Getting City Permits and Doing the Work Yourself
Investor · Howey in the Hills, FL · Member since 2013 · 376 posts · 114 votes
I have two duplexes that need the windows replaced. Me and my Dad are planning on doing the work ourselves since we know how to do it and we can save a substantial amount of money. The problem is getting a permit from the city. They only allow you to do the work yourself if you plan on living in the property. They require investors to have the work performed by contractors.
How would I go about handling this if I want to do the work myself? The contractors I've talked to want a ridiculous amount of money to replace windows. Can I pay a contractor to pull a permit and sign off on the job? Has anyone figured out a way to make this work?
This law is complete illogical BS. The city permitting department doesn't even know the reason for it, other than "that's just the way it is".
I have two duplexes that need the windows replaced. Me and my Dad are planning on doing the work ourselves since we know how to do it and we can save a substantial amount of money. The problem is getting a permit from the city. They only allow you to do the work yourself if you plan on living in the property. They require investors to have the work performed by contractors.
How would I go about handling this if I want to do the work myself? The contractors I've talked to want a ridiculous amount of money to replace windows. Can I pay a contractor to pull a permit and sign off on the job? Has anyone figured out a way to make this work?
This law is complete illogical BS. The city permitting department doesn't even know the reason for it, other than "that's just the way it is".
There is no way to do what you want to do legally, but I'm guessing you already know this.
And there actually is a very good reason why these statutes exist even if the building dept you talked to doesn't know why. It's to protect others who will end up in contact with the work from you. (tenants or another owner if you'd sell it)
There is a difference in the USA between your home domicile that you will live in and a property bought for financial gain at the expense of others. The pioneer spirit that is the founding of the USA is the basis for being able to do things you're not qualified to do to your own home, but it stops there when it comes to doing it as a business that others may suffer from and/or be victimized as a result. There is more leeway in our laws and beliefs in not protecting you from yourself in your own home, but less when it comes to protecting others from you in an investment property.
There are contractors who will pull permits for you illegally just as there are drug dealers who will sell you drugs or people you could by stolen guns from, all of which are illegal to do.
As said, to do it legally you could actually in some places become a contractor. Some jurisdictions require proven experience and passing a test, some don't, most will require a copy of a general liability insurance policy naming the building dept as additionally insured, some may not. Check with the building dept and see what it takes to get licensed, they might only require you pay them $25.00 for a business license and you're good to go, but the odds are against it.
@Shawn Pehrson If I'm buying a house that has been flipped, I'd much rather know the work was professionaly done. For one thing, it gives me a licensed entity that I can call if there is a problem with their work. Once you've sold me the house, I doubt I can call you back to correct any problem. And I also have no way of assessing your competency in performing the work. It's all well and good to pass inspection but that is a very limited assessment and really doesn't tell me much about the quality of your work in toto.
As for contractor costs: everything is relative. Could not a buyer of one of your flips question the amount you are charging them for the house? After all, you only paid X amount for it, only put Y amount into it and it only took you Z amount of time. Why, you're making $$$$$$$$$ an hour! :)
Your comparison makes no sense. No one is making them rent or buy my home. If they don't like my price they have the option to buy someone else's house right? Your comparison would have to be; that if you are a first time home buyer you would have to buy from a flipper and no one else. I also can charge more because they have to buy from me and are not allowed to go any where else. And because it was done by a flipper and I have to pay short term taxes that cost more, my insurance, holding cost, interest, legal fees, realtor fees, appraisal, staging, etc. It costs a lot to run my business, isn't that how most of the GC's justify the high costs. What happens if the contractor I was forced to hire goes out of business? That never happens right? Contractor's never just change there name because they have a bad reputation either. And every licensed contractor, plumber, electriction does excellent work right. And when ever you call the "professional" because they messed something up they rush right over to help out and fix the problem.
Because you took a test, passed, and got your license means you are competant and a professional. Did you get 100% or just barely pass with a 70% it don't say that on your license does it.
