Where have all the LEADERS gone?

Where have all the LEADERS gone?

Real Estate Investor · Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2009 · 267 posts · 73 votes

It seems in this day and age, I constantly find myself looking to men of the past for guidance and advice: Warren Buffet, Abraham Lincoln, Dale Carnegie, Earl Nightingale, Thomas Jefferson, just to name a few. I do not have a particular bias toward leaders of the past. I just cannot look up to any of the leaders we have today, they seem to have lost the touch, of which men of the past once had. They used to communicate with such conviction, people believed them, and likewise, the leaders enforced belief in the people. Lee Iacoca truly hit it on the head with his recent book highlighting today's lack of leadership. The true leaders of the past were the epitome of what the world's image is of a humble American. But this image has become so distorted over the years, it seems America's leaders are a thing of the past, extinct like the dinosaurs.

So, my question to you is this: Why has the quality of American leadership deteriorated so rapidly over the past 50 years?

(Only thoughtful answers welcome, no one liners please)

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Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
17y

America's strength is in its rejuvenation, in its new blood. The US is very similar to Australia but unlike Australia, those who came here were driven to make their life better whether it was religiously or economically. Over America's short history, the country produced some great leaders and some really bad and mediocre ones. Some very smart ones and some down right stupid ones. We owe our success to our passion and strive to succeeds although at times, it can be our Achilles' heel. Pointing out "How great we are" will never make us better. Citing our shortcoming and looking for ways to improve on, will ensure our status as the leading nation.

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  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    I think you're wrong. It hasn't deteriorated. In the past 50 years the US has emerged as the best nation in the world and has maintained that position despite being one of the youngest countries in the world. We even can heavily disagree amongst ourselves while collectively working as a system. Anyone who would dispute my claim that the United States is the best nation in the world is free to tell me who is stronger, more prosperous, and a better place to live and express your individuality with greater opportunities for your own enrichment from your own individuality. They can also tell me what country is experiencing the problems of illegal US immigrants entering their borders.

    The leader in this country is the individual. Every individual has every right to their individual leader. The individual is the core reason why this country works. Personally one of my leaders is Sam Zell.

    By the way - call Warren Buffett's office and ask him if he's a man of the past. Last I saw he was alive.

  • Real Estate Investor · Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2009 · 267 posts · 73 votes
    17y

    Tim,

    Thank you for your strongly opinionated response about our nation's superiority. I couldn't agree with you any more. But your answer was not concerned with our country's lack of true leaders. Rather, you seemed to have defended the U.S. as if I were talking it down when in fact I was not. I did not ask for a debate, I asked for an answer to a plainly stated question.

    So here it is again: Why has the quality of American leadership deteriorated so rapidly over the past 50 years?

    Warren Buffet is still alive, but his ideals and leadership attributes are reminiscent of another time (the past century).

    For Tim and anyone else who comments on this thread, please humble your response and answer a well asked question.

    Again, this is not a debate.

  • Real Estate Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2008 · 456 posts · 42 votes
    17y

    I honestly think it comes down to values. When our country was first started, it held to those that were stated in our Constitution. As we have drifted away from that, the value system in this country has deteriorated. We are no longer a moral society based on honesty and integrity. It is common knowledge that politicians are liars and heads of corporations are criminals but worse,than that, it has become acceptable behavior along with many others that in the past would have been shunned.

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y

    America's strength is in its rejuvenation, in its new blood. The US is very similar to Australia but unlike Australia, those who came here were driven to make their life better whether it was religiously or economically. Over America's short history, the country produced some great leaders and some really bad and mediocre ones. Some very smart ones and some down right stupid ones. We owe our success to our passion and strive to succeeds although at times, it can be our Achilles' heel. Pointing out "How great we are" will never make us better. Citing our shortcoming and looking for ways to improve on, will ensure our status as the leading nation.

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Joey Budka:
    So here it is again: Why has the quality of American leadership deteriorated so rapidly over the past 50 years?.....For Tim and anyone else who comments on this thread, please humble your response and answer a well asked question.


    Joey. I reject your premise. Perhaps you should humble yourself and realize that when you have a flawed premise - it may be that you're not seeking an answer but affirmation of what you already believe. Stop being so fatalistic. If I'm opinionated towards a positive outlook....what's wrong with that?


    Originally posted by Joey Budka:
    Warren Buffet is still alive, but his ideals and leadership attributes are reminiscent of another time (the past century).


    Tell that to Goldman Sachs. I'm not a Buffet fan. I know why he marketed Obama out there during the campaign, why he bought 5 billion dollars of preferred stock in Goldman Sachs in September of 2008, and why Goldman Sachs has gotten the largest stimulus payoff both directly and through AIG. This is done in Chicago all the time. I don't like it, but it sure as heck isn't reminiscent of another time.

    There are leaders out there if you would look for them and they have led astounding American innovation in the past 20 years that far surpasses innovation of the previous 100 years.

    Again, your whole premise is flawed.

