Getting City Permits and Doing the Work Yourself
Investor · Howey in the Hills, FL · Member since 2013 · 376 posts · 114 votes
I have two duplexes that need the windows replaced. Me and my Dad are planning on doing the work ourselves since we know how to do it and we can save a substantial amount of money. The problem is getting a permit from the city. They only allow you to do the work yourself if you plan on living in the property. They require investors to have the work performed by contractors.
How would I go about handling this if I want to do the work myself? The contractors I've talked to want a ridiculous amount of money to replace windows. Can I pay a contractor to pull a permit and sign off on the job? Has anyone figured out a way to make this work?
This law is complete illogical BS. The city permitting department doesn't even know the reason for it, other than "that's just the way it is".
I have two duplexes that need the windows replaced. Me and my Dad are planning on doing the work ourselves since we know how to do it and we can save a substantial amount of money. The problem is getting a permit from the city. They only allow you to do the work yourself if you plan on living in the property. They require investors to have the work performed by contractors.
How would I go about handling this if I want to do the work myself? The contractors I've talked to want a ridiculous amount of money to replace windows. Can I pay a contractor to pull a permit and sign off on the job? Has anyone figured out a way to make this work?
This law is complete illogical BS. The city permitting department doesn't even know the reason for it, other than "that's just the way it is".
There is no way to do what you want to do legally, but I'm guessing you already know this.
And there actually is a very good reason why these statutes exist even if the building dept you talked to doesn't know why. It's to protect others who will end up in contact with the work from you. (tenants or another owner if you'd sell it)
There is a difference in the USA between your home domicile that you will live in and a property bought for financial gain at the expense of others. The pioneer spirit that is the founding of the USA is the basis for being able to do things you're not qualified to do to your own home, but it stops there when it comes to doing it as a business that others may suffer from and/or be victimized as a result. There is more leeway in our laws and beliefs in not protecting you from yourself in your own home, but less when it comes to protecting others from you in an investment property.
There are contractors who will pull permits for you illegally just as there are drug dealers who will sell you drugs or people you could by stolen guns from, all of which are illegal to do.
As said, to do it legally you could actually in some places become a contractor. Some jurisdictions require proven experience and passing a test, some don't, most will require a copy of a general liability insurance policy naming the building dept as additionally insured, some may not. Check with the building dept and see what it takes to get licensed, they might only require you pay them $25.00 for a business license and you're good to go, but the odds are against it.
1) You're talking about lazy people not pulling permits. I have no problem with pulling the permit, if I were actually allowed to do it!
2) I have no problem with building codes. There absolutely should be building codes and an inspector who checks to make sure the job done is up to code and safe. Mandating that investors hire contractors and allowing homeowners to do the work themselves is BS.
3) I understand the requirements for lead based paint. The difference is that the requirements are the same for contractors and homeowners. THAT makes more sense than allowing homeowners to perform work themselves and requiring investors to hire contractors.
It is because you are catering the public. In a school district, when you install an underground pipe, they will require a type K, in residentials you are only required type L, that means, in laymans term, type K is three times thicker and twice the price of type L. On top of that pipe, you are required to put a metallic tape just so they could detect when they wave that utility detector wand 10 years from now, and theres a 90% chance that the technology will outgrow that in 10 years. There are a lot of rules when you deal with the public. But what I know being a contractor is, if you touch a window, you need a lead test if your building is pre-78, doesnt matter if your window is 6"x6". Either, you would still go under a contractor, or pay for education to get certified to be EPA-RRP certified.
That's not quite true Mike.
If there hasn't been a lead inspection, then the homeowner is free to renovate their property, but they can't delead their property. It's illegal for anyone to try to specifically delead the property before an inspection,
Hi Derreck
Let me be clearer - I'm just referring to renovations. The EPA lets a homeowner do the demo in a home older than 1978 with or without testing it for lead, and even if it's tested and found to have lead paint the EPA still lets the homeowner do the demo in their own home, an investor cannot do this in an investment property.
As you probably know the EPA even lets the homeowner do the demo in a house with lead paint and then they can hire a non-certified contractor to do the reno, the EPA won't let the homeowner/investor do this in a investment property.
People generally think that by removing or covering all the lead below 5' it's good. I've seen door frames covered or cut out and replaced with pine from 5' down and baseboards covered with lauan, sure signs of UD.
That would be rather interesting to see, where are they getting the idea of some sort of 5 foot rule?
