Odd behavior from electrician?
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Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes
10yOriginally posted by @Nat C.:
Originally posted by @Doug N.:
@K. marie P. often says what I am sometimes too reticent to say... I always struggle with being too frank, thinking I should somehow be 'nicer' to the reality show contestants that often post here.
But then I wonder why they post at all, the completely hilarious ones... really, are they expecting anything more than sympathetic replies, or are they truly seeking a solution to what are clearly systemic errors in thinking and judgement? The answer is in their responses (or lack of) to the many helpful and concerned follow-up posts.
I am looking forward to that wonderful and historic day that @Nat C.posts about a moderately successful subcontractor that produces quality work at a fair price.
I wonder of there is a keyword alert for that scenario.
I appreciate there are many people that use Bigger Pockets for boasting, enhancing their ego and networking. I really have no need for this. Why on Earth would I write a post about a "moderately successful subcontractor that produces quality work at a fair price". Seriously, WTF? That kind of conversation starter would be as exciting as cabbage.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, I solely use BP for advice from the myriad of wise people who have had much more experience than me. I'm only in my 20s and have less than 10 years under my belt.
In Miami I have an AMAZING contractor and I know I will never in this life time find anyone as good. He is highly experienced, his work is meticulous, he's 100% reliable and and he is honest to a fault. Unfortunately he's only one person and can only do so much. Also he's not a licensed electrician so I cannot put him on this job.
I also had a fantastic all rounder contractor in Las Vegas for 4 years who looked after all my properties. I offered to sponsor him to come to Miami when I sold my properties there but unfortunately he has family in Vegas and doesn't want to move.
I could start writing posts about how I become a millionaire through real estate in my mid 20s but ego and boasting is NOT my style. I am a quiet, hardworking person who likes to stay in the background, drives a modest car and lives a modest lifestyle.
@nat chan From reading your posts, it does seem that you have an inordinate amount of difficulties with your projects and I think that's what some people are responding to (with varying degrees of kindness). I don't think it's fair nor helpful to just blame Miami, after all: you've written about your troubles in many other locations and I'm sure Miami has many good contractors.
It is always useful to periodically 'self-exam' one's business. I'm not sure where you're going wrong with finding contractors but you clearly are. Some of it may be due to your relative inexperience with construction matters, some may be due to your budget and choice criteria but no matter what the cause, you should re-think your methods (if for no other reason: your own sanity!).
If your Miami contractor friend is as awesome as you say, why do you not get referrals from him? Great contractors always know and use great subs. Birds of a feather always flock together.
Finally, criticism from peers can sting but try not to take it personally. Rather use it to learn and grow. I, for one, would not find it boring were you to write of a good contractor experience. I would be glad for you. Good luck!
59 Replies
- Investor · Asheville, NC · Member since 2011 · 833 posts · 499 votes10y
@Rochelle Wilkinson, when I first read that I thought you asked him if you could hold his tools until he showed up... now that might be a strategy!
@Nat C., unfortunately this seems to be all too common. I recently paid a handyman in full for a job that he didn't even complete halfway... yes, this was a terrible idea. He has since disappeared and left us in a really tough spot.
@Jay Hinrichs, I like your system. My experience with tradespeople in year one has really changed how I evaluate a deal. While I may be able to get something done for x amount, it has not been worth the headache, risk and lost time/money to do so. I would much rather pay reputable contractors and subs a "premium" in order to have a job well done.
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Andrew Davis its the different between subs that make money and contractors that are basically week to week.
Also to be fair to reputable contractors.. they also get burned by the people that hire them.. so they want a deposit to start... and paid as they go.. this is pretty common in the get it done as cheap as you can rehab business... its a dual edge sword.
- Miami Lakes, FL · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 8 votes10y
South Florida is such a tricky market...All these posts about Florida at totally spot on. Its almost a "Wild West" of the South East! I used to work in construction and rehab and the previous comments are spot on. No money upfront unless a signed contract is in place. Good luck to you in this wasteland of conmen, scammers and degenerates...there are great people down here to help and BiggerPockets is THE channel to find a good majority of them. Best wishes!