    Tim
  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    I just realized something that I think Joey fell into, and I can't blame him as it's human nature to do this. It's a romanticized view of past leaders.

    Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner who cheated on his wife with his slave women, knocking up at least one of them. Abraham Lincoln trampled on the Constitution in the post-war era following the Civil War in order to maintain unity of the nation. George Patton was portrayed as a Nazi by the media. Lots of people who are remembered as great were not so great or certainly not treated so great in their time.

    Tim

  • Real Estate Investor · Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2009 · 267 posts · 73 votes
    17y

    Please state YOUR supposed leaders of the past 20 years Tim... I genuinely would like to know who these prominent American figures are...

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Joey Budka:
    Please state YOUR supposed leaders of the past 20 years Tim... I genuinely would like to know who these prominent American figures are...


    Off the top of my head:
    Sam Zell
    Tim McCarthy
    Sam Walton
    Larry Ellison
    Bill Gates
    Pat Tillman
    Billy Graham
    Charleton Heston
    Rudy Giuliani
    Norman Schwarzkopf

    There's more when you sit down and take the time to think them out.
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by Joey Budka:
    Please state YOUR supposed leaders of the past 20 years Tim... I genuinely would like to know who these prominent American figures are...


    Off the top of my head:
    Sam Zell
    Tim McCarthy
    Sam Walton
    Larry Ellison
    Bill Gates
    Pat Tillman
    Billy Graham
    Charleton Heston
    Rudy Giuliani
    Norman Schwarzkopf

    There's more when you sit down and take the time to think them out.

    Charleton Heston? Yea, maybe as "Moses"... Just because you own a gun doesn't make you a leader...
    :shoot:

    Also, Tim. Hank Paulson is not from Chicago and yet, he was the first to hand GS their first government check and help eliminate GS's biggest competitors such as Bear Stern. Goldman Sachs tentacles are reaching out to the left and to the right.

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Charleton Heston? Yea, maybe as "Moses"... Just because you own a gun doesn't make you a leader...


    Are you kidding Eddie? Charelton Heston, retired USAF Staff Seargent; one of VERY FEW Hollywood actors who openly supported the Civil Rights movement at it's inception and who marched with Marlin Luther King Jr. in Washington DC in 1963 before Hollywood liberals found it fashionable to; who resigned from the Actor's Equity Association actor's union for their racism.

    As a Hollywood director who I'm shocked you don't know this about Charleton Heston. You were the one who tried to "school" us about racism against the black race in America and you're attacking one of the men who marched WITH Martin Luther King Jr.? Are you serious?

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I mentioned that great leader are often not treated great in their time. Here's a perfect example.

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Charleton Heston? Yea, maybe as "Moses"... Just because you own a gun doesn't make you a leader...


    Are you kidding Eddie? Charelton Heston, retired USAF Staff Seargent; one of VERY FEW Hollywood actors who openly supported the Civil Rights movement at it's inception and who marched with Marlin Luther King Jr. in Washington DC in 1963 before Hollywood liberals found it fashionable to; who resigned from the Actor's Equity Association actor's union for their racism.



    Yes, and then he made 180 degrees and went the other way... I guess if he and Reagan stayed on the left you wouldn't even mentioned them. It wouldn't fit your politics.
  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Yes, and then he made 180 degrees and went the other way... I guess if he and Reagan stayed on the left you wouldn't even mentioned them. It wouldn't fit your politics.


    He did a 180? So you're saying by marching with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and being a champion of civil rights - he did a 180 and became a racist? That's what a 180 from a civil rights leader becomes. Show me where on this planet you can find a shred of evidence proving that this statement of yours.

    To others who happen to be reading this - here is a key lesson on leadership. The first thing that happens when you become a leader is that you come under assault. It's just a fact of life.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Show me where on this planet you can find a shred of evidence proving that this statement of yours.


    I have no idea if Heston was a racist or not (and really don't care). But, I was curious if there was a "shred of evidence" indicating he might be, as you seemed to think there wasn't...

    Here's a quote from Heston:

    "Mainstream America is counting on you to draw your sword and fight for them. These people have precious little time to and resources to battle misguided Cinderella attitudes, the fringe propaganda of the homosexual coalition, the feminists who preach that it is a divine duty for woman to hate men, blacks who raise a militant fist with one hand while they seek preference with the other..."

    Just a tad bit homophobic, just a touch sexist, and a tiny bit racist...it's got a little of everything...

    Again, I have absolutely no idea if he was racist or not, but all you asked for was a shred of evidence, and I think that qualifies...

    Oh, and in terms of being a great leader, who knows...but he did claim to have been a drunk for 30 years...

    EDIT:

    Here's another quote I found:

    "Heaven help the god-fearing law-abiding Caucasion middle class Protestant, evangelical Christian, heterosexual, NRA-card-carrying, male working stiff."

    Like above, not direct proof that he's racist, but it certainly sounds like he's ultra-sympathetic towards people just like himself and who he views his NRA membership to be.

