Air Conditioning options

Air Conditioning options

Jennifer T.Pro Member
Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes

I have just had a big blow to morale. I have a SFH with 4 bedrooms and the tenant is on Section 8 in New Orleans, LA. The cooling part of the HVAC system totally died about a year ago (HVAC can still heat house). I personally cannot stand the temperamental and expensive monster called HVAC. I refused to replace the system plus, for whatever reason, those systems seem to be much more expensive in my area compared to what I hear for other areas. I haven't gotten estimates for this house, but I did for an 800 sq. ft. unit a couple years ago and it was about $4K for a basic unit (including installation). I suspect this house would be more in the $6K range for a basic unit that is large enough.

So, what I did instead, was put window units in the main living room and one in each bedroom.  Most of them also heat.  I just had the Sec. 8 inspection for that unit and two of them need to come out for egress reasons.

Technically, I don't need to provide a/c.  But really, that tenant would move out if I don't find a solution and I wouldn't blame her. 

We thought about putting the units into the wall, but the house is made of bricks and we'd have to remove some of the exterior bricks to make that happen.  I don't want to do that because it would be bad for resale.

I know there are those split systems, but those seem pretty spendy.  Especially since I would have to get one for each room.

I'm also considering one of those portable air conditioners, but they still need to vent outside.  In the case of a fire, would one of those vents be easy to rip out of the window and escape from?  Those still might not be allowed with HANO, I've been trying to check on that.

Any other ideas, wise folks from BP?

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Greg ScottPro Member
Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
8y

My personal opinion is that the best strategy for a 4 bedroom house is simply to bite the bullet and replace the system.  It will be the best decision for resale value, tenant retention, and likely energy usage.   Any other solution just saves up-front costs but is more painful down the road.

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  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    8y

    My personal opinion is that the best strategy for a 4 bedroom house is simply to bite the bullet and replace the system.  It will be the best decision for resale value, tenant retention, and likely energy usage.   Any other solution just saves up-front costs but is more painful down the road.

  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    8y

    @Greg Scott, I should have mentioned that window units are really common in my city.  Heck, my personal duplex in a much nicer neighborhood has window units for both my side and the tenant side (no egress issues).   They're great and much better from a maintenance perspective.  This property is in a safe, but lower income neighborhood.  HVAC vs. window wouldn't make much/any difference for the rental amount.  At best, there might be a few tenants it would be a deal-breaker for.  The house, even in perfect condition and with a working HVAC, is probably only worth about $70K.

    Resale is the best reason I can think of for "maybe" biting the bullet.  I definitely hear your words!  Though I'd rather sell it for a lower price then fix and maintain the HVAC, but a non-working HVAC could deter buyers.  I actually plan to sell this house whenever this tenant moves out.   I'll broach the "what if's" with my REA.

  • Real Estate Junkie · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2008 · 274 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    I have a friend that does HVAC. If you aren't in a hurry he can help you out as a side job after he gets off the company clock. It can make a pretty big difference when you are able to get around the company markup. If you would like to talk to him about pricing feel free to message me and I will hook you guys up.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Mcminnville, OR · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    8y
    The biggest issue with window units is that they can leak condensation indoors. How much are you willing to spend on new carpet, window seals, new hardwood, dry wall to avoid replacing the forced air system? If your system still heats but doesn’t cool, then it sounds like you have either a gas furnace with ac or a heat pump running off heat strips. If it’s the former, replacing the ac and coil should be in the $5k range. Replacing a heat pump and air handler is significantly more expensive.
  • Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes
    8y

    @Jennifer T.

    If this was your house, what you do? I bet replace it.  Why is it even a debate.  Bite the bullet and replace the unit.  Window units are energy hogs and costing your tenant money that could force them to be late on rent.  Even if you spend $8k on a unit and it last for 20 years you only spent $400 a year on the unit or $33 a month.  This is why you budget and create a reserve funds.

  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Noah Jones:

    The biggest issue with window units is that they can leak condensation indoors. How much are you willing to spend on new carpet, window seals, new hardwood, dry wall to avoid replacing the forced air system? If your system still heats but doesn’t cool, then it sounds like you have either a gas furnace with ac or a heat pump running off heat strips. If it’s the former, replacing the ac and coil should be in the $5k range. Replacing a heat pump and air handler is significantly more expensive.

     I've never had a problem with one leaking condensation on the inside.  They're installed slightly angled so the condensation goes to the outside.  But thanks for making that point!  Something to consider and keep my eye on when I do my own unit inspections.

