Short Term Rental (Snowshoe) Underwrite
Lender · Virginia Beach, VA (Virginia Beach) · Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 2 votes
Short Term Rental (Snowshoe) Underwrite
Most Popular Reply
New to the forum, but have a couple houses at Snowshoe. I short term rent, but also use them myself. IMO, numbers being provided are off. Michael Baum's estimate is probably closer. While a 'four season' resort, the only season is ski season. And while ski season typically starts at Thanksgiving, it doesn't pick up speed until Xmass and lasts until about Mid March (when people forget about skiing because of the warmer temps). That leaves you with 9-12 weeks of rent. Summers are nearly dead, except for a mountain bike and chili cook off weekends.
If you're looking at the older condo's (like Mtn Lodge) they are pretty old, and will require a lot of upkeep. And if you're not handy, and not managing your self, then finding contractors to help with repairs is a huge hurtle. When they decide to tear down mtn lodge or top of the world (which probably won't be to far off), your payout will valued at a depressed assessment.
Same holds true for Silver Creek.
18 Replies
- Lender · Asheville NC · Member since 2016 · 470 posts · 317 votes3y
Quote from @Christopher Cockrille:
Hey all, I currently do not own any properties and am looking to have my first self managed STR. (My wife will help, she was a CAM so has rental property management experience).
I’m underwriting a property at Snowshoe that is a true first floor ski in/out right in front on one of the lifts. The problem is that it’s been quite difficult getting true rental numbers from the agent and owner for this unit. I’ve seen numbers from 16k to 21-22k gross to include also being told that these type of units can easily do 26k gross.
The 1 bed 1 bath condo is listed at 180k, agent thinks I can ask for 170k.
Since this is my first property ever, I don’t want to purchase it based off of fictional higher “it should do this” numbers especially when it’s currently being managed through a property mgmt company that is only grossing 16-22k (numbers far apart as a result of inability to get clarity on true numbers).
If you own condos at Snowshoe, are any of these numbers reasonable? What are you doing? Or with properly self management unit would we do better/worse?
Thanks in advance!
STR Insights is a great tool for data.
theres also pricelabsarket dashboards, airdna and rabbu.
- Lender · Virginia Beach, VA (Virginia Beach) · Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 2 votes3y
Hi Gerald - thank you for posting these tools, I'll take a look. Much appreciated it!
- 3yMichael BaumPro MemberOlympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 7k+ votes
Hey @Christopher Cockrille, so have you looked at competing units in the complex? Check AirBNB and VRBO and see what others are going for.
I think I found the condo and ran the address through the Awning.com estimator. There are 2 other 1/1 in the complex (assuming it is the complex) that have 16k and 13k revenue listed.
The average daily rate for each is $63 and $140. The 16k is 66% occupancy rate and the 13k is 25%.
So I think 26k might be optimistic. The 3/2 in that complex shows 34k with 32% occupancy.
- Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes3yAloha,
You should absolutely ignore the Selling Agent's and Owners numbers, unless they are providing very complete financial reports to back them up. Research the area and comps on your own. If you have signed a separate Buyer's Agency agreement with an Agent, then they should be able to provide some solid information and stats to back it up. Be sure you understand who the "agent" is lawfully representing. - 3ySarah KensingerPro MemberReal Estate Consultant · OH · Member since 2023 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
I don't know much about the area you're looking in, but if you need help running numbers just DM. Managing a rental is very much strategy, what improvements can you make that the other condos don't have that can't boost your numbers, does your property have amazing design, 5-star service, guidebooks to the condo and area, plus carefully planned marketing. If your numbers clear the property so its cash flowing positive you should be ok, then with all these in play typically you can do better than anyone else around.
New to the forum, but have a couple houses at Snowshoe. I short term rent, but also use them myself. IMO, numbers being provided are off. Michael Baum's estimate is probably closer. While a 'four season' resort, the only season is ski season. And while ski season typically starts at Thanksgiving, it doesn't pick up speed until Xmass and lasts until about Mid March (when people forget about skiing because of the warmer temps). That leaves you with 9-12 weeks of rent. Summers are nearly dead, except for a mountain bike and chili cook off weekends.
