Window replacement, what do you do?
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Rental Property Investor · Greenwich, CT · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6yWhy are you replacing the windows, @Jim K.? Unless they have failed in some way (broken glass, rotted frames, etc.) it's almost never worth replacing them. The payback period is like 20+ years. If it's a matter of drafts and energy efficiency, consider storm windows.
77 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · MN · Member since 2015 · 186 posts · 149 votes6y
@Jim K. in Minneapolis most duplexes were build around 1920's, so I know what you're talking about. I generally replace basement windows with glass block. It costs me $240 per window total. The going rate around here to replace an old window with a new vinyl window is $500-600 each, done professionally by a window company. So far I've had to replace all windows and a patio door in just 1 building. Sometimes I try to "recondition" old windows - we have a company that, for $300 will remove weights/pulleys, insulate that cavity, install new track, and make them operate like a "modern" window. For some I had to get new storm windows - $150 or so each. I have this love/hate relationship with old windows - on one hand they suck (old, don't operate very well, misaligned, etc), one the other hand they're made out of old growth wood, lasted a century and will last another half a century.
- Rental Property Investor · New York City · Member since 2019 · 703 posts · 538 votes6y
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Anthony Rosa:
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Parker Eberhard:
@Jim K. The wood double hung that you described (I assume they are original) are better than 99% of the windows that you will be able to replace them with. They were originally design and built to be repaired. You can have them re-glazed and re-weather stripped if need be, as well as have storm windows added to them.
If you want to replace the windows in the same location, I would look at doing a replacement sash product that doesn’t require a whole new frame, water proofing, and siding / casing work.
Parker, as I mentioned before, I was raised in a 100-year-old farmhouse in upstate New York. This place was hot-water heated and the original coal boiler was still in place in the full basement, just with a gas conversion kit added and the coal room filled and bricked off in the fieldstone basement. There were storm windows, and since this was Horseheads, New York, there was also howling wind that cracked the storm windows.
I learned how to use weatherstripping, window glazing, and glazier's pins as a 9th grader. My Dad taught me more than enough basic woodworking to make a replacement sash. I could probably take apart these single-pane old windows and handle restoring every wooden component with new wood myself, replace the pulleys and rope, bring the windows back to what they were originally. But a new vinyl window in a buck, double hung, tilt-out double panes filled with argon and E-coated, comes in at $189 for the largest window I have to replace. And I get to insulate and seal off the large sash channels/weight pockets.
You've seen the exterior of the windows. Can you really put in a storm window there?
This is a duplex I bought in a C- neighborhood for $45K. The neighborhood was specifically chosen because I was certain it would appreciate, and it has not disappointed. At current market prices, thus duplex would probably be worth $150K max, fully renovated. But not more. Can you see the value of doing the kind of extensive custom work you're really talking about? I can't. About $200 per window and two hours of work to solve my troubles? Sure.
And I haven't even started to talk about the basement windows.
To replace these basement windows IMO go with glass block windows with a vent. After the window and framing is removed, the glass block unit sits evenly on all sides inside the opening , shim, mortar and caulk. Sometimes they'll install wood framing around the installed glass block window where it meets the block wall so it gives the flush appearance when the width of the masonry is wider than the window. A window that size is maybe $150.
Anthony, I agree with your opinion, and argued for it. But my wife hates glass block. So I'm replacing five of the windows with hopper windows and only three with glass block windows, the most I could get away with. One of the windows had already been replaced with exactly the kind of prefab vented glass block window you're talking about when we bought the place. I think it looks fine and it's certainly a far more secure window...but my wife hates it.
Hahaha, my wife says the same thing.
- Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes6y
Smart decision to replace them. I usually replace as well. Home Depot Andersen 70 Series is what I use for rentals and Starter homes too. 100 & 200 for mid grade houses. 400 for the high end stuff.
If you stay loyal to HD they’ll bring down the price a lot. Ive spent probably close to $100k on windows at HD this year alone. No one has been able to even match their price for me. Lowe’s replacement windows are garbage.
