BIG MISTAKE....in Tiburon-Marin County. Investor bought the HOA pool.

BIG MISTAKE....in Tiburon-Marin County. Investor bought the HOA pool.

Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes

Can the county supervisors undo the sale?  Seems like a similar thing happened in San Francisco 5-6 years ago.  I followed that case closely at the time.  They did undo that sale.  Not sure the final outcome, but I'm guessing that is a case where you think things are risk free, but I expect the purchaser was out significant legal fees that were not reimbursed and ended up not getting the property.

I've always thought about this in the rare instance that a super nice and super valuable property goes to sale with a mortgage on it.  I don't think Mr. Big 3 bank is going to just let this go.  They're going to fight and very well might get the property back.   While we are reading about fun cases, there is a frequent buyer in Texas that just took a case to the SCOTUS, but they declined to hear it.  Not sure what that costs.  From what I remember his purchase was rescinded on what must of been a pretty s valuable property.   Not sure where the ad litem attorneys stand in all this.  Sometimes maybe often times they aren't doing enough to track down the owner or owner's heirs and just collecting checks from the court.

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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
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Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
1y
Quote from @Bruce Lynn:

Can the county supervisors undo the sale?  Seems like a similar thing happened in San Francisco 5-6 years ago.  I followed that case closely at the time.  They did undo that sale.  Not sure the final outcome, but I'm guessing that is a case where you think things are risk free, but I expect the purchaser was out significant legal fees that were not reimbursed and ended up not getting the property.

I've always thought about this in the rare instance that a super nice and super valuable property goes to sale with a mortgage on it.  I don't think Mr. Big 3 bank is going to just let this go.  They're going to fight and very well might get the property back.   While we are reading about fun cases, there is a frequent buyer in Texas that just took a case to the SCOTUS, but they declined to hear it.  Not sure what that costs.  From what I remember his purchase was rescinded on what must of been a pretty s valuable property.   Not sure where the ad litem attorneys stand in all this.  Sometimes maybe often times they aren't doing enough to track down the owner or owner's heirs and just collecting checks from the court.


 we have a FC coming up where lets say the loan was $500k and the property is worth $1.5M. People are chomping at the bit thinking they are going to get a steal for this property and they keep calling us as the lender. When we tell them our opening bid is $1.5M they try and negotiate off the $500k because that was the original loan balance but due to other circumstances like modifications etc. the loan balance has increased significantly.  We see people thinking they will make the quick buck.

We also had a second position loan we foreclosed on and the buyer did not realize there was a first position loan - they called us wanting their money back.... 

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  • Melanie P.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 922 votes
    1y

    In California the right of redemption expires the day before the tax sale takes place. The city screwed up and liened Direct Charges on the common area which has an assessed value placeholder of $1. 

    The purchaser is going to be out all their time, legal fees, fees for setting up their Wyoming entity, etc. They'll receive back only the bid amount. The sad part of this story is if any other taxpayer failed to update their address and a lien was sold, nobody would pay any attention to reversing that sale. Any individual would be out their real estate. But because an HOA made the mistake and the county operated a crooked auction the purchase will just get back what they bid, $6600.

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    1y

    I see so many people who don't understand what they are bidding on.

    They don't do the research, they don't drive by to see that the Google st view is not accurate and they put down a bunch of cash on a bad property. 

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Bruce Lynn:

    Can the county supervisors undo the sale?  Seems like a similar thing happened in San Francisco 5-6 years ago.  I followed that case closely at the time.  They did undo that sale.  Not sure the final outcome, but I'm guessing that is a case where you think things are risk free, but I expect the purchaser was out significant legal fees that were not reimbursed and ended up not getting the property.

    I've always thought about this in the rare instance that a super nice and super valuable property goes to sale with a mortgage on it.  I don't think Mr. Big 3 bank is going to just let this go.  They're going to fight and very well might get the property back.   While we are reading about fun cases, there is a frequent buyer in Texas that just took a case to the SCOTUS, but they declined to hear it.  Not sure what that costs.  From what I remember his purchase was rescinded on what must of been a pretty s valuable property.   Not sure where the ad litem attorneys stand in all this.  Sometimes maybe often times they aren't doing enough to track down the owner or owner's heirs and just collecting checks from the court.


     we have a FC coming up where lets say the loan was $500k and the property is worth $1.5M. People are chomping at the bit thinking they are going to get a steal for this property and they keep calling us as the lender. When we tell them our opening bid is $1.5M they try and negotiate off the $500k because that was the original loan balance but due to other circumstances like modifications etc. the loan balance has increased significantly.  We see people thinking they will make the quick buck.

    We also had a second position loan we foreclosed on and the buyer did not realize there was a first position loan - they called us wanting their money back.... 

