Hello from The City That Never Sleeps - NYC

Hello from The City That Never Sleeps - NYC

New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 136 posts · 76 votes

Hello everyone.

I'm 28 years old, working in the hedge fund industry in NYC and would like to start investing in real estate. I've always felt somewhat drawn to real estate ever since I was very young and am not ashamed to say that at age 7 or 8 I would watch the early morning infomercials with fascination as I saw how easy it was to build your net worth with NO MONEY DOWN and just hours a week.

I have a fairly robust background in investing given that my current job requires it, an undergraduate degree in a finance and the beginnings of a CFA charter, so at very least I have a cursory understanding of RE finance, especially from a numbers point of view. The problem is, the numbers aspect is just about where my knowledge ends -- if only RE investing were done on a spreadsheet and a telephone.

It's pretty obvious that BP offers a very extensive resource, so I've taken the time to read all of the "newbie" articles, listen to each of the podcasts, and generally consumer about 90% of the information that you have on this site geared toward starting out, marketing, etc. Now that the rubber has to start to meet the road, it's somewhat tough for me to figure out what direction to take or a real actionable first step, and I was hoping for a bit of direction from the folks on the forum who have more experience in RE investing in general, and investing in the NYC area more specifically.

My long-term goal is to own MF rental properties, ultimately building up a large enough portfolio to replace my current income (or at enough of it to pursue this full time). I'm lucky enough to have a pretty decent chunk of capital to start out with, so I feel like this might make starting out somewhat easier. My more short-term goal would be to acquire my first MF home and start to gain some experience / contacts. Also, I plan to join NYCREIA in short order, per recommendations on BP.

My questions are 3:

1) Where do you recommend that someone in NYC begins to look for MF homes with a focus on CF rather than appreciation (market appreciation not, equity created through rehab)? I have some hesitations about straying TOO far from home, particularly because my job demands a lot of travel, which makes lots of weekend travel to tend properties less than desirable.

2) Once I've chosen that market, is the first step simply to publish a website and begin to market?

3) Would you generally consider marketing absolutely necessary - I've heard opinions, and it seems general consensus is that you MUST market.

3b) Quick opinion poll : Yellow letters, post cards, or form letters?

I hope that the above was reasonably succinct, but if you need any clarification or have any questions, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

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Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
13y

why focus on cash flow and not on appreciation? If you're in NYC you have a wonderful opportunity to get into a gentrifying neighborhood. Imagine being in williamsburg several years ago. Cha-Ching!

Being your first place, you also have the opportunity to buy 3-4 units and owner occupy. One of the best ways to start IMO. Done right- promising upcoming hood, bldg that needs some TLC, and you take a smaller unit, you can live pretty cheaply. Then by adding renovations, increasing rents, and marke upside, you may be able to refi 1-2 years from now and buy another prop. Plus you lock in a low 30 year fixed rate. Keep this place as a long term rental, even if you move out. Equity-eventual cash flow-low fixed rate is a winning recipe, as long as you get into upward mobile hoods.

That's what I did in San Francisco for 19 years. Made all my money on incredible appreciation, whereby I was able to pull equity out and buy again. Cash flow for me was always something to be managed, not the main goal.

Look at all the rich people in NYC that buy flats all cash, just to park their money. Not the most efficient way to create wealth, but why do they do it? Because the right neighborhoods in NYC are golden as long term appreciation buy/holds. Same here in SF.

Don't know where you live, but I'd seriously look at parts of Brooklyn that have upside. Follow the hipsters. W-burg is done- yuppies moving in there now and it's expensive. Really study neighborhoods carefully. Read local blogs. Walk around and identify the hoods you think will pop in the next 2-3 years; then focus on finding the right 2-4 unit bldg. It's a lot of fun, and rewarding. That's all I do nowadays :)

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  • Contractor · Valparaiso , IN · Member since 2013 · 604 posts · 327 votes
    13y

    Welcome to the site. Unfortunately I can't give you any advice on NYC itself, but I can tell you that a lot of the work in REI has to do with spreadsheets and formulas.

    I woud imagine NYC REI is going to require a strong knowledge of different neighborhoods, one block will be vastly different than the next. Start studying a lot about the demographics of each and find out where you want to invest.

    Check the BP fileplace here http://www.biggerpockets.com/files and you can find some spread sheets to help you analyze deals. I started off analyzing tons of deals just as practice. This will help you get a good grasp on the right way to compute the deal. Expect to analyze 100, make offers on 10 and get 1 deal.

    As for marketing, most of the marketing that your reading about is for wholesaling, although it can help create contacts. If I was looking for MFs I would be more interested in networking then marketing.

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 136 posts · 76 votes
    13y

    I've been in NYC for the last 7 years, so I know the neighborhoods very well.

    Is it true that you don't market for any type of RE but wholesaling?

