Getting started from Seattle, Washington (WA)!

Getting started from Seattle, Washington (WA)!

Real Estate Broker and Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 12 votes

Hi all! I’m a 24 year old aerospace engineer and flight instructor in the Seattle area.

I’m originally from Rhode Island, went to college at Purdue in Indiana, and have been working in Seattle full-time since 2012.

I recently made my first step into real estate by buying a condo in South Lake Union. During that process, I came across the BP community, and I’m eager to dive into learning more about real estate investing!

At this point, I’m primarily interested in buy and hold investing. It seems that most of the options for multi-family residences in and around Seattle are not affordable for me, so I’m trying to understand what my options are and if I should consider out-of-state or areas in WA far from Seattle (or in Oregon). Multi-family residences and vacation rental properties have piqued my interest the most so far.

At some point, I will want to rent my condo, but I would like to start buying properties in the meantime before I’m ready to move. (I’m kind of kicking myself now for not being aware of the “house hacking” concept touted on here.)

I would like to grow a portfolio and cash flow as fast as I can while holding down my full-time job. I’m working on a quantitative goal, but it seems hard to pin down exactly what will be possible until I start getting my feet wet and crunching the numbers.

Anyway, thanks for reading through! Like with flying, in real estate it sounds like there will be endless opportunities to keep learning. I look forward to meeting and talking with everyone, especially if you’re local or in a similar situation!

Regards,

Mike Catalfamo

2Reply
80 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Snohomish, WA · Member since 2014 · 115 posts · 68 votes
11y

Glad to help, Mike. That's what we're here for. :-)

If simplicity and cashflow are important to you, I'd be looking hard at smaller multi-families, subject to all the due diligence etc., of course. A big reason is that, comparing apples to apples, the cost per "dwelling unit" is usually significantly lower in a multi than an SFR. At the moment, with a relative regional shortage of multi housing and SFR prices that are going through the roof, the monthly rental difference between the two types may not be that great. In that case, the cheaper that you're into the game (per unit), the higher the profits.

And, even if the initial net profit is the same, it's better to have diversified profit streams than a single one. Stuff happens, especially to tenants.

An even more important reason to consider multi-family investing is that a lot more capital funding sources will open up than your personal credit will normally allow with at least your first few SFR's. When you get into commercial real estate that cashflows, the cashflow itself is the main "creditworthiness," not just you and your day job income. You'll need to learn how to put together a proper cashflow statement etc., but you'll find lots of that kind of education here.

Even better, find a seasoned mentor or investment partner with the right experience in the area you're interested in. A property manager who also owns their own inventory would be my choice, and most would probably be delighted to guide you through the acquisition process, if they scored the management contract at the end of the day. By that time, you'll have gotten to know each other, too, so there should be fewer surprises in the future. I would be concerned about a property manager who didn't have their own properties. 

Because commercial paper has different rules than bank paper, you may also find that the same amount of cash that you saved up for that SFR buy-and-hold may actually be enough to get you into a four-plex, which is a very convenient denomination.

Then again, lot of folks start out buying a four-plex with a bank loan like an SFR, which can be done if you live in one of the units and rent out the other three. If I recall correctly, four units is the maximum size before you're considered as full-commercial. But, if the three rental units cover the mortgage payment, you're living for free and what you normally would have paid for a place to live can be saved up for a down payment on the next cashflow property.

The BP Marketplace usually has plenty of private money looking for good places to go to work, although you need a Pro level membership to post there. If you put together the right deal and have some of your own skin in the game, finding financing for small professionally managed multi's shouldn't be impossible.

The easiest way to find out if you can put together a super deal is to TRY. Set a goal that's a little bigger of a bite than you're comfortable with and start driving toward the goal like Marshawn Lynch in BeastMode. (We do love our Seahawks!) You may fall flat on your face or the coach may inexplicably call for a pass on 2nd and goal, when the entire defense is bunched up into a solid wall on the goal line and the championship is on the line, but you're at least guaranteed to learn a lot in the process. The next time, you'll have a better idea what you're doing. We learn far more from our failures than our successes. The most important thing is not how many times that we get knocked down, but how many times that we get back up.

