Are any of these gurus actually for real?

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Are any of these gurus actually for real?

Chad Clark
Investor · Mancelona, MI · Member since 2019 · 43 posts · 24 votes

I'm curious.  I read about these guys all the time and have pretty much decided that if they are advertising, they probably are snake oil.  I'll give them a shot and then quickly find I either already know way more than them and it's obvious or they are just doing that high pressure sales crap (sorry I was an advertising exec, not gonna work).   Anyone know of any that actually are worth paying for the information?   

I'm at that odd stage where you have a bunch of rentals (mainly single family and duplex types) and want to move into commercial since I can see the ease you can make some real money by making a decent complex into a great one.  After reading a bunch and slowly figuring out the terms like Cap rates, etc, and some legal pitfalls like getting sued over faulty deal (wow I didn't know that was a thing).  I'm slowly realizing this is a whole different ball game and would love to find out more info before I jump in and hope.   I've done a bad deal with a duplex once and I know full well that a lousy deal can be a money pit.   I can't even imagine screwing up when you're talking 7 figures.  I like to be sure I'm not doing something dumb.   I'm too old to screw up my retirement now. 

So any of these guys for real?  It's about the only way I see to start navigating that commercial real estate world.  There's just so many things and I keep finding new ones all the time that go on my due diligence checklist.  Any thoughts are welcome. 

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Doug Smith
Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
11mo

Interesting story about that. Right after the last crash, we were operating a successful fund that bought severely distressed commercial loans out of banks. I had been a banker for years and we had 2 other bank executive with special assets experience, so we were doing well. I had met some of the gurus at conferences, but none of them actually had experience doing what they were trying to teach. I would listen to them talk and it was obvious that they were much better at selling courses that doing what they were teaching. One of our investors was a nationally-known economist that had published to best-selling books on the economy. He had a massive following on a newsletter that tens of thousands of people paid monthly subscriptions for. His publisher wanted to do a real estate-based "course" and have him teach it. To his credit, he said "I don't know enough about the subject, but I know the guy." I met with the publisher and they wanted me to do these weekend-long courses on buying non-performing loans. They wanted me to create a fund full of crappy assets to sell to my "students". I felt really dirty just being in the room. There is no way I can teach someone what it took me 30 years to learn with the backing of big banks in a weekend. I would be leading lambs to slaughter. I said no and they got a "guru" to do it. It didn't last long. A few years later, I was contacted by a woman who was getting into the space. She was taking courses from a guy that had no credit background, but learned by taking another guru's course. I was speaking at an IMN conference and she approached me after my first talk. The next day I was on a panel and I saw her in the audience along with other students. The guru was sitting in the audience near her with a legal pad taking furious notes. I've yet to meet one that really knows their stuff. Perhaps I should bypass my moral compass and you and I can go in business together "selling courses". LOL. Maybe someday I'll teach for a reasonable price...when I'm retired...but for now I'll be happy managing this company. If you know your stuff, it's more profitable to do than to teach. I've yet to meet a guru with a great background, so whenever I hear "just last year I was flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant, but I found the secret to making money in real estate," I roll my eyes. 

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  • Doug Smith
    Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11mo

    Interesting story about that. Right after the last crash, we were operating a successful fund that bought severely distressed commercial loans out of banks. I had been a banker for years and we had 2 other bank executive with special assets experience, so we were doing well. I had met some of the gurus at conferences, but none of them actually had experience doing what they were trying to teach. I would listen to them talk and it was obvious that they were much better at selling courses that doing what they were teaching. One of our investors was a nationally-known economist that had published to best-selling books on the economy. He had a massive following on a newsletter that tens of thousands of people paid monthly subscriptions for. His publisher wanted to do a real estate-based "course" and have him teach it. To his credit, he said "I don't know enough about the subject, but I know the guy." I met with the publisher and they wanted me to do these weekend-long courses on buying non-performing loans. They wanted me to create a fund full of crappy assets to sell to my "students". I felt really dirty just being in the room. There is no way I can teach someone what it took me 30 years to learn with the backing of big banks in a weekend. I would be leading lambs to slaughter. I said no and they got a "guru" to do it. It didn't last long. A few years later, I was contacted by a woman who was getting into the space. She was taking courses from a guy that had no credit background, but learned by taking another guru's course. I was speaking at an IMN conference and she approached me after my first talk. The next day I was on a panel and I saw her in the audience along with other students. The guru was sitting in the audience near her with a legal pad taking furious notes. I've yet to meet one that really knows their stuff. Perhaps I should bypass my moral compass and you and I can go in business together "selling courses". LOL. Maybe someday I'll teach for a reasonable price...when I'm retired...but for now I'll be happy managing this company. If you know your stuff, it's more profitable to do than to teach. I've yet to meet a guru with a great background, so whenever I hear "just last year I was flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant, but I found the secret to making money in real estate," I roll my eyes. 

