Ski Areas - STR Markets
Investor · Asheville, NC · Member since 2008 · 12 posts · 6 votes
Ski Areas - STR Markets
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Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2011 · 322 posts · 238 votes
5yMarriot Homes and Villas seems to think so. They have acquired 4000 single family properties to operate as STRs in the past year alone, many in ski areas, and all high end. Do they know something I don't ?
I have an STR in a ski area in Colorado and we are up 155% from last December. Demand is insatiable, it may be a COVID bump, but I tend to think not. We raised our price projections 3 times this year throughout the year as demand increased.
Our new years eve guests cancelled recently, they had our place booked for 5 nights at $900 night. After the cancellation, we raised our price for that week and had it booked within 36hrs for $1400 per night. In ski towns across America, housing prices are at an all time high demand is at all time high and supply all time low. Is now the time to buy? At the right price I certainly would.
27 Replies
- Investor · Bellevue, WA · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 43 votes5y
Resort towns have had an explosion in prices! That being said vacation bookings are higher and rental rates are increasing. Personally, I am not sure the increase in rental rates justifies the increase in house prices.
- Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2011 · 322 posts · 238 votes5y
Marriot Homes and Villas seems to think so. They have acquired 4000 single family properties to operate as STRs in the past year alone, many in ski areas, and all high end. Do they know something I don't ?
I have an STR in a ski area in Colorado and we are up 155% from last December. Demand is insatiable, it may be a COVID bump, but I tend to think not. We raised our price projections 3 times this year throughout the year as demand increased.
Our new years eve guests cancelled recently, they had our place booked for 5 nights at $900 night. After the cancellation, we raised our price for that week and had it booked within 36hrs for $1400 per night. In ski towns across America, housing prices are at an all time high demand is at all time high and supply all time low. Is now the time to buy? At the right price I certainly would.
- Investor · Asheville, NC · Member since 2008 · 12 posts · 6 votes5y
Thanks for sharing Marcello. It will be interesting to see how ski day booking restrictions affect things. I think Vail has an earnings report coming out shortly that should help shed a little more light. I hope it’s a big powder year.
- Vail, CO · Member since 2020 · 1 post · 4 votes5y
I live in Vail and I can tell you the summer was crazy. House prices have gone crazy. Most homes that come on the market are pending within a few days. I'm not sure how the winter will pan out as restaurants are currently limited to 25% capacity but the mountain is open. Aspen prices are up 50% I believe, with 60 plus % of all sales cash buys. Good summary here. https://coloradohardmoney.com/...
- 5yRyan MoyerBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Orlando Kissimmee Davenport Salt Lake City, Park City · Member since 2019 · 996 posts · 1k+ votes
I live right outside Park City so while I would have loved to buy there, I just couldn't make the numbers work in my head. It's hard to make it work with property values so high and rentals so seasonal. I assume Marriott is getting much more competitive pricing on 4000 units than I can get as a regular guy buying 1.
I suppose you could probably break even with maybe some sugar on top if you want to use it yourself but just seemed like I could double (or more) the gross income in a stronger STR market for the same investment amount. Granted that was just Park City, I never looked in Colorado.
Cosmic Vacations4.9175 Reviews - Real Estate Broker · Vail, CO · Member since 2015 · 8 posts · 3 votes5y
I can echo Rod’s comments. You’re over a year, trust all of Eagle County, sales prices are up 23% and active listings are down 41%.
We used to see more of an opportunity in long-term rentals, however, now with more people managing their own short-term rentals and eliminating the property management fees, it is becoming more profitable to go that way if you’re willing to work since this is more of a job than simply an investment.
- Real Estate Agent · Denver CO and Summit County, CO · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 43 votes5y
@Marcello Di Gerlando wowzers! That is incredible! Good for you.
- Real Estate Agent · Denver CO and Summit County, CO · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 43 votes5y
@Chad Martin I agree with the previous comments that 2020 has seen unprecedented demand, and it is not likely to subside any time soon. I still believe there is pent up demand for STR from people being in their homes and not flying. I can also attest to prices going through the roof. I am in Frisco, and the lowest listing right now is $1M. That is a lot of rental nights!
- 1yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votesIt subsided.
Quote from @Candice De:
@Chad Martin I agree with the previous comments that 2020 has seen unprecedented demand, and it is not likely to subside any time soon. I still believe there is pent up demand for STR from people being in their homes and not flying. I can also attest to prices going through the roof. I am in Frisco, and the lowest listing right now is $1M. That is a lot of rental nights!