- Property Manager · Phoenix, MD · Member since 2015 · 79 posts · 60 votes10y
Originally posted by @Andrew Davis:
@Rochelle Wilkinson, when I first read that I thought you asked him if you could hold his tools until he showed up... now that might be a strategy!
@Nat C., unfortunately this seems to be all too common. I recently paid a handyman in full for a job that he didn't even complete halfway... yes, this was a terrible idea. He has since disappeared and left us in a really tough spot.
@Jay Hinrichs, I like your system. My experience with tradespeople in year one has really changed how I evaluate a deal. While I may be able to get something done for x amount, it has not been worth the headache, risk and lost time/money to do so. I would much rather pay reputable contractors and subs a "premium" in order to have a job well done.
nope he called me at almost midnight to ask ask for an advance eon a job he hadn't even started..wierd.. I was guessing he was partying and ran out of money for drugs.. so I told him dont bother showing up Monday.. BUT since then I have hired a friend of my brother in laws.. WOW I have hit the jackpot.. honest, drug free, punctual, I currently have him working here at my house.. I was just going to get new counters installed.. but he does such a great job and only charges $ 45 an hour!!! I have since had redo my family room, basement, and next he will re do my bathroom.. this guy says if he can work steady and make $ 1,000 a week he is happy. so i have kept him very busy here.. no deposits up front bills me when he is done.. and when i say i am completley happy with the job.. my question is , if you find someone this good do you share his number or keep him a secret?
- Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes10y
I never pay anything up front unless it's someone I've worked with for years. If it's someone new then I also make sure I am there when purchasing materials and I help out on the job as well. It's usually more cost effective to negotiate a fair hourly rate based on their experience than it is to have them bid but this requires a more watchful eye and established trust.
- Investor · Royal Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2013 · 162 posts · 67 votes10y
Fellow south Floridians....I have a list of contractors in my phone with "Do not use" in front of them. This is more Palm Beach county specific, but I have no problems sharing. Would love to know who TO use. I really only have one contract and one handyman at this point which is not good.
I also have a checklist of paperwork I use for bigger jobs that I can share if you are interested. Indemnification insurance requirement, contract, W-9, lien waiver, and final and unconditional.
- Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @George P.:
Originally posted by @Pat L.:
You did the right thing....he must be related to your tile guy!!!!
or her ac guy.
Or the Nevada main line guy. Or her Atlanta PM. Or the myriad of bad agents. It's like a reality tv show without a signed contract.
- Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Pat L.:
You did the right thing....he must be related to your tile guy!!!!
or her ac guy.
Or the Nevada main line guy. Or her Atlanta PM. Or the myriad of bad agents. It's like a reality tv show without a signed contract.
i could not remember all her "issues with contractors" threads, but thanks for remembering and listing them.
i am starting to think two things:
- it's either a problem with her and she should re-evaluate her line of work. beating one's head in a rock repeatedly is obviously not working.
- she is not actually an investor and just starts threads to get replies. why else would she still be repeating the same mistakes over and over?
- Lynnwood, WA · Member since 2015 · 221 posts · 157 votes10y
@K. marie P. often says what I am sometimes too reticent to say... I always struggle with being too frank, thinking I should somehow be 'nicer' to the reality show contestants that often post here.
But then I wonder why they post at all, the completely hilarious ones... really, are they expecting anything more than sympathetic replies, or are they truly seeking a solution to what are clearly systemic errors in thinking and judgement? The answer is in their responses (or lack of) to the many helpful and concerned follow-up posts.
I am looking forward to that wonderful and historic day that @Nat C.posts about a moderately successful subcontractor that produces quality work at a fair price.
I wonder of there is a keyword alert for that scenario.