(Note to self, re the Superbowl: Get OVER it and learn how to live with it.) :-)

Regarding Greater Tacoma vs. Greater Everett, some people seem to be making money in Tacoma, but it's generally a pretty rough area for my tastes. Some things are more important to me than money. You might want to check out the Tacoma News Tribune site and search for stories on "Hilltop." There aren't many areas of Tacoma that aren't a 10 minute drive from Hilltop.

But, from a longer term REI standpoint, it doesn't seem to me that Tacoma is poised to explode - it's an older city and was built out to within an inch of its life long ago. Western Snohomish county and its collection of smaller cities is much younger and is tied as the fastest growing county in the state. It still has a lot of commercial land in closing pockets between urban areas that never did get developed, and at what seems to be some pretty fair prices compared to Seattle.

And, in terms of actively working to direct the strong population growth into urban growth areas, Snohomish county seems to be leading the pack of the Puget Sound counties. King county started much earlier, and they're still behind the little brother to the north. I've concluded that this where the fruit is hanging lowest and where it will ripen first. The other counties local will eventually follow suit and will offer their own unique opportunities, but what you learn here will prepare you for that tomorrow.

That's why I'm REI-ing here, at least.

See this reply in the discussion

26 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Welcome to BP Mike Catalfamo There are a lot of people from Washington state on here who I am sure will chime in. Be sure to check out the podcasts and the blogs. Good stuff.
  • Investor · Snohomish, WA · Member since 2013 · 629 posts · 84 votes
    11y

    Welcome Mike! I fly a super decathlon out of PAE - welcome to BP!

  • Brandon TurnerPro Member
    Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    Hey @Mike C. welcome, glad to have you on board! If you haven't yet, be sure to check out the The Ultimate Beginner's Guide to Real Estate Investing and The BiggerPockets Podcast. They are both great at learning the fundamentals.

    Also - here's a couple articles you might enjoy:

    The 21 Best Real Estate Investing Books Ever

    How to Rent Your House: The Definitive Step by Step Guide

    How to Be a Landlord: Ten Tips for Success

    Oh - and if you haven't yet- be sure to setup some "Keyword Alerts."

    Glad to have you here

  • Property Manager and Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2015 · 55 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    Welcome, @Mike C.! I'm a stone's throw from South Lake Union, love that young, vibrant neighborhood. Best wishes in your real estate pursuits, and hope to see you around!

  • Rental Property Investor · Everett, WA · Member since 2013 · 389 posts · 222 votes
    11y

    @Mike C. I was in your same shoes a few years back and my wife and I chose to invest locally. Since 2013 we have been purchasing buy & hold properties in Snohomish County. In my opinion, right now is a great time to invest in the Greater Seattle area.

    Send me a message if you'd like to chat some more about why we chose the strategy we did.

  • Hilary C.Pro Member
    Sr. Director of Customer Service · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2014 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    11y

    Welcome aboard! Happy to have you on BiggerPockets!

    If you have any questions, feel free to reach out!

    Best,

    Hilary

    BiggerPockets
  • Investor · Snohomish, WA · Member since 2014 · 115 posts · 68 votes
    11y

    Welcome, Mike! There's no other place quite like BP.

    Like Grant Fosheim and others, I see Snohomish county as having some of the lowest-hanging REI fruit around, especially for multi-family buy and hold. For starters, we have some of the lowest non-owner-occupied rates in the region: Under 50%, as opposed to the regional average of about 65%, and with nearby Seattle bursting at the seams, tenant demand is strong and should stay that way.

