Contractor didn’t do a good job

Contractor didn’t do a good job

Aaron GorumPro Member
Investor · Portsmouth, RI · Member since 2018 · 23 posts · 7 votes

We just finished a kitchen renovation around Newport RI and we aren’t happy with the quality of work provided.

First, the contractor ran way over timeline. I didn’t have a penalty for that because I thought a simple kitchen remodel shouldn’t take more than 9 weeks.

The oak flooring was stained. However several areas show slight bubbling and some areas have the new stain on the white cabinets. Also, the walls are still covered in saw dust from staining and finishing the floors.

He moved the basement stairway from the kitchen to the hallway to allow for the open concept design. The old stairs had two posts and two railings. He only installed one for some reason.

The kitchen cabinets were bought new and he only reported one damaged, setting us back another two weeks for manufacturing of a new section. He was not ready for counter installation and that costs a week and $200 (he is paying that). He had to build a new ceiling to make the cabinets work, but apparently the ceiling isn’t level and he used the bevel molding to shave down to make level instead of as the finishing touch it was supposed to be. Also the upper cabinets only have one set of screws holding them up. It took him apparent two time (every time) to find a stud. However, I don’t trust that the cabinets won’t fall once filled. There are no screws in the bottom cabinets. Finally the screws to adjoin the pieces of cabinetry isn’t there, leaving several noticeable gaps between them.

I haven’t paid the final payment to the contractor. I figured it’s the only leverage I have to get work completed to my satisfaction. My question is how long and how much would I be able to withhold for such poor craftsmanship.

Any actual help would be appreciated. Precedent would be the best! Take care.

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Contractor · Oxford, MA · Member since 2018 · 807 posts · 745 votes
6y

You can withhold any amount you see fit until it is done to your satisfaction. If he cannot or will not finish it to a level equal to industry standards then you can hire someone else to fix his work and deduct their payment from what you owe him. This is assuming the contract you signed with him doesn't dictate the answers to the questions you're asking 

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  • Contractor · Oxford, MA · Member since 2018 · 807 posts · 745 votes
    6y

    You can withhold any amount you see fit until it is done to your satisfaction. If he cannot or will not finish it to a level equal to industry standards then you can hire someone else to fix his work and deduct their payment from what you owe him. This is assuming the contract you signed with him doesn't dictate the answers to the questions you're asking 

  • Contractor · Evansville, IN · Member since 2019 · 142 posts · 208 votes
    6y

    @Aaron Gorum

    "Performed to industry standards and defect free under normal viewing conditions"

    Custom cabinetry? Raising a ceiling to accommodate cabinetry? Seems like an absurd request to me, unless this was a high end job.

    You gotta set quality standards/expectations BEFORE any work starts. I'm on your side here, but waiting on countertops could be a simple communication error (depending on who ordered them)

    I try not to go more than 3 days without communicating to my clients. Communication is the heart of most problems.

    Heck, I just ditched a gutter guy because he wouldn't answer the phone when I called. If your too special to communicate, your too spe cial for my money.

  • Aaron GorumPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Portsmouth, RI · Member since 2018 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    @Bill Kramer it wasn’t special cabinetry. There was a soffit built by the previous owner to accommodate his cabinets. Ours came straight from Home Depot.

  • Contractor · Evansville, IN · Member since 2019 · 142 posts · 208 votes
    6y

    @Aaron Gorum

    Gotcha.

    Just keep on his butt, and with hold the $$ but get a plan b going. He either will fix it, or ghost you. Bad contractors give us all bad names.

  • Contractor · Oxford, MA · Member since 2018 · 807 posts · 745 votes
    6y

    Are you in RI or GA? J/W if it is an out of state investment or not 

  • Real Estate Agent · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2019 · 448 posts · 320 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Gorum:

    We just finished a kitchen renovation around Newport RI and we aren’t happy with the quality of work provided.