- 10yMike HurneyPro MemberReal Estate Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 542 votes
- Cape Coral, FL · Member since 2008 · 469 posts · 32 votes10y
Originally posted by @James Pearson:
FYI, on the contractor side, I generally wont do less than 100% materials plus 20% of the labor upfront. I also make a profit on the materials, so you cant just write a check to the hardware store. I wont do business any other way. Generally, my business is cabinetry, so once I'm done with the building of cabinets, I collect another 50% of the labor before I do the install. This ensures me that I get paid for my time. Of course, contracts are a must and everything is in writing. Im starting to get away from showing the materials cost to customers, because most of them think the labor is too high, until they get a quote from another cabinet shop, then I get a call with a check for what I ask for. I have been burned by allowing customers to purchase their own materials from their own vendor. Never again. If I touch the materials other than on the jobsite, I make a profit from them and I should.
It does sound like you got in with a bad contractor in this situation.
Do all or most contractors charge like this? I remembered my mechanic did and when I mentioned I wanted to order my own parts online suddenly he didn't want the job because of the loss in profits from parts. So his hourly rate wasn't good enough for him?
Seems scammy to me. Why not just charge what you need for the work you do? The parts/materials are already paid for. It seems some unscrupulous fellow long ago discovered he could make more money on top of what he earned for his labor by throwing in an extra unnecessary charge and then everyone else just blindly followed suit. Or is there some logical reasoning behind this?
Suppose.... you were getting a hot oil massage, idk, just came to mind, and at the door it reads "$85/hr" but once the massage was over she bills you $100 stating there's a $15 materials charge for the hot oil. Or even if she brought it up beforehand. Seems more complicated than just charging a higher hourly rate. Or a dog walker that throws in a charge for his shoes.
Yeah, it's these guys/gals that are getting over in the public, and their competition, by charging less hourly rates while throwing in extra charges later that causes everyone else to jump on board with these complicated charging schemes to stay competitive. Where my mechanic has "$85 hourly rate" posted on his wall it should also read "plus parts PLUS shop charge on parts". Am I wrong? I'm just looking at it mostly from the consumer's pov.
- Investor · Burlington, VT · Member since 2015 · 23 posts · 5 votes10y
Originally posted by @James Pearson:
FYI, on the contractor side, I generally wont do less than 100% materials plus 20% of the labor upfront. I also make a profit on the materials, so you cant just write a check to the hardware store. I wont do business any other way. Generally, my business is cabinetry, so once I'm done with the building of cabinets, I collect another 50% of the labor before I do the install. This ensures me that I get paid for my time. Of course, contracts are a must and everything is in writing. Im starting to get away from showing the materials cost to customers, because most of them think the labor is too high, until they get a quote from another cabinet shop, then I get a call with a check for what I ask for. I have been burned by allowing customers to purchase their own materials from their own vendor. Never again. If I touch the materials other than on the jobsite, I make a profit from them and I should.
It does sound like you got in with a bad contractor in this situation.
James is dead on with how contracting should be. The most important thing on the customers end is to get quality references. Angie's list is pretty solid as well as word of mouth from people you trust.
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes10y
First the electrician wanted cash , that is a red flag , second there was no mention of a contract .
As a contractor , we always work off of signed contracts as required by Maryland state law , we ALWAYS get a deposit of 1/3 of the total cost ( also allowed by md state law) . If a customer doesnt want to give a deposit , we move on to the next customer . WHY do we get deposits? First its the consideration that makes the contract a complete agreement , second , we dont finance someones project , thats what hard money or bank loans are for. Third , there are as many or more deadbeat flippers out there trying to screw contractors . In my younger years we would do a job and then have to chase the money . That takes time and isnt profitable . Breaking down estimates by material and labor , NOT . We give a price for the completed job plain and simple contracts are very detailed . Marking up materials , OF COURSE thats good business . I have relationships with suppliers and get very good pricing , thats my benefit , not the customers . When the customer wants to supply materials , that is a big NO . Why ? when a problem happens with wrong or damaged materials , that takes time to resolve . Time is money .