- 6yJim K.Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votesOP
Yeah. This is a duplex I bought for $45K in a C- area, max ARV for this is probably going to hover around $150K for the next five-ten years. It's the kind of hood where you wake up and your stuff's been stolen off the back porch in the night. Not exactly Millionaire's Row.
There's a guy down the street putting slab granite round-in-place marble floors in the bathrooms of his triplex, swears he'll get his money back in forced appreciation. Maybe the shooting that happened last month in the service alley out back has dissuaded him, maybe not.
- Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes6y
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Yeah. This is a duplex I bought for $45K in a C- area, max ARV for this is probably going to hover around $150K for the next five-ten years. It's the kind of hood where you wake up and your stuff's been stolen off the back porch in the night. Not exactly Millionaire's Row.
There's a guy down the street putting slab granite round-in-place marble floors in the bathrooms of his triplex, swears he'll get his money back in forced appreciation. Maybe the shooting that happened last month in the service alley out back has dissuaded him, maybe not.
Lol wow... crazy to think how much money people waste over renovating. Some things add value, many things don’t. Especially in a flip.
- Rental Property Investor · Madison, WI · Member since 2013 · 629 posts · 339 votes6y
We have a 1914 rental (B+neighborhood) house, and have replaced windows only when the frames are so rotted that they're held together with metal L brackets. We replaced with double hung wood inserts (Marvin). Only done 4 so far - but they are SO much nicer than the old ones. I don't like the look of vinyl, looks cheap to me. The wood costs $100 more per window, but I think it is a better window.
We did replace all the basement windows with vinyl though. Are hopper windows the kind that open at the top and tilt inward? That's what we used.
- Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 666 votes6y
@Jim K.simple call window co that installs windows, about 175 on avg installed,
- 6yJim K.Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votesOP
Not quite so simple. The lowest bid I got on installed windows was $475 each (Home Depot). The highest was close to $1K each (Andersen). Window replacement companies are the last the buccaneers around here. Are they really so much better in Cleveland, to put in windows for $175 cost and installation combined? Or do you pay these people $175 each to have these windows installed? This kind of neighborhood doesn't have those kinds of margins for refinancing, as I've explained multiple times so far in this thread. Didn't I mention the shooting?
- 6yDan DiCiaulaPro MemberRental Property Investor · Bloomington, IL · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 4 votes
@Jim K. I’ve used the Anderson American craftsman in 3 of our properties in central Illinois and tore out and replaced myself. One house I was in a crunch so I used stock and got smaller than the rough opening and used PVC trim to trim the exterior. The other two I special ordered them all to fit. If any of our houses we buy have wood windows we replace them. It’s easy in the beginning of a rehab and I believe if you have one person who knows eBay they’re doing, you’d be fine to do yourself
- 6yJim K.Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votesOP
I've used my oscillating tool to cut of nailing and other flanges to make stock windows fit, used pressure-treated lumber to modify openings, and me and my Great Stuff foam are very tight.
The problem is that you're handing off your property to a C-class tenant who is not going to be gentle on the windows. You can't have lovingly-preserved, well-aged windows. The property has to be able to take abuse, and you have to work in such a way that fixes, when they have to happen, can happen quickly.
I should mention again that I'm a registered Pennsylvania home improvement contractor, even though I let my insurance lapse this year because I'm not working on anything right now that requires a building permit and I'm not taking outside jobs. Figuring out how to take out an old window and frame and put in a modular one is not exactly the most difficult handyman task I've ever pulled off.
- 6yDan DiCiaulaPro MemberRental Property Investor · Bloomington, IL · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 4 votes
@Jim K. Yeah I understand what you mean with tenants. I also just saw the pictures that it was an all brick building. I just feel When you go to get your appraisal or list the building, new windows will add value. Also could justify charging more per unit.
- 6yJim K.Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votesOP
Originally posted by @Dan DiCiaula:
@Jim K. Yeah I understand what you mean with tenants. I also just saw the pictures that it was an all brick building. I just feel When you go to get your appraisal or list the building, new windows will add value. Also could justify charging more per unit.
