STR Owners Beware - Do NOT Work with Evolve If You Value Your Bottom-Line

Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

3y

@Matthew Spiers Sorry you had to go through that. Have you thought about self managing? That is what a lot folks on this forum do. My properties are in another state as well and we have self managed from the start. I mean you have to spend time managing your virtual property manager spend that time managing your str yourself. It is very doable but not for everyone. Just something to think about.

2 Reply

Brooklyn McCarty

Investor · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 754 votes

3y

Self management is the way to go. Avery Carl’s book Short Term Rental, Long Term Wealth is your guide!

5 Reply

John UnderwoodPro Member

Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes

3y

I agree with self management. Take
full control of your property.

4 Reply

Andres Murillo

Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2022 · 137 posts · 106 votes

3y

One of my mom's favorite sayings - "Lo barato cuesta mas".

Translation - "Cheap costs more".

I think the order of preferred management is as follows:

1. Self Managed - do it all.

2. Self Managed with support - hire what support you need. Interior design, marketing, cleaning, etc. Pick what you don't have the knowledge or bandwidth for and find quality help.

3. Local Manager - can typically offer partial support for "2" but is also designed to be full service. Fees will vary and you'll have to work with several if you scale, but their local contacts, knowledge, and smaller books of business provide better results.

4. National Manager - can be great for helping create a similar process as you grow your portfolio. Don't plan on "economies of scale" here. They will still use local vendors so your costs won't compress because of their nationwide presence.

6 Reply

Michael BaumPro Member

Olympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 7k+ votes

3y

Hey @Matthew Spiers, Vacasa isn't much better IMHO and from what I have read. They used to be pretty good when they were small and local, but now... Essentially you would be trading one frying pan for another.

Plus you aren't going to be paying 10%, but more like 30%.

2 Reply

Leslie Anne Morris

Real Estate Agent · Smoky Mountains, TN · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 984 votes

3y

Definitely not a fan of going backwards to self management, but also not a super big fan of Vacasa either. Their model does not work in all markets. Why not interview property managers in your area? Some are doing it right! I wrote this blog post about how to evaluate a property management company:

How to Evaluate a Property Manager for Your Short Term Rental (biggerpockets.com)

3 Reply

Drew SygitBusiness Member

Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes

3y

Sometimes we're forced to go with the lesser of two evils:(

[email protected]248-209-6824

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1 Reply

Jeremy Horton

Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

3y

Quote from @Leslie Anne Morris:

Definitely not a fan of going backwards to self management, but also not a super big fan of Vacasa either. Their model does not work in all markets. Why not interview property managers in your area? Some are doing it right! I wrote this blog post about how to evaluate a property management company:

How to Evaluate a Property Manager for Your Short Term Rental (biggerpockets.com)

Exactly. I couldn't be more tired of hearing the self-management thing. If you are a "regular" person with a family, kids, full-time job and whatever else STR self management is simply taking on another full-time job. The goal (for me at least) is to free up time, not have it taken away by self-management.

On top of that you face a major scaling issue. Ok cool, you can self manage one, two, a few units anyway. Now what happens when you have 10, 20 units? Exactly what you think will happen. And now imagine you haven't worked property management into your properties...yea now you can't afford it. Not a fun situation to be in.

If you are a property manager, or a realtor or some job where you already have time freedom - then cool, it may be right for you. But for most people it's going to be a major time commitment and headache, and once you get over that hump now you have a scaling issue.

As far as for the OP - I would do exactly as you mentioned Leslie - find a local property manager. They probably charge less overall and you probably get better service. I have a buddy that has a condo in PCB - he uses a small management company (father and son) who do only 10-12 units. They haven't had a problem yet. That being said, it is important to do your due diligence to make sure your PM is doing what they should be, as far as marketing, dealing with guests, maintenance requests, reviews etc. Make your expectations clear with them prior to getting started.

2 Reply

Robin SimonBusiness Member

Lender · Austin, TX · Member since 2022 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes

3y

Quote from @Matthew Spiers:

My family and I got into short-term rentals this year and we thought things were going well but since the property was several states over, we had to rely on a virtual property manager. The one we chose was Evolve.

I know there have been a good number of debates on here as to which one to go with (Vacasa vs Evolve for instance), and I can safely say that I would avoid Evolve at all costs if I were to use them again in the future. Their lower percentage to manage is enticing at first but they cost us thousands of dollars because of horrible mismanagement and bad enforcement of their own policies and terms and conditions. I've been putting reviews of them to try and prevent someone else from losing profits from their bad management and if I could provide 0 stars I would.