Do you flip or repair your own investments? How about you cant be the GC on your own property and you have to pay someone else to do the work. Because you are technically working on your own house right? And that's not allowed.
Again point being if a permit is pulled and the work is done correctly why does it matter who does it?
It was a piece of cake. It is time intensive, but very, very simple.
Agreed, that house is a very simple design, basically a rectangular box with a hip roof and basic finishes to create flash but not very difficult in design.
There is nothing "magic" about General Contractors.
No sure why the disparaging comments to other careers, I'm sure it's not a stretch to label being a police officer as nothing magical either if you consider the job as riding around in a car all day.
I'm personally of the notion that no job or career is very difficult, the distinction of ones accomplishments as any business owner, is based upon individuals and their accomplishments, their ranking in the market position etc..
Just to distinguish a business owner from an employee puts the most lack luster business owner head and shoulders above the average employee just in terms of the business owner at least has something at risk everyday, is responsible for creating jobs and supporting employees and their families.
While GC's may be nothing magical to you, I'd tip my hat to someone out there in business before someone just collecting a check, especially one paid by others taxes. Just sayin.
@Shawn Pehrson Please calm down.
I simply offered my opinion that a prospective homebuyer of a flipped property would, in general, be better served by having had the repairs and renovations completed by a professional contractor. In the same way, I assume your customers are better served purchasing insurance from you than they would be by me.
My 2nd point was to suggest that it's easy to accuse others of greed while not questioning one's own.
Btw, I scored a 96! :)
Or he could just do the work without the permit, doing an illegal action such as "borrowing" a license and doing the work himself is still illegal, he is still not a contractor, he is not an employee of the company, and we know he cant be a 1099 either. illegal is illegal, no ifs, no buts.
Not sure why I was tagged in this I never once said do the work with out a permit. I don't have a problem with permits or codes. The problem is forcing me to hire what I believe is an overpriced electriction or plumber to change light fixtures or faucets at 100 plus per hour when it is simple to do. A contractor would not send out the master electriction to do it any way. It would be the new guy with limited experience because they are simple tasks. again why can't I do it if it has to be inspected either way.
If it's done correctly why does it matter who does it?
Not one person has answered this question. All anyone has done is try and justify why the prices are so high. Everyone talks about taxes, insurance, etc. Do any of the contractors have a good reason why I should have to hire them instead of doing it myself. If I pull a permit, have it inspected, and it is done correct why should I have to pay someone else to do it. I'm not talking about joe homeowner that does what he wants with no permit or inspection that's illegal.
Wow Shawn, you just don't get it do? The comparisons drawn are legit. Why should you get to make a profit on a rental? Why do auto insurance companies in MA charge almost 2x what they do in NH? (Because in NH, we don't need to have insurance on our cars, it's optional.)
Why do you charge so much for insurance, then up the rate if someone uses it? Aren't we paying you so we can use it if necessary? Insurance companies are the biggest scams out there. And you're going to nickel and dime your contractor? What would you say if someone came into your insurance company and tried to talk you down on your rates? You'd tell 'em to go pound sand, take it or leave it, right? Because the law says they have to have insurance.
Now you ask why we're explaining why the prices are what they are and not why the law is what it is. Here's your answer; You asked the question to a bunch of contractors, not law-making politicians. They're in a different forum all together. Go find one and ask your question there and you might get the answer you're looking for. Until then, stop raping us with your high insurance prices and we can pass that savings back to you, the customer of our businesses.
@DL Martin I'm more impressed that a street cop can afford to build a $557,000.00 house; you're clearly not an average "idiot"! :)
It looks nice but why did you go through all the time and expense to build it only to move to OH a few years later? I assume this was your 'dream home'.
We built because it was cheaper to build than to buy and because I had purchased the lot in 2002, well before the price explosion of 2008.