Professional contracting companies are not cheap , and cheap contractors arent generally professional . I have told customers many times that its cheaper to spend more and do it right the first time than to pay to have it done over ,
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes10y
I have not read the other posts about the bad tile guy or the other bad subs but I believe the lesson here is that you get what you pay for.
If an investor tries to get the cheapest G.C. at all times they are going to run into all kinds of problems and likely spend more then if they just hired the high over head & more expensive G.C. in the 1st place.
- Sherman, TX · Member since 2015 · 37 posts · 14 votes10y
Benjamin, not all contractors are like that, but the good ones are. First thing to realize, is not all materials are the same. Second, I include profit on materials for several reasons. Time spent figuring materials, having an account in good standing with a vendor wherein I receive a discount for doing good business. Covering for jobs where I have to eat materials, and it happens to even the best of contractors. But the biggest preference is so that I get the materials I prefer to work with. There are situations where me purchasing the materials isn't the proper thing to do as well, such as granite countertops, or tile that you have to select. If I paint, I give you options on the paint, and tell you the price. I don't paint with certain box store paints. Cheaper is not better, and sometimes cheaper cost the contractor extra time.
Your mechanic is probably the same way. I used to sell truck parts. Brakes can be very different in installation, so can seals. Some materials perform better over time and maintain their look over time. And we put our name on these jobs.
The old addage you get what you paid for applies to contracting more than anything I have ever known.
- 10ySharad M.Pro MemberCarlsbad, CA · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
There are some good contractors out there but unfortunately in my case, I had to go through a LOTTTTT of bad ones before I got good one. I have several good contractors that I work with and I trust them and they trust me.
I live in California and do all my deals in Indiana so I fly back and forth and one of the reasons I decided to move to California was because I could trust my contractors and property manager. Since moving to California I have done at least 20 deals and majority of them were done without me looking at the houses ever.
My contractor wants to buy a house and he gave me $22k cash today to find him a house that he can fix up and move in with his family.
So there are good contractors out there, but you have to go through several to land on good ones and once you do, you gotta take care of them and keep them busy.
- Investor · Canton-Akron, OH · Member since 2012 · 917 posts · 477 votes10y
BUT since then I have hired a friend of my brother in laws.. WOW I have hit the jackpot.. honest, drug free, punctual, I currently have him working here at my house.. I was just going to get new counters installed.. but he does such a great job and only charges $ 45 an hour!!! I have since had redo my family room, basement, and next he will re do my bathroom.. this guy says if he can work steady and make $ 1,000 a week he is happy. so i have kept him very busy here.. no deposits up front bills me when he is done.. and when i say i am completley happy with the job.. my question is , if you find someone this good do you share his number or keep him a secret?
1,000.00 a week at 45.00 hour = about 22 hours a week ... Works about 2.5 days a week? - 10yNat C.Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votesOP
Originally posted by @Rochelle Wilkinson:
Originally posted by @Nat C.:
I met with an electrician about upgrading and updating all the electrical at my house.
He sent me the quote the next day and I agreed.
That evening he turned up at my house to collect $500 cash to buy materials.
I said I wouldn't be handing over $500 until he physically turned up with the materials to start the job. He became quite angry and said he wouldn't be spending his own money to buy materials. I said no problem, I would meet him at the supply store and pay for all the materials. He left in a vexed state. Spoke to him the next day and he said he's not doing the job because I don't trust him.
He's correct, I don't trust any contractor in South Florida.I once had a guy who was scheduled to start a job the next week call me at 11 pm on a Saturday night to ask if he could get a front of $300 and in return I could hold his tools till he started the job.. ummm no and dont bother showing up on Monday either..
That is crazy! Quite a funny story.
- 10yNat C.Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votesOP
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @George P.:
Originally posted by @Pat L.:
You did the right thing....he must be related to your tile guy!!!!
or her ac guy.
Or the Nevada main line guy. Or her Atlanta PM. Or the myriad of bad agents. It's like a reality tv show without a signed contract.