Again Mike, not quite accurate. It all depends on if there has been a lead inspection. If there's a lead inspection done and the property is in violation, the homeowner can not demo or do any of the work without taking a training class and getting certified. As far as I know, around here as long as your name is on the deed, you're the "homeowner" and fall into that category. Different states will have different laws on what classifies you as a "homeowner". In MA, a 4 family or bigger is a commercial property, that's probably the cut off.
As for the 5' rule, it's real. I assume the "powers that be" that created the laws figured that no one under 7 years old is taller then 5', so they can't chew on the door frame up that high. Outside corners on walls and door frames really only have to be covered up to 5' above the floor. The point is if you see it, you know the property was deleaded by a hack at some point, usually by a homeowner just trying to pass the initial inspection, which is illegal. Had he renovated the house and replaced the doors and door frames, that would be legal. No contractor that I know will cut the door casing at the 5' mark and only replace from there to the floor, we'd pull the whole casing so it all matched.
I've seen entire door jams, including the stop, that were covered with lauan and the door was cut narrower to fit the tighter space. That's a lot more work then just replacing the door with a pre-hung door, and it would have cost the homeowner more in labor then they saved in materials if a legit contractor had done it. I don't think that's something a real contractor would do, so it was pretty obvious that was UD.
People do some silly things trying to save a buck.
Derreck
Auto body shop is a bad comparison. Long term employees performing fairly repetitive tasks in the same environment over and over again... materials shipped to the same place means less logistical nightmare to contend with.
Cars are also a lot less of a team sport. The electrician has to deal with the plumber, HVAC, and carpenter to get his job done... and the GC has to keep all those plates spinning at just the right speed to make sure that the job gets done correctly.
Also, unless we're talking about Pegani sports cars, a house is a whole lot more expensive and dangerous to work on than a car.
This is one of the things that I preach a lot and I have a hard time getting people to understand - construction is one of the most challenging assembly industries in existence. Houses are 100% hand assembled on site by huge teams of people with all parts delivered to non-warehouse locations. The logistics, legalities, and human realities of getting this done is staggering.
Again Mike, not quite accurate. It all depends on if there has been a lead inspection. If there's a lead inspection done and the property is in violation, the homeowner can not demo or do any of the work without taking a training class and getting certified. As far as I know, around here as long as your name is on the deed, you're the "homeowner" and fall into that category. Different states will have different laws on what classifies you as a "homeowner". In MA, a 4 family or bigger is a commercial property, that's probably the cut off.
Absolutely incorrect. The EPA clearly states that the RRP does not apply to homeowners. All EPA information for homeowners are only suggestions of safe work practices not requirements.
Locally this may not be the case as the EPA has allowed local municipalities to set stricter standards. In your area homeowners may not be allowed to due renovations with a positive lead test, but every comment I've made has been prefaced by saying "the EPA".
Originally posted by @Mike Finley:
"In reality, the EPA says a homeowner can do all the demo"
From the EPA :
How can homeowners protect themselves and their families from exposure to lead dust if they plan on doing their own renovations?The RRP Rule does not impose requirements on homeowners performing renovations in their own homes.
6. What if I do the work myself?
The EPA regulations do not apply to individual homeowners making their own repairs or painting their home. However, if you suspect there is lead paint in your home or your home has tested positive for lead paint, take the time to read the EPA's "Renovate Right" brochure for information about how to work safely.
Some of the prices charged for simple plumbing and electrical are very large. I truly believe if the prices were not so high more people would hire things out. I was quoted this week 600 to set a tub and install a new shower valve. That's ridiculous. I would much rather hire everything but the costs of some things just don't make it feasible.
Electricians and plumbers run a business to make money so they can pay their mortgage, put their kids through school, go out to the movies just like you want to flip houses or rent houses to do the same thing.
The rehab costs should have been calculated before you bought the property to decide whether the price you could buy it for was low enough to make the numbers work.
If one plumber is charging $600 for something and all other plumbers are charging $300 than you've got a problem with one plumber. If they are all charging $600 and you were hoping it would only cost $300, you've got a problem with how you're calculating your rehab costs.
This is a general discussion about how a governing law can be necessary in one instance and overbearing and unnecessary in another. And most of the difference is based on liability and personal accountability. There is no answer or solution to this dilemma. Which is why there is so much gridlock in government. Case by case analysis is the only fair approach in my book. But that won't work for everyone else. See.
cant you live in the property for short term do the work then move out ? I am sure the savings would be substantial
Are these new windws , or replacement windows ? Rules are different across the country , but in my county in Maryland , no permit is required to remove and replace a window as long as the window is the same size or smaller .
Does the building have city orders on it and therefore the attention of the city? People replace windows every day in every zip code without permits and no one cares. I'm not anti-permit at all, but a window is a really easy low-hazard repair.
