Frustrated with Bigger Pocket Posts

Frustrated with Bigger Pocket Posts

Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes

Hello, I'm a newbie and this is my first post on Bigger Pockets although I have lurked here for several years. While I have been able to find invaluable information on this site, I find many of the posts (especially in the newsletters) to be frustrating because they sound a bit like internet marketing/motivational speak with little realistic or actionable advice although they are supposedly targeted towards young professionals. They tend to underestimate costs/skills needed/and timelines that many people have.

For example, my husband and I are a young professional couple in our mid-twenties. Many of the articles directed at our age group fail to address the following:

- many young people out of college do not have high incomes (median net compensation for individuals in 2013 is about $28k per year) http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html; http://time.com/money/3829776/heres-what-the-avera...

- record high student loan debt (average amount of debt for individuals is $26,500 for 2011 graduates) http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/education/report...

- most people are married and/or have children by age 30 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/marriage-... http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db19.htm; http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/births.htm; http://www.infoplease.com/spot/momcensus1.html)

- The median American household owes $3,300 of consumer debt (http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/av...)

- if you do have a professional job you will probably have to purchase a professional wardrobe (in our case we needed new clothes that were appropriate for cold winters)

- you will probably have to move to where jobs/graduate programs are (moving costs plus potential increase in the COL; see note on buying winter wardrobe)

- increasing rents (http://www.deptofnumbers.com/rent/us/)

-record high prices for cars (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/09/0...) average price is $31k for new car and slightly used cars are only a few thousand dollars less); most households in the US need at least one car and if you were lucky enough to have one in high school it is probably starting to get old and have expensive maintenance issues by the time you are a young professional.

-record number of people in graduate school (http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/education/data/...) poverty level pay and long hours that discourage people from working a second job during this time

- housing is expensive (down payment plus transaction costs- why do so many posts fail to go into detail about these? My husband and I wanted to purchase the condo we are renting- at a modest price- but the transaction costs doubled the cost of purchasing and we would have only saved $180 per month over the cost of renting. We decided it was better to pay down debt and move to a better location in a couple of years.)

- house hacking; there are not likely very many multi-family units in many towns and if there are they are probably expensive and in undesirable/dangerous parts of town

I am not trying to discredit the usefulness of this site or of investing in real estate. But many of the posts I have read come down to: either the OP majored in a related field in college and worked with other professionals shortly thereafter, had a much higher than average income starting out of college, or had their parents pay for college/weddings/ first mortgages, or the OP is not really young and is already a professional who is looking back at what they wish they did when they were younger (when they had no networks or money).

I think more accurate advice for 20 somethings would be:

- work on increasing your knowledge and income (try to find and fill your skill deficits so that you can be useful to others in the industry and make money; here is something that might be useful: http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/negotiation...)

- work on your people and organizational skills

- get your personal finances in shape

- set a realistic time frame for investing (it might take several years to be ready)

- work on getting your SO on board

- build a network of colleagues that you can call on later

- don't buy stupid motivational business books to learn, buy books that focus on specific skills and that have case studies

OR

- have access to specialized knowledge. a large amount of capital, and a professional network, already

- have access to people with those things

Many people go through seismic changes in their lives during their twenties that are not accounted for in these posts. The over simplistic messages I think overshadow the usefulness of the posts. Young professionals don

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Josh C.Pro Member
Property Manager · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y
You quoted lots of averages. The average person does not make good financial decisions. Credit card debt and buying crap they can't afford are the top of the list. Your bit about new cars is ridiculous. I've always paid cash for cars and when I didn't have very much cash I didn't have very much car. When they broke down I got on YouTube and learned to get them running. I'm in my 20's still with a only bachelor degree and have managed to purchase plenty of real estate. My income is probably a little higher than the average but not by lots. On the other hand my wife doesn't work and I have three children so I'm pretty sure that negates my income. You just have to want it. You'll never run out of reasons why not to do something and statics are good at saying why things won't ever pan out. You simply need to stop being lazy and dumb. Sorry to be harsh, but it is really that simple. Cut your lifestyle you think you are entitled to and get a second job and save money like crazy. I moved my family out of a nice 5 bedroom house in the burbs to a big renovation project duplex in the city because I wanted to aggressively grow my portfolio. It takes a long time. Our clothes and cars weren't as nice as our friends, but hopefully our decisions will pay off. Yours can to if you commit to them.
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  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Aaron Mazzrillo

    My husband and I are highly motivated. We just need more time/strategies to overcome a few obstacles and then we plan on investing heavily in real estate. These are things that I wish were mentioned more often in BP posts. Thank you for your comment and the resource suggestion. I will look it up!

  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Rick H.

    Really great points. Thank you for your post!

