Tiny home development
Most Popular Reply
Bill BockwoldtPro Member
Investor · Petaluma, CA · Member since 2013 · 58 posts · 33 votesI live just up the road from the Tiny Homes office and demonstration area where they have several models. These were done by Jay Shafer who has http://www.fourlightshouses.com/ and http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/.
This is what we learned on our last visit checking out their models:
1. In Sonoma county (Northern CA), these are considered RV's and can not have permanent utility connections - with the exception of as an assisted living unit where home healthcare workers may visit (so you could put one in your backyard for Grandma if you were taking care of her there and leave the utilities permanently connected). If someone reports you, they will come out and verify you have disconnected the utilities and then come at random intervals to check on you. The office manager told us they have exhausted the market for people who will set up technically "illegal" housing in their back yard.
2. Regulation can be local/county/state specific but generally in CA RV's can't become stationary, and tiny homes are classified as RVs (at least in CA). The minimum sq. ft. for a permanent structure (e.g. granny unit) is 640 sq. ft. in our county. They continue to petition the State of CA to try to get tiny homes reclassified, and no local politician wants to remove the ordinance banning stationary RVs (we all know where that might lead).
3. They said Jay Shafer has sold the Tiny House business to Champion Homes (large producer of manufactured homes) and he now focuses on designing/building structures around 800 sq. ft. (supplied by Champion) because they are considered manufactured homes (e.g. fancier mobile homes). We toured an 840 sq. ft. 2br/1ba home that cost $60k (base) and came in at around $90k as constructed. It had stainless appliances/tile/concrete countertops and was mostly bare wood (aesthetic) or sheetrock, and had a minimalist/vacation home feel to it. It also had a nice front deck bolted on (we were considering something like that for a vacation home on a bare lot near the coast). You can custom-order them with whatever features/configuration/materials you can think up and they prepare a custom quote. The permits run about $9k where we live, and they will level the ground and bring utilities from the lot line to the structure for $15k. The price of the home includes delivery/assembly.
The overwhelming concern, as pointed out by many in this thread, is zoning and costs in your area. They don't make sense in the town where we live, but if you can build them yourself and have raw/cheap land with access to utilities then they might be more interesting as an investment.
66 Replies
- Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2014 · 4 posts · 6 votes12y
Karen, you would actually be surprised on the amount of people that are in demand for these such as, a lot that had a broken down house, where myself and a Real estate agent that liked the idea and tore it down, put up 3, 179 sq. Ft. Off grid home's that are on the states power supply and are rented out by the night for people passing through since it's right by a main casino and horse track. Also, I have had 79 inquiries in the past month for production of multiple micro home's to be put up for people in college on a low budget or people that are doctor's, lawyer's etc. That have wanted to downsize due to the luxury of these. So believe it or not it's the "Apple" of Real estate at this point .
- Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes12y
@Jon Faulconer i don't deny that they have a lot of appeal for certain demographics. I was speaking more to the "off the grid" homes. Though there are a few uses such as you've described that would be ideal for such houses, overall there doesn't seem like there'd be huge demand.
On the other hand, for in law suites, college kids, etc. if a local municipality will allow it, I think they're great. I've checked into them myself, though a little larger, for possible use in a bed and breakfast I thought of doing at my house which sits on 20 acres. Unfortunately, the powers that be wouldn't let me do it
On American Dream Builders they had an episode on small modulars, and it's incredible what they did with them! Small space big designs!.
- Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2014 · 4 posts · 6 votes12y
Karen,
they wouldn't let you do it huh? There are loop holes, if it's not on a permanent foundation, it's considered basically a trailor which is what they're built on and yes I have seen the mod homes...my father has developed and built 10 of them, since they're considered "prefabs" and made them look more luxurious than your average new home... because of it's appeal we both know, but, as far as micro homes go.. I developed an app that connects any construction companies database and tell's you current, future and past projects. The whole point though is to contact the builder an simply ask if I can take a load of recycled materials (1load=1-2 ton's) which makes the cost of production on average $3,500-$4,700 then either renting them out or flipping them for $17,850 (my first one I did) to $38,000 so I'd say that's a good roi or for an experiment even. I'd like to show you the demographics of demand, capitalization, c.o.p and actual sells compared to the average spec or custom home?
- Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
One problem with your idea of 50 tiny houses on 1 acres is zoning. I know that some places there is no zoning concerns but around here, you could never get 50 units on 1 acre. Most of the zoning around here requires 2 off street parking per unit, that's 100 parking spaces already. Then there is impervious coverage limits, in many areas 50% max for all parking, building site, sidewalks, driveways, etc. And if all that doesn't kill the project in some SF zones they max out at 3 units per acre and in MF might be 6-8 units per acre.
They used to call that kind of density mobile home parks, maybe you could have an immobile park, since the tiny house don't come with wheels.
- Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2014 · 4 posts · 6 votes12y
Karen,
they wouldn't let you do it huh? There are loop holes, if it's not on a permanent foundation, it's considered basically a trailor which is what they're built on and yes I have seen the mod homes...my father has developed and built 10 of them, since they're considered "prefabs" and made them look more luxurious than your average new home... because of it's appeal we both know, but, as far as micro homes go.. I developed an app that connects any construction companies database and tell's you current, future and past projects. The whole point though is to contact the builder an simply ask if I can take a load of recycled materials (1load=1-2 ton's) which makes the cost of production on average $3,500-$4,700 then either renting them out or flipping them for $17,850 (my first one I did) to $38,000 so I'd say that's a good roi or for an experiment even. I'd like to show you the demographics of demand, capitalization, c.o.p and actual sells compared to the average spec or custom home?
- Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
There are other zoning issues around here. One is that some zoning has minimum sq ft requirements. One place we work has 1,100 min for the whole town. The other thing that also happens is that mobiles are limited to certain zones, which makes the trailer aspect another negative.
In some areas they might consider this the same as a mobile home park which are extremely limited also.
- Developer · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 151 posts · 31 votes12y
I have completely fell for this tiny home when I went inside but they have no outlet in the US so I have used sketchup to redesign with a few modifications. Now Im just on the hunt for a framer or carpentry crew to get the ball rolling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2C3UBkbXsc
- Baton Rouge, LA · Member since 2012 · 61 posts · 10 votes12y
Has anyone moved forward with the micro-housing plans?
- Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes12y
Thought you might be interested in this link. Tiny Homes
Also, have you watched the television show on Tiny Homes? Then on the show American Dream Builders on NBC, they did an episode where everyone had a tiny home to decorate, they were modulars, and WOW they were so creative! American Dream Builders Episode 105
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes12y
George P. I don't think so, I think given the opportunity of having something on a bit of land and not being on top of a neighbor appeals to more than glorified apartment dwellers.
I'm actually taking to a guy about building some micros, advising. Issues are zoning laws, 5,000 sq ft of lot required for a SFD. Cities aren't hot on the idea as tiny homes don't pull as much in tax revenues, in this area there wouldn't be a $100K micro.
Can't believe Tumbleweed thinks plans are worth 10K, anyone who can build a storage building can do that. Google Tiny Homes and check out the pictures, some real odd balls out there.
Financing will be hard to do, now comes Bill...LOL
I like the idea of a community circle type layout. Club house, pool, laundry facility, garden area all within easy walking distance. Heck, if it fails you could turn it into a cabin retreat hunting resort or lake resort of cabins to rent. Branson has a horrible lease market for all the service workers, many are single or single parent with below average incomes. $500 a month for 15 years buys a place.
Lots of possibilities. They can go from simple to ornate and high end. Go solar and widen the appeal! The Greenies love them. :)
@David Krulac beat me to it, but yes...many places have minimum square footage requirements for a permanent residence. As far as @Jon Faulconer 's idea about using a trailer to "get around" the zoning regs, that may be fine for someone doing their own house but I personally would avoid "getting around" regulations as part of an investment model. Too many ways it could come back to bite you in the rear. Imagine having those 50 units and getting fined, say, $10k per unit AND having to demolish the units (which means refunding the purchase money or being sued for it.) Sounds extreme but with the government anything is possible...and I like to plan for all possibilities even if they seem extreme. So...long story short I'm guessing you'd be better off doing homes that meet the minimum square footage or maybe exploring the idea of a B&B-type thing like @Karen Margrave mentioned. On a side note, my wife and I just spent last weekend in Branson, MO at a B&B that was set up like that: 4 small 1br cabins. Very nice secluded setup in the woods. Quite relaxing!
- Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
Agreed, and many zoning ordinances prohibit mobile homes in many areas. And here travel trailers need motor vehicle licenses, license plates, etc. Many zoning requirements prohibit unlicensed motor vehicles.
- Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes11y
@Danny Day @Account Closed
Originally posted by @Karen Margrave:
@Danny Day @Account Closed
People of the Shire move closer to the equator and get a bit of alien influence.
- Real Estate Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2011 · 422 posts · 149 votes11y
If you really like the idea then buy a run down mobile home park and replace the units with "tiny homes". A group of tiny homes on less area than zoning requires for the same number of SFH is a trailer park. Dressing it up with fancy words doesn't change the fact. I'm sure a lot of people were enamored with the apparent affordability of Mobile homes in the 50's when it started. The reality is, in the long term it didn't last & over time this movement will fall out of popularity as well.
- Investor · Hubbard, OR · Member since 2014 · 62 posts · 37 votes11y
How about these for tiny houses. We considered buying I believe it was this one in the early '90s. Very unique. There are many other unusual tiny houses in the states. One community is in southern NM.
The issue as many have mentioned is whether you can get the municipality to let you do it.
I love the idea of having a small community of off the grid tiny houses for specific groups of people. A fishing group. Students. Perhaps a complex that can be rented to organizations for a weekend or week.
Harold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oSZ6DpsECc
- Bay Area , CA · Member since 2014 · 12 posts · 3 votes11y
I've got one sitting on one of my vacant lots. Its not quite finished yet but def spent way less than $10,000 to make it happen. To rent it for what I would like to at least $500 a month I need to hook it up to the utilities like water and sewer. Sadly the connection fees are actually going to cost more than the cost to build the whole cottage.
zoning zoning zoning. Most communities simply dont allow this and are disinclined to change the zoning or allow a variance. Forward thinking communities like Portland or Olympia may be allowing one off projects but if you google ny times gibibg homeless homes you shoukd come up with thw article (im on my phone) note that Olympia only did it to give houses to homeless and they located it on marginal land adjacent to an industrial park. Its my opinion but most traditional residential areas would fight something loke this. What is the advantage over a mobile home park? There are areas where that is allowed and a moblie home allows economies of scale which would be important for such small affordable home.
I have a lot that I would love to build a small house on but I would need a geotech report and there are some protected trees on it. Which is why a small home would work but it would need to absorb the 20k in reports and need a retaining wall and wall design. So that would push the cost per square foot. The only way i see to get the per square foot down to normal levels is to uae a moblie. Which of course is expressly foebidden by code. End result? Vacant trash strewn lot. Sad.
Love the idea. Work on pull with your local building council and start attending meetings. Good luck.
- Bay Area , CA · Member since 2014 · 12 posts · 3 votes11y
Originally posted by @Eric B.:
zoning zoning zoning. Most communities simply dont allow this and are disinclined to change the zoning or allow a variance. Forward thinking communities like Portland or Olympia may be allowing one off projects but if you google ny times gibibg homeless homes you shoukd come up with thw article (im on my phone) note that Olympia only did it to give houses to homeless and they located it on marginal land adjacent to an industrial park. Its my opinion but most traditional residential areas would fight something loke this. What is the advantage over a mobile home park? There are areas where that is allowed and a moblie home allows economies of scale which would be important for such small affordable home.
I have a lot that I would love to build a small house on but I would need a geotech report and there are some protected trees on it. Which is why a small home would work but it would need to absorb the 20k in reports and need a retaining wall and wall design. So that would push the cost per square foot. The only way i see to get the per square foot down to normal levels is to uae a moblie. Which of course is expressly foebidden by code. End result? Vacant trash strewn lot. Sad.
Love the idea. Work on pull with your local building council and start attending meetings. Good luck.
I'm sure this is all pretty true. I think of mine more like a granny unit so it is more like an actual small house with character rather than a cheap trailer home plus its not on wheels but a pier block foundation. It also happens to be in an urban area where the neighbors don't really care what is on other's property. A nicer area like your protected lot would of course bring more fees and nosey neighbors to make complaints with planning and building. If it is on wheels that could be a way of getting around the permit issue to some extent but again it could be tricky if others find out someone lives there full time. I also know of a tiny house community being built in Lemon Cove CA. And Occupy Madison in Wisconsin just build a permitted village for low income and homeless people.