Auto body shop is a bad comparison. Long term employees performing fairly repetitive tasks in the same environment over and over again... materials shipped to the same place means less logistical nightmare to contend with.
Cars are also a lot less of a team sport. The electrician has to deal with the plumber, HVAC, and carpenter to get his job done... and the GC has to keep all those plates spinning at just the right speed to make sure that the job gets done correctly.
This is one of the things that I preach a lot and I have a hard time getting people to understand - construction is one of the most challenging assembly industries in existence. Houses are 100% hand assembled on site by huge teams of people with all parts delivered to non-warehouse locations. The logistics, legalities, and human realities of getting this done is staggering.
Autoboy in my opinion is a fairly good comparison. There are multiple people involved in the repair. The body tech, the Mechanic, The painter, the estimator, the parts department both in house and from manufacturer, possibly the insurance company. Automotive tolerances electrical systems, computer systems are much harder than general construction. I would like to see the average carpenter/ electrician, etc, remove the front end of a car, remove the engine, straighten damaged frame rails, cut out and replace what is needed to within a .0-.3 mm tolerance and then get it all put back together and guarantee that if there is another wreck that the air bags will go off at the right millisecond. Also needing to match the prior fit, finish, and look exactly.
People also mentioned about how electricians, plumbers, etc are only hired for a few days. Just like any thing else you only pay for the time you need some one. Someone mentioned that if i hire a plumber for a year I could get a better rate. What kind of logic is that? If the job is 2 days its 2 days. Do you hire your auto mechanic or gas station attendant for a full year to get a better price. Why should I have to pay them more because they can not keep there schedule full. I shouldn't have to pay a weeks wages because they only have work for 2 days. I work just like everyone else that has a job and pay my mortgage, taxes send kids to school, etc. Just because you are in the construction industry dosn't make you special.
You say that you believe home repairs and construction is one of the most challenging assembly industries I do not agree with. Tell that to the guy that is building an airplane, or assembling a pacemaker. I am not saying that construction is easy. It is not! I just believe that some of the trades labor prices have gotten exaggerated and over inflated.
All I was trying to say was that if the general public was allowed to pull there own permits and do repairs, the cost of the repairs would be less. In a way there is a monopoly on anything that requires a permit. If there are codes in force and no matter who does the repair it has to be to the same standard, why am i required to hire someone at $100/ hour and not be allowed to do it myself. By making the public hire specific people that can set there rates where ever they want, there is no choice or regulation on prices.
Absolutely incorrect. The EPA clearly states that the RRP does not apply to homeowners. All EPA information for homeowners are only suggestions of safe work practices not requirements.
Locally this may not be the case as the EPA has allowed local municipalities to set stricter standards. In your area homeowners may not be allowed to due renovations with a positive lead test, but every comment I've made has been prefaced by saying "the EPA".
Originally posted by Mike F.:
"In reality, the EPA says a homeowner can do all the demo"
From the EPA :
How can homeowners protect themselves and their families from exposure to lead dust if they plan on doing their own renovations?The RRP Rule does not impose requirements on homeowners performing renovations in their own homes.
6. What if I do the work myself?
The EPA regulations do not apply to individual homeowners making their own repairs or painting their home. However, if you suspect there is lead paint in your home or your home has tested positive for lead paint, take the time to read the EPA's "Renovate Right" brochure for information about how to work safely.
Mike, RRP (Renovating, Repair, and Painting) is NOT deleading. They are 2 different things with 2 different sets of laws. That's why I said if the homeowner is "renovating" and happens to remove the lead, it's legal, but if they're deleading, it's illegal. You can not attempt to delead your house before you have an initial lead inspection done just to avoid hiring a deleader.
@Matthew B. I also think it's wrong to ask a contractor to help you cheat by obtaining permits and signing-off on work he hasn't done. I don't always like the system but I work within it. Rather than make ethical or legal compromises, you'd do better to accept it or try to change the system through political means.
These are replacement windows and in Florida they have to be permitted and inspected for obvious reasons (i.e. hurricanes).
Windows are probably the most obvious thing you can replace on a house besides the roof. It's not like plumbing or electrical where you have to look hard to tell work has been done. Nice, new windows would stick out like giant red flags.
My problem is not with the permits or the inspections or the contractors. There absolutely should be a permitting process and an inspection for critical jobs. I do have an issue with the fact that a homeowner can perform the same work that investor is forced to use a contractor for, and the inspector still comes out and can pass either job. No matter who does the work, it still gets inspected and it has to meet code.