    4Reply
    • Ekta Patel
      Rental Property Investor · Macon, GA · Member since 2020 · 37 posts · 20 votes
      8mo
      Quote from @Doug Smith:

      Interesting story about that. Right after the last crash, we were operating a successful fund that bought severely distressed commercial loans out of banks. I had been a banker for years and we had 2 other bank executive with special assets experience, so we were doing well. I had met some of the gurus at conferences, but none of them actually had experience doing what they were trying to teach. I would listen to them talk and it was obvious that they were much better at selling courses that doing what they were teaching. One of our investors was a nationally-known economist that had published to best-selling books on the economy. He had a massive following on a newsletter that tens of thousands of people paid monthly subscriptions for. His publisher wanted to do a real estate-based "course" and have him teach it. To his credit, he said "I don't know enough about the subject, but I know the guy." I met with the publisher and they wanted me to do these weekend-long courses on buying non-performing loans. They wanted me to create a fund full of crappy assets to sell to my "students". I felt really dirty just being in the room. There is no way I can teach someone what it took me 30 years to learn with the backing of big banks in a weekend. I would be leading lambs to slaughter. I said no and they got a "guru" to do it. It didn't last long. A few years later, I was contacted by a woman who was getting into the space. She was taking courses from a guy that had no credit background, but learned by taking another guru's course. I was speaking at an IMN conference and she approached me after my first talk. The next day I was on a panel and I saw her in the audience along with other students. The guru was sitting in the audience near her with a legal pad taking furious notes. I've yet to meet one that really knows their stuff. Perhaps I should bypass my moral compass and you and I can go in business together "selling courses". LOL. Maybe someday I'll teach for a reasonable price...when I'm retired...but for now I'll be happy managing this company. If you know your stuff, it's more profitable to do than to teach. I've yet to meet a guru with a great background, so whenever I hear "just last year I was flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant, but I found the secret to making money in real estate," I roll my eyes. 


      0Reply
  • Jules Aton
    MD/DC · Member since 2024 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11mo

    I’ve always learned best by doing which often meant starting from the bottom and working my way up with a mentor. I don’t think making a few bucks in RE is all that hard but most who think it’s an easy way to create enough wealth to quit their day jobs will be disappointed. 

    0Reply
  • Chad Clark
    OP
    Investor · Mancelona, MI · Member since 2019 · 43 posts · 24 votes
    11mo

    Interestingly, I did make enough off a "few" rentals to quit my job. All out of necessity. The COVID thing hit as I was finishing up on my 2nd rental. I only got into this as a friend wanted to find a rental so his kids wouldn't have to change schools. So I bought a place and we fixed it. I did it again because I ended up turning a house that was 32k auction find into a 260k appraisal. The 3rd was a desperate bidding war over a house that turned out to only need plumbing really. I made off like a bandit with a cheap rental. My 4th was a nightmare duplex, but I worked by myself during the covid thing until it was done. All 4 ended up with over 400% ROI. Probably mostly luck and incredible accidental timing, but it was a thing. So I'm jaded into thinking you can make a fortune off one house. I did. Four times in a row. I'm also a research madman. I'll read into all hours of the night sucking in info like a good book.

    So I hear about these guys and know it "can" be done.  I just haven't seen another like myself do it.  Commercial just seems to have a information vacuum.  I can barely find anything useful about it at all.  No one seems to know anything.  Mortgage experts have their limits.  Bankers won't say much or don't know.  I don't see how you get into these huge places.   Is it literally just 20% down on a few mil?   I can do that, but I was hoping there was another way.  I don't want to sell out of my houses only to fall into a commercial "money pit".  

    I was really hoping one of these wasn't just "selling courses" of snake oil.   You'd think there'd be at least one who was serious.   I did run into some seriously decent people on this little journey, just none in this field.  