- Property Manager · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2018 · 280 posts · 221 votes5y
@Marcello Di Gerlando that’s incredible! Wowzaa good for you!
@Chad Martin great question! I am curious as I’ve seen some resorts limiting the amount of guest parking at the base areas so I’m sure ski in/ski out or walkable to base area will be even more desirable this year.
Piggybacking on your question for you and others, if you had to name the top 5 ski resort towns to
Invest in what would they be?
- Rental Property Investor · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2019 · 36 posts · 20 votes5y
Originally posted by @Bob Lett:
@Chad Martin great question! I am curious as I’ve seen some resorts limiting the amount of guest parking at the base areas so I’m sure ski in/ski out or walkable to base area will be even more desirable this year.
Piggybacking on your question for you and others, if you had to name the top 5 ski resort towns to
Invest in what would they be?
My quick stab...
Steamboat Springs, CO (Southwest just started flying here, ranked best ski town last year)
Summit County, CO (sheer population boom to Denver is no brainer)
Lake Tahoe, CA (second home boom in Truckee, Incline Village, etc. areas from mass exodus of Bay Area)
Park City, Utah (proximity to airport and large/growing population base)
Not sure of #5, maybe Stowe VT (Burlington) area
- Real Estate Agent · Denver CO and Summit County, CO · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 43 votes5y
@Brett Rosenbauer you have a great list going!
I live in Frisco, so I am biased toward Summit County, CO.
I also think Crested Butte has some opportunity with the new builds in town and walkable condos.
I echo your sentiments about Tahoe.
Others I would add are Big Sky, MT and Sun Valley, ID.
Though all of these have seen pretty crazy appreciation the last 5 years, the ski pass consolidation is helping make out of state resorts more appealing to all skiers.
- Real Estate Broker · Vail, CO · Member since 2015 · 8 posts · 3 votes5y
I would add Winter Park to the list. With Alterra money in the resort and private money developing Roam in town, we could see a lot happen there. Ski train from Denver and less time on I-70 is enticing for those living in Denver.
Vail is too expensive for a solid ROI, however, opportunity occasionally presents itself in/around Beaver Creek or other Eagle County neighborhoods, but one would be looking at (speculating on) appreciation to balance a lower ROI here.
- Rental Property Investor · Essex Junction, VT · Member since 2020 · 11 posts · 5 votes5y
I think STRs near ski resorts are still a good investment but I'm worried about the long term for them. Some resorts are pivoting and adding mountain biking, indoor water parks, skate parks, etc. which is great. I would look at resorts that are planning for revenue outside of the winter months.
This is a great video on the current trend in ski resorts. It even has the president of Sugarbush here in Vermont talking about the challenges they face.
- Investor · The worst town to live in, KS · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes5y
Back in the late 70's my dad took our family to Vail Colorado for a ski vacation. We stayed in a condo at the bottom of the mountain. It was literally a 100 yard walk to the ski lift. Flash forward 20 years. He tells me the story about going to Vail and staying at a condo. He could have bought it back then for 25k, but thought that was too much money. My dad said those condos are now going for 2.5 million.
- Lender · Vail, CO · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 1 vote5y
I live and work in the Vail valley. I just financed a 3 unit investment property for a local investor that has a few properties here. He purchased down valley (West). I agree with Michael, that good deals are hard to find.
- Real Estate Agent · Salem, MA · Member since 2014 · 114 posts · 78 votes5y
Hi @Chad Martin
I am a skier and am interested in the idea of buying on/in mountain towns for personal use and short term rental. With that said, I don't yet have a mountain home. I am in the north east, so I look at Maine, and Vermont mostly for my "research". My thought is that I would buy where I would typically go anyways, so that I can use the home when I am not renting it out. I think Newry/Bethel, Maine (Sunday River) could be solid, and I like Carrabassett Valley, Maine (Sugar Loaf). I think the Air BNB numbers work compared to the purchase price of some of these homes. But, I would also go to these mountains anyways, and they are just far enough way that it wouldn't be the most fun day trip (3+ hours away). I wouldn't get into the home unless I could cover the home expenses on my own , that way I have a little bit of a back stop.
Also, with the popularized multi-mountain passes (Epic and Ikon are the big guys), it can make your choice to buy where you ski a little easier, because you can still hop around to other mountains. And potentially see more visitors, instead of just the person who only has a season pass to one mountain.