    Local prices for comparable built-out properties are about 1/3 of South Lake Union, so the investor ROI is usually going to be higher. Commercial land prices run about 5% of the Seattle urban core. Just the last two years have seen a 15% growth in local prices, so this margin is shrinking. Most of the western county, behind the view properties, is ripe for gentrification.

    With your youth (!) and long term planning, I'd especially be looking at properties inside multi-family and/or mixed use zones within 1/4 mile of Highway 99 along the 10 mile stretch between Everett and Edmonds. This is where most of the county's population growth is going to be channeled for at least the next generation, as a main part of the overall regional planning. If you're looking for SnoCo property management services, for sure have a chat with Grant; he offers management and knows where the A, B and C neighborhoods are to be found. Right now, some of the C's are pretty rough, but that will change as property values rise and price the current tenants out. 

    If I was a little younger, I'd be especially looking for marginal SFR, multi-family and occupied lower-end commercial sites in this zone that could be profitably held and rented now, then torn down and redeveloped sometime in the coming years. There's a major rezoning coming here, most likely beginning in 2015, that's going to be boosting development density to 260% of the current base permitting, going from 22 dwelling units per acre to 58 and raising height limits from 45' to 75'. This is going to become "Millennial City," with a fair percentage of retired Boomers for extra community flavor.

    Another opportunity arising from this rezoning may be found as a result of the new opening of most of the "commercial only" zonings for multi-family and mixed use projects here, with current market prices that don't necessarily reflect the near future. I'm not selling land here and haven't spent a lot of time crunching the numbers for what seems to be some undervalued commercial development sites. 

    You'll find a good overview of the coming rezone details at http://www.biggerpockets.com/files/user/ChrisNewma... This is a reposting of the official notice of the county council's public hearing on April 15, 2015 that is one of the last steps prior to final passage. Final passage, after decades of planning, will be the waving of the green flag that starts this new land rush and I started preparing for it five years ago. 

    My own niche is buying/selling/brokering the "TDR credits" that are mentioned in the above document (Section 7). The new density bonuses will not be free for the developers, but must be purchased by "cashing in" these credits; one credit for every "one more" dwelling unit up to the new limit. But, the net result of using them can result in an average "per-lot" cost savings that approaches 30%. These are essentially like land that does not yet have a location. My current inventory is 304 credits.

    In any event, there's clearly a ton of growth potential right next door to Seattle, to the north. My two cents worth, at least.

    Again, welcome to Bigger Pockets!

  • Investor/RE Broker · Eugene, OR · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 968 votes
    11y

    @Mike C.

    Hi and welcome to BP! I am formerly of Seattle, where I lived for over 20 years, and now live in Oregon. I can tell you that all my REI is out of state, mid-west, southeast, and certain pockets in NE are where I have found the best opportunities for cash-flowing buy and hold properties.

  • Musician & Real Estate Investor · Edmonds, WA · Member since 2014 · 43 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    Hey @Mike C., I'm a buy-and-hold investor living in Lynnwood, WA, and focused on buying multifamily in Snohomish County.  I agree with the other posters who have said the Seattle area is a great place to purchase rentals.

    Go get 'em!

  • Real Estate Investor · Denver, Tucson, Seattle, Colorado, Arizona, Washington · Member since 2014 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    11y

    Welcome Mike! I am also an Aerospace Engineer by training and have been investing in the greater Seattle area with my Brother for almost 3 years. We have enjoyed Snohomish County thus far. Way to get started at such a young age!

  • Specialist · Rockland, MA · Member since 2010 · 7k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    @Mike C.

    Welcome. 

    Locate and attend 3 different local REIA club meetings great place to meet people gather resources and info. Here you will meet wholesalers who provide deals and rehabbers (cash buyers).