The two largest incidents that happened were when they miscalculated over $700 in missed taxes that they never charged the customers, then as we talked to them about correcting the issue they told us we were essentially out money ourselves. The last straw was finally when we had a guest not cancel, not notify us at all that they weren't going to be staying over our peak season (Christmas week) totaling nearly $600 for a few days. We then got a chargeback despite Evolve's rental agreement stating no refunds with no notice and then they pulled the money back out of our accounts. DO NOT ever work with Evolve.

Vacasa seems like a much better alternative and will be who we work with in the future.

interesting and thanks for sharing this experience - begs the question though, is Vacasa really the best solution, or is the problem less Evolve specifically and maybe just the model of the super large nationwide management platform? Sounds like that may be more the issue rather than a specific national co

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2 Reply

Leslie Anne Morris

Real Estate Agent · Smoky Mountains, TN · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 984 votes

3y

Quote from @Jeremy Horton:

Quote from @Leslie Anne Morris:

Definitely not a fan of going backwards to self management, but also not a super big fan of Vacasa either. Their model does not work in all markets. Why not interview property managers in your area? Some are doing it right! I wrote this blog post about how to evaluate a property management company:

How to Evaluate a Property Manager for Your Short Term Rental (biggerpockets.com)

Exactly. I couldn't be more tired of hearing the self-management thing. If you are a "regular" person with a family, kids, full-time job and whatever else STR self management is simply taking on another full-time job. The goal (for me at least) is to free up time, not have it taken away by self-management.

On top of that you face a major scaling issue. Ok cool, you can self manage one, two, a few units anyway. Now what happens when you have 10, 20 units? Exactly what you think will happen. And now imagine you haven't worked property management into your properties...yea now you can't afford it. Not a fun situation to be in.

If you are a property manager, or a realtor or some job where you already have time freedom - then cool, it may be right for you. But for most people it's going to be a major time commitment and headache, and once you get over that hump now you have a scaling issue.

As far as for the OP - I would do exactly as you mentioned Leslie - find a local property manager. They probably charge less overall and you probably get better service. I have a buddy that has a condo in PCB - he uses a small management company (father and son) who do only 10-12 units. They haven't had a problem yet. That being said, it is important to do your due diligence to make sure your PM is doing what they should be, as far as marketing, dealing with guests, maintenance requests, reviews etc. Make your expectations clear with them prior to getting started.

Exactly! I created a property management company when I got to 5 units. Scale is impossible.

1 Reply

Chad McMahan

Residential Real Estate Broker · Sedona, AZ · Member since 2017 · 751 posts · 504 votes

3y

Quote from @Matthew Spiers:

My family and I got into short-term rentals this year and we thought things were going well but since the property was several states over, we had to rely on a virtual property manager. The one we chose was Evolve.

I know there have been a good number of debates on here as to which one to go with (Vacasa vs Evolve for instance), and I can safely say that I would avoid Evolve at all costs if I were to use them again in the future. Their lower percentage to manage is enticing at first but they cost us thousands of dollars because of horrible mismanagement and bad enforcement of their own policies and terms and conditions. I've been putting reviews of them to try and prevent someone else from losing profits from their bad management and if I could provide 0 stars I would.

The two largest incidents that happened were when they miscalculated over $700 in missed taxes that they never charged the customers, then as we talked to them about correcting the issue they told us we were essentially out money ourselves. The last straw was finally when we had a guest not cancel, not notify us at all that they weren't going to be staying over our peak season (Christmas week) totaling nearly $600 for a few days. We then got a chargeback despite Evolve's rental agreement stating no refunds with no notice and then they pulled the money back out of our accounts. DO NOT ever work with Evolve.

Vacasa seems like a much better alternative and will be who we work with in the future.

I hear similar complaints from every client that has chosen them, counter to my self management or local PM suggestions. Saving money on your support network sure gets expensive.

1 Reply

Dan Maciejewski

Realtor · PInellas County Largo, FL · Member since 2016 · 902 posts · 810 votes

3y

Quote from @Robin Simon:

interesting and thanks for sharing this experience - begs the question though, is Vacasa really the best solution, or is the problem less Evolve specifically and maybe just the model of the super large nationwide management platform? Sounds like that may be more the issue rather than a specific national co

It's definitely the national model that's the issue. To be blunt, their business model makes it unavoidable that you'll be dealing with employees that have less than zero stake in your STR business.

They are not incentivized to get you good ratings or bookings or to maximize your profits. The owner liaison (or whatever they're called) will be incentivized to deal with issues as quickly as possible, not to make your guests happy. Or to make the vacation rental owner happy. They are clocking in at 9 and clocking out at 5. Period. The company gets your percentage, but the employees are getting the same salary no matter what.

