover.
"Say what you mean and mean what you say". Act according to your lease agreement and policies.
Jack, I sincerely doubt you could landlord your way out of a wet paper bag.
Never hear that one before. Heard, "you can't fight your way out of a paper bag", but I'm such a woosie I always thought I would say, "can't fight my way into a paper bag".
Thank you very much.
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
I just read the entire thread a 2nd time and it looks like you are trying to be 'Big Daddy' to your tenants vs. being a landlord. I don't give a crap what my tenants do behind their doors and it seems like you know everything and that is not right. If you have tenants doing drugs behind their doors it is none of your business until the problem starts to affect your other tenants and when the problem is visible from outside the apartment, but when an ambulance and police show up I don't stick my nose in any tenants business and I don't ask police or paramedics what happened. What your tenants did and what caused someone to call an ambulance or the police is none of your business and it seems like you enjoy highlighting personal activities surrounding your tenants. I don't! I stick with renting my units, making sure my tenants abide by the rules in their lease agreement and when it becomes apparent that a tenant is violating any rules, without my having to ask police or paramedics, then I will notify the tenant and if the tenant does not correct the problem I will evict the tenant, but I will never get myself into the drama by communicating everything that occurs with every tenant.
I have tenants who have all sorts of personal problems. I have tenants who have serious financial problems and they have difficulty paying their rent and they are so short of cash their gas and electric is constantly being turned off. I have more feelings for these tenants than I do your drug addicts, but I keep my nose out of their business.
I've had many tenants die from several different types of cancer, but I keep my nose out of their business. I've had a few tenants who beat their wives all the time and the police were called to their apartment several times. Why should I get involved when the wives already called the police several times and the wives were well-aware of their rights and options. It is not my job to stick my nose in their wives business and I don't want to know the degree of abuse and I don't want to cloud my own judgement by getting involved. I am only the landlord and my only job is to collect the rent and make sure my tenants don't violate house rules outlined in their lease agreement. Eventually, I evicted a few of the wife beaters, but for different reasons I cannot remember at this time.
I own a 6-unit building next door to my office and the police and ambulance are their about once every month and I never walked out of my office building/home where I sleep no less than 15 feet from where the ambulances park. I don't care why the ambulance is their because I am the landlord and not my tenants' caretaker. If a tenant wants me to know they went to the hospital because they had a heart attack, then that is their decision, but I will not ask anyone what happened that night nor any day after. It is none of my business until I find out the tenant can't pay their rent, or until another tenant complains and then what am I supposed to do? Evict the tenant for having multiple heart attacks and calling for an ambulance?
I am trying to figure out why your tenant called you about the police and ambulance. If it was my tenant calling me I would have asked, "why are you calling me and would have gone back to sleep."
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
Did you really write 12,000 posts on BP. I've been writing 24/7 for a few years and I think I just reached 500 a few days ago. i will probably get banned long before I reach 1,000 posts because I write the way I see things and have zero concern about making and keeping friends. I'm impressed!!!
- 5yWesley WhiteheadPro MemberRental Property Investor · Depends on where my employer sends me · Member since 2018 · 171 posts · 142 votes
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Wesley Whitehead:
He mentioned early on that he changed the names to protect the innocent. I know it's a long thread and you probably didn't/couldn't read all of it, so thought I'd throw that in....
I sure didn't. Much obliged Bruce.
- 5yWesley WhiteheadPro MemberRental Property Investor · Depends on where my employer sends me · Member since 2018 · 171 posts · 142 votes
Originally posted by @Wesley Whitehead:
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Wesley Whitehead:
He mentioned early on that he changed the names to protect the innocent. I know it's a long thread and you probably didn't/couldn't read all of it, so thought I'd throw that in....
I sure didn't. Much obliged Bruce.
I forgot my apologies to Jim K. Evict all tenants who have given you proof of drug use.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
i will probably get banned long before I reach 1,000 posts because I write the way I see things and have zero concern about making and keeping friends.
Well, it's good to be self-aware, at least.
- Real Estate Agent · Orlando FL, USA · Member since 2019 · 29 posts · 28 votes5y
This is great fellas. I am learning so much. Great case study. I eat this stuff up.
Continuation of the game. Even in higher class properties, there are some set backs. Note: I would not have this issue if not for my local area Covid eviction moratorium.
Class b+ Quad property. Market rent ~$3700.
2 drug using female squatters (neither are on lease) that tenant let stay with him. One claims to have paid rent to the tenant. Tenant states he does not want them there any longer (we never wanted them there), but his actions make this less clear regarding one of the squatters.
Lease explicitly forbids sub leasing and visitors more than 10 days in a year.
unit is thrashed: front window had brick thrown through it (one of the squatters threw a brick through the window). One bedroom door is no longer a door as it is detached. Another bedroom door has been kicked in. Toilet seat is off toilet. I did not see inside of the bedrooms.
Police have been called multiple times. This includes for one squatter attacking the tenant.
Covid local rules state eviction can only be done for Heath and safety issues. Anyone living in the unit is protected (even any squatters). Cannot evict for lease violations other than health and safety. Cannot evict to move into unit or to rehab unit. Cannot evict for damage to unit except as related to health and safety
Two of the other unit’s tenants say they are afraid of the squatters. I do not think the fear is fully unwarranted, but likely does not cross threshold to be health and safety criteria require by current local eviction moratorium.
I have consulted 2 lawyers. Both made same recommendation. They both recommended cash for keys. I do not do cash for keys.
I am not as confident as Jim k was on his actions. I do have an action plan, just not sure it is the Action plan. So seeking thoughts on what to do but it is not constructive to say choose more LL friendly market (I have done quite well in this market). I also am adamant about not doing cash for keys, but if you want to try to make the case that squatters deserve to be paid for squatting, damaging a unit, etc and that it does not encourage this behavior resulting in more cases similar to this, feel free.Bring on the suggestions.
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