Window replacement, what do you do?

Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

I have 18 windows to replace in the next few days. To keep my interest up and to keep myself accountable, I'm starting this thread. I am a self-managing DIY landlord specializing in 70-100 year old SFR properties in my city and its near suburbs. How do you handle window problems in your properties? Do you contract it out to a specialized window-replacement company, hire a handyman, or DIY it? Why? What kind of properties have you changed windows for? Do you prefer to fix or improve the existing windows?

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Jaysen Medhurst

Rental Property Investor · Greenwich, CT · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

Why are you replacing the windows, @Jim K.? Unless they have failed in some way (broken glass, rotted frames, etc.) it's almost never worth replacing them. The payback period is like 20+ years. If it's a matter of drafts and energy efficiency, consider storm windows.

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Jaysen Medhurst
Rental Property Investor · Greenwich, CT · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y
Why are you replacing the windows, @Jim K.? Unless they have failed in some way (broken glass, rotted frames, etc.) it's almost never worth replacing them. The payback period is like 20+ years. If it's a matter of drafts and energy efficiency, consider storm windows.
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Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Jaysen Medhurst:
Why are you replacing the windows, @Jim K.? Unless they have failed in some way (broken glass, rotted frames, etc.) it's almost never worth replacing them. The payback period is like 20+ years. If it's a matter of drafts and energy efficiency, consider storm windows.

These windows are for a duplex I paid $45K for in what I would call a C- class urban neighborhood. How much do you think I'm paying to replace each window, to require a payback period of 20 years? How much do you think it would cost to install 18 storm windows in frames that were never designed to house storm windows?

To be clear, from 1987 to 1997, my family lived in a 100-year-old farmhouse in upstate New York and we would switch out the screens for storm windows every winter, and back again every spring.

This duplex is in southwestern PA, with considerably milder winters. Hence, the windows were never designed for storm windows. They are simple double-hung sash windows with weight pockets and pulleys.
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Jason Nordwall
Hendersonville, TN · Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 8 votes
6y
@Jim K. I think what @Jaysen Medhurst is saying is that ROI on window replacement is generally 20+ years. New windows will cut your energy bills a little, and they may make your property look better, but there are generally better ways to spend the money (things that will better increase your properties value). Storm windows may be a cheaper way to get the same benefit if all you are looking for is energy efficiency improvements. Hope this helps.
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Kevin Sobilo
Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
6y
@Jim K., if I'm rehabbing a house I will often upgrade windows because my end goal is a nice B class property.
I would replace them myself. If I was doing a bunch like you are I would probably have a handyman or laborer help me. I would let them remove the old windows and prep the opening etc and help me somewhat with the install. I enjoy doing some hands-on work and I would want to make sure they are installed right.
For a basic replacement window I am probably looking around $150 for each window, plus small misc supplies like spray foam, shims, an caulk.
Like you I grew up in upstate NY (up on Lake Erie) and I remember back in the early 1980s swapping out old wooden screens and storm windows from the out on my parents circa 1900 victorian home.
Also like you I am doing BRRRR in Northeast PA and have been focusing on older small single family homes in largely C class areas as well. A lot of old coal miner houses in my area.
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Parker Eberhard
Contractor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2019 · 339 posts · 325 votes
6y
@Jim K. The wood double hung that you described (I assume they are original) are better than 99% of the windows that you will be able to replace them with. They were originally design and built to be repaired. You can have them re-glazed and re-weather stripped if need be, as well as have storm windows added to them.
If you want to replace the windows in the same location, I would look at doing a replacement sash product that doesn’t require a whole new frame, water proofing, and siding / casing work.
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Pat L.
Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
6y
I tear them all out & replace with whatever I can get at Lowes for $35-$50. They are usually Pellas. In the majority of our buildings I can expand or reduce the frame size because most of our buildings are frame/vinyl siding. My guy works for $12/hr & does great work.

He just did this work for $120 to satisfy an insurance requirement. Window was a $35 Pella that we threw in.

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Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
I really gotta ask, people, before I get in front of a computer and respond individually to these contributions, where would these storm windows go on the outside of these windows? Clearly, that would be a custom carpentry job here. And how much would you estimate the cost per window of such custom-built storm windows might further impoverish me?

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Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Kevin Sobilo:
@Jim K., if I'm rehabbing a house I will often upgrade windows because my end goal is a nice B class property.
I would replace them myself. If I was doing a bunch like you are I would probably have a handyman or laborer help me. I would let them remove the old windows and prep the opening etc and help me somewhat with the install. I enjoy doing some hands-on work and I would want to make sure they are installed right.
For a basic replacement window I am probably looking around $150 for each window, plus small misc supplies like spray foam, shims, an caulk.
Like you I grew up in upstate NY (up on Lake Erie) and I remember back in the early 1980s swapping out old wooden screens and storm windows from the out on my parents circa 1900 victorian home.
Also like you I am doing BRRRR in Northeast PA and have been focusing on older small single family homes in largely C class areas as well. A lot of old coal miner houses in my area.