Great, another uncalled for bitchy comment from Ms K. marie P. What's new?
There's certainly nothing about a signed contract which gives you much leverage, which of course I draw up for every business relationship regardless.
- 10yNat C.Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votesOP
Originally posted by @George P.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @George P.:
Originally posted by @Pat L.:
You did the right thing....he must be related to your tile guy!!!!
or her ac guy.
Or the Nevada main line guy. Or her Atlanta PM. Or the myriad of bad agents. It's like a reality tv show without a signed contract.
i could not remember all her "issues with contractors" threads, but thanks for remembering and listing them.
i am starting to think two things:
- it's either a problem with her and she should re-evaluate her line of work. beating one's head in a rock repeatedly is obviously not working.
- she is not actually an investor and just starts threads to get replies. why else would she still be repeating the same mistakes over and over?
Can you please explain the mistake I made with the electrician?
By the way, you hit the nail on the head. I'm a fake investor who loves pretending to be a landlord.
- 10yNat C.Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votesOP
Originally posted by @Jerhmey Cobb:
South Florida is such a tricky market...All these posts about Florida at totally spot on. Its almost a "Wild West" of the South East! I used to work in construction and rehab and the previous comments are spot on. No money upfront unless a signed contract is in place. Good luck to you in this wasteland of conmen, scammers and degenerates...there are great people down here to help and BiggerPockets is THE channel to find a good majority of them. Best wishes!
Welcome to BP Jerhmey. It's good to have someone confirm what it's like here in Miami! It's funny you use the term 'Wild West' as that's precisely what I use to explain Miami too.
'A wasteland of conmen, scammers and degenerates'- spot on. If you look at the history of Miami there are a multitude of reasons for what created this environment. The Marial Boatlift in the 1980's was a mass influx of Cubans, which included many criminals. Castro sent boatloads of criminals to Miami in order to get rid of undesirables from Cuba.
- 10yNat C.Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votesOP
Originally posted by @Doug N.:
@K. marie P. often says what I am sometimes too reticent to say... I always struggle with being too frank, thinking I should somehow be 'nicer' to the reality show contestants that often post here.
But then I wonder why they post at all, the completely hilarious ones... really, are they expecting anything more than sympathetic replies, or are they truly seeking a solution to what are clearly systemic errors in thinking and judgement? The answer is in their responses (or lack of) to the many helpful and concerned follow-up posts.
I am looking forward to that wonderful and historic day that @Nat C.posts about a moderately successful subcontractor that produces quality work at a fair price.
I wonder of there is a keyword alert for that scenario.
I appreciate there are many people that use Bigger Pockets for boasting, enhancing their ego and networking. I really have no need for this. Why on Earth would I write a post about a "moderately successful subcontractor that produces quality work at a fair price". Seriously, WTF? That kind of conversation starter would be as exciting as cabbage.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, I solely use BP for advice from the myriad of wise people who have had much more experience than me. I'm only in my 20s and have less than 10 years under my belt.
In Miami I have an AMAZING contractor and I know I will never in this life time find anyone as good. He is highly experienced, his work is meticulous, he's 100% reliable and and he is honest to a fault. Unfortunately he's only one person and can only do so much. Also he's not a licensed electrician so I cannot put him on this job.
I also had a fantastic all rounder contractor in Las Vegas for 4 years who looked after all my properties. I offered to sponsor him to come to Miami when I sold my properties there but unfortunately he has family in Vegas and doesn't want to move.
I could start writing posts about how I become a millionaire through real estate in my mid 20s but ego and boasting is NOT my style. I am a quiet, hardworking person who likes to stay in the background, drives a modest car and lives a modest lifestyle.
- Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes10y
Originally posted by @Nat C.:
Originally posted by @Doug N.:
@K. marie P. often says what I am sometimes too reticent to say... I always struggle with being too frank, thinking I should somehow be 'nicer' to the reality show contestants that often post here.
