Is BRRRR Dead for Everyone Else?

Is BRRRR Dead for Everyone Else?

Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes

Is BRRRR Dead for Everyone Else?

When I first got into real estate investing, the BRRRR strategy was my bread and butter.

I’d buy older, often heavily distressed properties, gut them, renovate, rent them out, and then refinance to pull my cash back out. It worked great for a long time, I could recycle the same capital over and over again and keep scaling.

Over time, I found ways to pivot a little. I started using commercial loans that offered higher leverage, which meant I could often get into deals with little or no money down. BRRRR wasn't always necessary anymore, but I could still do it when it made sense.

Fast forward to now, and my business has shifted more toward ground-up new construction and build-to-rent projects. BRRRRs are tougher to make pencil. If we build them right, we still capture some equity and minimize the capital we need to bring in,  but we’re definitely not in the same environment we were a few years ago.

I actually just went under contract on what would be a "classic" BRRRR again, a heavily distressed property that's already gutted (which I love, fresh slate). We negotiated a great purchase price, we know our renovation numbers inside and out, and there's solid equity on paper.

The issue? Cash flow.

Even with the equity, the holding cost at today’s rates kills the cash flow. We could flip it, but the market’s slower right now, and I always like to have the option to hold.

At this point, if I’m going to have trapped equity and tight cash flow, I almost prefer just building new, at least I get low maintenance costs and better rent growth potential for the next few years.

So I’m curious, is anyone else seeing the same thing?

Are you still doing BRRRRs successfully right now, or has this higher-rate environment basically killed the model unless you’re finding absolute home-run deals?

Would love to hear what’s working (or not) for others in today’s market.

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Travis TimmonsPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Ellsworth, ME · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10mo

This BRRRR conversation that comes up periodically is a lot like Adam Sandler and Chris Farley in Billy Madison talking about Miss Vaughn.

Agent or lender (usually in a cheap market): I do BRRRRs all the time. 

Seasoned investor: No you don't

Agent or lender: Well, not me personally, but a lot of my clients.

Seasoned investor: No they didn't 

Agent or lender: But you could imagine how cool it would be if they did...

Fact is that most of the on paper BRRRR deals in the past couple of years are polished turds. No matter how much you polish them up, you're still gonna get some crap on your hands.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10mo

    @Chase Calhoun

    I completely agree. I've completed about 30 BRRRR deals over the last ten years. The last couple of years have been greatly reduced. Very difficult to get numbers to work. You can get it to work with cash stuck in the deal. Having cash stuck in a deal is not the worst thing, but you can only do so many of those.

    I haven't ventured into new construction because of the down payment. I do understand the advantage of low maintenance and over time rents will increase as well as new construction will be appealing to tenants. Just not sure the math works that good compared to the BRRRR projects in the past.

    • Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Kenneth Garrett:

      @Chase Calhoun

      I completely agree. I've completed about 30 BRRRR deals over the last ten years. The last couple of years have been greatly reduced. Very difficult to get numbers to work. You can get it to work with cash stuck in the deal. Having cash stuck in a deal is not the worst thing, but you can only do so many of those.

      I haven't ventured into new construction because of the down payment. I do understand the advantage of low maintenance and over time rents will increase as well as new construction will be appealing to tenants. Just not sure the math works that good compared to the BRRRR projects in the past.

      Totally get that, having cash stuck in a deal isn’t the end of the world, but it definitely limits how fast you can scale. I felt the same way for a while, but what pushed me toward new construction was the long-term durability, fewer maintenance headaches, and higher rent premiums. Like anything else, there’s a learning curve, but it’s been worth it. What’s holding you back from trying a ground-up new construction project?

    • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
      Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Chase Calhoun:
      Quote from @Kenneth Garrett:

      @Chase Calhoun

      I completely agree. I've completed about 30 BRRRR deals over the last ten years. The last couple of years have been greatly reduced. Very difficult to get numbers to work. You can get it to work with cash stuck in the deal. Having cash stuck in a deal is not the worst thing, but you can only do so many of those.