    1Reply
  • Arman AhmedPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2024 · 2k+ posts · 975 votes
    11mo

    @Chad Clark

    You’re right, a lot of the “gurus” are more about hype than real actionable info. The best way to learn is by connecting with experienced investors, reading real case studies, and actually analyzing deals yourself. For someone in your stage, the Midwest has a ton of opportunities for multi-family and commercial deals that are more affordable and cash-flow-friendly, allowing you to scale without taking excessive risk, especially compared to high-cost coastal markets. Focus on markets where you can safely learn the ropes and build a track record before jumping into larger, seven-figure deals.

    [email protected]614-418-6081
    0Reply
  • Jules Aton
    MD/DC · Member since 2024 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11mo

    @Chad Clark that is so awesome. Did you pay cash? Are you in a VLCOLA?  I’d need 5 doors netting over $4,500 a month before I would consider quitting my day job. Even then I’d probably drop to 0.5FTE and double dip. 

    0Reply
  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11mo

    From what I’ve seen, the gurus who “help” investors get into large multifamily or commercial deals are some of the worst actors in the industry. No course is going to grow your balance sheet, your creditworthiness or give you the experience that's required to properly manage these buildings and handle the adversity that is unavoidable in this business. All they actually teach is underwriting and capital-raising tactics that are frankly disingenuous and often tiptoe right up to the line of misrepresentation.

    I do believe some students join with good intentions. But the moment their websites go live showcasing deals they had little or no involvement in but displayed in a way that makes the average person believe they own those buildings, they become just as complicit as the gurus who taught them. These groups are easy to spot.  Most list the guru as an “advisor” on their website, and a simple Google search of the guru’s name plus “advisor” or “advisory board” turns up a trail of nearly identical sites.

    I’ve scrutinized these programs extensively in these forums. Some students get defensive; the gurus never respond. I despise these programs more than most other “education” models because they teach unqualified people how to misrepresent their experience in order to raise capital. That puts others capital at risk, not only their own. Many of the people selling Section 8 or low-barrier real estate programs are icky as well, but that damage is often contained to the student.

    There’s nothing wrong with the pace you're moving. You’re following the normal progression. Now that you’ve owned singles and duplexes, consider purchasing a quad, a 6 unit or even build a 2-4 unit building.  That's the normal progression. 

    The people I've seen successfully move into larger projects quickly usually fall into two groups. The first are those who spent years working for real estate development/related organizations, learned the business while earning a salary, saved money, and built real capital relationships they're ex employers allow them to tap into. IN many cases they JV with their ex-employers on their first deals when they leave to start their own business. The second group are contractors possessing both financial means and wherewithal who already run profitable construction businesses and eventually decide they'd rather build or renovate for themselves. They can make that jump because they still have meaningful income coming in—something most investors can't rely on if they quit their jobs to chase full-time investing.

    [email protected]
    2Reply
  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11mo

    Start small and make your Big Mistakes Early.

    You already have all the basics down.  Commercial you just need to expand and weigh some more or less.     

    Sounds like your worried about to little detail.  Identify the ones that kill you and hammer those.  If you mess up with the wrong color paint in a bathroom, no big deal.

    Commercials main issues to stress:

    1.  Zoning requirements.

    2.  Market analysis.  Occupancy, rent levels, amenities.  Example if your section 8 is there a grocery store or bussing within walking distance, little parking, etc.  If your young professional- swimming pool, gated, workout facilities, parking, etc

    3. Financing- downpayment 25% down, 5 year balloon with say 20 year amort, versus FHA, etc for SFR.

    4.  Insurance-

    5.  Scaling from an operations standpoint-  there is a point where you need your own on site team, maintenance, accounting, etc. 

    6.  Location, location, location-  what in the area pulls your type of tenants? Section 8, families, young professionals, retirees to your area?
     
    7.  time for lunch.  You will have to get more due diligence items by posting your list and asking for input. 

    0Reply
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Henry Clark:

      Start small and make your Big Mistakes Early.

      You already have all the basics down.  Commercial you just need to expand and weigh some more or less.     

      Sounds like your worried about to little detail.  Identify the ones that kill you and hammer those.  If you mess up with the wrong color paint in a bathroom, no big deal.