  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Sakeena Rashid

    We keep having problems with one car so we may need to purchase one in the near future. We won't spend $30k on a new car. 

    Thank you for these resources! The tip about thrift stores is great. Obviously clothing was a small pain point for us, and we could have saved some money there. I live in a very small town so will have to do some digging for a good shop- but it is great tip! I will also look up that movie! We do have a lot of things in our favor and we are making good progress towards our goals. I just wish people would talk about how sometimes progress can take a bit more time than what is discussed in some of the motivational posts on this site. 

  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Joe Moore

    These are great tips! We are working on increasing our credit limits and our credit scores have gone up during that process. It just takes time and we stopped for a bit when we thought we would be applying for a mortgage. 

  • Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2012 · 79 posts · 19 votes
    11y
    No offense but all of that sounds like excuses. You need capital? Wholesale, find hard money, find private money. Instead of getting a loan for a house or car, get one for an investment. There are waaaaay too many resources available.......
  • Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 22 votes
    11y

    @Katie Douglas

    Keeping in mind that I am *NOT* a financial advisor/expert/anything else and none of what I say should be construed as anything beyond random dude on the internet advice (i.e don't sue me please :)) ...

    More education = more debt: good idea?

    This is always a tough one, IMO. 

    From a 100% business POV, I'd say look at the ROI:

    - How much will your income increase with additional education?

    - If you pay 50K for more education (say, 25K tuition, and 25K opportunity cost of lost income), how long will it take to recoup that 50K?

    Some degrees/education might totally be worth it; others, totally not. 

    Now of course there's another aspect to this - it's not always a business decision; there's other aspects around personal growth / self improvement, and so on that only you can assign a "value" to of how much it's worth to you.

    But a good start would be trying to breakdown some of the numbers, and then see what it looks like on paper.

    Stay home VS work:

    Another tough one, IMO.

    I think folks often discount the value of a spouse (be it husband or wife) that stays at home to look after the house / kids / whatever.

    To me it's a simple scenario of - if you were working full time, take your positive income, and then subtract from it how much it'd cost to hire other people to do what you no longer have time to do (cleaning, chores, finances, etc.)

    If the number makes sense (i.e you can make 100K but you would spend only 20K) - win! Probably worth going to work. If not, then no.

    But like school there's another aspect here that has to be considered: That of your own life, personal enrichment, whether you want to be more involved with kids (that you plan on having soon) or not, etc.

    These are incredibly personal decisions that everyone will value differently - so only you can put numbers against those and see what you think. For some folks (for example) - the ability to stay home and care for children is worth 100 million $; for another, that might only be 10K! So totally dependent on you!

    Retail employment:

    Not sure I follow the bit about employers not liking a MA? (we're talking about a masters of arts right?) 

    If retail is proving tough to break into, what about the so-called "task economy"; seems tailor fit to folks who want to work part time, earn some extra income, but have flexibility around their own hours and so on (e.g. Uber, Amazon home services, task rabbit, etc.) - it's huge here in the Bay; even if those apps aren't out that way, there's always Craigslist to post on as a willing participant for odd jobs here and there? Depends whether that fits your lifestyle/wants/needs I guess!

    The other possibility (given the strong passion for real estate) would be to try and focus in on that; can you get involved with a real estate brokerage, or property management company somehow? Even if its just starting as an assistant/receptionist, someone who tags along to help with staging/pictures, or what not else?  (Maybe other posters on BP who have had some success with this could chime in as to feasibility?)

    How much money should you spend to make money if you are also focusing on debt reduction? 

    Great question. The conventional wisdom always says prioritize your debt. This said numerous great companies wouldn't have gotten started if founders had followed conventional wisdom :)

    Personal choice IMO. It's high risk, but maybe high reward if you're going to spend money to make money in your own business.

    I'd say if you have some very high interest stuff (like credit card debt), kill it as fast as you can; that's throwing money away that's not even tax deductible.

    Otherwise, maybe consider 50/50 - if you have an extra 1K /month, put 500 towards debt repayment and use the other 500 to play around with the business side? Ebooks and the like seem like a low investment threshold overall, so maybe worth giving it a try if your existing ones are making money (at least enough to recoup the cost of your creative investment?) if nothing else you learn a bit more each go around about what works/doesn't. Just don't play with the rent money :) 

    Phew, loads of rambling, will stop now, but hope this at least gives you some encouragement to think positive and keep pushing through your challenges!

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Katie Douglas:

    @Roy N.

     Overall people are getting married less and having fewer children. But most people still do and those who do are more likely to have a college degree. 

     That sounds opposite of the trend in here where increased education correlates with later marriage rates, later families and fewer children.