A GC, who I like and who I trust, lives on the street where we built. He quoted us $150 per square foot, and didn't care to even look at the plans. At that time, $150 sq ft was the "going rate" for new construction I guess... He also said, "Kitchen Aid appliances, and don't expect "anything crazy" in the kitchen or bathrooms." He told us that it would take fifteen to eighteen months to build it.
At 5,000 square feet, that would have been $750k in construction cost (plus the $162k that we paid for the lot) and we wanted a higher end house than he was proposing. We wanted Thermador and Viking appliances, travertine floors, all wood, dovetail cabinetry, 8" solid core interior doors (24 of them), whole house fan, 8' insulated garage doors, GE Smart home audio/video/cat6, Hunter ceiling fans, Kohler fixtures, multi-zone HVAC, 2x6 and 2x8 exterior wall construction, aluminum clad wood windows, custom railings, 5/8" drywall throughout, etc... There is quite a spread between $550K and $900k.
We are not in Ohio yet. A few weeks ago I bought a foreclosure house in Cincinnati (Amberley Village, very nice Cincinnati Suburb) but we still haven't sold our CA house yet. We have Ohio drivers licenses and Ohio License plates but we also have an 11 year old that doesn't get out of school until mid June. LOL. So I am rebuilding an old sports car to kill the time until we get out of here. I've spent the last 2 days grinding off 40 years of undercoating. My life is very glamorous.
Our "dream home" is somewhere in Cincinnati. We just haven't found it yet. : )
DL
p.s. I've been a policeman for 28 years. Cops make decent money in CA. But I've been a policeman for t w e n t y e i g h t years!!! I should have a couple of nickels saved up by now!!!
Robert;
Points taken.
But.
You, the Second Amendment, and the Grace of God are what keep you and your family safe. The police are with few exceptions, purely reactionary. The more urban the environment, the more reactionary the police are. Policing in 2015 has become a methodology of public relations, driven by public opinion, with liability avoidance as it's #1 priority.
I have personally worked dozens of homicides and have been onscene on literally hundreds of other homicides. Seven of my friends were killed, on patrol, trying to keep neighborhoods safe. Policing seems a worthwhile endeavor. But after 28 years, with a front row seat of the Greatest Show on Earth, I'm not so sure...
There is no such thing as crime prevention. There is only target hardening and crime displacement.
You and your neighbors, armed to the teeth, patrolling your own neighborhood, would be a far greater deterrent to crime in your neighborhood than a random police car, driving down your street once every 24 or 48 hours. All career criminals (and most juvenile offenders) know that, the criminal justice system has no remedy for their criminal activity. Only the most repeat, of repeat offenders do meaningful jail time. It used to be a revolving door. Now, there is no door. Jail space is too expensive.
Conversely, NO burglar or car thief wants anything to do with a minivan full of dads and husbands armed with Samuel Colt's finest creations. Just my opinion.
As far as the GC stuff goes, To find my subs, I just went to the job sites where large custom homes (over $1million) were being built, and if I liked what I saw, then I contacted that particular trade (in SoCal, each sub places his sign on the construction fence surrounding the house being constructed). The guys (company owners) whom we dealt with, without exception, were awesome. It was a great experience.
To be honest, I did read three "How to design and build your own home" type books prior to drawing the plans. Other than underground utilities, these books taught me everything that I needed to know to see the project through.
I do believe that 28 years of working patrol in a black and white has taught me a lot about people. If I have a "gift", it is that I am able to communicate with people. I've owned rentals for fifteen years or more and I've only had to do two evictions. On one of those two, I forgave the judgement because she had paid me over $50,000 in rents over the years that she had rented from me. It was the right thing to do. She cried when she gave me the keys. After she left, I went inside the apartment and found that she had cleaned (to the best of her ability) and I was pleased to see that nothing was broken or destroyed. Win/Win.
DL
Derreck You say that I dont "get it"
But is seems that you have no idea about what so ever about Insurance. First you think I personally set the rates, rules and regulations. 2nd you have no Idea about the insurance laws. Here is what i found after a very quick internet search.