Of course every contractor is going to say they're underpaid and overworked and that everyone should be mandated to have a contractor perform the work. I understand that. It's job security. Everyone wants to make money. But the argument about public safety carries no weight.
As far as the price aspect, I have a hard time paying someone $169 per window to replace them. And I still have to supply the windows! Each window takes about 30 minutes to replace. That's $338 an hour! Plumbers wanted $3,000 to repipe a 2 bed, 1 bath. It takes 2 guys a little less than a day, and around $500 in materials. That's $2,500 split between a plumber and a helper, for one days work. We're talking about cutting and glueing. Hundreds of dollars an hour. Now we're in doctor and lawyer land for something that requires (arguably) less skill and training. I no longer wonder how contractors afford fleets of newer trucks with lift kits and airbrushed flames down the side.
Just because I know someone is going to say it - I've replaced windows and repiped a house, so I know first hand what it involves. It's not rocket science.
These are replacement windows and in Florida they have to be permitted and inspected for obvious reasons (i.e. hurricanes).
Windows are probably the most obvious thing you can replace on a house besides the roof. It's not like plumbing or electrical where you have to look hard to tell work has been done. Nice, new windows would stick out like giant red flags.
My problem is not with the permits or the inspections or the contractors. There absolutely should be a permitting process and an inspection for critical jobs. I do have an issue with the fact that a homeowner can perform the same work that investor is forced to use a contractor for, and the inspector still comes out and can pass either job. No matter who does the work, it still gets inspected and it has to meet code.
Of course every contractor is going to say they're underpaid and overworked and that everyone should be mandated to have a contractor perform the work. I understand that. It's job security. Everyone wants to make money. But the argument about public safety carries no weight.
As far as the price aspect, I have a hard time paying someone $169 per window to replace them. And I still have to supply the windows! Each window takes about 30 minutes to replace. That's $338 an hour! Plumbers wanted $3,000 to repipe a 2 bed, 1 bath. It takes 2 guys a little less than a day, and around $500 in materials. That's $2,500 split between a plumber and a helper, for one days work. We're talking about cutting and glueing. Hundreds of dollars an hour. Now we're in doctor and lawyer land for something that requires (arguably) less skill and training. I no longer wonder how contractors afford fleets of newer trucks with lift kits and airbrushed flames down the side.
Just because I know someone is going to say it - I've replaced windows and repiped a house, so I know first hand what it involves. It's not rocket science.
Very well said and I agree completely. If the work has a standard and a code that must be followed in order to pass inspection why does it matter who performs the task.
@Matthew B. I also think it's wrong to ask a contractor to help you cheat by obtaining permits and signing-off on work he hasn't done. I don't always like the system but I work within it. Rather than make ethical or legal compromises, you'd do better to accept it or try to change the system through political means.
Or he could just do the work without the permit, doing an illegal action such as "borrowing" a license and doing the work himself is still illegal, he is still not a contractor, he is not an employee of the company, and we know he cant be a 1099 either. illegal is illegal, no ifs, no buts.
Or he could just do the work without the permit, doing an illegal action such as "borrowing" a license and doing the work himself is still illegal, he is still not a contractor, he is not an employee of the company, and we know he cant be a 1099 either. illegal is illegal, no ifs, no buts.
Not sure why I was tagged in this I never once said do the work with out a permit. I don't have a problem with permits or codes. The problem is forcing me to hire what I believe is an overpriced electriction or plumber to change light fixtures or faucets at 100 plus per hour when it is simple to do. A contractor would not send out the master electriction to do it any way. It would be the new guy with limited experience because they are simple tasks. again why can't I do it if it has to be inspected either way.
If it's done correctly why does it matter who does it?
Not one person has answered this question. All anyone has done is try and justify why the prices are so high. Everyone talks about taxes, insurance, etc. Do any of the contractors have a good reason why I should have to hire them instead of doing it myself. If I pull a permit, have it inspected, and it is done correct why should I have to pay someone else to do it. I'm not talking about joe homeowner that does what he wants with no permit or inspection that's illegal.
Originally posted by @Shawn Pehrson:
A contractor would not send out the master electriction to do it any way. It would be the new guy with limited experience because they are simple tasks.
It's a rare contractor that actually has an licensed master electrician or a licensed journeyman, nor a licensed wire man on staff as an employee, (to have a journeyman electrician or a wireman on staff he'd either have to employ a master electrician or be a master electrician and a GC) so it's a rare contractor who would be sending out anyone at all, it would be the electrical contractors call on who is sent out and of course if he has a crew, his journeyman or wireman is exactly who he should be sending out.
Would you drive and walk a check to city hall to pay a tax bill or would you use the US mail? Business owners of course delegate tasks to the most expedient method.
