Who are the tax lien experts here?
Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
Who are the tax lien experts here?
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John UnderwoodPro Member
Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votesI know about SC. Have been buying them for 12 years or so. Don't have a day job anymore because of the houses I have acquired with a tax deed.
39 Replies
- Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes4y
@Will Sifert I can assist you with Texas. @arnie abrahamson is also Texas expert.
Not on the forums that I know of, but Sandra Edmonds out of Palm Beach seems to know Florida Well.
@Ned Carey out of Baltimore knows Maryland
There is a guy out of SC that posts frequently, but it is late and name doesn't come top of mind this second.
Also not on the forum that I know of, but there was a lady that went by the name Tax Lien Lady I believe out of Ohio or Indiana that seemed to know her stuff.
- Texas Tax Sales Services · Merit, TX · Member since 2014 · 256 posts · 166 votes4y
Thank you Bruce. Here is correct spelling however, :)
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
Thanks for responding guys. I know there has to be more, if you have a lot of experience in tax liens please add your name to the list. I have Louisiana covered if anyone wants to know anything about Louisiana.
- 4yJohn UnderwoodPro MemberInvestor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
I know about SC. Have been buying them for 12 years or so. Don't have a day job anymore because of the houses I have acquired with a tax deed.
- 4yJohn UnderwoodPro MemberInvestor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
Maybe once you have the list, everyone could post a cliff notes version of their states laws/operation of tax lien auctions to compile.
- Texas Tax Sales Services · Merit, TX · Member since 2014 · 256 posts · 166 votes4y
I started buying tax deeds in Texas in 1991. I now have all the services available for investors for Texas. We cover the entire state and am certainly willing to confer with any BP investors at no charge. Just contact me.
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
Originally posted by @John Underwood:
Maybe once you have the list, everyone could post a cliff notes version of their states laws/operation of tax lien auctions to compile.
That is what I am working on ;) I can find the basics doing research but only the people who do it every year, for years, know the ins and outs.
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
Originally posted by @Arnie Abramson:
I started buying tax deeds in Texas in 1991. I now have all the services available for investors for Texas. We cover the entire state and am certainly willing to confer with any BP investors at no charge. Just contact me.
Thanks Arnie, I know a lot about tax liens but not that much about deeds. Is there a decent amount of deeds for less than 20K or do most cost tens of thousands of dollars or more? I was attracted to liens because of the low cost of entry, like most I just started off with a couple thousand dollars. My first year I bought about 5 liens. I have been investing in tax liens in Louisiana since 2009. I've always reinvested everything I made and have grown that initial small investment into buying over 100 tax liens a year now. If you ever have any questions about Louisiana let me know.
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
Originally posted by @John Underwood:
I know about SC. Have been buying them for 12 years or so. Don't have a day job anymore because of the houses I have acquired with a tax deed.
That is awesome. I am not to the point yet. I haven't taken any money out in 12 years, just reinvest it. My goal is to build it as big as I can for another 10-15 years then I can retire from it. I don't want to hinder my progress yet. Its like you start off with 1 that you turn into 2, than 4, than 8, than 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512 that is where I am at now if I started pulling money from it, it might just go 512, 600,700, 800 and I am too motivated to see 512 go to 1024, 2048 etc etc for me to stop rolling it back in. I'm finally past the slow growth part in the beginning several years, now the fun really starts if I let keep going full force.
- Texas Tax Sales Services · Merit, TX · Member since 2014 · 256 posts · 166 votes4y
Will, there are vacant lots and mineral rights that are offered at less than 20K in Texas. However, remember it is an auction and the asking price is just the opening bid. For the next sale on December 7, so far there are over 1300 properties offered in 76 counties. We not only have the basic info on each available, but also try and keep up with the ones that are paid off and removed from the auction.
- 4yJohn UnderwoodPro MemberInvestor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
Originally posted by @Will Sifert:
Originally posted by @John Underwood:
I know about SC. Have been buying them for 12 years or so. Don't have a day job anymore because of the houses I have acquired with a tax deed.
That is awesome. I am not to the point yet. I haven't taken any money out in 12 years, just reinvest it. My goal is to build it as big as I can for another 10-15 years then I can retire from it. I don't want to hinder my progress yet. Its like you start off with 1 that you turn into 2, than 4, than 8, than 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512 that is where I am at now if I started pulling money from it, it might just go 512, 600,700, 800 and I am too motivated to see 512 go to 1024, 2048 etc etc for me to stop rolling it back in. I'm finally past the slow growth part in the beginning several years, now the fun really starts if I let keep going full force.