But then I wonder why they post at all, the completely hilarious ones... really, are they expecting anything more than sympathetic replies, or are they truly seeking a solution to what are clearly systemic errors in thinking and judgement? The answer is in their responses (or lack of) to the many helpful and concerned follow-up posts.
I am looking forward to that wonderful and historic day that @Nat C.posts about a moderately successful subcontractor that produces quality work at a fair price.
I wonder of there is a keyword alert for that scenario.
I appreciate there are many people that use Bigger Pockets for boasting, enhancing their ego and networking. I really have no need for this. Why on Earth would I write a post about a "moderately successful subcontractor that produces quality work at a fair price". Seriously, WTF? That kind of conversation starter would be as exciting as cabbage.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, I solely use BP for advice from the myriad of wise people who have had much more experience than me. I'm only in my 20s and have less than 10 years under my belt.
In Miami I have an AMAZING contractor and I know I will never in this life time find anyone as good. He is highly experienced, his work is meticulous, he's 100% reliable and and he is honest to a fault. Unfortunately he's only one person and can only do so much. Also he's not a licensed electrician so I cannot put him on this job.
I also had a fantastic all rounder contractor in Las Vegas for 4 years who looked after all my properties. I offered to sponsor him to come to Miami when I sold my properties there but unfortunately he has family in Vegas and doesn't want to move.
I could start writing posts about how I become a millionaire through real estate in my mid 20s but ego and boasting is NOT my style. I am a quiet, hardworking person who likes to stay in the background, drives a modest car and lives a modest lifestyle.
@nat chan From reading your posts, it does seem that you have an inordinate amount of difficulties with your projects and I think that's what some people are responding to (with varying degrees of kindness). I don't think it's fair nor helpful to just blame Miami, after all: you've written about your troubles in many other locations and I'm sure Miami has many good contractors.
It is always useful to periodically 'self-exam' one's business. I'm not sure where you're going wrong with finding contractors but you clearly are. Some of it may be due to your relative inexperience with construction matters, some may be due to your budget and choice criteria but no matter what the cause, you should re-think your methods (if for no other reason: your own sanity!).
If your Miami contractor friend is as awesome as you say, why do you not get referrals from him? Great contractors always know and use great subs. Birds of a feather always flock together.
Finally, criticism from peers can sting but try not to take it personally. Rather use it to learn and grow. I, for one, would not find it boring were you to write of a good contractor experience. I would be glad for you. Good luck!
- Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes10y
@Nat C. You did the right thing on this electrician. Any licensed electrician should have $500 to start the job and a truck full of inventory to make sure he's efficient. I would never, in any city, provide a deposit for an electrician.
I've read several of your posts. I remember the house in the Pittsburgh neighborhood of Atlanta. My experience is when you buy/rehab houses in areas like this trouble comes in every form. The profits can be higher but so can be the drama.
I appreciate your candor and humility. Keep it up!
Rick
- Property Manager · Phoenix, MD · Member since 2015 · 79 posts · 60 votes10y
Originally posted by @Dell Schlabach:
BUT since then I have hired a friend of my brother in laws.. WOW I have hit the jackpot.. honest, drug free, punctual, I currently have him working here at my house.. I was just going to get new counters installed.. but he does such a great job and only charges $ 45 an hour!!! I have since had redo my family room, basement, and next he will re do my bathroom.. this guy says if he can work steady and make $ 1,000 a week he is happy. so i have kept him very busy here.. no deposits up front bills me when he is done.. and when i say i am completley happy with the job.. my question is , if you find someone this good do you share his number or keep him a secret?
1,000.00 a week at 45.00 hour = about 22 hours a week ... Works about 2.5 days a week?sorry I should clarify, he charges OTHER people $45 an hour, he charges me $25.. because I have hooked him up with soooo much work with other people but even at the $45 an hour that is still a great rate for other people and a fabulous rate for me...he works from 8 :30- 4:30 most days monday thru friday
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