  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Brittaney Woods

    Maybe so. I wrote this in a moment of frustration and maybe I just need to toughen up and hustle more. But I am still in the skill building phase and my point is that when I have looked to BP for resources, sometimes the advice given oversimplifies the amount of time/money/skills are needed to get started. All of those things are important to note and posters  should note what assistance they had. I will continue to read BP to help shore up my skills so that I can start investing when my family is ready to get started. 

  • Registered Nurse (ICU) · San Jose, CA · Member since 2014 · 496 posts · 332 votes
    11y

    @Katie Douglas  seems to me that you just haven't found the right people and posts to read that can help you.  When thisnisnthe case you should right your own posts and put your questions out there.  They will get answered almost immediately.  BP has everything you need but you need to be active in it as well to get what you are looking for.  By making your own posts you will network with others in your same situation and exchanged ideas and experiences.  

  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed

    Great tips! Thanks!

  • Visalia-Fresno, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 863 votes
    11y
    Average people are generally pay check to check with few assets and take the weekends off. That sounds boring. I never wanted to be average. Frank
  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Franklin Romine

    Great point! So what did you do instead?

  • Visalia-Fresno, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 863 votes
    11y

    @Katie Douglas

    Went to college, got a job, studied people, information and what the difference is between good debt and bad debt. 

    I realized and embraced the fact that the majority of the population trades time for $.  I woke up with both guns blazing when I understood how and why the wealthy create more time, manufacture time and work on the operation producing them multiple flows of passive income. 

    I took these ideas and leveraged my w2 to accumulate enough good debt and properties to get out of the rat race at age 31.

    Frank

  • Rental Property Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 278 posts · 156 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Katie Douglas:

    @M Marie Maxwell ....[snip]

    Our biggest expenses are debt repayment and rent. Rent is a third of our take home pay and a mortgage on this place would only be about $180 a month cheaper. I know it would help to reduce it, but we plan on moving in a couple of years. Our original plan was to buy it now and keep it as a rental property later but we worried it would mess up our debt to income ratio if we moved later. Also, we decided instead of paying for the down payment and transaction costs, that it would make more sense to pay off debt first. We thought it would put us in a better position to invest later. This condo is the equivalent to the cheaper houses around the area, but the property taxes on the houses are pretty high. 

    One major improvement would be if I worked full time. Right now I am an adjunct faculty instructor (I recently left a fully paid PhD program with my MA after my adviser left). I would either need to go back to school or otherwise acquire additional skills, and we would probably need to move again in order for me to find a full time position. We live in a very rural area (We spend little on entertainment because of this. For us the expenses are Hulu/Netflix/Amazon Prime streaming and occasional trips to the city/suburbs on the weekends- we live in the cornfields). But again here it comes down to personal finances - do we take on debt to increase our income- or do we continue to pay down debt and focus aggressively on investing in the future at a time when we are likely to have kids later? I would like to have several properties before we have children. This is a personal finance decision and would require some strategic decisions. My husband has a great career trajectory here and it helps for me to stay home when he works more than 10 hours a day and most Saturdays. I take care of all chores/cooking/errands/ and research for increasing our income. 

    {snip} Some of the debt we have accrued has been in the pursuit of activities that have the potential to generate additional income.  But again- do you spend a little money to generate an income/build skills or should you just focus on overall debt reduction? Either way we have decided not to spend money on real estate at this time.

     A condo comes with it's own set of headaches and expenses, and in the long run might not be any cheaper.

    You say you live in a rural area. Why do people live there? If you were to try to flip or rent who would your buyers or renters be? You mention that you've had trouble finding extra work. Are there jobs in that area? It just seems that where you are geographically and personally, REI may not really work for you right now and maybe that's why it's frustrating. It maybe a different story if you were in a growing market or quaint small college town.

    I'd say focus on a) debt reduction and b) saving. Only spend money to make extra money if you already have a skill in that area. In other words, don't spend money to sell things if you don't have a real talent to sell things. Also don't spend money on finishing your degree if you plan to leave the field or if you and your husband won't/can't move where the jobs are that make the degree worthwhile. 

    You may make money when you add value to things that people are willing to pay for, so  invest in things where you add value.

  • Seattle, WA · Member since 2015 · 500 posts · 243 votes
    11y

    I am single, so a lot of the issues related to dual incomes, marriage (although my family has a long history of parents paying for children's marriages).

    In terms of saving though, I live with my parents and share their car. I fill up the gas tank and make minimal use of it, I take public transportation whenever possible. I negotiated for my company to pay for my phone and plan, as well as my bus card. My only monthly expenses are my healthcare plan (also subsidized by my company) and a gym membership.

    I spent several years learning the basics of the stock market, I'm now ready for a broad change of pace and plan to use my lack of a monthly mortgage or rent to invest in my first property.