      I haven't ventured into new construction because of the down payment. I do understand the advantage of low maintenance and over time rents will increase as well as new construction will be appealing to tenants. Just not sure the math works that good compared to the BRRRR projects in the past.

      Totally get that, having cash stuck in a deal isn’t the end of the world, but it definitely limits how fast you can scale. I felt the same way for a while, but what pushed me toward new construction was the long-term durability, fewer maintenance headaches, and higher rent premiums. Like anything else, there’s a learning curve, but it’s been worth it. What’s holding you back from trying a ground-up new construction project?


      The 20% down on new construction is something I'm not a fan of. I typically use private money for my investments and BRRRR them. Financing all or most of my money out. Am I missing something on this? I'm open to the idea of it, if it makes sense for me.

    • Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Kenneth Garrett:
      Quote from @Chase Calhoun:
      Quote from @Kenneth Garrett:

      @Chase Calhoun

      I completely agree. I've completed about 30 BRRRR deals over the last ten years. The last couple of years have been greatly reduced. Very difficult to get numbers to work. You can get it to work with cash stuck in the deal. Having cash stuck in a deal is not the worst thing, but you can only do so many of those.

      I haven't ventured into new construction because of the down payment. I do understand the advantage of low maintenance and over time rents will increase as well as new construction will be appealing to tenants. Just not sure the math works that good compared to the BRRRR projects in the past.

      Totally get that, having cash stuck in a deal isn’t the end of the world, but it definitely limits how fast you can scale. I felt the same way for a while, but what pushed me toward new construction was the long-term durability, fewer maintenance headaches, and higher rent premiums. Like anything else, there’s a learning curve, but it’s been worth it. What’s holding you back from trying a ground-up new construction project?


      The 20% down on new construction is something I'm not a fan of. I typically use private money for my investments and BRRRR them. Financing all or most of my money out. Am I missing something on this? I'm open to the idea of it, if it makes sense for me.


      Probably something that would be required for the first one or a couple of them to gain the experience. Once you gain the track record you may be able to find lenders, especially local banks that will to 75% or 80% LTV. If you are able to build on budget you may not need to bring as much cash to the table and no need for the refi on the back end. Hardest one is always the first. I always recommend trying to find an experience builder to work with on the first one, you can learn from them and also leverage their experience and maybe even banking relationship.

  • Jake BakerBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 695 votes
    10mo

    @Chase Calhoun

    It has been tough to make things pencil on the back end for us. Very rare to find a "perfect" BRRRR nowadays.

    BookkeepingRE - Bookkeeping for Real Estate & Service-Based Businesses58 Reviews
    • Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Jake Baker:

      @Chase Calhoun

      It has been tough to make things pencil on the back end for us. Very rare to find a "perfect" BRRRR nowadays.

      Totally agree, it’s rare to find a true BRRRR that hits all the marks anymore. Curious, are you guys still actively doing deals and just leaving more equity tied up in them, or have you slowed down buying altogether?
    • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Chase Calhoun:
      Quote from @Jake Baker:

      @Chase Calhoun

      It has been tough to make things pencil on the back end for us. Very rare to find a "perfect" BRRRR nowadays.

      Totally agree, it’s rare to find a true BRRRR that hits all the marks anymore. Curious, are you guys still actively doing deals and just leaving more equity tied up in them, or have you slowed down buying altogether?

      Both. For me that has started about 5 years ago before Covid - total cost often 110% or ARV after full gut rehab. I also tend to over rehab and buy properties above median. But we average about 7% appreciation YTD, that makes up for it.

    • Jake BakerBusiness Member
      Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 695 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Chase Calhoun:
      Quote from @Jake Baker:

      @Chase Calhoun

      It has been tough to make things pencil on the back end for us. Very rare to find a "perfect" BRRRR nowadays.