In this case, the upstairs apartment actually used to be Section 8. The inspection people came in and covered every window with plastic panes to reduce heat loss and drafts through the windows -- I spent a day unscrewing them last year when I was renovating the top apartment. There are a LOT of windows, and all of them leak like crazy, because this house was built by rich people, it was built to be heated by coal in western PA at a time when poor ventilation was thought to cause many major diseases, and anthracite was cheaper in western PA than anywhere else in the world. In Yinzburgh, old windows never add charm, they just add headaches.
- Rental Property Investor · Miami/Jacksonville Fl · Member since 2014 · 75 posts · 41 votes6y
@Jim K. Hi Jim I have rentals in South Florida, they were built in the 1960s and I wish I could change out all the windows. I wish I could install Hurricane Impact windows with permits using a Contractor, but it would cost an outrageous amount of money. I plan to start making window improvements to the multi families that I intend to keep long term. In the past I’ve been forced to change out a window or 2 and we’ve done it ourselves but I regret it. I feel that when things are done hurriedly and without the proper paper trial that you are only jeopardizing your own investment. I wouldn’t collect anymore rent from units if they had new impact resistant windows so it’s hard to justify the expense. But I’d sleep better at night when Hurricanes come around.
- 6yJim K.Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votesOP
I can sympathize. Conversely, when I HAVEN'T done a critical renovation job on one of my properties and let someone else handle it, I worry. Cabinets, tile, stone, windows, showers, any custom woodwork, anything beyond basic roofing replacement...I have no trust. Except my master plumber/HVAC guy. I can thankfully trust his company with my life, and have multiple times in the past.
As far as the proper paper trail goes, I believe you need a permit in most major population centers in Florida to change windows. I think I once looked it up for Jacksonville. It's because of the hurricane issues. Here in PA, in the City of Pittsburgh proper I do need a permit to change windows, while in the suburb I'm working in just outside the city, I don't. The duplex that I'm talking about is right next to the borough building. The main code enforcement officer tells me how high to jump and I do. I own multiple properties in the same borough. Just in case, I've already invited him into the property and run my full renovation plan by him, just so we have no surprised when I apply for my Certificate of Occupancy. Good point, and I often forget to mention it after years of handymanning for profit. DIYing window replacement in some parts of the country is not an option, unless you're a specialized contractor.
- Rental Property Investor · Madison, WI · Member since 2013 · 629 posts · 339 votes6y
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Yes, Hopper windows open at the top and tilt inward. And how much did Marvin windows cost you, along with the installation?
I think $500ish installed. These are big windows,too.
- 6yJim K.Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votesOP
Yes, they look similar to mine, more than two feet wide, about five feet long. No wonder you've only replaced four in your rental. For $2000, I can buy ten vinyl replacement windows that size and have a hundred bucks left over for silicone caulk and spray foam.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
Cool old house Jim. Lots of work as you know. They don't build them like they used to, which is both good and bad.
I need to do a round of windows myself right now. Yup, I learned the hard way that inserts are the way to go always if I can get away with it. In general, I think if a window's not broken, it doesn't pay to replace it.
I'm sort of tearing my hair out right now to be honest. I made the mistake of biting off too much last year when I bought two duplexes (I had the money so why not???). I took off work to rehab the one, while the other had inherited tenants so I let it ride. The one is done and rented and is pretty awesome thank you very much.
The second is about as bad as the first. The problem is, I don't have the luxury this year to just take off work and fix it up - whoops - did I really not see that coming? Dummy.
The second had inherited tenants. Now one of them has been evicted. That unit is not horrible, but not marketable either. Interesting how a tenant in-place is ok with some ugly stuff while a prospective tenant is not. Another thing I should have seen coming - duh.
So I've jumped in and decided to "do it right" this time. That means doing things in the correct order, from the ground up. So I started with the basement and gutted 100 years of BS, I mean like scary wont go in the basement, bio-hazard, unsafe electrical, naily-boards everywhere sort of stuff.