In MA you are required to have Personal injury protection on your auto insurance. This is a very highly abused coverage and costs a lot to provide look it up. Do you even know what it is? If you live in MA shouldn't you know what you are buying? PIP is more than likely the reason for higher rates not the fact auto insurance is required. I am not licensed in MA or NH so i do not know there rates. Any state in the US that requires PIP the rates will be probably be higher. As far as NH law this is direct from there web site.
New Hampshire Motor Vehicle Laws do not require you to carry Auto Insurance, but you must be able to demonstrate that you are able to provide sufficient funds to meet New Hampshire Motor Vehicle Financial Responsibility Requirements in the event of an “at-fault” accident. If you are unable to meet these requirements your driving privileges in New Hampshire may be suspended. For more information on financial responsibility requirements you can refer to New Hampshire Statute RSA 264 or contact the New Hampshire Division of Motor Vehicles at 603-271-3101 or www.nh.gov/safety/dmv.
So if you can not prove you have sufficient funds then you either don't drive or have to get Insurance. Do you also know that most all insurance companies try to run with a 1% or less profit margin. What yours? Some companies even refund premiums back to their customers each year if there is a surplus. You ever give money back to a client at the end of the year because you made too much? Feel free to stop by my office I will find you the cheapest rate I can, again I don't set the rates. Did you also know that in every state but 3 insurance companies use your credit score to base part of your premium. I don't agree at all with it but again i don't make the rules. I would never tell some one to go pound sand I would try to make sure that they have every discount that they can get and qualify for the best rate. Maybe we have to go to a different company or they want to find a new agent. Or if they don't want to get car insurance they could just move to NH right. If insurance is so Bad why do you buy it? Only auto liability is required in most states. Do you have full coverage on your cars? Its not required. How about your home insurance not required by law so cancel it. Business insurance, I am sure you are only required to have Liability so cancel all the other coverage's because insurance is to expensive and pointless right. Look at all the money I just save you and we didn't even review your policies to see if we could find a better rate with another company.
Insurance is Risk coverage. How much risk are you willing to take? Don't insure your house that is a risk you are willing to take. Or insure it and have a 500 deductible your risk is less then and the insurance company is more, go with a 10,000 deductible your rate will go down because you are then self insuring the first 10,000 in damages. Most insurance is optional again the risk you are willing to take. You don't have to buy it.
Again all I have said is that investors shouldn't be required to hire a GC or licensed electrician. If the work is done to code and passes inspection then why does it matter who does it.
Again all I have said is that investors shouldn't be required to hire a GC or licensed electrician. If the work is done to code and passes inspection then why does it matter who does it.
You really seem to be confused on this subject. Our society has deemed it necessary to protect the public welfare by passing some laws.
ONe of those laws is that no one can make significant modifications to a property without being properly licensed and insured, allowing the public to have recourse against fraud and inferior construction. That's the law.
There are certain municipalities that have created an EXCEPTION based on the pioneer/homestead history of our nation for a HOMEOWNER on his PERSONAL RESIDENCE ONLY.
This is the exception, not the rule, and it's not even widely accepted. You happen to live in a location where they have added this exception, there are plenty of others that don't even allow this EXCEPTION.
@DL Martin - Beautiful home.
I once baked a really awesome cake, which was subjected to only my opinion about what the ingredients, frosting decorations, and flavor should be. Also, it was much cheaper than my local bakery because I didn't pay myself anything to bake the cake and didn't worry about overhead like an office, staff, or anything like that. I think I should go into the bakery business, because any idiot can bake a cake! In fact, I think that most bakeries are just rip-offs demanding $65 or more for a cake. I can do it for $15 in ingredients and use my household appliances for free!
And to be sure - baking a single cake, one at a time, for my own enjoyment, is no more complex than baking 10 or 15 cakes at the same time for demanding customers, none of whom want the same flavors or frosting decorations.
Do you see where I'm going here?
Building a single house, for yourself, is a terrible comparison to running multiple projects for others.