I am getting 4 more deeds to houses from last year's sale at a neighboring county. That's a good year for me. Just have to wait on deeds to show up in my mailbox. Once fixed up and rented that will give me about a 4k/month raise.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
KNow CA tax deed pretty well .. My Dad did this starting in the mid 60s and we bought well over 3k parcels over the years.
CA though is pretty straight forward and now with Bid for assets crying the sales and everything on line.. Not nearly as good as it was years ago when it was all hand work know your parcel maps know your quad maps etc etc.
as well as in CA very FEW actaul structures go to tax deed sale VERY few its 99% land .. Values of homes are too high and you have pre tax sale investors hounding those lists.
@John Underwood I like Johns Model the very best for a local owner operator he understands the risks reward and REALITY of what he does.. If John wants to explain I will let him.. But I would do the same thing if I lived in that area.
- 4yJohn UnderwoodPro MemberInvestor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
KNow CA tax deed pretty well .. My Dad did this starting in the mid 60s and we bought well over 3k parcels over the years.
CA though is pretty straight forward and now with Bid for assets crying the sales and everything on line.. Not nearly as good as it was years ago when it was all hand work know your parcel maps know your quad maps etc etc.
as well as in CA very FEW actaul structures go to tax deed sale VERY few its 99% land .. Values of homes are too high and you have pre tax sale investors hounding those lists.
@John Underwood I like Johns Model the very best for a local owner operator he understands the risks reward and REALITY of what he does.. If John wants to explain I will let him.. But I would do the same thing if I lived in that area.
Wish I had access to a few million to travel around the state and buy liens. I enjoy doing the research and driving by properties prior to a sale.
Many areas are getting tough to buy stuff due to the competition driving up prices, but still the best game in town IMHO.
- Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes4y
I have been doing Arizona tax liens since 2010. @Jay Hinrichs is correct about liens - they rarely end up foreclosing in AZ. I just got my third vacant residential parcel through foreclosure today. All 3 foreclosures happened this year and are in Yavapai county north of Phoenix. I buy liens on structures and vacant land. I'm mainly after the interest rate return, not the property. Vacant land in AZ (outside of Phoenix - Maricopa County) get pretty high rates of return. I avoid Maricopa because of the lower rates and all the competition. Plenty for me outside of that county.
These 3 liens were 16% and actually there were 4 I had to foreclose on because the statute of limitations on my liens were about to expire. One person paid off to redeem and it was 10 years of taxes at 16%. Don't get excited - the taxes were about $150 per year the last few years, but the early years were better. I had to pay each year's taxes and got 16% on all years. The interest was greater than the principal when they paid off.I filed in January for foreclosure using Mark Manoil as my attorney who specializes in tax liens in Phoenix. The first one paid off (redeemed) within 6 weeks and had to pay my attorney fees in addition to the P&I. I got the first vacant parcel in October, the second in November, and the third today in December.
My original goal was to offer all three to investors/builders, but I did put the first two on Zillow as FSBO while I waited for the third one to complete. Already have a person going to drive by one this weekend and they are a cash buyer. Similar lots in the neighborhood sold for $5k up to $20k in the past year. The one I got today is the best as lots near it sold for over $20k in the past 18 months.
I also will contact the neighbors of the lots and see if they want to buy them.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jerry K.:
I have been doing Arizona tax liens since 2010. @Jay Hinrichs is correct about liens - they rarely end up foreclosing in AZ. I just got my third vacant residential parcel through foreclosure today. All 3 foreclosures happened this year and are in Yavapai county north of Phoenix. I buy liens on structures and vacant land. I'm mainly after the interest rate return, not the property. Vacant land in AZ (outside of Phoenix - Maricopa County) get pretty high rates of return. I avoid Maricopa because of the lower rates and all the competition. Plenty for me outside of that county.
These 3 liens were 16% and actually there were 4 I had to foreclose on because the statute of limitations on my liens were about to expire. One person paid off to redeem and it was 10 years of taxes at 16%. Don't get excited - the taxes were about $150 per year the last few years, but the early years were better. I had to pay each year's taxes and got 16% on all years. The interest was greater than the principal when they paid off.I filed in January for foreclosure using Mark Manoil as my attorney who specializes in tax liens in Phoenix. The first one paid off (redeemed) within 6 weeks and had to pay my attorney fees in addition to the P&I. I got the first vacant parcel in October, the second in November, and the third today in December.