Thanks for commenting, Kevin, it's nice to get a local response by someone who knows what he's talking about in this area. This is neither a coal miner nor a steelworker house. This duplex was built for an heiress in 1923, when the population density of Homestead, PA, just down the road, was the same as Manhattan's today. It was remodeled and sold in 1945. The over-under apartments are 2bd/1bth 1700 ft2. There is a full basement my wife uses as her pottery studio, so the whole structure is over 5000 ft2. Back in the 1950s, they had a wedding in the upstairs apartment. This was luxury living. When I got it, it had been run into the ground by the idiot second generation of the family that bought it in 1945. The deferred maintenance on this place has been extraordinary.
Actual materials costs per each the four windows shown in this picture above are $187.50 window, $5.38 spray foam, $4.83 silicone caulk, maybe 50 cents for cedar shims (Home Depot). HD sells significantly better replacement windows than Lowes, IMO. The Andersen American Craftsmen 70 Series beats out every other DIY vinyl window for quality available in my area, that's what I'll be using here.
I'm sure I'll be touching back on the "installed right" later in the thread, because you're absolutely correct. After doing this enough, I've lost all faith in "professional installation" when it comes to window companies trying to sell me pretty much the same window with installation for $500 and up.
There are about 20 windows per apartment and 10 in the basement. The entire western and southern walls of both apartments were "professionally" replaced sometime in, I suspect, the early 1990s. Two more were replaced in the upstairs apartment for a total of 12 replaced windows upstairs and only 7 replacements downstairs. Just one window had been replaced in the basement.

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Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Pat L.:
I tear them all out & replace with whatever I can get at Lowes for $35-$50. They are usually Pellas. In the majority of our buildings I can expand or reduce the frame size because most of our buildings are frame/vinyl siding. My guy works for $12/hr & does great work.

He just did this work for $120 to satisfy an insurance requirement. Window was a $35 Pella that we threw in.

If I could find me a $12/hour handyman down here, Pat, I'm pretty sure it would double my net worth. I usually can't get Pella in that size that cheap down here, even buying from the Lowes pro desk. I do my best to buy brick veneer down here with the older properties, which is another reason why I like HD's Series 70 replacement windows versus Pella.
VERY NICE and a Modernist reno nightmare solved cheap, but then again, you of all people have certainly paid your dues and earned it.
1 Reply
Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Parker Eberhard:
@Jim K. The wood double hung that you described (I assume they are original) are better than 99% of the windows that you will be able to replace them with. They were originally design and built to be repaired. You can have them re-glazed and re-weather stripped if need be, as well as have storm windows added to them.
If you want to replace the windows in the same location, I would look at doing a replacement sash product that doesn’t require a whole new frame, water proofing, and siding / casing work.

Parker, as I mentioned before, I was raised in a 100-year-old farmhouse in upstate New York. This place was hot-water heated and the original coal boiler was still in place in the full basement, just with a gas conversion kit added and the coal room filled and bricked off in the fieldstone basement. There were storm windows, and since this was Horseheads, New York, there was also howling wind that cracked the storm windows.
I learned how to use weatherstripping, window glazing, and glazier's pins as a 9th grader. My Dad taught me more than enough basic woodworking to make a replacement sash. I could probably take apart these single-pane old windows and handle restoring every wooden component with new wood myself, replace the pulleys and rope, bring the windows back to what they were originally. But a new vinyl window in a buck, double hung, tilt-out double panes filled with argon and E-coated, comes in at $189 for the largest window I have to replace. And I get to insulate and seal off the large sash channels/weight pockets.
You've seen the exterior of the windows. Can you really put in a storm window there?
This is a duplex I bought in a C- neighborhood for $45K. The neighborhood was specifically chosen because I was certain it would appreciate, and it has not disappointed. At current market prices, thus duplex would probably be worth $150K max, fully renovated. But not more. Can you see the value of doing the kind of extensive custom work you're really talking about? I can't. About $200 per window and two hours of work to solve my troubles? Sure.
And I haven't even started to talk about the basement windows.