Saying that you built a 5,018sqft house for $395k, a project that lasted more than a year, with two people doing oversight, is disingenuous. It only cost that little because you and your wife worked for free... and did the floor plans for free... and the design work for free... and likely made a lot of decisions on-the-spot, which cannot happen when you're working for someone else.
@DL Martin - Beautiful home.
Building a single house, for yourself, is a terrible comparison to running multiple projects for others.
Saying that you built a 5,018sqft house for $395k, a project that lasted more than a year, with two people doing oversight, is disingenuous. It only cost that little because you and your wife worked for free... and did the floor plans for free... and the design work for free... and likely made a lot of decisions on-the-spot, which cannot happen when you're working for someone else.
The OP's point was that if the structure passes the city building department's inspection, then that should "be enough", no matter who does the work.
My point was that if I can pull a "owner/builder new residential construction permit", even though I am not a Construction Professional, then why shouldn't any investor be able to do the same thing, provided a permit is pulled, and the work passes inspection???
I believe that Matthew Buttner's and Shawn Pehrson's outrage stems from a belief that the construction trade industry's lobbyists have been successful in getting exclusionary legislation passed under the guise of Consumer Safety when maybe it is actually a form of Industry Protectionism, drafted with the sole purpose of keeping "The Little Guy" out. (run on sentence of the year!)
You can argue the point both ways forever and never reach an agreement. But I think that both sides can probably see the point made by the other side.
With regard to my SFR, as it applies to Southern California, I believe that you are completely off base. The custom home builder GC's that I know:
1. Do not have any more "overhead" than the typical real estate agent. He operates from his own custom home where he can "Wow!!!" potential clients with his own home. Further, he can live in it and sell it after two years without paying a capital gain.
2. Do not have office staff. Typically, they answer their own phone, meet with clients themselves and manage subs themselves. And it seems that many of their wives "keep the books." (not based on any formal survey, just my impression from the gist of conversations)
3. Do not have a hand in design. Clients find their own home plans online and then bring the home plans to the GC. The GC may help them with slight changes, such as changing a three car garage to a four car garage or enlarging the master suite, but generally, clients know what they want in a custom home.
4. Do not do energy calcs or truss calcs or engineering calcs. I don't know of any GC's who are engineers themselves or whom have engineers on staff. They farm out the structural engineering, the HVAC engineering and the truss engineering. Just like I did.
5. Do not do site, grading and/or compaction plans. They farm out civil engineering to civil engineers. Just like I did.
6. Do not have the ability to "approve" plans and/or issue permits. They walk the plans down to the city planning/building/utility department, submit the plans and wait for the plans to come back for corrections. When the city approves the plans, the city stamps them and issues a permit. The GC then uses the plans and the permit to build a house. Just like I did.
You say that my comparison was disingenuous because my wife and I worked "for free", did the floor plans for free, the design work for free and made decisions "on the spot" which could not have been done when your working for someone else.
THIS IS BIGGER POCKETS!!! That's the idea here!!! Gain knowledge, learn secrets and shortcuts, SAVE MONEY !
We wanted a 1930's, Hancock Park style house. So we drove up to Los Angeles' Hancock Park and took a hundred photos. Then we went to a bunch of model homes and when we found a room that we loved, we photo'd it and recorded it's measurements so that we could duplicate it in our house.
We then picked the house that appealed to us the most and simply copied that house's front exterior. (Hard to copy the 80 year old, mature trees, bushes, and grass though...) We then took our room dimensions and worked them into the floor plan to match the window placement.
Very very simple.
Had I used a GC, I would have paid an extra $355,000 for the house. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. My daddy didn't give me a business. I didn't inherit one penny when my parents died. Everything that I have, I have worked for. I've gotten ahead by "getting my hustle on."
I am old, I have excellent credit, I have assets, and I was very well prepared when I went searching for financing. So I got the loan.
Most people need a GC to get a new construction loan. I didn't.
I'll say it again. For people like me, GC's bring no value to the table.