I left (the best) underneath the stairs for last, and when I dug all that out and evicted the spiders found that particular corner of the foundation had a big piece missing (this story is getting long). Yup, I could practically stick my hand through it. I suppose that at least solved the mystery of how the water was coming in and at least it means its not from the blocks filling up with ground water (drain tile not failing) - lol. Obviously this was more than I bargained for and immediately started yelling at myself for paying as much as I did for the damn thing and how could I have missed that and how will I ever get into the unit if I can't get out of the basement yada yada yada.
So if your still reading this novel I actually did a pretty cool fix. This particular corner of the building is where the foundation is shorter than the rest to account for the back entry/stairs. The top portion has bricks in mortar over the blocks and of course those were all failing too. The good news is most of the wood bottom plate on top of the bricks is sound. Turns out that despite the driveway being pitched correctly away from the house, the water pools on the other side and backs up via the damn expansion joint in the concrete, and quite efficiently was draining between the driveway concrete and the house, right into the corner of the foundation and all those bricks over who knows how many years. Water is amazing stuff.
Replacing the damn foundation/driveway in that corner was not feasible and being the handy and clever ghetto-carpenter I am, decided there must be a way to band-aid the damn thing. It is after all my band-aid house. So what I did is build a wood form on the lawn side (after digging a trench along the drive to divert the water that is) and began pouring soupy mortar into the form and between the driveway and the house. I built it up as high as I could, to the top of the bricks on all sides, and formed a concrete diverter around the entire corner while at the same time filled in the missing foundation piece and all the failing tuck-points in the loose brick. I suppose you could say I caulked that damn thing with mortar. But not to diss the use of caulk, I also replaced all the failing siding in that corner and went through about 15 tubes of Vulkem sealing the remaining space between my mortar madness and the siding. Absolutely nuts but you know what? The damn thing actually turned out awesome and it might just hold up.
So as I was in the middle of all that, I happened to notice the garage is threatening to fall over and the suspended second story deck is coming away from the house. Funny, I seem to remember taking a pretty good look at both of those when I bought it - hmm.
The garage had a tree growing into it and pushing it over - in my defense I think it got worse in the last year. However coming to my senses, I realized I was damn lucky the thing hadn't collapsed over and hurt someone. I mean, the tenants were using it and never said a word. Did they never notice either??? Water over the bridge, I promptly kicked everyone out of the garage and condemned it. I cut down the tree easily enough. I cleaned out the stored junk in the one unused bay and then to my horror, found as much junk in rafters as was stored in the one side bay. I mean, all that weight up there on nothing but a couple of inadequate 2 x 4's??? I got seriously annoyed at all tenants everywhere and screamed very loud as I carefully climbed up and pulled all that crap out. I'm sure the entire neighborhood heard it and I gave the ghetto screamers a run for their money let me tell you. A couple of dump runs and the thing now only holds a few sheets of plywood for the fix and a couple of posts for my suspended deck. Now I have to decide if I am really going to try to pull the thing back in place and brace the hell out of it/re-build it or, will I just pony up and hire a demo company to tear it down. I certainly want to fix it, for reasons of cost and function, but maybe it's just too far gone. I will not replace it if it goes down. Meanwhile, by "best" friend who committed to helping, is MIA.
The suspended deck is the sort that has angle braces going back to the exterior wall. One side appears to be pulling out but just as fun, there is zero flashing between the deck and siding, and who knows how rotten it is in there. Caulk is not going to work this time - lol. So, I need to rip at least some of that out and put some flashing in there but damn, I don't have a stupid brake for one stupid piece of metal and again, my "best" friend, who has a brake, is MIA.
Then I happened to be checking out my attic, and was wondering what was up with the vent. Turns out there is no vent, it's just a damn hole big enough to stick a hand through. I suppose that likely explains where the water is coming from that leaks onto the first floor ceiling, but magically jumps over the second floor unit. I guess it wasn't the kitchen plumbing that I fixed three times.
So, after I fix all that, I can get into my unit - lol.