  • House Flipper · East Stroudsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 205 votes
    13y

    Welcome to the BP family. I would find a Real Estate Agent in the area you that you feel you are most interested in and let them know exactly what you are looking for that you are interested in buying the right property that meets your guidelines. I'm considered rather demanding in my guidelines but it works out for both parties, if the property does not meet my criteria the Real Estate person can sell it to someone else. I'm a flipper not a buy and hold and I am only interested in single family homes. I believe the real estate people appreciate guidelines and when they know you are for real they will work in your behalf. I would also go to the real estate clubs and meet like minded people for short cuts to your success.

    Again welcome aboard.

  • Specialist · Rockland, MA · Member since 2010 · 7k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    @Riley F.

    Welcome.

    Check out the Start Here page http://www.biggerpockets.com/starthere

    Locate and attend 3 different local REIA club meetings great place to meet people gather resources and info.You could find someone experienced fund there deal for the learnings.

    Two Great reads, I bought both J. Scott The Book on Flipping Houses,The Book on Estimating ReHab Costs http://www.biggerpockets.com/flippingbook

    Consider checking out HUD homes for small multi's owner occupied gets first crack.

    I have a buddy who is an REO broker he tells me he sees properties in NYC you can get for 100K put 50K in and sell for close to 300K.

    Good Luck

    Paul

  • Darren SagerPro Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    @Riley F. Welcome to BP! How many commercials did I see for Carlton Sheets and his no money down buying of real estate. And wasn't there also some Asian guy on a boat with a bunch of attractive women who used to do infomercials as well? What an industry we love so much. I don't know what the allure of it is however I'm in the same boat as you.

    First step I would draw a circle around where you live and how far you're willing to travel for your first investment. Try to keep it under 30 minutes but up to an hour driving if the opportunity is good.

    Second step I would do is find an investor real estate agents as they will be no cost to you. Give them the neighborhoods that you're interested in and let them be out looking for you in addition to whatever marketing you'll be doing on your own. If you don't know a good REI Agent let me know and I'll get you some choices.

    Thirdly how handy are you? The more you can do yourself instead of hiring out a contractor will increase your ROI. Keep in mind that most municipalities will only allow a licensed plumber or electrician to work on a multi family home because other people's lives are at stake. Never really understood this if you get the work inspected they'll still check to make sure you did the right job but that's how it goes.

    Start making connections when it comes to contractors and other real estate investors. Good ones are hard to find and they usually cost a fortune. Networking with the right group can save you time and money. Always ask questions and get a written estimate for your work. Check to make sure they're licensed with the state and have all proper insurance.

    Timing is everything with finding a property. Never get upset if you can't find one or you miss out on one. There will always be another for you just make sure you've got all your financials together so you can make an offer the moment the opportunity presents itself.

    And be sure to join the local BP group that meets up. It would be good to see you there.

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 136 posts · 76 votes
    13y

    @Darren Sager

    Thanks for your very helpful response. The circle is actually how I started narrowing down locations, though I haven't gotten much more specific. I think once a visit a couple of local REIA meetings I'll start to narrow my focus. I often feel like the French army in my approach to these things... "Ready... Aim... Aim... Aim... Aim..."

    When is the next meet up in NYC, or is there a link to the group? I'd love to grab a coffee or a beer with you if you're in Manhattan the week of the 14th. It's a poor bribe, but I won't take much of your time and just want to pick your brain. Shoot me a note if you've got any free time.

    Thanks

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    why focus on cash flow and not on appreciation? If you're in NYC you have a wonderful opportunity to get into a gentrifying neighborhood. Imagine being in williamsburg several years ago. Cha-Ching!

    Being your first place, you also have the opportunity to buy 3-4 units and owner occupy. One of the best ways to start IMO. Done right- promising upcoming hood, bldg that needs some TLC, and you take a smaller unit, you can live pretty cheaply. Then by adding renovations, increasing rents, and marke upside, you may be able to refi 1-2 years from now and buy another prop. Plus you lock in a low 30 year fixed rate. Keep this place as a long term rental, even if you move out. Equity-eventual cash flow-low fixed rate is a winning recipe, as long as you get into upward mobile hoods.

    That's what I did in San Francisco for 19 years. Made all my money on incredible appreciation, whereby I was able to pull equity out and buy again. Cash flow for me was always something to be managed, not the main goal.

    Look at all the rich people in NYC that buy flats all cash, just to park their money. Not the most efficient way to create wealth, but why do they do it? Because the right neighborhoods in NYC are golden as long term appreciation buy/holds. Same here in SF.