    First, the contractor ran way over timeline. I didn’t have a penalty for that because I thought a simple kitchen remodel shouldn’t take more than 9 weeks.

    Where did you get the idea that it should only take 9 weeks?  Why did it take longer?  How much did it go over the 9 weeks?  Were you financially damaged by this?  Did the contractor agree to your 9 week timeline?  Were there circumstances which added to the timing that were beyond the contractor's control?

    The oak flooring was stained. However several areas show slight bubbling and some areas have the new stain on the white cabinets. Also, the walls are still covered in saw dust from staining and finishing the floors.

    Bubbling is from sawdust getting on the poly as it was drying.  They are supposed to vacuum all of that up before applying the stain/poly.  The flooring guy can sand the top coat and apply another coat of poly to reduce/eliminate the bubbling.  

    He moved the basement stairway from the kitchen to the hallway to allow for the open concept design. The old stairs had two posts and two railings. He only installed one for some reason.

    I don't know what the rules are there but to meet code in many areas only one handrail is required.  Did he agree to install two railings ahead of time?  

    The kitchen cabinets were bought new and he only reported one damaged, setting us back another two weeks for manufacturing of a new section. 

    Was the cabinet damaged in shipping or did he damage it?

    He was not ready for counter installation and that costs a week and $200 (he is paying that). He had to build a new ceiling to make the cabinets work, but apparently the ceiling isn’t level and he used the bevel molding to shave down to make level instead of as the finishing touch it was supposed to be. Also the upper cabinets only have one set of screws holding them up. It took him apparent two time (every time) to find a stud. However, I don’t trust that the cabinets won’t fall once filled. There are no screws in the bottom cabinets. Finally the screws to adjoin the pieces of cabinetry isn’t there, leaving several noticeable gaps between them.

    Lots to unpack here.  Is this going over lath and plaster or drywall?  New studs or old?  Did he install fillers to account for the gaps?  Did you pay additional for the new ceiling he installed or was this part of the work?  

    I haven’t paid the final payment to the contractor. I figured it’s the only leverage I have to get work completed to my satisfaction. My question is how long and how much would I be able to withhold for such poor craftsmanship.

    Correct.  That's your only leverage.  I would make a written punch list itemizing all the issues, get him to agree to fix everything, and then pay him once its done.  A typical holdback is 10% of the overall job.  

    Any actual help would be appreciated. Precedent would be the best! Take care.

  • Aaron GorumPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Portsmouth, RI · Member since 2018 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    @Bryan Devitt I’m active duty navy. I was stationed in San Diego and moving during the renovation.

  • Contractor · Oxford, MA · Member since 2018 · 807 posts · 745 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Gorum:

    @Bryan Devitt I’m active duty navy. I was stationed in San Diego and moving during the renovation.

     OK, it's close enough that I could have day tripped to put eyes on it but far enough away that I didn't want to offer if you were in state haha. 

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    How strong and clear is the contract?

  • Real Estate Professional · Silver Spring, MD · Member since 2017 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    Have you spoke with him about your concerns? How often were you checking in on the progress? 

  • Member since 2019 · 7 posts · 11 votes
    6y

    @Aaron Gorum I would check any state laws for withholding payment from the contractor but I definitely wouldn't pay him in full until it's fixed or a agreement is met. The spacing between cabinets could be the cabinets themselves the screws should be hidden behind the hinges if he did screw them together and the base screws should be hidden by the countertop.

    I am a contractor in eastern Iowa and just finished a kitchen in a hundred year old home can definitely be difficult but not impossible to make it look right.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    What has been the contractors response to the issues?

    Dust is easy to fix.

    Bubbles in the finish, how bad or noticeable are they? You could ask them to buff and apply another coat. 

    Stain on cabinets should come off with the right method.

    Adding a second railing to basement stairs wouldn’t take more than a day.

    Adding screws to cabinet/wall is easy. Trying to pull cabinet faces together with counters in... not sure how they can fix that one.