Not one person has answered this question. All anyone has done is try and justify why the prices are so high. Everyone talks about taxes, insurance, etc. Do any of the contractors have a good reason why I should have to hire them instead of doing it myself. If I pull a permit, have it inspected, and it is done correct why should I have to pay someone else to do it. I'm not talking about joe homeowner that does what he wants with no permit or inspection that's illegal.
Shawn , the prices are what the market will bear . For me to make $ 70,000 a year I need to gross around $ 115,000 . Thats basically billing out $ 425 per day . Now billing hourly you get to bill 8 hours a day , there is travel time , estimates , picking up materials . So our hourly rate is $ 95.00 per hour , at the end of the year it averages to $ 425 per day .
I agree with you on the inspections , it shouldnt matter who does the work , if it passes inspection , it should be fine. But the local governments like money , they get the permit fees, the inspection fees , and with a permit the improvements are recorded and the tax basis of the property goes up . its all about the money .
@Shawn Pehrson If I'm buying a house that has been flipped, I'd much rather know the work was professionaly done. For one thing, it gives me a licensed entity that I can call if there is a problem with their work. Once you've sold me the house, I doubt I can call you back to correct any problem. And I also have no way of assessing your competency in performing the work. It's all well and good to pass inspection but that is a very limited assessment and really doesn't tell me much about the quality of your work in toto.
As for contractor costs: everything is relative. Could not a buyer of one of your flips question the amount you are charging them for the house? After all, you only paid X amount for it, only put Y amount into it and it only took you Z amount of time. Why, you're making $$$$$$$$$ an hour! :)
@Shawn Pehrson If I'm buying a house that has been flipped, I'd much rather know the work was professionaly done. For one thing, it gives me a licensed entity that I can call if there is a problem with their work. Once you've sold me the house, I doubt I can call you back to correct any problem. And I also have no way of assessing your competency in performing the work. It's all well and good to pass inspection but that is a very limited assessment and really doesn't tell me much about the quality of your work in toto.
As for contractor costs: everything is relative. Could not a buyer of one of your flips question the amount you are charging them for the house? After all, you only paid X amount for it, only put Y amount into it and it only took you Z amount of time. Why, you're making $$$$$$$$$ an hour! :)
Haha, that actually made me laugh out loud. Nobody asks them why the rent is 600 when the amount on the house is 40,000. If I am to buy a flipped house, I look for guarantee from thr contractor who did the work and give building official to see if it matched. And my insurance agent got at least 5,000 in commissions from me and what they did is spend 3 mins per email and it probably took them 40 emails to get everything done, we know that they only take my emails and forward them to xx company and take xx company's response and forward it to me. brings the total of 40 emails x 3 mins/email =120 mins and $5,000, $2,500/hour.
... and the GC has to keep all those plates spinning at just the right speed to make sure that the job gets done correctly.
This is one of the things that I preach a lot and I have a hard time getting people to understand - construction is one of the most challenging assembly industries in existence. Houses are 100% hand assembled on site by huge teams of people with all parts delivered to non-warehouse locations. The logistics, legalities, and human realities of getting this done is staggering.
: ) Are you serious???
I was a police officer for 28 years (retired Oct 2014) and my wife is a stay at home mom. Neither of us have ANY construction trade experience.
We built a 5,018 square foot home (plus a 4 car attached garage) in CA in 2009. My wife and I acted as the General Contractor. We drew the plans on a $49 Home Architect Deluxe program from Staples, took the plans to a structural engineer and a civil engineer, had the lot compacted, subbed out the various trades, and coordinated the various city inspections.
We also handled the financing end of the project, requesting draws from the bank as the progress of the project moved forward.
We went from lot compaction to occupancy permit in 11 months. (The interior finish carpentry work was the logjam in the construction process, taking a full two months to complete. I should have hired separate carpenters for the doors, crown molding, baseboard and cabinet install...)The lot cost $162k and the construction loan was for $395k. (I mention that only to point out that this was not a simple little cookie cutter house.)
It was a piece of cake. It is time intensive, but very, very simple.
I pulled all of the permits, met with city planning, city building and the city inspectors when they came to the project.
Any idiot can successfully GC a residential construction project...
My IQ is probably marginally above "village idiot" and I was able to do this while working a full time job.
It was a piece of cake. There is nothing "magic" about General Contractors.
DL.
@DL Martin I'm more impressed that a street cop can afford to build a $557,000.00 house; you're clearly not an average "idiot"! :)
It looks nice but why did you go through all the time and expense to build it only to move to OH a few years later? I assume this was your 'dream home'.