How would you approach your area purchase? Do you have a favorite mountain? Are they just far enough away from a metro area where a day trip would be exhausting, but a weekend trip would be worth it? Does that location offer a summer or fall activity that would bring in off season visitors?
Good luck with your research!
Jon
@Jon McCarron outside of Killington the northeast is overshadowed by the west. I use to work at Ragged Mountain in NH when I lived in New England. I wish I would have had more knowledge back then as that is a growing resort that gets a lot of weekend and daily traffic.
With small to mid size ski areas you may want to do some research and look at their growth plans. Opportunities are out there and some you may just have to get in early and be patient.
- 5yCliff H.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Nashua, NH · Member since 2014 · 610 posts · 486 votes
@Chad Martin hard to separate ski town growth from the macro growth across the entire sector. Certainly there’s been hotspots like Park City, but when researching that a few years back it seemed to be all about things like Sundance allowing owners to cover a year’s mortgage with a single week of rental at sky high prices.
@Jon McCarron happy to share my experiences investing in ski STRs across both NH and VT. Here in the northeast I suspect you will find summer months are actually more profitable: longer season, longer vacations, and far less variability in conditions, which ultimately drives folks to the mountains.
I'd also be cautious about looking only in the shadow of the big mountains, particularly in place like Newry or others where all your eggs are in one mountain basket. I've found plenty of success in hitching my STR wagon to smaller towns within 20 minutes to multiple resorts. The icing on the cake is continuing to support well-needed smaller, independently owned resorts and towns over the soul-sucking corporate behemoths of Ikon and Epic, which a terrible financial deal anyway next to the regional ski councils and the amazing upstart IndySkiPass.com anyway.
- Architect · St. Charles, IL · Member since 2018 · 95 posts · 70 votes1y
I’ve been interested in the idea of STR in northern Vermont. Are you still investing in the area? What sort of success are you having?
Quote from @Cliff H.:
@Chad Martin hard to separate ski town growth from the macro growth across the entire sector. Certainly there’s been hotspots like Park City, but when researching that a few years back it seemed to be all about things like Sundance allowing owners to cover a year’s mortgage with a single week of rental at sky high prices.
@Jon McCarron happy to share my experiences investing in ski STRs across both NH and VT. Here in the northeast I suspect you will find summer months are actually more profitable: longer season, longer vacations, and far less variability in conditions, which ultimately drives folks to the mountains.
I'd also be cautious about looking only in the shadow of the big mountains, particularly in place like Newry or others where all your eggs are in one mountain basket. I've found plenty of success in hitching my STR wagon to smaller towns within 20 minutes to multiple resorts. The icing on the cake is continuing to support well-needed smaller, independently owned resorts and towns over the soul-sucking corporate behemoths of Ikon and Epic, which a terrible financial deal anyway next to the regional ski councils and the amazing upstart IndySkiPass.com anyway.
- Real Estate Agent · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2015 · 126 posts · 73 votes5y
Originally posted by @Michael Routh:
I would add Winter Park to the list. With Alterra money in the resort and private money developing Roam in town, we could see a lot happen there. Ski train from Denver and less time on I-70 is enticing for those living in Denver.
Vail is too expensive for a solid ROI, however, opportunity occasionally presents itself in/around Beaver Creek or other Eagle County neighborhoods, but one would be looking at (speculating on) appreciation to balance a lower ROI here.
I think it comes down to how you look at things. (It also depends on your investment strategy and how you prioritize cashflow vs. appreciation, etc.) If you take a traditional investment approach of trying to buy a property that is done or needs little maintenance it can be tough to cash flow in many ski areas (I'm generalizing here). If you are willing to put in some work on a property that needs it, there's more potential. If you want to build, it can be horrible or amazing. Even areas that are "lesser known" have issues as while the properties might be less expensive, rents tend to be significantly lower. Case in point, I bought a house in downtown Whitefish, MT 15 years ago. It was cheap. The market wasn't "found out" yet. Today, it finally breaks even from a cash flow perspective. I've only held onto it because I have an emotional attachment to the area. Financially, I probably should have gotten rid of it years ago. But now the area is blowing up and over priced in my opinion. Of course I can't complain as the appreciation on the house I bought 15 years ago is amazing. But that really just happened in the past few years + the COVID bump.
My general thought, however, is if you can think outside of the box (from location, to build approach, to zoning, etc.), I think you can find opportunity anywhere.