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  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    1y

    Sounds like the county failed on multiple levels including not giving proper notice, not sending notices to the correct address, etc.  hopefully the county gets it act together.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Melanie P.:

    In California the right of redemption expires the day before the tax sale takes place. The city screwed up and liened Direct Charges on the common area which has an assessed value placeholder of $1. 

    The purchaser is going to be out all their time, legal fees, fees for setting up their Wyoming entity, etc. They'll receive back only the bid amount. The sad part of this story is if any other taxpayer failed to update their address and a lien was sold, nobody would pay any attention to reversing that sale. Any individual would be out their real estate. But because an HOA made the mistake and the county operated a crooked auction the purchase will just get back what they bid, $6600.


    OK i have real experince at this having bought CA tax sales for decades.. First your  correct the sale is done once you put your money up at the auction and there is NO right of redemption in CA.. The only way to reverse these is to prove the tax collector screwed up on notification and that is primarily done by counting the days in the newpaper.. they must publish for 21 consecutive days prior to the sale. Failure to receive notice in the mail does not count its up to the owners to pay their tax.. So the HOA is at fault there.
    the way these get over turned is through litigation not the country supervisors cancelling the sale they have no power to do that only a Judge does. One reason is the county is simply an agent for the State real property tax's are state funds then deligated back to the counties.

    I bought on in about 85 in Northern CA .. and circumstances were a lot like this.. It was a big alternative church property you know mind benders. one parcel in the middle of their campus 20 acres. they acquired from an owner sub too the back taxs and they never paid 1/2 of one years tax's prior to coming into title.. They thought since they were a church they did not owe any tax and just ignored.. It goes to sale and we bought it for 125k. not a small sum for tax sales in 85.  they litigated and it came out at the end of the trial when it dawned on their attorney that county tax collector screwed up and only published 19 days not 21. So judge looks it over and ruled against us right on the bench.. Boom we got our 125k back lost our attorneys fees and the sale was unwound. about 150 parcels sold that year in that county and everyone of them could have been over turned but everyone who lost a property would have had to bring their own litigation.  

    Now that was 85 and maybe there is new case law but thats how it was then . So I would be surprised if the HOA cant prove publishing error if this gets reversed or how the county superviors can over turn a sale for dollars owed to the state.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y

    Bruce there is also that famous case in San Fran  in the Seacliff area of 5 to 30 mil homes and someone bought their right of way on a small private street and were trying to block them off and then of course sell it back to these folks. Not sure what the out come was but it made headline news.

    reality thought 99% of tax sales for little strips of land are just wasting money.

  • Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

    Bruce there is also that famous case in San Fran  in the Seacliff area of 5 to 30 mil homes and someone bought their right of way on a small private street and were trying to block them off and then of course sell it back to these folks. Not sure what the out come was but it made headline news.

    I think that was the one I was following a few years ago. I reached out to the buyer several times from what I remember, but they never responded. I wanted to go to hearings/trial, but never went out there. I think it was a couple from San Jose area that bought it. If I remember right they ended up having a hearing at the board of supervisors and I watched it online. Attorney for HOA said it was pretty easy to find the HOA address and the county should have done more to hunt them down. They got that sale rescinded. I'm kind of thinking the buyer represented themselves and acted a bit innocent. Defense was just something like I just wanted to buy a part of San Francisco for cheap, I wasn't planning to do anything sinister. In my devious mind, I thinking like you that I hire a parking attendant, install gates and charge an entrance fee if I bought it. I don't think they had done anything like that or tried before it got rescinded. However I'm thinking if I ever hit the windfall on something like this, their pockets are probably way deeper than mine and I'm not going to want to spend the money to fight it.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Bruce Lynn:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

    Bruce there is also that famous case in San Fran  in the Seacliff area of 5 to 30 mil homes and someone bought their right of way on a small private street and were trying to block them off and then of course sell it back to these folks. Not sure what the out come was but it made headline news.

    I think that was the one I was following a few years ago. I reached out to the buyer several times from what I remember, but they never responded. I wanted to go to hearings/trial, but never went out there. I think it was a couple from San Jose area that bought it. If I remember right they ended up having a hearing at the board of supervisors and I watched it online. Attorney for HOA said it was pretty easy to find the HOA address and the county should have done more to hunt them down. They got that sale rescinded. I'm kind of thinking the buyer represented themselves and acted a bit innocent. Defense was just something like I just wanted to buy a part of San Francisco for cheap, I wasn't planning to do anything sinister. In my devious mind, I thinking like you that I hire a parking attendant, install gates and charge an entrance fee if I bought it. I don't think they had done anything like that or tried before it got rescinded. However I'm thinking if I ever hit the windfall on something like this, their pockets are probably way deeper than mine and I'm not going to want to spend the money to fight it.


