Why BRRRR is dead....

Why BRRRR is dead....

Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes

Every time someone calls me and says: hey, I am an OOS investor and want to BRRRR in Milwaukee, I cringe. An investor friendly agent is supposed to be excited and send them a list of deals, right? Or tell the truth??

The great days of BRRRR are gone. 

The compression of inventory over the last 10 years has gradually restricted the discounts on the buying side. If inventory is low and competition is high, properties in poor condition will sell for almost as much as properties in great condition. For a good BRRRR you need at least half off ARV, that means buying a 200k home for 100k and fixing it for under 50, that is just not realistic anymore. It will sell for 185k as is to a first time home buyer with a handy family, who has no idea how much time and money it will eventually cost him to complete a full gut rehab.

I know, because I have been BRRRR-ing in Milwaukee since before Brandon Turner coined the term. Deals (by text book standards, full cash recycle) have gone from almost everywhere to complete unicorns. The days of "free-vesting" are gone, we are back to in-vesting, which requires capital.

People are still telling me it works, but when you look closer, they cheat themselves by patching a roof instead of replacing it, installing a new kitchen, but not the replacing plumbing, to save on expenses. Or you go into D neighborhoods and tell yourself it is a class C. 

Rehab and value add will always be a thing, I have 2 projects in the works now and rents will be higher after, but you can pretty much strike the last R in BRRRR: a full repeat with the same cash is not going to happen, especially if home prices start going sideways.

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Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
3y

BRRRR days are not gone, a BRRRR is only as good as the deal you find. If you don't find the deal you can't do it. Just because there aren't 10 sitting on the market right now doesn't mean you can't find it

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  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    Not sure if it’s dead but I see your point. It might have a terminal forecast, maybe it’s on life support. Haha. But yeah I know what you mean about finding a client a deal. If I had a dollar for everyone asking me to find them a deal… heck if I had just 1 solid deal for everyone asking… I’d have tripled my sales. I do believe deals are created not found. And for many there’s going to have to be some serious DIY, sweat equity to make it a home run. And a willingness to call a brrrr a success with 5-10% left in the deal… still beats 20% down all day. I’ve considered going with rate term refi instead of cash out and then strategically doing the cash out in a few years, more as a portfolio refinance or cross collateral move. I think that was the original brrr back in the day and for awhile we just have been spoiled on doing it rapidly one property at a time. 

  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    BRRRR days are not gone, a BRRRR is only as good as the deal you find. If you don't find the deal you can't do it. Just because there aren't 10 sitting on the market right now doesn't mean you can't find it

  • Jon KellyPro Member
    Investor · Bethlehem, PA · Member since 2016 · 929 posts · 951 votes
    3y

    @Marcus Auerbach I appreciate where you're coming from. It's likely more frustrating for you because you're dealing with new investors expecting a massive list of deals with infinite returns. 

    However, BRRRR days are not gone. The idea of buying a distressed property, rehabbing, renting, refinancing is a strategy that will never go away. What should change in this market is the ROI expectations. Some people think the only way to BRRRR is by refinancing all of your capital out of the deal. Your return in that scenario is infinite. However, even leaving 5-10% of cash in the deal still makes it very attractive and you can achieve 30%+ CoC ROI.

    For example: purchase for $150k, rehab for $50k, ARV is $250k. At 75% cashout you pull out $187.5k. You only have $12.5k left in the deal. Assuming it cashflows $300/mo then you're making 29% CoC ROI

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    Inventory is coming back as are deals (although on the MLS, it's certainly a lot more challenging). A bigger problem with BRRRR right now is the DSCR requirements on the back end loan given how much rates have gone up recently.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    @Marcus Auerbach There must be at least some properties out there that are cheap enough still...what with prices dropping (in some areas)?

    Or could this be area specific?

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Eliott Elias:

    BRRRR days are not gone, a BRRRR is only as good as the deal you find. If you don't find the deal you can't do it. Just because there aren't 10 sitting on the market right now doesn't mean you can't find it

    Amen brother 
  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nate Sanow:

    Not sure if it’s dead but I see your point. It might have a terminal forecast, maybe it’s on life support. Haha. But yeah I know what you mean about finding a client a deal. If I had a dollar for everyone asking me to find them a deal… heck if I had just 1 solid deal for everyone asking… I’d have tripled my sales. I do believe deals are created not found. And for many there’s going to have to be some serious DIY, sweat equity to make it a home run. And a willingness to call a brrrr a success with 5-10% left in the deal… still beats 20% down all day. I’ve considered going with rate term refi instead of cash out and then strategically doing the cash out in a few years, more as a portfolio refinance or cross collateral move. I think that was the original brrr back in the day and for awhile we just have been spoiled on doing it rapidly one property at a time. 


    You are right about the definition of success Nate. Most of my personal BRRRs over the last 2 years or so ended up with 5% to 10% equity, instead of the text book 25% for infinite return. Not only does it beat 20% down, but now I also have a 60 year old house with the clock reset to zero on all major components. Plus it gets top rent and attracts A+ tenants and the asset has excellent long term projections. That is a reasonably good outcome for me, but not the expectation many people have from reading about what used to be the norm, which is full cash recycle..