My original goal was to offer all three to investors/builders, but I did put the first two on Zillow as FSBO while I waited for the third one to complete. Already have a person going to drive by one this weekend and they are a cash buyer. Similar lots in the neighborhood sold for $5k up to $20k in the past year. The one I got today is the best as lots near it sold for over $20k in the past 18 months.
I also will contact the neighbors of the lots and see if they want to buy them.
CA OR WA are all tax Deed states they dont sell liens.. the tax sale is once a year and once you are the winning bidder you get a tax collector deed in about 2 to 5 weeks you record it you own it.. now getting title insurance is another matter. We were able to get title insurance right after the sale based on the volume of bizz we brought the title company one off investors may not have the same expreince there is a tax deed title insurer but many lenders wont rely on it. So based on all that VERY few houses go to sale in each county thier might be on to 5 houses on the sale the rest will be vacant land. Of course there will be more houses in the beginning but by the time of the auction poof they are gone redeemed.
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
Originally posted by @Jerry K.:
I have been doing Arizona tax liens since 2010. @Jay Hinrichs is correct about liens - they rarely end up foreclosing in AZ. I just got my third vacant residential parcel through foreclosure today. All 3 foreclosures happened this year and are in Yavapai county north of Phoenix. I buy liens on structures and vacant land. I'm mainly after the interest rate return, not the property. Vacant land in AZ (outside of Phoenix - Maricopa County) get pretty high rates of return. I avoid Maricopa because of the lower rates and all the competition. Plenty for me outside of that county.
These 3 liens were 16% and actually there were 4 I had to foreclose on because the statute of limitations on my liens were about to expire. One person paid off to redeem and it was 10 years of taxes at 16%. Don't get excited - the taxes were about $150 per year the last few years, but the early years were better. I had to pay each year's taxes and got 16% on all years. The interest was greater than the principal when they paid off.I filed in January for foreclosure using Mark Manoil as my attorney who specializes in tax liens in Phoenix. The first one paid off (redeemed) within 6 weeks and had to pay my attorney fees in addition to the P&I. I got the first vacant parcel in October, the second in November, and the third today in December.
My original goal was to offer all three to investors/builders, but I did put the first two on Zillow as FSBO while I waited for the third one to complete. Already have a person going to drive by one this weekend and they are a cash buyer. Similar lots in the neighborhood sold for $5k up to $20k in the past year. The one I got today is the best as lots near it sold for over $20k in the past 18 months.
I also will contact the neighbors of the lots and see if they want to buy them.
Jerry, how did they redeem 10 years worth of taxes, I thought Arizona has a 3 year redemption period?
- Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes4y
@Will Sifert Three years is the minimum period you have to hold the lien before you can foreclose. You have 10 years from the date of purchase to initiate foreclosure. I paid the sub taxes each year and started earning 16% on those taxes. In AZ if you don't initiate a foreclosure before the 10 year deadline, then you lose all your liens on that parcel (principal and interest) - not just the oldest lien.
For a person like me who is looking to maximize interest rate return, I just keep paying the sub taxes and accruing the 16%, making sure I start foreclosure before the 10 year date.
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
Originally posted by @Jerry K.:
@Will Sifert Three years is the minimum period you have to hold the lien before you can foreclose. You have 10 years from the date of purchase to initiate foreclosure. I paid the sub taxes each year and started earning 16% on those taxes. In AZ if you don't initiate a foreclosure before the 10 year deadline, then you lose all your liens on that parcel (principal and interest) - not just the oldest lien.
For a person like me who is looking to maximize interest rate return, I just keep paying the sub taxes and accruing the 16%, making sure I start foreclosure before the 10 year date.
I am a tax lien geek, I find this all so fascinating. In Louisiana we have a 3 year redemption period. During the redemption period, the owner goes to the sheriff's office and fills out a redemption form and pays all of the past taxes and interest etc. 3 years and 1 day, if the owner goes to the sheriff's office to redeem they turn them away. At that point the owner only has two options, contact me and we work out a deal or the owner has to get an attorney and sue to annual the tax sale. Once 3 years has passed I can start the process to confirm the tax sale and quiet title at anytime. Our tax liens never expire. But there is really no point to wait long because once it goes three years it's not about making interest any more, your only way to make money is by getting the property.
So in AZ, you have to wait 3 years before you can start the foreclosure process, but until you do the owner can redeem at any time? After 10 years the lien is cancelled and removed, you lose everything you invested (is that correct?)
Thanks for the info.
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
I second that, we are 100% the same here!