    Before the a/c died completely, I needed to make numerous repairs to that HVAC in the first 18 months I owned the house.  I bought it 3 years ago.  The previous owner had bought some no-name system that nobody recognized and it was hard to get parts for.

    The HVAC person told me it would be something like $2300 to fix it, but the type of Freon that system used was being phased out and no longer available in the next couple years (at that time).  I think the coils needed to be replaced.  So that would have definitely been throwing good money after bad!

    I suspect the whole unit is pretty old and it is just a matter of time before the heat part goes out also.  This house flooded in Katrina (2005), but I think it sat vacant for a few years because the first permits were pulled in 2009.  This same tenant moved into it 2010.  So, my educated guess, is the current HVAC was installed in 2009 or 2010.

    As an aside, what a small world!  My husband grew up in McMinnville, OR.

  • Corby GoadeBusiness Member
    Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Hi Jennifer- if you rented the units to the tenants with AC, then the expectation is that you provide AC. It's up to you what the best and most economical way to do that would be, but I'd definitely make sure they have it. If section 8 won't allow window units, bite the bullet and choose one of the other options. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 553 posts · 314 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Noah Jones:

    The biggest issue with window units is that they can leak condensation indoors. How much are you willing to spend on new carpet, window seals, new hardwood, dry wall to avoid replacing the forced air system? If your system still heats but doesn’t cool, then it sounds like you have either a gas furnace with ac or a heat pump running off heat strips. If it’s the former, replacing the ac and coil should be in the $5k range. Replacing a heat pump and air handler is significantly more expensive.

     I've been replacing 10 SEER heat pumps with 16 SEER heat pumps for $7,000. I replace everything so I can get the higher efficiency for my tenants.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Mcminnville, OR · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    8y

    Check energystar.gov. I think you’re eligible for some federal tax credits for the upgrades. 

  • Investor · Union, NJ · Member since 2011 · 838 posts · 295 votes
    8y

    You mentioned Section 8 won't allow window AC for Egress but that would mean there is only 1 window per room?? I would think if a bedroom had 2 windows and one was occupied by an AC the open window could be used for egress?

    What am I missing?

    Chris

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Mcminnville, OR · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    8y
  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jim Adrian:

    @Jennifer T.

    If this was your house, what you do? I bet replace it.  Why is it even a debate.  Bite the bullet and replace the unit.  Window units are energy hogs and costing your tenant money that could force them to be late on rent.  Even if you spend $8k on a unit and it last for 20 years you only spent $400 a year on the unit or $33 a month.  This is why you budget and create a reserve funds.

    Actually, my own house does have window units.  Though a different situation.  My house was built 100 years ago and has never had central, so no ductwork either.  The last place I lived before buying my house (I was a tenant) also had window units.

    Although, overall, central is more energy efficient than window units.  It seems like a lot of that efficiency is lost because the whole house is cooled/heated (without buying one of those more expensive zoned system ones).  Whereas, with a window unit when everyone is awake, only 1-2 of them might be running at a time.  I know in my house, we almost always only have one running.

    To be fair, it's possible I'm being colored by my own very poor experiences with HVAC.  I only have four properties.  Two of them have not had an HVAC since I've owned them (including my house).  One of my duplexes I put in a new unit about 1-2 years ago and haven't had a problem.  The other unit was 2 years old when I bought the house.  I spent $800 the first summer on repairs.

    This house has an HVAC unit that is less than 10 years old.  And is already kaput.  Which was after I put about $700 in repairs over the first 18 months I owned the house.

    So, that's been my experience, albeit a green one.  That HVACs don't live anywhere near 20 years and are expensive to maintain, on top of that.  Maybe I just had bad luck.  I do keep a healthy reserve fund and have the money to replace it, it's more that they haven't made monetary sense to me.  Resale value is the one piece I'll look into that might be worth it.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Mcminnville, OR · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jennifer T.:
    Originally posted by @Noah Jones:

    The biggest issue with window units is that they can leak condensation indoors. How much are you willing to spend on new carpet, window seals, new hardwood, dry wall to avoid replacing the forced air system? If your system still heats but doesn’t cool, then it sounds like you have either a gas furnace with ac or a heat pump running off heat strips. If it’s the former, replacing the ac and coil should be in the $5k range. Replacing a heat pump and air handler is significantly more expensive.

     I've never had a problem with one leaking condensation on the inside.  They're installed slightly angled so the condensation goes to the outside.  But thanks for making that point!  Something to consider and keep my eye on when I do my own unit inspections.