      Totally agree, it’s rare to find a true BRRRR that hits all the marks anymore. Curious, are you guys still actively doing deals and just leaving more equity tied up in them, or have you slowed down buying altogether?

      We only did two BRRRRs and plan to do the same in 2026. We have pivoted to a co-living model on the rental side to increase cash flow so we want to master the property management of that before scaling too much. I believe BRRRR is still a great value-add strategy that can complement a cash-flow strategy very nicely, whether that is rent-by-the-room, STR/MTR, etc.

      BookkeepingRE - Bookkeeping for Real Estate & Service-Based Businesses58 Reviews
    • Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Jake Baker:
      Quote from @Chase Calhoun:
      Quote from @Jake Baker:

      @Chase Calhoun

      It has been tough to make things pencil on the back end for us. Very rare to find a "perfect" BRRRR nowadays.

      Totally agree, it’s rare to find a true BRRRR that hits all the marks anymore. Curious, are you guys still actively doing deals and just leaving more equity tied up in them, or have you slowed down buying altogether?

      We only did two BRRRRs and plan to do the same in 2026. We have pivoted to a co-living model on the rental side to increase cash flow so we want to master the property management of that before scaling too much. I believe BRRRR is still a great value-add strategy that can complement a cash-flow strategy very nicely, whether that is rent-by-the-room, STR/MTR, etc.


       That's great.  I think co living is a great option for people that are ok with a little extra involvement on the management side.  i have personally never tried it (although tempted a few times), but i have some very good friends whom have done it very successfully.

    • Jake BakerBusiness Member
      Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 695 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Chase Calhoun:
      Quote from @Jake Baker:
      Quote from @Chase Calhoun:
      Quote from @Jake Baker:

      @Chase Calhoun

      It has been tough to make things pencil on the back end for us. Very rare to find a "perfect" BRRRR nowadays.

      Totally agree, it’s rare to find a true BRRRR that hits all the marks anymore. Curious, are you guys still actively doing deals and just leaving more equity tied up in them, or have you slowed down buying altogether?

      We only did two BRRRRs and plan to do the same in 2026. We have pivoted to a co-living model on the rental side to increase cash flow so we want to master the property management of that before scaling too much. I believe BRRRR is still a great value-add strategy that can complement a cash-flow strategy very nicely, whether that is rent-by-the-room, STR/MTR, etc.


       That's great.  I think co living is a great option for people that are ok with a little extra involvement on the management side.  i have personally never tried it (although tempted a few times), but i have some very good friends whom have done it very successfully.


       Agreed. Similar to Airbnb, it takes more involvement on the management side. I have a property management company that manages them now. PMs will charge more than the standard 10-12% for management of these.

      BookkeepingRE - Bookkeeping for Real Estate & Service-Based Businesses58 Reviews
  • Arman AhmedPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2024 · 2k+ posts · 923 votes
    10mo

    @Chase Calhoun

    Hey Chase,

    I hear you, the BRRRR model has definitely shifted in today's higher-rate environment. In the Midwest, though, there are still plenty of opportunities where BRRRRs can work if you focus on off-market, undervalued properties with strong equity potential. Holding costs tend to be lower than coastal markets, so cash flow is more manageable even while rates are higher. It's also easier to find properties where you can renovate smartly and rent at market rates that make the numbers pencil. A lot of investors here are combining BRRRRs with small multi-family or turnkey SFRs to keep capital recycling efficient. It's not dead, just requires a sharper eye for deals and the right local team in place to handle rehabs and property management.

    • Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Arman Ahmed:

      @Chase Calhoun

      Hey Chase,

      I hear you, the BRRRR model has definitely shifted in today's higher-rate environment. In the Midwest, though, there are still plenty of opportunities where BRRRRs can work if you focus on off-market, undervalued properties with strong equity potential. Holding costs tend to be lower than coastal markets, so cash flow is more manageable even while rates are higher. It's also easier to find properties where you can renovate smartly and rent at market rates that make the numbers pencil. A lot of investors here are combining BRRRRs with small multi-family or turnkey SFRs to keep capital recycling efficient. It's not dead, just requires a sharper eye for deals and the right local team in place to handle rehabs and property management.

      That makes a lot of sense, I’ve heard from a few investors that the Midwest still has that balance of lower entry costs and decent rent-to-value ratios, which definitely helps keep the BRRRR model alive. I think you’re spot on about needing the right local team and solid rehab management to make it work. Out of curiosity, are you primarily targeting single-family deals or leaning more toward small multifamily now to keep the numbers strong?
    • Arman AhmedPro Member
      Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2024 · 2k+ posts · 923 votes
      10mo

      @Chase Calhoun 

      In the Midwest, I focus on small multi-families alongside SFRs—multi-families give stronger cash flow, lower per-unit risk, and rehab flexibility, while SFR BRRRRs still exist if you find off-market, undervalued deals. The key is sourcing early, running conservative numbers, and having a reliable local team. Lower entry costs and solid rent-to-value ratios keep the BRRRR model very much alive here.

    • Denise WebsterBusiness Member
      Financial Advisor · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2014 · 82 posts · 30 votes
      10mo

      @Arman Ahmed 

      I completely agree that the fundamentals are still there for investors who run their numbers conservatively.

      I'd also add that the financing strategy behind the BRRRR makes all the difference now. With tighter DSCR thresholds and slower refi turnarounds, many successful investors I work with are blending short-term bridge funding for acquisition and rehab, then transitioning into DSCR or portfolio loans once the property stabilizes.

      That extra flexibility protects liquidity and keeps deals moving even when long-term rates fluctuate.

      The BRRRR model hasn't died — it's just matured. Those who pair smart deal sourcing with creative and well-timed financing are still seeing strong returns.

      Curious if others here have had to adjust their financing timelines or loan structures to keep the model profitable?

      R.E.P. Financial LLC
    • Member since 2025 · 19 posts · 14 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Denise Webster:

      @Arman Ahmed 

      I completely agree that the fundamentals are still there for investors who run their numbers conservatively.

      I'd also add that the financing strategy behind the BRRRR makes all the difference now. With tighter DSCR thresholds and slower refi turnarounds, many successful investors I work with are blending short-term bridge funding for acquisition and rehab, then transitioning into DSCR or portfolio loans once the property stabilizes.

      That extra flexibility protects liquidity and keeps deals moving even when long-term rates fluctuate.

      The BRRRR model hasn't died — it's just matured. Those who pair smart deal sourcing with creative and well-timed financing are still seeing strong returns.

      Curious if others here have had to adjust their financing timelines or loan structures to keep the model profitable

      Thanks, Denise — that perspective really helps connect the dots for me. I’m actually in the early stages of setting up a cash-out DSCR on a paid-off rental here in California’s Central Valley, and I’ve been trying to figure out how to structure it without getting over-extended on holding costs.


      The idea of combining a short-term bridge for acquisition or rehab and then rolling into DSCR or a small portfolio loan makes a lot of sense.


      Since you mentioned flexibility — are you seeing lenders still open to cash-out DSCRs on free-and-clear properties, or has that tightened up lately? I’m hoping to use mine as seed capital for a few small rentals, but don’t want to hit a wall if the appetite for that product has dropped.


      Appreciate the insight — that "BRRRR's not dead, it's just matured" line really landed with me.



    • Denise WebsterBusiness Member
      Financial Advisor · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2014 · 82 posts · 30 votes
      10mo

      @Victor Valencia  Glad that helped, and great question — you’re thinking about it exactly the right way.