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Eliott Elias:

    BRRRR days are not gone, a BRRRR is only as good as the deal you find. If you don't find the deal you can't do it. Just because there aren't 10 sitting on the market right now doesn't mean you can't find it


    You are talking about 2012! You had to decide which one, because there were too many. BRRR still works, the last R is gone - meaning the repeat with your full initial capital. What's a good spread on a BRRR deal in Austin right now, meaning purchase price vs ARV? I see you guys are rapidly piling up inventory and a lot of it is brand new construction. What do you see?

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    @Marcus Auerbach There must be at least some properties out there that are cheap enough still...what with prices dropping (in some areas)?

    Or could this be area specific?


    Yes it is area specific for sure! Milwaukee is still at 102.1% list to sale ratio, most other markets are down to 98% or less and days on market go up quickly, meaning you can start negotiate. 

    It's tough to "make" a deal if the seller get's 3 offers in 2 days... our market is much slower too compared to spring, 10-20 offers was kind of normal and 10% over asking a good starting point. You can still do a buy&rehab, but you actually will have to leave money in the deal invested, at least short term. We will see where values are going to be here in 10 years, I am very optimistic on that end!

  • Rental Property Investor · Damascus, MD · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 31 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

    The great days of BRRRR are gone. 

    The compression of inventory over the last 10 years has gradually restricted the discounts on the buying side. If inventory is low and competition is high, properties in poor condition will sell for almost as much as properties in great condition. For a good BRRRR you need at least half off ARV, that means buying a 200k home for 100k and fixing it for under 50, that is just not realistic anymore. It will sell for 185k as is to a first time home buyer with a handy family, who has no idea how much time and money it will eventually cost him to complete a full gut rehab.

    The thing I don't understand about this is that you can easily find properties in the Milwaukee area for less than $100,000 on zillow and other web sites.  I've seen some for as low as $40,000.

    Do real estate agents just not consider these properties?

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    Inventory is coming back as are deals (although on the MLS, it's certainly a lot more challenging). A bigger problem with BRRRR right now is the DSCR requirements on the back end loan given how much rates have gone up recently.


    Exactly, it's not the lack of deals, it's the financing. You can tell the difference between those who are talking about the market and those who are actually purchasing or trying to purchase investment properties. A 1.25 DSC requirement at 3-4% rates may have generated a LTV of 75-80+% whereas 6-7+% interest rates generates an LTV of 50-60% with a 1.25 DSC requirement. Transactions will be way down until rates and/or prices decline.

  • Alicia MarksPro Member
    Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    I've only done infinite return deals, and I am still very actively investing. I don't do a lot of deals, I do smart ones. That being said, I'd be okay with not getting all of my money out if I still felt the long term gains were worth it. No doubt it is getting harder to have both fully returned capital and a cash flowing asset due to the rising rates. The people I see succeeding at both are using private investors for long term financing. 

  • Jeff CopelandBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Tampa Bay/St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    As @Jon Kelly explained above, you don't have to refinance 100% of your original capital out of a deal for it to be a successful BRRRR (and such homeruns have always been a needle in a haystack). 

    I can show you case studies of SFH investment properties that were ultimately purchased with only 10% equity left in the deal, and small commercial multifamily properties with less than 4% equity. Happy to share these with anyone who is interested, and they are certainly not failures! 

    Admittedly, it's a longer and windier road to get there, but there is almost no other way to acquire these types of assets with that type of down payment. 

    Copeland Morgan LLC4.770 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2017 · 60 posts · 40 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Sam Bhattacharya:
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

    The great days of BRRRR are gone. 

    The compression of inventory over the last 10 years has gradually restricted the discounts on the buying side. If inventory is low and competition is high, properties in poor condition will sell for almost as much as properties in great condition. For a good BRRRR you need at least half off ARV, that means buying a 200k home for 100k and fixing it for under 50, that is just not realistic anymore. It will sell for 185k as is to a first time home buyer with a handy family, who has no idea how much time and money it will eventually cost him to complete a full gut rehab.

    The thing I don't understand about this is that you can easily find properties in the Milwaukee area for less than $100,000 on zillow and other web sites.  I've seen some for as low as $40,000.

    Do real estate agents just not consider these properties?

    Anything at that price point most likely is in a C- to D Neighborhood. Milwaukee is very block to block sensitive, making it extra important to have someone who has lived in the city long enough to know which ones are great, good, fair, and downright bad. I have lived here for almost 20 years and I still learn more every time I drive around. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    I agree 100%. When a client tells me they want to brrr I am honest with them that its unlikely and share the better option which is buy, rehab cosmetics, raise rents and you have yourself a great investment. I also recommend a heloc to help grow which gives a partial brrr.

    The realtors saying brrr days arent gone come on. I have seen the deals many realtors on here send out and the numbers are mostly unrealistic. At 7.5% investment rates none of these will cashflow after you brrr it out.