    Before the a/c died completely, I needed to make numerous repairs to that HVAC in the first 18 months I owned the house.  I bought it 3 years ago.  The previous owner had bought some no-name system that nobody recognized and it was hard to get parts for.

    The HVAC person told me it would be something like $2300 to fix it, but the type of Freon that system used was being phased out and no longer available in the next couple years (at that time).  I think the coils needed to be replaced.  So that would have definitely been throwing good money after bad!

    I suspect the whole unit is pretty old and it is just a matter of time before the heat part goes out also.  This house flooded in Katrina (2005), but I think it sat vacant for a few years because the first permits were pulled in 2009.  This same tenant moved into it 2010.  So, my educated guess, is the current HVAC was installed in 2009 or 2010.

    As an aside, what a small world!  My husband grew up in McMinnville, OR.

     Hey small world! Love it out here. Yours must be an r22 System. EPA put a moratorium on it for January 2020. Nasty stuff. I think the federal tax credit for energy star rated equipment is $300 and you get a write off. 

  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Chris Masons:

    You mentioned Section 8 won't allow window AC for Egress but that would mean there is only 1 window per room?? I would think if a bedroom had 2 windows and one was occupied by an AC the open window could be used for egress?

    What am I missing?

    Chris

    Yes, two of the bedrooms only have one window.  It's a decent sized window for a standard 10'x10' bedroom, but it's just one.  One bedroom is a little larger and on the corner.  So it has two windows and the window unit for that bedroom is allowed.  The 4th bedroom is the master and actually has a door to the side yard.  So that one is fine also.

  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Corby Goade:

    Hi Jennifer- if you rented the units to the tenants with AC, then the expectation is that you provide AC. It's up to you what the best and most economical way to do that would be, but I'd definitely make sure they have it. If section 8 won't allow window units, bite the bullet and choose one of the other options. 

    Definitely agree!  I need to provide some kind of a/c.  Louisiana is a miserable, miserable place in the summer.  I was feeling out if there is something I hadn't thought of. 

  • Realtor · Oakland, CA and a Real Estate Investor with Multi-Family Units and a Self Storage Facility · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Jennifer T.

    Have you thought about what the potential benefit would be if the tenant moved out? I have three rentals that have Section 8 tenants in them and I listen quite a bit to a gentleman on YouTube is Section8Bible.

    Essentially he says anything that is NOT necessary he takes out of the unit. If the tenant moves out, as you suspect they will, then you don't need to even replace that HVAC.

    If you're worried about the tenant moving out.....I'm sure you will be able to move another one in to your rental that won't even know about the HVAC.

    Your Caveat of course is that you are doing bad with your current tenant. Are you able to raise the rent some to help you cover those costs? $6,000 is a lot.      

  • Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes
    8y

    @Jennifer T.

    I know the salt air environment is hard things and I wonder if this is reducing the life expectancy?  Its always worth getting a yearly service contract to have the systems cleaned in spring and fall.  Usually cost around $175 in my area and this will extend the life of the equipment. They check Freon levels and keeps the furnace running in the winter. Don't buy the cheap builder grade models as you pay for what you get.  Look at going a few steps above builder grade.  Depending what type of system you have, you may consider a heat pump due to your warm winters and more cooling days in the year.  Down side they cost more but more efficient to run.

    Keeping an entire house at a constant temp is cheaper and easier on your equipment believe it or not.  Big temp changes of 4 degrees or more makes the equipment run harder and longer.  I didn't believe it until my brother, a mechanical engineer, showed me the energy modeling results.

  • Real Estate Investor · Elkhart, IN · Member since 2014 · 119 posts · 50 votes
    8y

    Honestly, bit the bullet, help your property and your tenant and put in a proper A/C unit.  Remember the mentality of your tenant is a reflection of the property.  Treat your property like crap and that you don't care, your tenant will have the same mentality about your property and treat it like crap.

  • Real Estate Consultant · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 8 votes
    8y

    @Jennifer T.

    Regardless of strategy/equipment you choose, you should check out the Energy Smart New Orleans program. They have rebates available for window units, central AC replacement, central AC tune-ups. HVAC is definitely more expensive in New Orleans than other regions, but can still be had for a reasonable price with some digging. The mini-split system will be your priciest option and has a decent amount of maintenance to keep it running at peak efficiency, but has lowest cost of operation. 

    https://www.energysmartnola.info/home-owners

    You can find contractors that participate in the program on the website. On a central AC, one of the most important tests to be sure your contractor performs is a micron test to ensure the moisture in the refrigerant lines is removed. More here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLuS0_6i9GI. The video is of a ductless unit, but the same principles apply to a standard central AC. A proper tune-up or commissioning will save you headaches down the road and is worth the upfront effort of doing it right. As with anything, there is speed, quality, and price, but we only get to pick 2.