    Don't know where you live, but I'd seriously look at parts of Brooklyn that have upside. Follow the hipsters. W-burg is done- yuppies moving in there now and it's expensive. Really study neighborhoods carefully. Read local blogs. Walk around and identify the hoods you think will pop in the next 2-3 years; then focus on finding the right 2-4 unit bldg. It's a lot of fun, and rewarding. That's all I do nowadays :)

  • Landlord · NY · Member since 2013 · 23 posts · 5 votes
    13y

    @Riley- you have the right idea in terms of trying to do things for Cash Flow.

    Ironically- there is a function tomorrow @ the NY Hilton: www.nycrealestateexpo.com

    In general, you would have to immerse yourself in the RE community. A lot of different organizations (REBNY, ICSC, Retail, MF, Commercial organizations) so being active on the scene helps

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    So are you wanting to wholesale then? Different than buy and holds?

    Oh, and welcome to BP! :)

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 136 posts · 76 votes
    13y

    @Account Closed

    thanks for the note - unfortunately I'm out of town for business all week.

    @Ali Boone

    No, not really looking to wholesale, only buy and hold.

    @Amit M.

    My focus on cash flow is mainly because I think that it is more predictable and forecastable than appreciation. Lets say Wall Street stagnates, which drives the whole NYC, economy from the top. All of a sudden real estate prices in the middle stagnate and then fall. I am not convinced that the current rate of job growth, nor the bonus sizes I'm seeing across the street are enough to sustain the current rate of gentrification. It's a bit like a game of musical chairs - everyone is having tons of fun while the music is playing, but once it stops, and no one really can say when it will, someone is left in tears because they bought an asset based not on the value of future cash flows (value investing) they bought on growth prospects (growth investing). I think a hybrid style like GARP might work in REI, but I just don't have enough info to say.

    Not saying growth investing can't be done, but that's just not how my head works.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    ^ appreciate your POV, but to challenge your notions a bit.

    1- I think you're over empasizing the dominance of wall st. jobs; NYC is quite diverse economically; tech, medical, new media, many unique private businesses, etc.

    2- speaking at least for manhattan and parts of Brooklyn, they are major destinations and are in demand event in slow economy (yes growth is affected, but at least you don't see -40% drops in appreciation like you do in FL, AZ, etc.) also loads of foreign money buys NYC RE.

    3- given the recent downturn winding down, I highly expect RE growth in the next 2-3 years. This is a great time to get into a decent deal in a good hood IMO.

    4- be careful about comparing stock concepts (growth vs income, etc.) RE is an inefficient market with lots of distortions (especially highly desirable ones like manhattan and San Fran.) I succeeded by learning the myriad of less obvious, and often counter intuitive nuances that impact my specific markets.

    * btw how the hell do you get that "@riley f" thing on the top of reply posts?!?

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 136 posts · 76 votes
    13y

    @Amit M.

    Type @ and the first characters of the name and it should pop up so that you can click on it.

    I agree with you, I don't think they can be applied 1:1, though an asset is an asset, and valuation should, theoretically at least, reflect the value of future cash flows. The concept if growth works because of the growth factor applied to the present cash flows, as you obviously know. I just think forecasting growth rates are much harder than taking current cf and assuming they grow in line with inflation, but again it's a comfort thing. I also think some people have a knack for it, a knack that I don't have yet.

    I agree Wall Street isn't the end all be all, but I do think it shouldn't be underestimated as a rent driver. Check out the below, falling bonuses have troubling knock effects and other industries will have trouble taking up the slack:

    http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20130122/BLOGS01/301229992#

    The average Goldman employee made $400k, and while I know the median is much lower, it's easy to see why the volatility is troubling.

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    13y

    Hi @Riley F.,

    Welcome to BiggerPockets!

    Glad to see you're looking into real estate outside of your local area market. New York and many of the coastal markets don't make financial sense. You mentioned "buy-and-hold", but what's not clear is if you're looking to find distressed properties to renovate from a distance, or something more "turn key" or rent-ready?

    Be sure to check out the Ultimate Beginners Guide as well as my 10 Rules of Successful Real Estate Investing.

    Continues success!

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Well if you aren't trying to wholesale, all of your marketing and website questions and such are irrelevant. You don't need to do any of that.

    What are you impressions of what it takes to by rentals?

  • Dev HornPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Arlington, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    I read this topic hoping that I'd learn more about marketing to multi-family (MF). I have not searched yet (my bad) but just wondering have you guys seen good conversations about MF here in BP? If so, point me there!

    BTW I know one of the top RE brokers in Brooklyn (who also licenses We Buy Houses® there =) - PM me if you'd like his contact info.

  • Brandon TurnerPro Member
    Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Hey @Riley F.! Welcome to the site!

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 136 posts · 76 votes
    13y

    @Marco Santarelli

    Thanks for the note. I haven't really decided, to be honest. I am fairly flexible, but trying to be honest about the realities of renovating at a distance.

    @Ali Boone

    Besides a down payment and patience? I jest, but I'm not sure I understand the question. I'm sure it doesn't take much to buy a rental property, but I'm sure buying a profitable one is another story altogether.