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
Originally posted by @Jerry K.:
I have been doing Arizona tax liens since 2010. @Jay Hinrichs is correct about liens - they rarely end up foreclosing in AZ. I just got my third vacant residential parcel through foreclosure today. All 3 foreclosures happened this year and are in Yavapai county north of Phoenix. I buy liens on structures and vacant land. I'm mainly after the interest rate return, not the property. Vacant land in AZ (outside of Phoenix - Maricopa County) get pretty high rates of return. I avoid Maricopa because of the lower rates and all the competition. Plenty for me outside of that county.
These 3 liens were 16% and actually there were 4 I had to foreclose on because the statute of limitations on my liens were about to expire. One person paid off to redeem and it was 10 years of taxes at 16%. Don't get excited - the taxes were about $150 per year the last few years, but the early years were better. I had to pay each year's taxes and got 16% on all years. The interest was greater than the principal when they paid off.I filed in January for foreclosure using Mark Manoil as my attorney who specializes in tax liens in Phoenix. The first one paid off (redeemed) within 6 weeks and had to pay my attorney fees in addition to the P&I. I got the first vacant parcel in October, the second in November, and the third today in December.
My original goal was to offer all three to investors/builders, but I did put the first two on Zillow as FSBO while I waited for the third one to complete. Already have a person going to drive by one this weekend and they are a cash buyer. Similar lots in the neighborhood sold for $5k up to $20k in the past year. The one I got today is the best as lots near it sold for over $20k in the past 18 months.
I also will contact the neighbors of the lots and see if they want to buy them.
About 1/2 of the residential lots I acquire from tax liens I end up selling to a neighbor. Most of the ones I get I have sold between 18-35K. How much do your attorney's fees roughly cost for a foreclosure? I know it can vary for complicated cases. Here it could cost 3-5K for attorney and court costs. We have a $500 cost to appoint a curator for the owner if he is not found (well if he isn't served). Because of this reason I usually never bid on anything that is worth less than 10K, usually properties that are worth 20K or more. People who bid online from out of state, they have no clue and they bid on all of the cheap properties. Even if they get it, they going to lose money and they bid purposely on the ones that are less likely to redeem. In other states where the county issues the deed for $300 you can get away with buying tax liens on properties worth only a couple thousand dollars, but not in Louisiana.
- Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes4y
@Will Sifert I'll answer your questions from a couple of your responses here;
So in AZ, you have to wait 3 years before you can start the foreclosure process, but until you do the owner can redeem at any time? Yes, the owner can redeem anytime before you foreclose, or during the 10 year window. Also, in most counties now in AZ, they allow multiple owners of tax liens. Used to be if you bought a lien one year and the owner did not pay the next year either, if the lien holder did NOT pay the subtaxes the next year, the original lien was combined with the new lien and both were sold in the next year's auction. Whoever bought the new lien was buying 2 years of taxes. The original lien holder would get their money back plus interest, once the auction was over. Many lien holders used these liens as sort of a "one year CD" (or 2 year etc. depending on how long they may have paid subtaxes before stopping). Now however, if the lien holder does not pay the sub taxes, then they keep their lien, and any new liens on the property are sold separate from the earlier liens. You can have multiple holders of liens. If I did not pay sub taxes and a new lien was sold to somebody else, and if I never foreclosed, the new lien holder could do a foreclosure after their 3 years and I would get paid off from their foreclosure.
After 10 years the lien is cancelled and removed, you lose everything you invested (is that correct?) Correct, the lien holder loses everything after 10 years if they did not foreclose. I originally thought it would be just be the one 10 year old lien, but my lawyer told me it is all subtax liens too.
How much do your attorney's fees roughly cost for a foreclosure? You're right it varies by how much work is needed and different lawyers have different payments. My lawyer wrote a book about Arizona tax liens and title companies trust his foreclosures for doing all the right contacting of any owners and lien holders. AZ is a Judicial Foreclosure on tax liens. It starts at about $2,500 and can go higher. On one of my liens the parcel was owned in an LLC name and that required more time and work. The good news is that in most AZ counties, if the owner, or any other lien holder redeems the tax liens once the foreclosure has begun, they have to pay my attorney fees. That has happened a few times over the years for me.
- Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes4y
Originally posted by @Jerry K.:
@Will Sifert I'll answer your questions from a couple of your responses here;
So in AZ, you have to wait 3 years before you can start the foreclosure process, but until you do the owner can redeem at any time? Yes, the owner can redeem anytime before you foreclose, or during the 10 year window. Also, in most counties now in AZ, they allow multiple owners of tax liens. Used to be if you bought a lien one year and the owner did not pay the next year either, if the lien holder did NOT pay the subtaxes the next year, the original lien was combined with the new lien and both were sold in the next year's auction. Whoever bought the new lien was buying 2 years of taxes. The original lien holder would get their money back plus interest, once the auction was over. Many lien holders used these liens as sort of a "one year CD" (or 2 year etc. depending on how long they may have paid subtaxes before stopping). Now however, if the lien holder does not pay the sub taxes, then they keep their lien, and any new liens on the property are sold separate from the earlier liens. You can have multiple holders of liens. If I did not pay sub taxes and a new lien was sold to somebody else, and if I never foreclosed, the new lien holder could do a foreclosure after their 3 years and I would get paid off from their foreclosure.
After 10 years the lien is cancelled and removed, you lose everything you invested (is that correct?) Correct, the lien holder loses everything after 10 years if they did not foreclose. I originally thought it would be just be the one 10 year old lien, but my lawyer told me it is all subtax liens too.
How much do your attorney's fees roughly cost for a foreclosure? You're right it varies by how much work is needed and different lawyers have different payments. My lawyer wrote a book about Arizona tax liens and title companies trust his foreclosures for doing all the right contacting of any owners and lien holders. AZ is a Judicial Foreclosure on tax liens. It starts at about $2,500 and can go higher. On one of my liens the parcel was owned in an LLC name and that required more time and work. The good news is that in most AZ counties, if the owner, or any other lien holder redeems the tax liens once the foreclosure has begun, they have to pay my attorney fees. That has happened a few times over the years for me.
Jerry thanks for the explanation. The new way that AZ handles the tax liens when the subsequent year is not paid is exactly how we do it in Louisiana. If I purchase a tax lien and then don't pay the next tax bill, it will go back to tax sale the next year. When the next tax lien buyer gets it, my 3 year redemption period starts. Essentially I can do nothing for 3 years while I wait to see if the original owner redeems it from me or not. So, 3 years from the date of the tax sale I purchased it, if the original owner did not redeem then their redemption period expired. I could now move forward with my suit to take ownership (which sounds very similar to your judicial foreclosure). But I have to redeem from the tax lien buyer who came after me prior to 3 years from the date that he bought the lien from me, or I lose everything. He could then start the suit to take ownership and would include me and the original owner, to quiet title against us. In that case I would lose the money I spent when I bought my tax lien.
It's a little complicated to follow, a white board would make it easier. Some people use that as a strategy. If you are trying to acquire property then the more liens you buy the better your odds so some people will spend all of their money on buying liens and not tie any of it up on subsequent year taxes. If the original owner redeems, fine you get your money back plus interest. If it goes 3 years then you redeem from the tax lien buyer after you to get rid of them and then start the suit against the owner. The only down fall is that you going to have to pay a lot of money in interest. Since Louisiana has good interest rates, I prefer to pay the subsequent year taxes so I can make really good interest, instead of having to pay a lot of interest to someone else.
The one thing I am seeing about Louisiana that I really like that most other states don't have is firm redemption period. We have 3 years (technically from the date the tax lien is recorded, not the date of the sale. Which can be 2-3+ weeks after the sale.) But when it hits that 3 year point that's it, the owner can not redeem the property, PERIOD. It sounds like AZ allows them to redeem the property any time, even while you are trying to go through the judicial foreclosure. Here they can't do that. Once their redemption period expires the only thing the owner can do is hire an attorney and sue to try to get the tax sale annulled. This gives the tax lien buyer a lot of leverage. The owner finds out quickly they are going to have to spend 5-10K or more in legal fees trying to fight this. I have settled with people and it has included all my money back plus interest plus a premium. They can either pay me or pay their attorney (and still likely lose the property). Other states, when you apply for a deed after the redemption period the owners can still pop up and redeem. It seems like the purpose of a redemption period in most states is to tell the tax lien buyer when he can start trying to foreclose / apply for a deed. Where as IMO a redemption period should be the time the owner has to redeem the property. When that date expires their ability to redeem should expire with it.
- 4yJohn UnderwoodPro MemberInvestor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
I was looking for a list of the top states to buy tax liens and have not been able to find one.
Top states would have 1 year or less redemption period. Must be in person auction. Bid up auction. No foreclosure or legal proceedings or paperwork to get a tax deed.
What's States have this other than SC?
- 4yTimothy BorgPro MemberMember since 2018 · 85 posts · 24 votes
@Jerry K. I have one of my first liens coming up on the 3-year mark from up in Navajo County, AZ. I am trying to decide if I should just let it sit or start the foreclosure process. It is kind of a strange situation, I only have the lien for that one year. There were not anymore liens sold. I believe the lot was merged together with the lot next door.
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