    PM me if you have any other questions on contractors or your options. I used to do Quality Assurance inspections for energy efficiency improvements in the city and am happy to help.

  • Blue Springs, MO · Member since 2015 · 481 posts · 313 votes
    8y

    Disclaimer: I am not a professional HVAC person.  I have fixed the ones on my own residence and bought a couple of complete systems before.

    The furnace, inside air conditioner coil (A-coil), and outside air conditioner should all have stickers on them somewhere that give a model and serial number.  The stickers are usually on the outside of the A-coil and outside unit, and on the inside of the furnace - take the front panels off like you were going to change the filter to see it.  Usually there is a number or two in the serial number that tells you the year the unit was built - Google the brand, like, "Lennox serial numbers" or "Trane serial numbers" or similar to see how to read it.  Taking a photo of the sticker for later reference sometimes works, but zoom into the photo right after you take it and make sure you can read everything... the furnace sticker is sometimes in a dark corner and the outside sticker sometimes gets faded in the sun.  This doesn't immediately affect anything, but if the units turn out to be older than you think, maybe that will help you make a decision.

    The model number will also usually tell you the capacity of the furnace (in BTU/hr) and the air conditioner (sometimes tons, sometimes BTU/hr).  You may have to Google to learn how to read the model number - for instance, a 60,000 BTU furnace might have "060" or "06" in the model number at a certain spot.  For that size house in New Orleans, you might have a 60,000 or 80,000 BTU/hr furnace.  I am less sure about the air conditioner - 3 tons or 36,000 BTU/hr maybe?  Knowing the capacity will help an HVAC company give you a ballpark estimate for the equipment.  If you're taking photos, also stand back a bit from the furnace and take a photo of the whole thing, including the ducts going in and out.  This will tell an HVAC company if the furnace flows up, down, sideways, or what.  They have furnaces for all of those setups but they need to know which one to bid.

    The air conditioner stickers will also tell you what refrigerant (Freon) they use.  R-22 was the old standard that is going away, R-410A is probably the current standard.  This basically tells you if your previous service tech was telling tales or not.

    It is possible to replace just the air conditioner if you want (the outside part and the coil above the furnace).  The HVAC salescritter will probably try to talk you into replacing the whole thing, but you don't have to.

    The houses I have lived in and owned, in Missouri and Oklahoma, have had Lennox, Carrier, and Trane systems in them, and they have all seemed to work OK.  The Carrier A/C on one of those houses had the same Freon in it from the day it was installed in about 1969 until the day it was replaced in about 1995.  It still worked, but the owner wanted to replace the 30-year-old Lennox furnace and get a more efficient A/C at the same time.  The Freon system is made up of copper tubes that are soldered together into a sealed system when the A/C is installed - if the installer puts the right amount of Freon in at the beginning, it stays there for the life of the system.  It's not like a car radiator, where some of the coolant can evaporate out over time.

    The Trane system I had installed at my residence was really slick - the installer put a specified amount of Freon in it by hand, plugged an electric valve on his Freon bottle into the outside A/C unit, and pushed a "fill yourself up" button on the outside A/C unit.  The A/C opened the valve and ran itself until it had as much Freon as it wanted, closed the valve, and blinked an LED to tell the installer to unplug his bottle.  (The tech was also watching it with the pressure gauges they usually use, and he commented that it closed the valve right at the pressure he was expecting.)

    The maintenance things I have had to do with them include: replacing the igniter on a gas furnace (about every 6-10 years, $30 for the part), replacing the run capacitor on the outside unit (once in about 15 years, about $30 for the part), replacing a fuse (once in about 10 years, about $5 for the fuse).  For a tech to do these things, it would have been probably $100 for the truck roll each time, and $50, $50, and $10 for the parts, respectively.

    Every year or two, I also cut the power to the outside A/C unit and hose out the coils with a garden hose.  They get dirt, cottonwood seeds, and other junk in them, which makes them less efficient.  I let it dry for a few hours and then turn the power back on.

    I also change the filters.  The $1 fiberglass filters are good for a month and the $3 pleated ones are good for 2 or 3 months.  (Try to find a local store that sells a box of 10 or 12 filters, if you can - cheaper that way.)  If the tenant has cats or dogs, use the pleated ones and change them every 1 or 2 months.