    Again, I'd call it a "shred" of evidence...

  • Real Estate Investor · Member since 2008 · 340 posts · 34 votes
    17y

    I'd like see a list of the great liberal leaders.

    (I hear crickets in the background).

  • Real Estate Investor · Member since 2008 · 340 posts · 34 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by Joey Budka:
    Please state YOUR supposed leaders of the past 20 years Tim... I genuinely would like to know who these prominent American figures are...


    Off the top of my head:
    Sam Zell
    Tim McCarthy
    Sam Walton
    Larry Ellison
    Bill Gates
    Pat Tillman
    Billy Graham
    Charleton Heston
    Rudy Giuliani
    Norman Schwarzkopf

    There's more when you sit down and take the time to think them out.


    Let me add one, General Petraeus.
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Matthew Gil:
    I'd like see a list of the great liberal leaders.


    What does that mean? Are you talking about leaders who are registered Democrats?

    If so, there are at least a couple on Tim's list who have liberal political affiliations.

    Since this is a completely subjective discussion, it's not worth throwing out any names, as all you have to do is disagree with anyone's assertions.

    For example, I could say there have never been any [fill in the blank with an ideology] leaders, and then just argue that any names you throw out don't qualify.

    Sorry, not going down that road...

  • Investor · colorado springs, CO · Member since 2009 · 283 posts · 45 votes
    17y

    I wonder if Tillman's affiliation (or association) with Chomsky makes him a communist, socialist, terrorist, etc. Or just a great thinker

    Disclaimer here: he meant to meet and discuss Chomsky upon returning from the war but never did due to his untimely death.

  • Jeff TumbarelloPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Fort Myers, FL · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 323 votes
    17y

    I wonder when are we going to associate Buffett with AIG? That Albatross should be hung around the oracles neck?

    For some reason he gets a pass.

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jeff Tumbarello:
    I wonder when are we going to associate Buffett with AIG? That Albatross should be hung around the oracles neck?

    For some reason he gets a pass.


    Jeff,
    You misunderstand how Chicago politics works. What the rest of the country call insider trading - Chicago calls creative investing. What the rest of the country calls bribing - Chicago calls a capital investment. What the rest of the country calls pay for play politics - Chicago calls community organizing. We all know Cook county is corrupt but I never knew how corrupt until I talked to a guy who's worked real estate deals in the US, South America and Europe and said the most corrupt government in the 3 continents he's ever had to deal with was Cook County, Illinois.

    It's easy to predict the results you buy and it became clear to me that the "oracle" should probably be named the "manipulator".

    Tim

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Again, I'd call it a "shred" of evidence...


    :roll: Show me one case where a person has specifically CHOSEN his or her own race.
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by Jeff Tumbarello:
    I wonder when are we going to associate Buffett with AIG? That Albatross should be hung around the oracles neck?

    For some reason he gets a pass.


    Jeff,
    You misunderstand how Chicago politics works. What the rest of the country call insider trading - Chicago calls creative investing. What the rest of the country calls bribing - Chicago calls a capital investment. What the rest of the country calls pay for play politics - Chicago calls community organizing. We all know Cook county is corrupt but I never knew how corrupt until I talked to a guy who's worked real estate deals in the US, South America and Europe and said the most corrupt government in the 3 continents he's ever had to deal with was Cook County, Illinois.

    It's easy to predict the results you buy and it became clear to me that the "oracle" should probably be named the "manipulator".

    Tim

    I don't see how you connect Buffet to Chicago politics. Are you sure you're not talking about Jimmy Buffet? With your logic, I'm sure Enron was also based in Chicago and was connected to the Obama family (Or was it the Bush family...?)
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Again, I'd call it a "shred" of evidence...


    Show me one case where a person has specifically CHOSEN his or her own race.



    I have no idea what that statement has to do with anything that's being discussed...again Tim, why bother typing if you're not going to actually say anything?

    As to your statement, there are plenty of examples of mixed race people who -- based on their looks -- can comfortably pick which race they want to be associated with and based on their heritage can legitimately claim different races.

    For example, my best friend's wife is half caucasian, half asian. Based on her looks, she can convince people she is asian if she wants, or completely caucasian if she wants. It's been completely up to her her entire life.

    And when she fills out a form that asks for race, she can honestly say "asian" or "caucasion."

    Does that answer your question? Any more questions I can help you with?

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:

    I don't see how you connect Buffet to Chicago politics. Are you sure you're not talking about Jimmy Buffet? With your logic, I'm sure Enron was also based in Chicago and was connected to the Obama family (Or was it the Bush family...?)


    Eddie -

    That's not the way Tim works. He makes the ridiculous statement FIRST, and THEN tries to figure out how to support it later when he gets called on it.

    On the bright side, it sounds like a lot of people here besides us have already figured that out...
  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    I don't see how you connect Buffet to Chicago politics.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PDLcL0H_5k&feature=related
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