    Two Great reads, I bought both J. Scott The Book on Flipping Houses, The Book on Estimating ReHab Costs http://www.biggerpockets.com/flippingbook

    Download BP’s newest book here some good due diligence in Chapter 10. Real Estate Rewind Starting over

    http://www.biggerpockets.com/files/user/brandonatbp/file/real-estate-rewind-a-biggerpockets-community-book

    Good Luck

    Paul

  • Real Estate Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    Welcome to BP Mike! Tons of good information on here.  Puget Sound housing market is En Fuego!  There are still deals to be had out there in Seattle but like others stated, the SnoCo and Pierce Co areas seem to have much better cash-flowing deals.   

  • Dave VisayaPro Member
    Moderator
    Audio Engineer and Investor · Cebu City, Cebu · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 881 votes
    11y

    Hey @Mike C. welcome to the site! Its great to have you!

    BiggerPockets
  • Real Estate Broker and Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    Hi everyone, thanks so much for the kind and informative welcome!  

    It sounds like Snohomish County is really the primary area for me to start looking into.  Does anyone have thoughts on how the area compares to the Tacoma area?  One obvious difference would seem to be the lack of Boeing jobs, but I'm wondering if there may be any reasons to consider Tacoma as another area to investigate.  During some searching a few weeks ago, I had found some multi-family properties that seemed more affordable near the McChord AFB, whereas I'm not seeing as much of that up near Everett.

    @Chris Newman - thanks for your welcome and for the information! There do seem to be attractive opportunities up north and I will definitely further look into those zoning changes which you describe. You mention how Snohomish County is especially good for multi-family buy-and-hold. One of the things I'm trying to understand is whether it makes sense to start with a SFR or built up more savings to be able to start with multi-family.

    @Larry Fried - thanks!  So you found that the benefits of additional cash flow out-of-state exceeded the logistical issues and property management costs?  Would you recommend that a new investor start locally most of the time?  That's the sense that I get from listening to many of the podcasts.

    @Jeremy Jones - thanks for introducing yourself!  I see in your profile that you're interested in creative financing strategies - it might be interesting to talk sometime about any that you've used locally.

    @Zach Schwarzmiller - that's cool that you also fly out of PAE!  I've done most of my instructing out of there through BEFA, but also fly from RNT.  I've never flown a Super Decathlon before, but it sure sounds like fun.

    @Nicholas Jones - thanks for saying hi!  Were you employed in aerospace but left to invest in real estate?

    @Loren Buchanan - thanks!  I hadn't been considering Piece County.  Are the kinds of opportunities similar in Piece vs. Snohomish counties?

    Mike

  • Investor · Marysville, WA · Member since 2014 · 146 posts · 62 votes
    11y

    Welcome to BP and the Puget Sound area @Mike C. from up north in Marysville!

    I'm also focused on Snohomish County because I'm very familiar with the area.  There is a TON of activity in Pierce County (Tacoma area) and lots of deals to be had.  

    Lots of good advice in the welcome posts here.  To add to @Paul Timmins' advice, check these out:

    http://reapsweb.com/

    http://reiawa.com/ClubPortal/ClubStatic.cfm?clubID...

    http://www.meetup.com/SnoCo-Connected-Real-Estate-...

  • Investor · Snohomish, WA · Member since 2014 · 115 posts · 68 votes
    11y

    Glad to help, Mike. That's what we're here for. :-)

    If simplicity and cashflow are important to you, I'd be looking hard at smaller multi-families, subject to all the due diligence etc., of course. A big reason is that, comparing apples to apples, the cost per "dwelling unit" is usually significantly lower in a multi than an SFR. At the moment, with a relative regional shortage of multi housing and SFR prices that are going through the roof, the monthly rental difference between the two types may not be that great. In that case, the cheaper that you're into the game (per unit), the higher the profits.

    And, even if the initial net profit is the same, it's better to have diversified profit streams than a single one. Stuff happens, especially to tenants.

    An even more important reason to consider multi-family investing is that a lot more capital funding sources will open up than your personal credit will normally allow with at least your first few SFR's. When you get into commercial real estate that cashflows, the cashflow itself is the main "creditworthiness," not just you and your day job income. You'll need to learn how to put together a proper cashflow statement etc., but you'll find lots of that kind of education here.