EXAMPLE:
I just finished building two pre-fab homes in Fraser, Colorado. For those not familiar with Fraser, it's basically connected to the town of Winter Park. You can see Winter Park Ski resort from my property. Lot of work, time and stress (my GC went to jail!), but got it done in a way that I built instant equity and cashflow. Oh, and I was able to refinance from my construction loans into two 30 year fixed loans and pulled all of my money out so I have $0 in these deals. So again with creative thinking, opportunities are anywhere.With that said, I'll shift back to the main topic which is what area could offer strong investment potential. I'll say that I agree with Michael as well on the Winter Park comment. I would broaden it to the entire Grand County area from Winter Park up through Grand Lake. It's a fast growing area. There are not enough workers/contractors/tradesmen to get done what you want at a reasonable price so you often have to bring up workers from the front range area. But it can be done. Throw on top of that, the fires had a devastating impact on the area around Grand Lake. I heard it destroyed around 250 homes, but haven't fact checked this myself. Regardless, the supply has decreased. Before the fire the supply was already limited, and now it is even more limited.
The area to me, has many parallels to Roaring Fork Valley (Aspen to Glenwood Springs). It has a ski resort on one end of the valley. A river down through it. And a hot springs at the other end. (Hot Sulphur Springs in the case of the Grand County area.) Beyond this, it also has water. Not a common thing in Colorado. It has Grand Lake, Shadow Mountain Lake and Lake Granby. Oh and the resort, as Michael mentioned, isn't far from the front range/denver area. Throw on top of that the fact that it's the only train served ski resort in Colorado (you can fly to denver, take the light rail to denver, then board a train to Winter Park resort or the town of Fraser). These are just a few things great about the area. Lots of development is happening. Yes Roam is going to be a big development. Rendezvous is still building. There are many other smaller projects along the way. Multi-multi Million dollar homes are beging built of Highway 8 in Fraser. Ski Granby (small resort in Granby) just got new ownership and is doing some cool stuff with Bode Miller. So lots going on.
Happy to provide more details or thoughts, but this post is already getting kind of long. Hope it's contents are helpful!
Michael
- Rental Property Investor · NY MA CT VT MT, MO · Member since 2015 · 200 posts · 116 votes5y
Wow excellent thoughts, @Michael Glunk, thanks for that...
Wait, @Michael Routh, what's going on with the I-70 train, is that in the works? I unfortunately left CO almost 20 years ago, and they wouldn't even approve $500k to do a feasability study on it! Is it finally maybe happening? I remember leaving Copper mountain at 2 pm to beat the traffic back to the Front Range, and instead getting snarled in worse traffic, getting home at 8 pm. Swore off Summit county on that account!
- Investor · Big Sky, MT · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 28 votes5y
@Carmen Dettloff
I agree. Cash flow is nearly impossible to find now in Big Sky, Montana for any property short-term or long-term. Not only that, prices are so high our local banks won’t even finance investment properties in Big Sky. Cash buyers!
- 5yCliff H.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Nashua, NH · Member since 2014 · 610 posts · 486 votes
I’ve skied all over the world and followed a similar path described by a few folks here of moving from over a decade in LTRs to now almost exclusively STRs or niche market rentals (NH and VT so far). Happy to connect you with my superstar Realtor, Richard Dale-Mesaros who’s extremely knowledgeable about the NH White Mountain area being an investor himself.
My advice advice given the explosion of big mountain prices is to get the list of every mountain on the IKON and Epic passes… then immediately scratch them off your short list for investment. Pricing has jumped the shark and unless you’re investing in areas that ski 9/12 months of the year you’re already in a losing proposition counting on only ski rental, particularly when you, yourself, may be competing for those rental dollars! I actually was curious this past week and went poking around looking at prices around the country at various top tier and second tier resorts, often based off those paid-for “best ski towns to invest in” lists that come out each year. The thing is, everyone else is doing the same thing and many of them deeper pockets than your or I.
Moreover, you need places that will rent out at least 6-9 months out of the year. In contrast to what I assumed, the majority of my rental income here in the northeast comes from summer rentals since that’s school vacation weeks and no matter what you’re charging on ski weekends it’s not matching the rent from an entire week’s summer stay.
Start looking at the places you’ve stayed yourself and get to know what those places look like in other parts of the year as well. That’s a far more realistic path to identifying a market you’d be comfortable operating in, which is inherently different based on the goals you’ve written down (or are about to write down after reading this).
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