A local short term rental PM will have more incentive to make sure that they remain a superhost. That means they need your guests happy because it directly affects their profits. They are getting paid a percentage of sales so they have an incentive to get good bookings and maximize rates. They will want to keep overhead down, as well. And they will want you to succeed so you buy more properties to give them and they want you to refer other local owners to them.

4 Reply

Mary Smith

Rental Property Investor · Member since 2021 · 384 posts · 197 votes

3y

@Matthew Spiers Sorry to hear that you had such a terrible experience with them! I really appreciate you sharing your experience with us here on BiggerPockets because I'm sure it will help several owners from having the same experience with this company.

1 Reply

Robin SimonBusiness Member

Lender · Austin, TX · Member since 2022 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes

3y

Quote from @Dan Maciejewski:

Quote from @Robin Simon:

interesting and thanks for sharing this experience - begs the question though, is Vacasa really the best solution, or is the problem less Evolve specifically and maybe just the model of the super large nationwide management platform? Sounds like that may be more the issue rather than a specific national co

It's definitely the national model that's the issue. To be blunt, their business model makes it unavoidable that you'll be dealing with employees that have less than zero stake in your STR business.

They are not incentivized to get you good ratings or bookings or to maximize your profits. The owner liaison (or whatever they're called) will be incentivized to deal with issues as quickly as possible, not to make your guests happy. Or to make the vacation rental owner happy. They are clocking in at 9 and clocking out at 5. Period. The company gets your percentage, but the employees are getting the same salary no matter what.

A local short term rental PM will have more incentive to make sure that they remain a superhost. That means they need your guests happy because it directly affects their profits. They are getting paid a percentage of sales so they have an incentive to get good bookings and maximize rates. They will want to keep overhead down, as well. And they will want you to succeed so you buy more properties to give them and they want you to refer other local owners to them.

definitely agree with all of this. I think STRs are scalable but scalable in specific markets. The best thing about real estate is that you can build a big, profitable cash-flowing business by just knowing a market well and sticking to it, and the market can be small!

I do wonder if the only way to make a national platform work would be a local franchise model, I think that would make sense and have people more aligned

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Michael Skinner

Member since 2020 · 15 posts · 14 votes

3y

@Matthew Spiers in my experience, it tends to be a numbers game to the big-box companies, where they factor churn rate into their acquisition strategy. Hence the demeanor. It makes sense when you think about their overall biz strategy though.

The issue with local managers is they won't follow you into other markets. They're often bulkier and more traditional, too, having been around for a long time so there tends to be a lack of agility when it comes to market or technological forces (i.e. change is hard).

Obviously there are tradeoffs to both...

Which is why I applaud @Robin Simon for bringing up the franchise model because it's actually something we've actually been testing the past few months in an attempt to bridge the gap between between local and national brands.

Similar to @Leslie Anne Morris, I got started with STRs with 1 purchase in Nashville and ended up starting a PM co as a natural byproduct. Now we're managing 35+ across 10+ cities in 4 different states. Suppose we're the type to take DIY to another level, though we still face some logistical challenges from both sides of the table.

But imagine if there was a solution that gave you the scalability and diversity of a national brand with the market expertise and rolodex of a local manager, all for a rate that's better than Evolve's! That's what we're trying to nail down, but it only really works for other DIYers who are all in on RE investing (vs. those who are dipping their toes as a side-hustle).

Keep us updated with your journey! Would love to know if Vacasa ends up being a good solution for you.

Best,
~ Michael

1 Reply

William Beck

Realtor · Branson, MO · Member since 2018 · 272 posts · 283 votes

3y

Sucks to hear that. Speaking of Vacasa being a better alternative though, I was just at the IMN STR conference and they were the lead sponsor... and axed 1,500 employees during the conference, and of which some I understand were attending and notified that way. Very awkward. Hopefully they can figure it out or rescue themselves since the professionalization of the STR management space is important for growth and institutional capital to flow in.

2 Reply

Luka Milicevic

Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

3y

@Matthew Spiers

If you read through Lucas Carl's posts about managing STRs in the smokies he is a big advocate of self managing. Even if you are remote.

Get a good team out there and manage yourself.

He basically says the two options you have when it comes to STR mgt is A)Pay a 40% mgt fee for a decent manager or B) Pay 10% mgt fees and be vacant 95% of the time.

I always encourage my investors, even OOS investors to attempt to manage themselves. If they absolutey hate it after a few months, then try property mgt from there.

3 Reply

Ken Boone

Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

3y

Quote from @Luka Milicevic:

I always encourage my investors, even OOS investors to attempt to manage themselves. If they absolutey hate it after a few months, then try property mgt from there.