    Even better, find a seasoned mentor or investment partner with the right experience in the area you're interested in. A property manager who also owns their own inventory would be my choice, and most would probably be delighted to guide you through the acquisition process, if they scored the management contract at the end of the day. By that time, you'll have gotten to know each other, too, so there should be fewer surprises in the future. I would be concerned about a property manager who didn't have their own properties. 

    Because commercial paper has different rules than bank paper, you may also find that the same amount of cash that you saved up for that SFR buy-and-hold may actually be enough to get you into a four-plex, which is a very convenient denomination.

    Then again, lot of folks start out buying a four-plex with a bank loan like an SFR, which can be done if you live in one of the units and rent out the other three. If I recall correctly, four units is the maximum size before you're considered as full-commercial. But, if the three rental units cover the mortgage payment, you're living for free and what you normally would have paid for a place to live can be saved up for a down payment on the next cashflow property.

    The BP Marketplace usually has plenty of private money looking for good places to go to work, although you need a Pro level membership to post there. If you put together the right deal and have some of your own skin in the game, finding financing for small professionally managed multi's shouldn't be impossible.

    The easiest way to find out if you can put together a super deal is to TRY. Set a goal that's a little bigger of a bite than you're comfortable with and start driving toward the goal like Marshawn Lynch in BeastMode. (We do love our Seahawks!) You may fall flat on your face or the coach may inexplicably call for a pass on 2nd and goal, when the entire defense is bunched up into a solid wall on the goal line and the championship is on the line, but you're at least guaranteed to learn a lot in the process. The next time, you'll have a better idea what you're doing. We learn far more from our failures than our successes. The most important thing is not how many times that we get knocked down, but how many times that we get back up.

    (Note to self, re the Superbowl: Get OVER it and learn how to live with it.) :-)

    Regarding Greater Tacoma vs. Greater Everett, some people seem to be making money in Tacoma, but it's generally a pretty rough area for my tastes. Some things are more important to me than money. You might want to check out the Tacoma News Tribune site and search for stories on "Hilltop." There aren't many areas of Tacoma that aren't a 10 minute drive from Hilltop.

    But, from a longer term REI standpoint, it doesn't seem to me that Tacoma is poised to explode - it's an older city and was built out to within an inch of its life long ago. Western Snohomish county and its collection of smaller cities is much younger and is tied as the fastest growing county in the state. It still has a lot of commercial land in closing pockets between urban areas that never did get developed, and at what seems to be some pretty fair prices compared to Seattle.

    And, in terms of actively working to direct the strong population growth into urban growth areas, Snohomish county seems to be leading the pack of the Puget Sound counties. King county started much earlier, and they're still behind the little brother to the north. I've concluded that this where the fruit is hanging lowest and where it will ripen first. The other counties local will eventually follow suit and will offer their own unique opportunities, but what you learn here will prepare you for that tomorrow.

    That's why I'm REI-ing here, at least.

  • Investor · Snohomish, WA · Member since 2013 · 629 posts · 84 votes
    11y

    In regards to Tacoma area, unlike Core Seattle, Eastside and Snohomish, the Southend submarket which has a lack of new construction or proposed apartment projects.

  • Investor · Snohomish, WA · Member since 2013 · 629 posts · 84 votes
    11y

    Can I edit a post so I am not writing two? Couldn't figure it out. 

    This being said vacancy rates should remain low. As of June 2014 survey of 9,798 units, 468 were vacant (or 4.8%) - In Tacoma 

  • Investor/RE Broker · Eugene, OR · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 968 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Mike C.:

    @Larry Fried - thanks!  So you found that the benefits of additional cash flow out-of-state exceeded the logistical issues and property management costs?  Would you recommend that a new investor start locally most of the time?  That's the sense that I get from listening to many of the podcasts.