DL
@Matthew B. Finding a contractor that would be willing to accept any future liability that might arise should it happen are slim to none. Hire a licensed contractor or get your license, it's that simple.
If all else fails...... Find someone to do it for you at half price......
I have a window guy and I get a good deal on the work I pay for. I get it way less than other people. Not going to elaborate on my particular situation but its legal and fine, I just got that from kicking *** and fighting my way through all the cost war bull **** that we all face in the industry and trying to make things more economical for myself.
Get out there and throw some elbows and meet the 100 people you will have to meet before you find this discounted guy for class A work and keep it all legal.....
The worst case scenario is that (just saying) you bought the places for to much money and didn't leave enough room for this work to be performed so to speak. But trust me, you look hard enough and you will find a more reasonable guy!
I'd love to get my contractors license but the State of Florida requires you to be employed by a licensed contractor for 4 years before you're eligible. That's impractical for me. However, I believe you are right about those being the only two options.
This conversation has gone on so many tangents that it's hard to keep track of... from lead paint, to insurance, to baking cakes? Didn't see that coming.
What I've learned:
1) Contractors feel like they don't get paid enough.
2) People can come up with some pretty terrible comparisons... :)
3) There are only 2 solutions to my issue. Either get a contractors license or hire a contractor.
4) No one can make a logical argument for why Harry Homeowner can pull a permit for his own house and not for his rental property next door.
5) Police officers in California are RICH!!
@Matthew B. is this a city or county requirement? Curious... do you have a link showing the requirement(s) pertaining to window replacement (Alterations Level-2 here, NC Existing Building code)?
Are you referring to the requirements for the window install or the requirement for investors to have a contractor perform the work?
The windows have to be installed so that they conform with the Florida building code. The city does not have their own requirements.
The former.
It can be found HERE.
Duh. Dummy me. I'm looking for "requirement for investors to have a contractor perform the work". Sorry about that.
Building code wise, your project falls under Alteration Level-1. The solid state replacement windows you buy from a FL Lowes or HD meet the state code.
It's a state requirement, specifically Florida Statute 489.103(7). It can be found HERE.
I guess it depends on your interpretation of the state's words and definitions. The FL code you cite (Contracting Exemptions) says in part:
"(9)?Any work or operation of a casual, minor, or inconsequential nature in which the aggregate contract price for labor, materials, and all other items is less than $1,000, ..."
If an average person were just doing X windows, X being a small number, and total cost of materials <$1000 or <<$1000, they may come to a different conclusion.
But I think you summed it up in your 2/22 post, #3 and #4.
(not legal advice)
@Matthew B. - I've stayed out of the free-for-all here but stumbled onto the same thing when doing some background work for my new business. What I have learned is that to get your residential contractors license (I likely don't need a general/commercial license for what I want to do) that you do need four years of experience. However, 3 of those years can be waived if you have a four year college degree. For the additional year you need verifiable "foreman" type experience. Plus of course you have pass the test, credit-worthiness, etc.
My plan is to find a licensed residential contractor (preferably a retired or retiring one) and pay them to be the man on the permits, filing notice to commence, etc. while I run, as the "foreman" my own projects for a year. When the year is up, the licensed residential contractor will have a little extra money in their pockets for permits pulled, overseeing my work (on my project - BTW which I think it complete crap as you've pointed out) and I'll have my year experience and ability to qualify for my license.
And it will be exactly that easy...yeah right. Anyway, that's my plan and all the best!
The four year degree has to be in a construction related field, correct? I don't think my business degree will help me.
@Matthew B. - Negative.
If you have three years of credits (you don't even need a degree) from an accredited college level course and one year experience as a foreman you can apply for the license.
If you have a construction related degree you only need one year of proven experience (doesn't have to be as a foreman) and you can apply for the license.
Here is the application from myfloridalicense.com
I'll see you at the "New Residential Contractor's Certification Gala Dinner" next year :) Both of us with our fancy business degrees and all!