- Bay Area , CA · Member since 2014 · 12 posts · 3 votes11y
- Accountant · Pleasant Garden, NC · Member since 2015 · 39 posts · 11 votes11y
I've been intrigued by tiny houses for some time. From what I understand, they are considered tiny at 400 sq feet and less. Most are built on trailer frames with wheels, therefore they are considered RV's. If built on a foundation you have to consider zoning first and foremost. So from an investment standpoint, I wonder if the best could be to work with a builder to build them, sell them separately, and invest in land to set up spaces like a mobile home park and rent/lease the spaces??
Here's a article with nice pictures of different tiny house styles:
- Rental Property Investor · Oldsmar, FL · Member since 2014 · 238 posts · 61 votes11y
I love this tiny home concept. I have been reading the tiny home magazine for some time. I think in certain areas this will work. I even thought of putting a few of them on the back side of my rental property.
I look at it like adding an apartment above the garage/ work shed. Zoning is key for sure.
- Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 1 vote11y
Originally posted by @Yasmina Malik:
I've got one sitting on one of my vacant lots. Its not quite finished yet but def spent way less than $10,000 to make it happen. To rent it for what I would like to at least $500 a month I need to hook it up to the utilities like water and sewer. Sadly the connection fees are actually going to cost more than the cost to build the whole cottage.
@Yasmina - This! This is gorgeous!!!!
- Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2014 · 31 posts · 5 votes11y
I love the tv show and the idea. The challenge seems to be how much storage and usability you can get into such a small area. Pretty amazing! I think it is a great idea, stop hoarding and get back to the basics of living. Unfortunately, like the group has said, zoning will be an issue in most places. I can see this being around camp grounds but other than that it would have to be a rural area and then might have some issues for people with transportation if they are renting/buying due to the price of the homes. Getting a loan like you have said will probably be the biggest issue.
- 11yBill BockwoldtPro MemberInvestor · Petaluma, CA · Member since 2013 · 58 posts · 33 votes
I live just up the road from the Tiny Homes office and demonstration area where they have several models. These were done by Jay Shafer who has http://www.fourlightshouses.com/ and http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/.
This is what we learned on our last visit checking out their models:
1. In Sonoma county (Northern CA), these are considered RV's and can not have permanent utility connections - with the exception of as an assisted living unit where home healthcare workers may visit (so you could put one in your backyard for Grandma if you were taking care of her there and leave the utilities permanently connected). If someone reports you, they will come out and verify you have disconnected the utilities and then come at random intervals to check on you. The office manager told us they have exhausted the market for people who will set up technically "illegal" housing in their back yard.
2. Regulation can be local/county/state specific but generally in CA RV's can't become stationary, and tiny homes are classified as RVs (at least in CA). The minimum sq. ft. for a permanent structure (e.g. granny unit) is 640 sq. ft. in our county. They continue to petition the State of CA to try to get tiny homes reclassified, and no local politician wants to remove the ordinance banning stationary RVs (we all know where that might lead).
3. They said Jay Shafer has sold the Tiny House business to Champion Homes (large producer of manufactured homes) and he now focuses on designing/building structures around 800 sq. ft. (supplied by Champion) because they are considered manufactured homes (e.g. fancier mobile homes). We toured an 840 sq. ft. 2br/1ba home that cost $60k (base) and came in at around $90k as constructed. It had stainless appliances/tile/concrete countertops and was mostly bare wood (aesthetic) or sheetrock, and had a minimalist/vacation home feel to it. It also had a nice front deck bolted on (we were considering something like that for a vacation home on a bare lot near the coast). You can custom-order them with whatever features/configuration/materials you can think up and they prepare a custom quote. The permits run about $9k where we live, and they will level the ground and bring utilities from the lot line to the structure for $15k. The price of the home includes delivery/assembly.
The overwhelming concern, as pointed out by many in this thread, is zoning and costs in your area. They don't make sense in the town where we live, but if you can build them yourself and have raw/cheap land with access to utilities then they might be more interesting as an investment.
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