    All in all, I have built a plan to have financial freedom before I am 40, with the freedom to work or not work as I choose.

  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @M Marie M.

    Great advice! We live here because I got a full ride to a PhD program about an hour away but left with my MA. My husband followed me here when I was accepted and this is where he found a job. He actually has a very good and stable job with a good upward trajectory. We make more than the average household and live in a relatively low COL. I think you are right and we will just wait for a couple more years, pay down our expenses, save up,  build up our knowledge, and then move. Technically he can't be licensed in his field until he has a couple more years of experience and passes a licensing exam, but after that there will be more job opportunities in other locations where we will be able to invest. 

  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Franklin Romine

     Sounds like you had great insight and a great plan to meet your goals!

  • Morris, IL · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    @Alex Chin

    Thank you for sharing your story and congratulations on your financial freedom! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 278 posts · 156 votes
    11y

    @Katie Douglas I'm going to recommend Stanley's "Millionaire Woman Next Door" if you have Amazon Prime you should be able to read it for free by borrowing it from the Kindle Library, that's how I got my hands on it.

  • Investor · Cedar Hill, TX · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 17 votes
    11y

    Hi Katie,

    May I give you some insight to my humble beginnings.  I am an ex-social worker who was earning $24,000.00 annual salary straight out of college in 2000.  Now, I own multiple rental properties, have rehabbed and sold 65 houses and have wholesaled over 500 properties over 15 years time.  How did I do it?  I started attending local Real Estate Investing Groups after work at least 4 per month or as many as possible.  Check out www.meetup.com and search for groups near you.  I highly recommend that you go to all of them as often as possible.  I borrowed money from banks, hard money lenders and other people to get started.  You can too.  Be smart about what you borrow and being able to pay it back.  But you can do this.  If I can, you can.  Learn everything you can and find a mentor.  Offer to work for no pay in exchange for doing work for him/her.  Do this on nights and weekends when you are off.  BP is simpy a social network.  You need to learn from the local investors who have done it.  Now go do it!!!  Best of luck.

  • Investor · Cedar Hill, TX · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 17 votes
    11y

    I meant so say find a mentor who is willing to teach you in exchange for you working for no pay.  The pay is the education you will gain from them.  Ask lots of questions.  Don't worry about asking too many.  They will let you know when to stop.  If one doesn't work out, move on to the next.

  • Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 22 votes
    11y

    @Stacie Meeker

    Love this story, amazing work and well done!

  • Investor · Walden, NY · Member since 2015 · 49 posts · 43 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joel Owens:

    I am going to stay away from politics.

    All I will say is that the system is set up to FAIL people. You are never going to get anywhere going to college to make 30k a year and incurring 60k of federal college debt that can't be removed in bankruptcy.

    You get a house, have a family, need a car to drive around, paying student loans. Then your income barely keeps up with inflation and you have to cut to the bone to save anything.

    As soon as the car is paid off it breaks down and you get a new one again. It's a continual process for many to stay poor the rest of their lives and depend on the government to take care of them with social security and Medicare in the golden years.

    Not everyone is a superstar and that's okay.

    The reality is making 100 a month per door on an investment isn't going to make you rich. If you build up over 30 years and say had 1 million that 1 million might be worth 600k by then. I don't know about everyone else but I want to enjoy today within reason and not be miserable saving money because tomorrow is not promised to anyone.

    Equity growth is where you make your money with properties. Cash flow is just the cherry on top.

    Example take 10 properties you buy at the right time in the market. You get 100 per door net monthly after all expenses. So off of 10 properties you get 1,000 a month or 12,000 a year times 5 years is 60,000 ( I am leaving out rental increases etc.).

    In that same time the properties you bought for 50k are now worth 90k in the market. You now have 400,000 in equity growth from the properties in 5 years versus 60,000 of cash flow. 

    It's a balance between enjoying today yet planning for the needs of the future.

     This is gold!

  • Investor · Fleming Island, FL · Member since 2015 · 34 posts · 8 votes
    11y

    I would recommend reading Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover book in regards to personal finances. He lays out a simple (not easy) plan for getting out of debt and having financial freedom. He goes against the status quo when it comes to finances. Most people in America are broke. You don't have to be one of them. Good luck to you! 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    my suggestion.   

    Go kill a house.   House buying for the 20 something is so much easier than the first time purchase for a 30-40-50 something.  

    Age has a way of creating fear and at twenty something where's the fear.   

    And not knowing the obstacles tends, for the driven, to be a blessing and not a curse. 

    Every successful person on this board who bought a few hundred houses and created massive wealth over 10 years ago certainly didn't have BP to thank so it's absolutely possible.  

    The problem with hype is that it clouds realistic drive and determination.  

    Go buy a house 

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