      Commercials main issues to stress:

      1.  Zoning requirements.

      2.  Market analysis.  Occupancy, rent levels, amenities.  Example if your section 8 is there a grocery store or bussing within walking distance, little parking, etc.  If your young professional- swimming pool, gated, workout facilities, parking, etc

      3. Financing- downpayment 25% down, 5 year balloon with say 20 year amort, versus FHA, etc for SFR.

      4.  Insurance-

      5.  Scaling from an operations standpoint-  there is a point where you need your own on site team, maintenance, accounting, etc. 

      6.  Location, location, location-  what in the area pulls your type of tenants? Section 8, families, young professionals, retirees to your area?
       
      7.  time for lunch.  You will have to get more due diligence items by posting your list and asking for input. 


      Henry you crack me up with your food pics.. I dont eat till noon and I look at these in the morning and you make me very hungry :)
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    • Henry ClarkPro Member
      Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Henry Clark:

      Start small and make your Big Mistakes Early.

      You already have all the basics down.  Commercial you just need to expand and weigh some more or less.     

      Sounds like your worried about to little detail.  Identify the ones that kill you and hammer those.  If you mess up with the wrong color paint in a bathroom, no big deal.

      Commercials main issues to stress:

      1.  Zoning requirements.

      2.  Market analysis.  Occupancy, rent levels, amenities.  Example if your section 8 is there a grocery store or bussing within walking distance, little parking, etc.  If your young professional- swimming pool, gated, workout facilities, parking, etc

      3. Financing- downpayment 25% down, 5 year balloon with say 20 year amort, versus FHA, etc for SFR.

      4.  Insurance-

      5.  Scaling from an operations standpoint-  there is a point where you need your own on site team, maintenance, accounting, etc. 

      6.  Location, location, location-  what in the area pulls your type of tenants? Section 8, families, young professionals, retirees to your area?
       
      7.  time for lunch.  You will have to get more due diligence items by posting your list and asking for input. 


      Henry you crack me up with your food pics.. I dont eat till noon and I look at these in the morning and you make me very hungry :)

       Last trip was Croatia.   This trip did Xmas

      Market in Strausborg France for a week.  Doing 6 days in Sicily in Sciacca.  So different time

      Zones.   The above was lunch at a small town traveling. Near the Palermo airport stayed at a great Resort.  About 15 minutes away.  Loved their construction and landscaping.  
      BP please put in a landscaping forum. Also an STR decorating forum.

      Love their modern post rafter, I Beam and cut block walls.  

      0Reply
    • Nate Marshall
      Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 740 votes
      8mo
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Henry Clark:

      Start small and make your Big Mistakes Early.

      You already have all the basics down.  Commercial you just need to expand and weigh some more or less.     

      Sounds like your worried about to little detail.  Identify the ones that kill you and hammer those.  If you mess up with the wrong color paint in a bathroom, no big deal.

      Commercials main issues to stress:

      1.  Zoning requirements.

      2.  Market analysis.  Occupancy, rent levels, amenities.  Example if your section 8 is there a grocery store or bussing within walking distance, little parking, etc.  If your young professional- swimming pool, gated, workout facilities, parking, etc

      3. Financing- downpayment 25% down, 5 year balloon with say 20 year amort, versus FHA, etc for SFR.

      4.  Insurance-

      5.  Scaling from an operations standpoint-  there is a point where you need your own on site team, maintenance, accounting, etc. 

      6.  Location, location, location-  what in the area pulls your type of tenants? Section 8, families, young professionals, retirees to your area?
       
      7.  time for lunch.  You will have to get more due diligence items by posting your list and asking for input. 


      Henry you crack me up with your food pics.. I dont eat till noon and I look at these in the morning and you make me very hungry :)

       For you Jay. 

      1Reply
  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11mo

    OP on your financing keep it all under one lender.

    1. Dont chase 1/2 point. 

    2.   Make sure their Federal Lending Limit is large enough for you to grow.

    3.  Then you can cross collateralize assets.

    4.  See if they will do construction loans or working lines of credit, interest only.  

    The fish and Ravioli were great. 

    0Reply
  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11mo

    Maybe one of you BP folks can tell me how to use the Bidet thing.  

    I think this floor tile will only work in Sicily so I wouldn't try in a U.S. STR.

    0Reply
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Henry Clark:

      Maybe one of you BP folks can tell me how to use the Bidet thing.  