The unit is pretty straight-forward except for the kitchen floor that slopes upwards quite a bit. I believe someone jacked up the walls at some point. So back to the part where I gutted the basement stairs, which is where it would have been jacked up. I actually removed all the framing in that spot so I could lower the walls/floor. Didn't move one bit - lol. The power of screws??? Sigh. So on that score, I am going to re-frame the supports (for looks I guess?) and level the floor by building it up on the low side. Fun stuff.
Once that is done, all I need is a new kitchen, new bath, some wall repair, paint, some misc electrical and laundry hook-ups.
All for $650 a month, and that includes the water - lol.
Not including my time, I'm all in for about $50-60k. That meets the 1% rule right???
I'll be shocked and impressed if anyone read all that, but damn I needed to vent a bit.
I dunno...I need to do all this a different way or not at all. Not enough hours in the day to do it myself. I probably shouldn't be wasting time on BP either.
- 6yDan DiCiaulaPro MemberRental Property Investor · Bloomington, IL · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 4 votes
@Jim K. With that said I know what you’re going to end up doing, best of luck with the rehab!
- 6yJim K.Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votesOP
@Account Closed
Oh, I feel for you, Merritt. I know what it's like. I thought I was going to be in this duplex renovation for eight months max to get the top apartment rented. This is the end of year 2, and I have not pulled off my househack while I have bought multiple other properties and rented them out. Powerful, lasting lessons being learned.
- Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
@Jim K.
Ok, I’m finally able to respond to this post.
As a contractor and investor, I always encourage my clients on replacing rather than repairing. I do not want old single pane windows in my properties either.
In my tenure of fixing houses, I’ve repaired, repainted, replaced glass, sash cords, etc. I will no longer waste my time. I can replace an old window with a new vinyl replacement in about 30 mins. I can’t tell you how many investors I’ve talked into replacing instead of repairing. And the only company I’ve found locally is Harvey that still makes custom storm windows and last time I had them quoted they weren’t much lower than a replacement window.
- Rental Property Investor · Woodstock, GA · Member since 2017 · 517 posts · 772 votes6y
We just finished a flip and replaced the windows. Think we made a mistake doing it. 80s house. Some just painted shut but really just old hardware.
I've heard mixed feelings about when to replace. People said buyers now are looking at windows, but not sure I believe that anymore
We spent 380 per wood window single. I had always heard much more expensive bids so thought it was a good deal...hearing some of these quotes, I feel gipped lol
- Portland, ME · Member since 2012 · 616 posts · 550 votes6y
Nobody has mentioned lead paint. It's a big problem where I live. If a child in your unit tests over the limit for lead, inspectors will go in and test the unit and will probably find lead paint somewhere, typically in the windows. They will be forced to move, at your expense, and you'll have to get on the waiting list for a licensed lead abatement company to go in and charge you about quadruple what it should cost to make it "lead safe". This could be another reason to replace old painted wood windows with vinyl while units are empty.
- Contractor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2019 · 339 posts · 325 votes6y
@Tanya F. The marvins are nice! I really like their Integrity line of fiberglass windows with wood interior. They don’t have the thermal movement that vinyl do, and fiberglass can be painted (unlike vinyl)
- 6yJim K.Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votesOP
Originally posted by @Joe Cassandra:
We just finished a flip and replaced the windows. Think we made a mistake doing it. 80s house. Some just painted shut but really just old hardware.
I've heard mixed feelings about when to replace. People said buyers now are looking at windows, but not sure I believe that anymore
We spent 380 per wood window single. I had always heard much more expensive bids so thought it was a good deal...hearing some of these quotes, I feel gipped lol
Yeah, I think you did, too. In Georgia, you have to replace windows installed in the 1980s? Doesn't make sense. This duplex was built in 1925, by my best guess.
$380 per window with installation is a very good price for a wood-frame window, at least up here. The price of these vinyl replacements are $189 each, and I could probably go lower, but it's me or a handyman doing all the work and I renovated my first place myself in 2006. There's a learning curve.
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