If you're looking at the older condo's (like Mtn Lodge) they are pretty old, and will require a lot of upkeep. And if you're not handy, and not managing your self, then finding contractors to help with repairs is a huge hurtle. When they decide to tear down mtn lodge or top of the world (which probably won't be to far off), your payout will valued at a depressed assessment.
Same holds true for Silver Creek.
- Lender · Virginia Beach, VA (Virginia Beach) · Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 2 votes3y
Quote from @Michael Baum:
Hey @Christopher Cockrille, so have you looked at competing units in the complex? Check AirBNB and VRBO and see what others are going for.
I think I found the condo and ran the address through the Awning.com estimator. There are 2 other 1/1 in the complex (assuming it is the complex) that have 16k and 13k revenue listed.
The average daily rate for each is $63 and $140. The 16k is 66% occupancy rate and the 13k is 25%.
So I think 26k might be optimistic. The 3/2 in that complex shows 34k with 32% occupancy.
Hi Michael, apologies for the delayed response. New to this app. Thank you for your reply.
I have looked a few competing units but in all honesty, I was not completely sure how to do a comparison based off the listing price since there is dynamic pricing. In other words, I wasn't sure how to get the avg daily rate from a single listing to create a rough quote to do the comparison.
Based on what you were able to dig up (thank you for that) I agree that it does sound like 26k is quite optimistic. Perhaps with a bit more experience, I'd be able to say that I could achieve that. However, this being my first property I felt it might not be the best property to learn on. - Lender · Virginia Beach, VA (Virginia Beach) · Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 2 votes3y
Quote from @Richard F.:
Aloha,
You should absolutely ignore the Selling Agent's and Owners numbers, unless they are providing very complete financial reports to back them up. Research the area and comps on your own. If you have signed a separate Buyer's Agency agreement with an Agent, then they should be able to provide some solid information and stats to back it up. Be sure you understand who the "agent" is lawfully representing.
Hi Richard, apologies for the delayed response. New to this app. Thank you for your reply.
I eventually was able to get much more accurate numbers from the seller. I received roughly $16k gross which was a combination of both the mgmt company and AirBNB. This is quite low and perhaps if I was more experienced (this would have been my first property) I could say that I could easily ignore owner numbers because I know what I bring to the table. Unfortunately, I'm not in that position yet and found myself trying to make the numbers work far too often during this deal underwrite. - Lender · Virginia Beach, VA (Virginia Beach) · Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 2 votes3yHi Sarah, apologies for the delayed response. New to this app. Thank you for your reply.
Quote from @Sarah Kensinger:
I don't know much about the area you're looking in, but if you need help running numbers just DM. Managing a rental is very much strategy, what improvements can you make that the other condos don't have that can't boost your numbers, does your property have amazing design, 5-star service, guidebooks to the condo and area, plus carefully planned marketing. If your numbers clear the property so its cash flowing positive you should be ok, then with all these in play typically you can do better than anyone else around.
I appreciate your offer, that's very kind. From my newbie perspective, I would agree that there is a substantial amount of strategy that comes into play that differentiates one investor from the next. I'm confident that we would do those things you listed, I suppose I just lack the overall confidence from not having a rental under my belt yet. I'll need to take the leap at some point, it just felt like I was forcing the numbers too much on this one. - 3ySarah KensingerPro MemberReal Estate Consultant · OH · Member since 2023 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Quote from @Christopher Cockrille:
Hi Sarah, apologies for the delayed response. New to this app. Thank you for your reply.Quote from @Sarah Kensinger:
I don't know much about the area you're looking in, but if you need help running numbers just DM. Managing a rental is very much strategy, what improvements can you make that the other condos don't have that can't boost your numbers, does your property have amazing design, 5-star service, guidebooks to the condo and area, plus carefully planned marketing. If your numbers clear the property so its cash flowing positive you should be ok, then with all these in play typically you can do better than anyone else around.