      We are still seeing lenders comfortable with cash-out DSCR loans on free-and-clear properties, but the key right now is how the capital will be used and the strength of the rent coverage after refinance. Most lenders have tightened slightly on LTV (typically capping around 70–75%) and want to see a clear reinvestment or portfolio growth plan — which it sounds like you already have in mind.

      Using a short-term bridge for your new acquisitions, then rolling your existing property into a DSCR refi for liquidity, is a smart sequencing move. It keeps your seed capital fluid without overextending your holding costs.

      In short — yes, the appetite’s still there, but lenders are paying more attention to intent and stability of cash flow rather than just equity position.

      Sounds like you’re on the right path. Are you planning to hold those new rentals locally in the Central Valley, or expand to nearby markets too?

      R.E.P. Financial LLC
  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    10mo

    In my market my underwriting shows the same issue. I can add value that could allow me to extract all my investment, but I would have large negative cash flow after the high LTV refi rto extract my investment.

    I recognize not everyone has an up to date profile (my profile does not include my last two acquisitions) but not one person that posted that brrrr are still a viable option has a single brrrr in their profile.   Interesting. They are agents and lenders, but have they actually done a successful Brrrr ever or more relevant in the last couple years?

    By the way I would never do a brrrrr in a cheap market.   It is unlikely you can add enough value to extract all investment or produce a good return for your efforts.

    Good luck

    • Member since 2025 · 19 posts · 14 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Dan H.:

      In my market my underwriting shows the same issue. I can add value that could allow me to extract all my investment, but I would have large negative cash flow after the high LTV refi rto extract my investment.

      I recognize not everyone has an up to date profile (my profile does not include my last two acquisitions) but not one person that posted that brrrr are still a viable option has a single brrrr in their profile.   Interesting. They are agents and lenders, but have they actually done a successful Brrrr ever or more relevant in the last couple years?

      By the way I would never do a brrrrr in a cheap market.   It is unlikely you can add enough value to extract all investment or produce a good return for your efforts.

      Good luck

      Totally appreciate that perspective, Dan — especially your point about cheap markets. I'm just starting out and have been studying the BRRRR model to see if it's even realistic right now.

      I’ve got one property in California that’s paid off, and I’ve been exploring a cash-out DSCR loan as my entry point into scaling, but the math feels just like you described — once the new PITI hits, there's barely any spread left.

      I’m trying to learn from people who’ve been through rate cycles before. If you were in my spot today — asset-rich but income-light — would you still pull some equity to get started, or hold tight until rates ease up?

      Thanks for keeping it real. There’s a lot of noise out there, and your post cuts straight through it.

    • Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Dan H.:

      In my market my underwriting shows the same issue. I can add value that could allow me to extract all my investment, but I would have large negative cash flow after the high LTV refi rto extract my investment.

      I recognize not everyone has an up to date profile (my profile does not include my last two acquisitions) but not one person that posted that brrrr are still a viable option has a single brrrr in their profile.   Interesting. They are agents and lenders, but have they actually done a successful Brrrr ever or more relevant in the last couple years?

      By the way I would never do a brrrrr in a cheap market.   It is unlikely you can add enough value to extract all investment or produce a good return for your efforts.

      Good luck


       Great points.  I think it is great for people to learn and discuss these ideas and investing, but for sure a little different when actually doing and have real life experience/ have risked your own capital.  I'm in a cheaper market but for sure not going for the cheapest properties in the market.  They look good on paper but have more negatives than I personally think they are worth.  Some of which are less bankable, harder to exit if you decided to sell, and more difficult tenant class.

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Victor Valencia:
      Quote from @Dan H.:

      In my market my underwriting shows the same issue. I can add value that could allow me to extract all my investment, but I would have large negative cash flow after the high LTV refi rto extract my investment.

      I recognize not everyone has an up to date profile (my profile does not include my last two acquisitions) but not one person that posted that brrrr are still a viable option has a single brrrr in their profile.   Interesting. They are agents and lenders, but have they actually done a successful Brrrr ever or more relevant in the last couple years?