    Hi Mike, 
    I don't recommend or discourage first time investors invest locally. It depends on a lot of factors including price, time and interest barriers, property availability etc. If you are more a DIY kind of investor, then by all means go local if you can. For myself, I was looking locally for years, and never found anything I felt comfortable jumping in on, plus I didn't really want to be a landlord. So, I finally jumped in with an out of state TK company and have continued on that path thus far. Yes the cash flow does work out well with at least 10%-12% ROI cash on cash, even allowing for vacancy and maintenance projections. That does not include any of the tax breaks and other benefits. I am not chasing appreciation, that is a bonus. With excellent property management, the investments are quite passive.

  • Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Mike C.:

    I would like to grow a portfolio and cash flow as fast as I can while holding down my full-time job. I’m working on a quantitative goal, but it seems hard to pin down exactly what will be possible until I start getting my feet wet and crunching the numbers.

    Regards,

    Mike Catalfamo

    Start with a big end goal, or what may feel big: like $150k/yr cashflow in 8 years.  Then start working backwords assuming some sort of end of the line quick escalation. It'll help you take a long view.  

    Or start the other way and make it a simple goal: Buy a Cashflowing property in the next 12-18 months.  Depends on whether you are a big picture guy, or a small detail oriented guy. 

  • Michele FischerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Mike, welcome to BiggerPockets!  I started married life in a crappy apartment on Eastlake Ave E, now I wish I owned that complex, that Lake Union area has changed so much!

    I'd suggest you figure out how far you are willing to travel and draw a circle in all directions and start exploring.  Fort Lewis, Grand Mound, etc.  Figure out what criteria is most important to you and visit and research areas.  I like the idea of being able to get to properties quickly, even if PNW returns are lower than other areas of the US.

  • Real Estate Investor · Denver, Tucson, Seattle, Colorado, Arizona, Washington · Member since 2014 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    11y

    @Mike C.

     Hey Mike, sorry for the delayed response. I have been working in Aerospace for 10 years. (straight out of college) Although I have owned a personal residence and renting out rooms since college, I only started investing aggressively ~3 years ago. I have not left my full time job, but I am to a point with monthly cash flow that would allow for that move, if I so choose it.  Best of luck and let me know if you want to discuss any techniques I used to lengthen the leash at work :-)

  • Real Estate Broker · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 427 votes
    11y

    Hi Mike. Welcome to BP.  I am a Seattle-based investor. My background is in engineering myself.  Primarily, I have been working on fix-and-flip.

    I agree with other people who posted.  For an optimal mix of appreciation and cash flow, I would suggest investing in Snohomish County, up to about Everett.

    When Seattle/Eastside does well (like right now, with tech), most of King County and South Snohomish County will benefit.

    When Boeing does well, most of Snohomish County will benefit.

    Prices have gone up substantially in Snohomish County, so another good region is South King.  As Seattle, Eastside, and eventually Snohomish County become more expensive, people will head both directions (north and south).

    However, Tacoma seems to be shrinking.  Russell Investments moved to Seattle and now Weyerhauser.  Military is not as busy as before.  South King still benefits from Seattle's growth but Pierce County doesn't benefit as much as it's a bit farther away from Seattle and the Eastside.

    Pierce and Thurston counties generally have high cap rates, so those are great cash flow plays if you don't care too much about appreciation.   For me, I look at those parts of WA as flip territory as appreciation is not high there.  

    Would love to hear everybody's thoughts as well!

  • Investor · Bremerton, WA · Member since 2013 · 45 posts · 16 votes
    11y

    I'm looking for buy and holds in Pierce County. @Adrian Chu Let me know if you have you deal you need to wholesale. I also wholesale deals myself, if anyone is interested. I work Pierce and Kitsap counties.

  • Solo 401k Expert · Anaheim Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 18k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y

    Welcome to BP @Mike C.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.