    The new ceiling is not level? Old houses are notorious for not being level. This might not really be the contractors issue.

    Photos would help but a good amount of your items are quick fixes. Some may not be fixable and some may not be his fault (ceiling not level, if the house isn’t, and you could argue basement step railing if there was not two scopes out).

  • Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Aaron Gorum Have to be careful a lot of contractors make mistakes purposely to drag the project past it's finishing date to pocket more money

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    6y

    @Aaron Gorum sounds like a learning experience and a reminder that it’s hard to find good finish guys. Lots of “contractors” but not many can install cabinets properly or finish floors with the right process. The contractor needs to learn from his mistakes and fix his crap. To not screw face frames together is more than negligent. The face frames should be screwed together before driving any screws in the bottom of the cabinet to line them up. He might have installed only one handrail to make the width of the stairway code compliant. Only one is required and very common to find. To have real peace of mind, you might want to check on those studs yourself if you think they missed. If they missed studs on the top of the uppers you’ll have problems even if they hit them on the bottom obviously. Sounds like you’re not in a real bad relationship with this guy yet, so maybe try to have him fix stuff and have an attititude that you’ll pay him if he fixes xy and z. To try to get him to redo all his work is not going to happen, unless it was me. Let him know where you’re not satisfied and if he’s really striving for good reviews etc he’ll want to fix whatever it is.

  • Rental Property Investor · Shakopee, MN · Member since 2015 · 985 posts · 374 votes
    6y

    He doesn't get his final payment until everything is fixed correctly.  Do let him know you are not satisfied with the work and show him what is wrong.  This is not acceptable.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    We had one that walked away from $7,000 & we finished the work ourselves for $1,800.

    BUT we had a tight contract, no money was advanced until the work was signed off as completed & our attorney released any & all payments after discussing it with us. To avoid Mech. Liens, all subs were paid in full by the attorney upon receipt of their invoices & confirmation of the work completed, then the subs signed off as paid in full. 

    When he went back to our attorney to try & claim the $7,000 he was advised to talk to his attorney, to which he replied I can't because I haven't paid him. He went away.

  • Real Estate Agent · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2019 · 448 posts · 320 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Patrick Palmer:

    @Aaron Gorum Have to be careful a lot of contractors make mistakes purposely to drag the project past it's finishing date to pocket more money

    How exactly would that work?  If you drag the project out it will only upset the client and upset clients don't pay their bills.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y

    Two choices (1) get used to it and just follow up and ensure the work is completed according to contract and (2) scale so you can have others deal with it.  It's just part of the business.  I did #1 for a while and then HAD to move to #2.

    Side note...over the next 10-15 years, automation is going to displace workers and drive construction labor costs down as workers move into the trades.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Mike Dymski:

    Two choices (1) get used to it and just follow up and ensure the work is completed according to contract and (2) scale so you can have others deal with it.  It's just part of the business.  I did #1 for a while and then HAD to move to #2.

    Side note...over the next 10-15 years, automation is going to displace workers and drive construction labor costs down as workers move into the trades.

    Shoot Mike I was hoping that lower labor costs on building would happen sooner than that :).. its a tough labor market for sure right now.

    Good ones know it and charge accordingly.  Having a go to sub base is what its all about.. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2019 · 448 posts · 320 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Mike Dymski:

    Two choices (1) get used to it and just follow up and ensure the work is completed according to contract and (2) scale so you can have others deal with it.  It's just part of the business.  I did #1 for a while and then HAD to move to #2.

    Side note...over the next 10-15 years, automation is going to displace workers and drive construction labor costs down as workers move into the trades.

    In theory this sounds great.  I haven't been able to move to #2 because I have found that quality suffers too much.  How have you dealt with this?

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Steven Lowe:
    Originally posted by @Mike Dymski:

    Two choices (1) get used to it and just follow up and ensure the work is completed according to contract and (2) scale so you can have others deal with it.  It's just part of the business.  I did #1 for a while and then HAD to move to #2.