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Jason Turgeon
Realtor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 244 posts · 275 votes
6y
I'm a fan of saving the old windows whenever possible. Sometimes they're so far gone that it doesn't make sense. But replacing them at $200 a pop plus labor just gives you an ugly vinyl window that will need to be thrown away and replaced in 10-25 years. The windows in your pictures don't strike me as especially bad. The trim needs paint, sure, but they aren't rotting out. Put some weatherstripping in, paint them, maybe replace a couple of weight cords if those are broken, and call it a day.
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Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
OK, clearly we need more pics!
This property is hot-water heated and there is no A/C. It is at the top of a hill and it can be cooled very nicely in the evenings by opening up some of these forty-some windows. Heating costs in the winter months come out to $500-$600 a month. Adding ugly practical double-paned vinyl windows and sealing up the big old cavities between the groups of two, three, and four windows helps a great deal.
My wife.works down in the basement, Do you really think I should leave those windows as is?
1 Reply
Clifford Paul
Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 483 posts · 956 votes
6y
The only time I replace old windows is if I'm doing new siding. I love old windows and have become really good at rebuilding them. I got my cost down to about $15 a window. YouTube has some great videos on how to rebuild them and all the parts are still available.
2 Reply
Preston Quinn
Rental Property Investor · Lynchburg, VA · Member since 2018 · 116 posts · 73 votes
6y
@Jim K.
I did siding and windows for a while when I was starting out my working career. You should be able to buy replacement vinyl windows for 150-165 for a double hung white vinyl window. I normally put them in myself, I can bet money that you can figure it out with your back ground. Then I pay a siding guy to come wrap the outside trim. I normally have about $25/window for him to wrap them. Caulk the inside and you’re good to go.
A lot of people put windows in from the inside, I personally don’t like that method. You risk doing damage to interior trim and drywall/plaster. I prefer to replace from the outside where you have room for some errors so you can cover with trim coil if it happens.
If you want advice on how to measure let me know. I’d be more than willing to help you remotely. This is extremely easy bud. I replace windows in every house I buy. Adds a lot of value and helps the tenant out.
0 Reply
Theresa HarrisPro Member
Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
6y
@Jim K. How is the progress? I've only replaced a few windows on my rentals. One had a broken seal and was original to the home (1970), the other three were single pane glass and when we went to put them in discovered rot. We had to remove the entire 'false bay window' and luckily the three windows still fit once the wall was flat.
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Matt M.
Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y
@Jim K.
I didn’t read thru all this, but did you buy the windows yet?
Fyi- I am an authorized dealer of Crystal Windows. Been using them for 12 years and they are great windows.
1 Reply
Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
@Preston Quinn
Preston, I've been changing out windows in my properties for as long as I've had rentals -- this is far from my first project. Thanks for the offer, and yeah, I know exactly how easy it is. But I'm glad you mentioned exterior window wrapping. I am not a big fan of the practice at all in long-term buy-and-hold properties.
There's very little guarantee that the wrapping and caulking will be done well enough in the first place to really keep out moisture over the long-term. If a job is done poorly, the trim continues to rot while the wrapping hides the damage. In the brick-veneer buildings that I typically buy, there's an air insulation gap between the exterior boards covering of the studs and the bricks. If the trim fails, water can get in there and start damaging the hangers that connect the bricks to the wall of the property. Bricks start to fail around the windows and sooner or later the whole wall starts bowing out.
It's related to Pittsburgh and the high precipitation of the area as well as the high number of old quality brick in the area, but I suspect other people have similar concerns. If you need to hide unsightly trim or if the trim is really failing, I feel it's best to replace with PVC.
I actually have a photograph of this somewhere...let me look around and post it when I find it.
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Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Matt M.:
@Jim K.
I didn’t read thru all this, but did you buy the windows yet?
Fyi- I am an authorized dealer of Crystal Windows. Been using them for 12 years and they are great windows.

Ugh, the order's in, Matt. I'll come to you next time. Thanks.

1 Reply
Matt M.
Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y
Jim, I’m sure they can deliver right to you. Let me quote next time
2 Reply
Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:
@Jim K. How is the progress? I've only replaced a few windows on my rentals. One had a broken seal and was original to the home (1970), the other three were single pane glass and when we went to put them in discovered rot. We had to remove the entire 'false bay window' and luckily the three windows still fit once the wall was flat.

Well, so far on this duplex I've replaced 14 windows, the 18 is actually the second phase. The main window size on this duplex is 28x58 in., and I've put in Home Depot's American Craftsmen 70 series windows throughout. I also had to replace two windows that had been previously replaced and failed. The "professional installers" who handled that window replacement job were both incapable of doing trim work and never opened the sash pockets to remove the weights and insulate the cavities.
Considering what window installers charge for a pretty simple job that they sell a lot of baloney about, this is right up there with the best-paid handyman work I've ever done for myself.

1 Reply
Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Matt M.:
Jim, I’m sure they can deliver right to you. Let me quote next time

Will definitely do that, Matt. Thanks.

0 Reply
Al Pat
Rental Property Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2016 · 325 posts · 253 votes
6y
@Jim K. It would cost about $200 to $300 per window for installation. Not sure how much the storm windows will cost. I generally use American Craftsman replacement series windows from Home Depot and it’s about $108 to $149 a piece depending on a size.
0 Reply
Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Al Pat:
@Jim K. It would cost about $200 to $300 per window for installation. Not sure how much the storm windows will cost. I generally use American Craftsman replacement series windows from Home Depot and it’s about $108 to $149 a piece depending on a size.