      By the way I would never do a brrrrr in a cheap market.   It is unlikely you can add enough value to extract all investment or produce a good return for your efforts.

      Good luck

      Totally appreciate that perspective, Dan — especially your point about cheap markets. I'm just starting out and have been studying the BRRRR model to see if it's even realistic right now.

      I’ve got one property in California that’s paid off, and I’ve been exploring a cash-out DSCR loan as my entry point into scaling, but the math feels just like you described — once the new PITI hits, there's barely any spread left.

      I’m trying to learn from people who’ve been through rate cycles before. If you were in my spot today — asset-rich but income-light — would you still pull some equity to get started, or hold tight until rates ease up?

      Thanks for keeping it real. There’s a lot of noise out there, and your post cuts straight through it.


      believe it or not I am asset rich and income light but it is because 1) I Believe in RE leverage so my cash flow is minimized 2) I am “retired” meaning I have no w2 job, my job is managing our assets.

      I am still in the hunt for a good RE investment but I am being very selective and most would consider my underwriting conservative (I hope it is conservative but do not think it is very conservative).  My last few offers were to be STRs that had income that met the 2% monthly rent ratio.   My underwriting showed each of these properties to have initial negative cash flow but projected an OK long term return (far less return than I expected a few years ago).

      I do not understand 0% LTV in properties in average or above appreciation markets. Have you seen what large cap have returned over the last 10 years. Far higher than your interest rate. How about Mag 7? emerging markets are over 30% for 2025 when iloooked recently.

      I would cash out and expect that I can achieve return enough greater to cover expenses of the money (APR). I would be patient to find that rare good RE investment and if does not happen, I would be content with the return from my choice where to keep the money.

      I do want to mention the risk of jumping into any investment in a large chunk.   Virtually all investments have volatility.   If you come in all at once, you really sk coming in at a localized high that could take years to exceed.

      Good luck

    • Member since 2025 · 19 posts · 14 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @Victor Valencia:
      Quote from @Dan H.:

      In my market my underwriting shows the same issue. I can add value that could allow me to extract all my investment, but I would have large negative cash flow after the high LTV refi rto extract my investment.

      I recognize not everyone has an up to date profile (my profile does not include my last two acquisitions) but not one person that posted that brrrr are still a viable option has a single brrrr in their profile.   Interesting. They are agents and lenders, but have they actually done a successful Brrrr ever or more relevant in the last couple years?

      By the way I would never do a brrrrr in a cheap market.   It is unlikely you can add enough value to extract all investment or produce a good return for your efforts.

      Good luck

      Totally appreciate that perspective, Dan — especially your point about cheap markets. I'm just starting out and have been studying the BRRRR model to see if it's even realistic right now.

      I’ve got one property in California that’s paid off, and I’ve been exploring a cash-out DSCR loan as my entry point into scaling, but the math feels just like you described — once the new PITI hits, there's barely any spread left.

      I’m trying to learn from people who’ve been through rate cycles before. If you were in my spot today — asset-rich but income-light — would you still pull some equity to get started, or hold tight until rates ease up?

      Thanks for keeping it real. There’s a lot of noise out there, and your post cuts straight through it.


      believe it or not I am asset rich and income light but it is because 1) I Believe in RE leverage so my cash flow is minimized 2) I am “retired” meaning I have no w2 job, my job is managing our assets.

      I am still in the hunt for a good RE investment but I am being very selective and most would consider my underwriting conservative (I hope it is conservative but do not think it is very conservative).  My last few offers were to be STRs that had income that met the 2% monthly rent ratio.   My underwriting showed each of these properties to have initial negative cash flow but projected an OK long term return (far less return than I expected a few years ago).

      I do not understand 0% LTV in properties in average or above appreciation markets. Have you seen what large cap have returned over the last 10 years. Far higher than your interest rate. How about Mag 7? emerging markets are over 30% for 2025 when iloooked recently.