    Side note...over the next 10-15 years, automation is going to displace workers and drive construction labor costs down as workers move into the trades.

    In theory this sounds great.  I haven't been able to move to #2 because I have found that quality suffers too much.  How have you dealt with this?

    I either needed to hire an employee (manager) or use 3rd party management.  I chose the latter starting in 2016 (but I understand that it's a fluid situation and that things can change).  My portfolio is extremely passive right now.

  • Aaron GorumPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Portsmouth, RI · Member since 2018 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    Had a conversation with the contractor today to air out our issues. He has agreed to fix all the issues with the exception of the ceiling. This was on me and an oversight that will haunt me with hind sight being 20/20 (but I won't make the mistake again). We agreed the new drywall ceiling would go up over the old plaster ceiling (me thinking there is no way the ceiling could have a bow). Had I requested the plaster be taken down completely, the ceiling would have been more level throughout. 

    The erroneous holes inside the cabinets were made because he eye balled where the studs were supposed to be. Also, because one wall used to be the back of the house, but now has an addition. This should have been caught because he took down all drywall to do minor construction work to move an existing window. He will fix this with a mini-wax blend-fil wax pencil and blend to match the cabinet interior. If he is unable to fix to our satisfaction, he has offered to purchase new cabinets.

    Several upper cabinets only had one screw due to him not reading the installation guide that comes with the cabinets. They specify the location and type of screw. He has added more screws into the studs IAW with the installation guide. One part that keeps irritating me is that he continues to use the wrong screws inside the cabinet. They call for pan head screws, he continues to use dry wall screws. Same size and length but totally different look once I googled pan head screw. I have them on order and will deduct from his overall bill once he installs them. 

    The poly issues he owned up to not cleaning as he should prior to laying it down. He took full responsibility and offered for a cleaner to come into the house to continue to clean every wall and ceiling.

    Code for RI is only one rail. He stated that he didn't install the other one because he didn't have to. He did state that he knew I wanted it prior to the start.

    All in all I think this was a productive meeting and we will move forward starting next week. He fully understand and has agreed that he will not receive his last payment until we are completely satisfied. I didn't clarify this previously but this is our home until new orders come in 3 years, and the contractor lives right across the street from us! I think we will be able to come to an understanding.

    Lessons learned to debrief from this experience (I know it isn't over):

    Start with a very defined contract preferably with a Quality Assurance step prior to payment @Pat L.

    Set quality standards from the start and be ready to move to another contractor at the first sign of non-communication or non-fulfillment of promises or not meeting the standards set@Brian Pulaski

    Even though I was stationed in San Diego during this renovation in RI, I had plenty of Navy members that would have been more than happy to critique anyone else's work. @Bryan Devitt

    Read more up on codes in the areas that I am conducting the renovations @Account Closed

    No one brought this up, but something I have done through this process (and in my Navy career) always follow any conversation with an email dictating was was discussed and agreed upon and have the other party agree or make changes. This ensures a proper paper trail when things hit the roof. 

    Thank you all for the feedback.

  • Contractor · Denver, CO · Member since 2009 · 399 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    One screw per cabinet because he didn't read the installation manual? Drywall screws to hang cabinets... huge red flag this guy has no idea what he is doing. 

  • Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
    6y

    @Aaron Gorum what kind of countertop did you have installed over these completely unsecured base cabinets that it didn't come up that they weren't attached to anything?  Or for that matter, what sink?  I'm pretty sure my wife could hear the sound of my brain trying to understand what happened in your kitchen from across the house.

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 432 posts · 221 votes
    6y

    @Aaron Gorum why would I read more about codes in your area? Is there something I should know? I’m a licensed GC in CA and know code is a pretty big book. Just not sure what you’re referring to. Maybe you meant to tag someone else’s name there. Always learning...

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