Good to know we agree completely.

0 Reply
Anthony Rosa
Rental Property Investor · New York City · Member since 2019 · 703 posts · 538 votes
6y
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Parker Eberhard:
@Jim K. The wood double hung that you described (I assume they are original) are better than 99% of the windows that you will be able to replace them with. They were originally design and built to be repaired. You can have them re-glazed and re-weather stripped if need be, as well as have storm windows added to them.
If you want to replace the windows in the same location, I would look at doing a replacement sash product that doesn’t require a whole new frame, water proofing, and siding / casing work.

Parker, as I mentioned before, I was raised in a 100-year-old farmhouse in upstate New York. This place was hot-water heated and the original coal boiler was still in place in the full basement, just with a gas conversion kit added and the coal room filled and bricked off in the fieldstone basement. There were storm windows, and since this was Horseheads, New York, there was also howling wind that cracked the storm windows.
I learned how to use weatherstripping, window glazing, and glazier's pins as a 9th grader. My Dad taught me more than enough basic woodworking to make a replacement sash. I could probably take apart these single-pane old windows and handle restoring every wooden component with new wood myself, replace the pulleys and rope, bring the windows back to what they were originally. But a new vinyl window in a buck, double hung, tilt-out double panes filled with argon and E-coated, comes in at $189 for the largest window I have to replace. And I get to insulate and seal off the large sash channels/weight pockets.
You've seen the exterior of the windows. Can you really put in a storm window there?
This is a duplex I bought in a C- neighborhood for $45K. The neighborhood was specifically chosen because I was certain it would appreciate, and it has not disappointed. At current market prices, thus duplex would probably be worth $150K max, fully renovated. But not more. Can you see the value of doing the kind of extensive custom work you're really talking about? I can't. About $200 per window and two hours of work to solve my troubles? Sure.
And I haven't even started to talk about the basement windows.

To replace these basement windows IMO go with glass block windows with a vent. After the window and framing is removed, the glass block unit sits evenly on all sides inside the opening , shim, mortar and caulk. Sometimes they'll install wood framing around the installed glass block window where it meets the block wall so it gives the flush appearance when the width of the masonry is wider than the window. A window that size is maybe $150.
0 Reply
Jim K.
OP
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Anthony Rosa:
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Parker Eberhard:
@Jim K. The wood double hung that you described (I assume they are original) are better than 99% of the windows that you will be able to replace them with. They were originally design and built to be repaired. You can have them re-glazed and re-weather stripped if need be, as well as have storm windows added to them.
If you want to replace the windows in the same location, I would look at doing a replacement sash product that doesn’t require a whole new frame, water proofing, and siding / casing work.

Parker, as I mentioned before, I was raised in a 100-year-old farmhouse in upstate New York. This place was hot-water heated and the original coal boiler was still in place in the full basement, just with a gas conversion kit added and the coal room filled and bricked off in the fieldstone basement. There were storm windows, and since this was Horseheads, New York, there was also howling wind that cracked the storm windows.
I learned how to use weatherstripping, window glazing, and glazier's pins as a 9th grader. My Dad taught me more than enough basic woodworking to make a replacement sash. I could probably take apart these single-pane old windows and handle restoring every wooden component with new wood myself, replace the pulleys and rope, bring the windows back to what they were originally. But a new vinyl window in a buck, double hung, tilt-out double panes filled with argon and E-coated, comes in at $189 for the largest window I have to replace. And I get to insulate and seal off the large sash channels/weight pockets.
You've seen the exterior of the windows. Can you really put in a storm window there?
This is a duplex I bought in a C- neighborhood for $45K. The neighborhood was specifically chosen because I was certain it would appreciate, and it has not disappointed. At current market prices, thus duplex would probably be worth $150K max, fully renovated. But not more. Can you see the value of doing the kind of extensive custom work you're really talking about? I can't. About $200 per window and two hours of work to solve my troubles? Sure.
And I haven't even started to talk about the basement windows.

To replace these basement windows IMO go with glass block windows with a vent. After the window and framing is removed, the glass block unit sits evenly on all sides inside the opening , shim, mortar and caulk. Sometimes they'll install wood framing around the installed glass block window where it meets the block wall so it gives the flush appearance when the width of the masonry is wider than the window. A window that size is maybe $150.

Anthony, I agree with your opinion, and argued for it. But my wife hates glass block. So I'm replacing five of the windows with hopper windows and only three with glass block windows, the most I could get away with. One of the windows had already been replaced with exactly the kind of prefab vented glass block window you're talking about when we bought the place. I think it looks fine and it's certainly a far more secure window...but my wife hates it.

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