    @Brandon Turner

    Thanks.

    @Dev Horn

    Thanks. I may take you up on that at some point.

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Riley F.:

    "I'm sure it doesn't take much to buy a rental property, but I'm sure buying a profitable one is another story altogether."

    Actually, the purchase price is related to the local market, and the cash-flow potential will be a function of the rent-to-value ratio in that market. Therefore, you don't need to spend a lot on a property in order for it to be "profitable". You can purchase properties with cap rates of 10% or more starting at $50,000 in good markets. Premium areas will start at $80,000. These are not uncommon!

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Sorry, I was just confused because of your mentions/questions about marketing. For rentals, you wouldn't need to market anything or do much of any of what you originally asked about needing to do. So wasn't sure if you were wanting to do something other than just buy them.

  • Darren SagerPro Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    @Account Closed I was at the New York Real Estate Expo all day yesterday. Very interesting Expo. Amazing to hear all that's going on and perspective from many players in the space, both with landlords and condo developers.

    There's a ton of rental units (18,000+) that are coming onto the Brooklyn market over the next twelve months. They expect the market to absorb them however they feel the amount per foot in rentals will drop by about $10 from $65 to $55. After that it'll start to climb up again. What Brooklyn needs the most of right now is condos. Lots of them. There's actually a shortage for homeowners and they expect it to be that way over the next few years. So flips are the way to go there it seems for the short term. The high rise condos will take 3-5 years to get onto the market the way that the system works with approvals and build times.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    @Darren Sager I've also heard about the 18,000+ rentals in Brooklyn. That's almost all high rises. Aren't the developers mapping those out as condos anyways?

    That's how It's done in SF at least. When the market was bad the plan was to build/map as condos but rent the units out. Then when the market turns around (like now) they don't renew leases and sell units off.

    Can you shed any light on how this plays out in NYC? Thx.

  • Architect · Mount Vernon, NY · Member since 2013 · 54 posts · 17 votes
    13y

    @Riley F. I am a newbie to this site. I did a search for NYC and read your post. As @Darren Sager suggested, finding a good contractor/ handy man is critical for any buy-renovate-hold projects. I've had my shares of bad contractors in the city. We should get together sometimes. I'm only 30 min away from Grand Central.

  • Darren SagerPro Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    @Amit M. You pose a great question. Why can't they just go and turn those into condos? Well, it all has to do with how they've put together the financing and structure with the city according to those who spoke about it yesterday. I would assume that if you had large financial companies like TIAA CREF purchasing parts of huge apartment buildings in NYC to create cash flow for investors chances are they're doing the same in Brooklyn. So if they had the buy and hold strategy from the get go (like I prefer) then they're going to make a ton of money long term versus the quick turnaround sale. Some of the towers going up in Brooklyn are in prize locations. I'd want to hold onto those as well.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    @Darren Sager

    I'm actually surprised to hear that. Most big time developers focus on churning money in high end markets like NYC and SF, especially in a rising market. Especially given the high building costs, most towers don't pencil out as rentals. There are a few exceptions I see in my market, SF, but most were sold off during the last run up. The buy and hold folks usually have portfolios of existing bldgs.

    But this may be changing of recent. Rents have jumped big time in SF over the last three years, and interest rates are low. So maybe some towers do pencil out. I know today a few are being built as rentals (but condo mapped; almost an automatic thing here in CA). The question is if the units will be sold off or not. I also know the rentals are usually smaller spaces- they love 1br and studios as they get higher $ PSF. Optimal condos for sale are usually larger units with nicer amenities. So there is a bit of a clash WRT optimization.

    I have the same optimization issue in my much smaller properties in SF. I like to buy run down apartments, but be able to renovate them with enough amenities so in the future they can easily be sold as condos or TIC's (our equivalent of coops.) more in renovation costs on the front end (like putting in-unit washer/dryers) and nice decks, but at least I get the best tenant pool that way as well.

    In the past have there always been new towers built in nyc intended only as rentals? Or were most resale condos?

  • Landlord · NY · Member since 2013 · 23 posts · 5 votes
    13y

    @Darren - Rental market in NYC has plateau'd. We have seen concessions start to come in again (no-fee, one month free) for most of our units in NYC. The market typically goes through these cycles where rents can rise, plateau, and possibly fall.

    In NYC- there is a supply constraint in the market. The city's population growth outpaces housing supply (both for sales and rental). We would build rental ONLY if our land basis is low (in my case, we've had the land for over 15 years, so land cost was much lower). Construction costs are very high and even with our low land basis, we need the 421-a programs and tax incentives to think about building. Even after fully-stabilizing, we would have to wait a cycle to get our investment back. Hence this is why new supply is lacking: development costs vs returns just aren't there.

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