Even if you don't want to self manage, doing it for a few months help you to understand the ins and outs of the property better as well as helping you understand in more detail what it takes to manage your property. This gives you more perspective and a better understanding of what your property manager will need to be doing when you move over to one. If you don't start off this way, you are not 100% sure of what you should be expecting out of your property manager. But again.. its not for everyone, it all depends on your goals and where you want to be and what you want to be doing.

2 Reply

Matthew Spiers

OP

Rental Property Investor · Vero Beach, FL · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 13 votes

3y

Quote from @Ken Boone:

@Matthew Spiers Sorry you had to go through that. Have you thought about self managing? That is what a lot folks on this forum do. My properties are in another state as well and we have self managed from the start. I mean you have to spend time managing your virtual property manager spend that time managing your str yourself. It is very doable but not for everyone. Just something to think about.

We did for a while and unfortunately this property wasn't cash-flowing a whole lot which is what made us get out of the STR game. But for anyone looking to avoid this I would either self-manage or find a good cleaner that manages as well. That seems to be somewhat popular and I think would be easier going forward.

0 Reply

Matthew Spiers

OP

Rental Property Investor · Vero Beach, FL · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 13 votes

3y

Quote from @Michael Baum:

Hey @Matthew Spiers, Vacasa isn't much better IMHO and from what I have read. They used to be pretty good when they were small and local, but now... Essentially you would be trading one frying pan for another.

Plus you aren't going to be paying 10%, but more like 30%.

That was what originally steered us away from them. The 30% is honestly insane in my opinion for what seemed like an equal service offering from Evolve. I'm not sure how good they are but Awning I think was another as well.

0 Reply

Matthew Spiers

OP

Rental Property Investor · Vero Beach, FL · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 13 votes

3y

Quote from @Dan Maciejewski:

Quote from @Robin Simon:

interesting and thanks for sharing this experience - begs the question though, is Vacasa really the best solution, or is the problem less Evolve specifically and maybe just the model of the super large nationwide management platform? Sounds like that may be more the issue rather than a specific national co

It's definitely the national model that's the issue. To be blunt, their business model makes it unavoidable that you'll be dealing with employees that have less than zero stake in your STR business.

They are not incentivized to get you good ratings or bookings or to maximize your profits. The owner liaison (or whatever they're called) will be incentivized to deal with issues as quickly as possible, not to make your guests happy. Or to make the vacation rental owner happy. They are clocking in at 9 and clocking out at 5. Period. The company gets your percentage, but the employees are getting the same salary no matter what.

A local short term rental PM will have more incentive to make sure that they remain a superhost. That means they need your guests happy because it directly affects their profits. They are getting paid a percentage of sales so they have an incentive to get good bookings and maximize rates. They will want to keep overhead down, as well. And they will want you to succeed so you buy more properties to give them and they want you to refer other local owners to them.

I love a lot of the discussion going on and I can definitely see the shortfalls of possibly self-managing and instead getting a dedicated local PM. Your reply here looks like it properly sums up what I'm thinking if we get into the STR game again.

0 Reply

Matthew Spiers

OP

Rental Property Investor · Vero Beach, FL · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 13 votes

3y

Quote from @Leslie Anne Morris:

Definitely not a fan of going backwards to self management, but also not a super big fan of Vacasa either. Their model does not work in all markets. Why not interview property managers in your area? Some are doing it right! I wrote this blog post about how to evaluate a property management company:

How to Evaluate a Property Manager for Your Short Term Rental (biggerpockets.com)

Thank you I will definitely be checking that out if we get back into it. We didn't get much cash-flow from this one specific one and I think a lot of people here are saying that you need some of the scalability. I definitely see some pitfalls of self-managing but if we get back into it my opinion would be exactly what you said: find a good local manager that's committed to good results of managing the STR.

1 Reply

Joel Lazar

Investor · Kissimmee, FL · Member since 2020 · 120 posts · 35 votes

3y

I had a similar experience with https://www.itrip.net/. They were super at selling themselves. But they messed up pretty much everything else. Especially quality control, customer service and turnovers. Fired them and found another PM that is doing a pretty good job.

2 Reply

Chris Levarek

Real Estate Syndicator · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2018 · 903 posts · 1k+ votes

3y

@Matthew Spiers Like many suggested, self management or quality partnerships. You are just another # in many cases with the national property management teams.

2 Reply

Collin HaysBusiness Member

Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

3y

Vacasa and Evolve are marketing companies. And if you add in all of their guest fees (that they don't share with you), they are taking 35-40% of the cabin's revenue. Seems like I post this once a week and no one ever catches on.

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STR Owners Beware - Do NOT Work with Evolve If You Value Your Bottom-Line

STR Owners Beware - Do NOT Work with Evolve If You Value Your Bottom-Line

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