    OH ya the sf neighborhood were top earners billionaires multi millionaires and same with Tiburoun maybe not billionares but very rich.  Like Andre Agassi lives or lived in Tibouron those type of folks. Its an island sticking out in the SF bay..
  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    1y

    @Jay Hinrichs and @Bruce Lynn

    I remembered that deal too so had to look it up…

    original deal:

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/08/us/couple-buys-san-francisco-.... 

    2015 this time. They actually failed to pay taxes in 1983 as well according to the follow up article below. 2 years later in 2017 the County reversed the sale voting 7-4 against “these out of town speculators trying to make a big payday” and for the fine people of their district. 

    https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/SF-supervisors-to-vo...

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Bill B.:

    @Jay Hinrichs and @Bruce Lynn

    I remembered that deal too so had to look it up…

    original deal:

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/08/us/couple-buys-san-francisco-.... 

    2015 this time. They actually failed to pay taxes in 1983 as well according to the follow up article below. 2 years later in 2017 the County reversed the sale voting 7-4 against “these out of town speculators trying to make a big payday” and for the fine people of their district. 

    https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/SF-supervisors-to-vo...


    well if the county sups could unravel it then the rules have certainly changed from my days of buying CA tax sales in the 60 70s and 80s.. once they went to bid 4 assets and away from the live auction the screaming deals were done.
  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    1y

    As everyone should see from the above posts, investing in real estate, especially foreclosure and tax sales, REQUIRES a working knowledge of legal aspects that can possibly affect the purchase.  

    Here’s the bottom line:  Long term success as a real estate investor or real estate business owner requires knowledge of (1) real estate principles (2) real estate finance and (3) real estate law.  Without this foundation any money spent on gurus, courses, books mentorships that teach techniques and methods is WASTED, even if the methodology being taught is valid.  What these $20 - 40k “mentorship’s” sell is a SHORTCUT, but it does NOT work because the PRIMARY real estate education and knowledge MUST be there in order to be able to implement and strategy or tactic correctly, at the correct time, and under the correct conditions.  

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  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:

    As everyone should see from the above posts, investing in real estate, especially foreclosure and tax sales, REQUIRES a working knowledge of legal aspects that can possibly affect the purchase.  

    Here’s the bottom line:  Long term success as a real estate investor or real estate business owner requires knowledge of (1) real estate principles (2) real estate finance and (3) real estate law.  Without this foundation any money spent on gurus, courses, books mentorships that teach techniques and methods is WASTED, even if the methodology being taught is valid.  What these $20 - 40k “mentorship’s” sell is a SHORTCUT, but it does NOT work because the PRIMARY real estate education and knowledge MUST be there in order to be able to implement and strategy or tactic correctly, at the correct time, and under the correct conditions.  

    Investing in real estate, particularly through avenues like foreclosures and tax sales, indeed requires a solid understanding of multiple aspects, including legal considerations. The importance of grasping real estate principles, finance, and law cannot be overstated but often are ignored because someone spent a weekend at a seminar. These foundational elements enable you to navigate transactions successfully and make informed decisions.

    While there are many resources available, including courses and mentorships, the reality is that without a foundational knowledge base, you might struggle to apply what you've learned effectively in real-world scenarios. Programs that market themselves as shortcuts often cannot replace the depth of understanding that comes from study, experience, and engagement with the legal framework surrounding real estate.

    Consider taking time to familiarize yourself with local laws and regulations. This includes zoning laws, property taxes, and any other legal aspects pertinent to your area. Investing in your education through reputable sources, even if you don’t go for high-priced mentorships, can lead to better long-term success in the real estate market.

    Engaging with local real estate investment groups or seeking out affordable continuing education programs can be great starting points.

    The road to success does not have a shortcut....
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  • Member since 2023 · 51 posts · 48 votes
    1y
    Quote from @John Underwood:

    I see so many people who don't understand what they are bidding on.

    They don't do the research, they don't drive by to see that the Google st view is not accurate and they put down a bunch of cash on a bad property. 


     I was at a live tax deed auction once and the last property up for bid was a dilapidated 70s era mobile home on a leased space in MH park.  The bidding started at $1500 and two bidders were competing with each other as the price exceeded $5k.

    The auction was being run by a law firm, and once the bidding exceeded $5k, the auctioneer stopped the auction and told both bidders "You're bidding on the mobile home and not the lot.  You will have to either rent out the unit, live in it, or move it off the lot.  I'll give you 30 seconds to withdraw your bids".  Both bidders immediately withdrew.

    I was quite surprised at both how neither bidder knew what they were bidding on, and that they were given an out before spending their money.

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