  • Rental Property Investor · Damascus, MD · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 31 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Tyler Haanen:
    Quote from @Sam Bhattacharya:
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

    The great days of BRRRR are gone. 

    The compression of inventory over the last 10 years has gradually restricted the discounts on the buying side. If inventory is low and competition is high, properties in poor condition will sell for almost as much as properties in great condition. For a good BRRRR you need at least half off ARV, that means buying a 200k home for 100k and fixing it for under 50, that is just not realistic anymore. It will sell for 185k as is to a first time home buyer with a handy family, who has no idea how much time and money it will eventually cost him to complete a full gut rehab.

    The thing I don't understand about this is that you can easily find properties in the Milwaukee area for less than $100,000 on zillow and other web sites.  I've seen some for as low as $40,000.

    Do real estate agents just not consider these properties?

    Anything at that price point most likely is in a C- to D Neighborhood. Milwaukee is very block to block sensitive, making it extra important to have someone who has lived in the city long enough to know which ones are great, good, fair, and downright bad. I have lived here for almost 20 years and I still learn more every time I drive around. 

    That's kind of what I'm getting from talking to agents in different markets in the midwest.  

    So, the question is if these properties are not good for BRRRR, then can they still be good for flipping? Can you expect the ARV to be around double the purchase price, or is it still a no go for that purpose too?

    Somebody is obviously buying these $40,000 to $50,000 properties in midwest cities.  Actually, this is true of Baltimore too. So, who is buying them if not investors?

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2017 · 60 posts · 40 votes
    3y
  • Deland, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    BRRRR may be a new term but the practice has been going on for at least 40 years


    And is still going

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2019 · 117 posts · 57 votes
    3y

    @Marcus Auerbach I am finding a lot of properties that would qualify as a BRRR but I am just having a hard time figuring out how to get them to cash flow. I have two flips right now where I could pull all of my cash out and more but the cash flow would not be there.

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
    Quote from @Nate Sanow:

    Not sure if it’s dead but I see your point. It might have a terminal forecast, maybe it’s on life support. Haha. But yeah I know what you mean about finding a client a deal. If I had a dollar for everyone asking me to find them a deal… heck if I had just 1 solid deal for everyone asking… I’d have tripled my sales. I do believe deals are created not found. And for many there’s going to have to be some serious DIY, sweat equity to make it a home run. And a willingness to call a brrrr a success with 5-10% left in the deal… still beats 20% down all day. I’ve considered going with rate term refi instead of cash out and then strategically doing the cash out in a few years, more as a portfolio refinance or cross collateral move. I think that was the original brrr back in the day and for awhile we just have been spoiled on doing it rapidly one property at a time. 


    You are right about the definition of success Nate. Most of my personal BRRRs over the last 2 years or so ended up with 5% to 10% equity, instead of the text book 25% for infinite return. Not only does it beat 20% down, but now I also have a 60 year old house with the clock reset to zero on all major components. Plus it gets top rent and attracts A+ tenants and the asset has excellent long term projections. That is a reasonably good outcome for me, but not the expectation many people have from reading about what used to be the norm, which is full cash recycle..


     Well said sir. Well said. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    Inventory is coming back as are deals (although on the MLS, it's certainly a lot more challenging). A bigger problem with BRRRR right now is the DSCR requirements on the back end loan given how much rates have gone up recently.


    EXACTLY  
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Michael Plante:

    BRRRR may be a new term but the practice has been going on for at least 40 years


    And is still going


    yup its how almost all of us HML ers worked or what did I started in the mid 80s my dad in the mid 60s.
  • Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    I don't know that it's dead....I just think it's substantially more difficult.

    I have a very seasoned partner 25+ years in RE. He told me "back in the good ole days" he would go to our local real estate meet ups and he would walk out with as many deals as he wanted. That's it....that's all he had to do for deals back in the day. 

    Today, I have to sacrifice a kidney for a deal. 

    Times will always be changing and evolving and we just have to adjust accordingly. 

  • Andrew PostellPro Member
    Lender · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    3y

    Thank goodness. Hopefully all these people making money from the BRRRR method will go away so I can have it all for myself.

  • Member since 2022 · 1 post · 2 votes
    3y

    I may have been the guy who prompted Marcus' original post.  I'm not experienced, but from what I can see (Zillow, Foreclosure.com etc) there are few if any properties selling anywhere near a price that would make it possible to fully refinance, even after a rehab.  (I know, you have to dig for deals...) And it seems much harder with mortgage rates at 7%.  So probably for most folks a full BRRRR is dead, just like the 1% rule (unless, in both cases you are willing to invest in an unsafe neighborhood).

    But if you rehab and are willing to leave 10-20% in the deal (not fully refinance and repeat), and are willing to be a long term landlord, I'm assuming there are still some cash on cash returns out there that are better than a 3-4% bond rate or 8-10% volatile stock market.  Or am I delusional?  Or perhaps better in a different city?

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