    @Andy Gostisha 's advice about checking for rebates and deals is right on the money.  It looks like Entergy is both the electric and the gas company, but if not, make sure to check with the gas company too if you have a gas furnace.  Note that sometimes for the rebates, you have to have someone check the old system first - either testing its performance or looking at the model numbers - in order to get the rebate.

    I hope this helps!

  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Brian Garlington:

    @Jennifer T.

    Have you thought about what the potential benefit would be if the tenant moved out? I have three rentals that have Section 8 tenants in them and I listen quite a bit to a gentleman on YouTube is Section8Bible.

    Essentially he says anything that is NOT necessary he takes out of the unit. If the tenant moves out, as you suspect they will, then you don't need to even replace that HVAC.

    If you're worried about the tenant moving out.....I'm sure you will be able to move another one in to your rental that won't even know about the HVAC.

    Your Caveat of course is that you are doing bad with your current tenant. Are you able to raise the rent some to help you cover those costs? $6,000 is a lot.      

    Actually, there have been window units in this house for the last year.  The tenant is not upset about them.  The S8 inspector said I needed to take two of the window units out of two of the bedrooms, because of egress issues.  Whether for this tenant or another one, I need to figure something out to get some kind of a/c to those rooms.

    I looked at portable a/c units over the weekend and those vents can easily be pulled out of a window in seconds, in the case of a fire.

    HVAC vs. window units doesn't make much difference for the rents in this area so, hence, S8 doesn't pay more for HVAC either.

    Which is also some of the conundrum.  This isn't a $300+K house...and even many of those houses in NOLA have window units, lol.  I realize they aren't common in most parts of the US as a primary heating/cooling system, but they are here.  This particular house is $70K, at best.  Maybe a few thou less than that without a fully working HVAC.  Which is why I'm having a hard time justifying the cost of a new HVAC.  Though I do still need to talk to my agent about resale value, to make sure my numbers are correct. 

    Thanks also to @Matt R. and @Andy Gotisha.  Yes, Entergy is both the gas and energy company for that area and it's always worthwhile to look at potential rebates.  You never know when that can be the tipping point.  As an aside, that is exactly why I have solar panels on my own home, lol.

    According to my husband, the whole HVAC system would need to be replaced because the a/c part of it is the old R-22.  It can't be done to just replace all the a/c equipment.  He also said it wouldn't make a lot of sense, since the heating portion is the much less expensive part of an HVAC system anyway.

  • Investor · Prairieville, LA · Member since 2015 · 311 posts · 424 votes
    8y

    @Jennifer T.

    Do you know what part failed on the outside unit?  If it is the compressor, then yes you may have trouble locating that part because of the R-22 phase out.  However, the rest of the parts on a condensing unit i.e. fan motor, contactor, capacitor, wiring, etc. are universal.  Therefore, those parts can be swapped out.  Even a hard to start compressor can be given a hard start kit.

    I completely understand using window units in certain 100 year old houses.  Definitely hard to retrofit. When I was in the Upper West side of NY, guess what I saw hanging out of the windows of 5M$ condos?  Window units.

  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    8y

    @David S., I'm pretty sure it was the compressor.  Definitely one of the major components.  Before the a/c part totally conked out, the HVAC repair company I used had trouble finding most of the parts for other repairs I had done.  For example, at one point, the fan needed to be replaced.  That part was found easily, but the HOUSING unit for it needed to be special ordered. 

    It's been a real special snowflake HVAC system.  I don't remember the name, but I'm assuming it was some cheaper, low quality off brand that the previous owner had purchased.  One of the repair people had never even heard of the company and the other one said the name vaguely sounded familiar. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Edison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 753 posts · 565 votes
    8y
    I would get a few quotes to find out what a repair versus a full replacement of your system will actually cost. I would also get a quote for split/ductless units. If the cost is too high for your budget I would sell it.
  • Birmingham, AL · Member since 2015 · 6 posts · 8 votes
    8y

    Sounds like you might just need freon in your system and it cost about 30 to 75 a pound. The average unit that size only going to need about 4 pounds.  And if you do need a new unit a new unit cost about $2000 a ton and most 3 bedrooms with 1500 sqft to about 2500 sqft only need 3 ton units.  Knowing New Orleans a 4 bedroom can have anywhere from 800 sqft on up so if you do decide to replace the unit and need a good contractor inbox me and i will give you my guys number. 

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