I appreciate your offer, that's very kind. From my newbie perspective, I would agree that there is a substantial amount of strategy that comes into play that differentiates one investor from the next. I'm confident that we would do those things you listed, I suppose I just lack the overall confidence from not having a rental under my belt yet. I'll need to take the leap at some point, it just felt like I was forcing the numbers too much on this one.Your more than fine! You probably would do everything I listed because you're self-managing. ;) For some people self-managing is just flat not for them, but usually I property can do better than what most people think if the owner has done their DD when it comes to running a STR.
The numbers are hard right now, so hard! If you want a deal you have to look and look. then not waste any time when it does come up! I wouldn't force the numbers, it's just not worth the risk and I promise other deals will come up! And don't lose your confidence! Your mindset makes up 95% of who you are and if your confident you can run a STR well, then you'll run a STR well! - 3yMichael PorchePro MemberRental Property Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2017 · 220 posts · 101 votes
Hey @Christopher Cockrille! Great Question! This is a great question. If your margins are that thin as is I personally wouldn't go for that as a deal unless I knew I could double the revenue in that scenario at best.If its something you are debating on... I would ask yourself... what makes you think you can produce another 4k-10k of revenue over what they are doing now? If they are already producing at that level then likely you'll be producing at that level as well. However if you have a plan in place where you can ensure you can increase the revenue with better marketing, more services or overall adding value then yes of course you can make more. I would look at the opportunity closely but if 26k is at best then thats very low to work with
- New to Real Estate · NY · Member since 2020 · 72 posts · 42 votes2y
@Matt Cass Hey Matt, just curious if you had the Airbnb link to your few houses in Snowshoe. I was looking at a house that supposedly did 100k in revenue in 2022 and I don't know if that was mostly in those 9-12 weeks of busy season or how its possible to do that much revenue with that much seasonality.
To get that kind of revenue it would have to be a large house in Westridge and I'm guessing ski-in ski-out. Even still I would be skeptical of those numbers.
And I concur that almost all revenue would be when the mountain is open during the winter + 2-3 major events in the summer.
Side note... people don't realize how nice the weather is in Snowshoe during the summer. When it's 95 degrees and 95% humidity in DC it's 72 and dry on the mountain.
Gimer Law516 Reviews- Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
I have done those numbers and more at Snowshoe. I have 2, 2 units in Mountain Lodge. So far its been a win win and my best performing assets in my portfolio. However, its difficult to gauge what others can do because there are multiple dynamics to consider and multiple moving parts. You have to consider which resort, how it looks, how its managed, how are the ratings and tons of of stuff. There are people there killing the game, profiting all over and others who complain about losing every season. STR can be so profitable if done correctly but very difficult or back breaking. It just depends.
@Mark Cruse Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was responding @Matt Schreiber regarding a property generating 100k in 2022.
Gimer Law516 ReviewsI'm guessing this new listing is our $100k for 2022 Snowshoe STR:
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/945-S-West...
It's just a few yards away from a $2.5mm new construction beast. Those of us with cabins on the west ridge appreciate this development!
Unfortunately as a guest if you are not an experienced skier or boarder, you're about to "ski out" your door into what I think may be the steepest slope in the entire SE region -- Lower Shay's Revenge.
Gimer Law516 Reviews- Investor · KY · Member since 2022 · 204 posts · 77 votes2y
Quote from @Christopher Cockrille:
Hey all, I currently do not own any properties and am looking to have my first self managed STR. (My wife will help, she was a CAM so has rental property management experience).
I’m underwriting a property at Snowshoe that is a true first floor ski in/out right in front on one of the lifts. The problem is that it’s been quite difficult getting true rental numbers from the agent and owner for this unit. I’ve seen numbers from 16k to 21-22k gross to include also being told that these type of units can easily do 26k gross.
The 1 bed 1 bath condo is listed at 180k, agent thinks I can ask for 170k.
Since this is my first property ever, I don’t want to purchase it based off of fictional higher “it should do this” numbers especially when it’s currently being managed through a property mgmt company that is only grossing 16-22k (numbers far apart as a result of inability to get clarity on true numbers).
If you own condos at Snowshoe, are any of these numbers reasonable? What are you doing? Or with properly self management unit would we do better/worse?
Thanks in advance!
Mashvisor is another great resource to let you gain an understanding if snowshoe is even a market you would want to be in. STR investing can be alot and a 20k gross number is not much for all the headache potentially.
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