      I think this floor tile will only work in Sicily so I wouldn't try in a U.S. STR.


      those floors work in south west and Cabo type areas.
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  • Nate Marshall
    Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 740 votes
    10mo

    100% NO! 

    0Reply
  • Jenna Moore
    Member since 2026 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    9mo

    @Chad Clark check out Sam Primm on the Skool site: 

    great community and he provides a lot of free education.  He's in there everyday and talks to everyone.

    0Reply
  • Erik EstradaBusiness Member
    Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2022 · 7k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9mo
    Quote from @Chad Clark:

    I'm curious.  I read about these guys all the time and have pretty much decided that if they are advertising, they probably are snake oil.  I'll give them a shot and then quickly find I either already know way more than them and it's obvious or they are just doing that high pressure sales crap (sorry I was an advertising exec, not gonna work).   Anyone know of any that actually are worth paying for the information?   

    I'm at that odd stage where you have a bunch of rentals (mainly single family and duplex types) and want to move into commercial since I can see the ease you can make some real money by making a decent complex into a great one.  After reading a bunch and slowly figuring out the terms like Cap rates, etc, and some legal pitfalls like getting sued over faulty deal (wow I didn't know that was a thing).  I'm slowly realizing this is a whole different ball game and would love to find out more info before I jump in and hope.   I've done a bad deal with a duplex once and I know full well that a lousy deal can be a money pit.   I can't even imagine screwing up when you're talking 7 figures.  I like to be sure I'm not doing something dumb.   I'm too old to screw up my retirement now. 

    So any of these guys for real?  It's about the only way I see to start navigating that commercial real estate world.  There's just so many things and I keep finding new ones all the time that go on my due diligence checklist.  Any thoughts are welcome. 


     I am still a firm believer if someone actually figured out a way to "hack" the system, the fee for a course is minimal compared to what they would earn exploiting this "hack" for their own benefit. 

    Usually the courses teach you things that you can easily find on YouTube or an AI search.. 

    When I started originating loans, no one had the time of the day to teach me how to get a prospect from interested to closing. There were a few courses and brokerages that would give you a few nuggets here and there, but nothing concrete or road map like that will get you to the high success levels you aim for. Over time, you start figuring out that the actual industry itself has a lot of bad players that find loopholes and "get rich quickly". The ones that did it "the right way" have many years in the business, a positive standing reputation, and a very large book of business over the years. It took them a lot of hard work and sacrifice to get to where they wanted to be. 

    Yes there are a few anomalies that do get high levels of success early on in life but they usually started very early or had a few family members/close friends to accelerate their success. 

    Sometimes you just have to be patient with yourself and really get out there and figure it out as you go. Yes there will be mentors that will happily give you advice for free, but don't depend on any hand holding. Do the work, take the necessary risks, and get information as you go. 

    [email protected]818-269-7983
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  • Garret Rumbea
    Inland Empire, CA · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 80 votes
    8mo

    I get where you're coming from. I've worked with probably 15 or so mentors or coaches over the last decade. Some I paid thousands for and it was a flop. Others helped me grow my previous business to mid 6 figures. 

    For me, paying for mentorship has been a way to speed up the process. That doesn't mean they were all amazing. Some felt like a waste. But most helped in some way, whether it was what was taught or the relationships that came from it. Looking back, my progress probably would've been slower without them. 

    If I could do it differently, I would do way more due diligence before hiring anyone. Talk to multiple students/clients. Ask hard questions. Hear directly from them (not testimonials). 

    Sales and marketing is a part of the game though. I ran a successful business myself and I've seen people with worse products/services outperform simply because their marketing was stronger. Doesn't make it right, but that's the reality. Hence why I feel that you gotta vet people carefully. 

    I almost got taken for mid to high 5 figures early on, but luckily I backed out. Later found someone who wasn't the sole reason I'm where I am today, but def played a role in helping me level up and meet the right people.

    So I wouldn't say they're all scams, but I would say heavy due diligence is a non-negotiable, esp when you're talking 7 figure assets, retirement money and other people's livelihood.

    1Reply
  • Eric Gerakos
    Investor · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8mo

    They're for real all right. And the money you waste taking their courses will be real as well. 

    0Reply
  • Nate Marshall
    Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 740 votes
    8mo

    I've only paid for one and it is why I am still here 8 years later. Well worth it. 

    0Reply
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