      I would cash out and expect that I can achieve return enough greater to cover expenses of the money (APR). I would be patient to find that rare good RE investment and if does not happen, I would be content with the return from my choice where to keep the money.

      I do want to mention the risk of jumping into any investment in a large chunk.   Virtually all investments have volatility.   If you come in all at once, you really sk coming in at a localized high that could take years to exceed.

      Good luck

      Thanks, Dan — that’s a really helpful way to frame it.

      I'm leaning toward exactly that: a cautious cash-out, but deploying slowly instead of dumping it all into one deal. My plan is to take one property at a time and use my personal savings each year to build an ADU or value add before refinancing again for the next one. It feels like the only way to stay leveraged and sleep at night in this market.

      Out of curiosity — when you say you’d be “content with the return from your choice where to keep the money,” are you mostly referring to parking cash in equities until the right deal shows up, or keeping it liquid in something like treasuries or MMFs? I’m trying to figure out what makes sense as a temporary parking spot between deals.

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Victor Valencia:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @Victor Valencia:
      Quote from @Dan H.:

      In my market my underwriting shows the same issue. I can add value that could allow me to extract all my investment, but I would have large negative cash flow after the high LTV refi rto extract my investment.

      I recognize not everyone has an up to date profile (my profile does not include my last two acquisitions) but not one person that posted that brrrr are still a viable option has a single brrrr in their profile.   Interesting. They are agents and lenders, but have they actually done a successful Brrrr ever or more relevant in the last couple years?

      By the way I would never do a brrrrr in a cheap market.   It is unlikely you can add enough value to extract all investment or produce a good return for your efforts.

      Good luck

      Totally appreciate that perspective, Dan — especially your point about cheap markets. I'm just starting out and have been studying the BRRRR model to see if it's even realistic right now.

      I’ve got one property in California that’s paid off, and I’ve been exploring a cash-out DSCR loan as my entry point into scaling, but the math feels just like you described — once the new PITI hits, there's barely any spread left.

      I’m trying to learn from people who’ve been through rate cycles before. If you were in my spot today — asset-rich but income-light — would you still pull some equity to get started, or hold tight until rates ease up?

      Thanks for keeping it real. There’s a lot of noise out there, and your post cuts straight through it.


      believe it or not I am asset rich and income light but it is because 1) I Believe in RE leverage so my cash flow is minimized 2) I am “retired” meaning I have no w2 job, my job is managing our assets.

      I am still in the hunt for a good RE investment but I am being very selective and most would consider my underwriting conservative (I hope it is conservative but do not think it is very conservative).  My last few offers were to be STRs that had income that met the 2% monthly rent ratio.   My underwriting showed each of these properties to have initial negative cash flow but projected an OK long term return (far less return than I expected a few years ago).

      I do not understand 0% LTV in properties in average or above appreciation markets. Have you seen what large cap have returned over the last 10 years. Far higher than your interest rate. How about Mag 7? emerging markets are over 30% for 2025 when iloooked recently.

      I would cash out and expect that I can achieve return enough greater to cover expenses of the money (APR). I would be patient to find that rare good RE investment and if does not happen, I would be content with the return from my choice where to keep the money.

      I do want to mention the risk of jumping into any investment in a large chunk.   Virtually all investments have volatility.   If you come in all at once, you really sk coming in at a localized high that could take years to exceed.

      Good luck

      Thanks, Dan — that’s a really helpful way to frame it.

      I'm leaning toward exactly that: a cautious cash-out, but deploying slowly instead of dumping it all into one deal. My plan is to take one property at a time and use my personal savings each year to build an ADU or value add before refinancing again for the next one. It feels like the only way to stay leveraged and sleep at night in this market.

      Out of curiosity — when you say you’d be “content with the return from your choice where to keep the money,” are you mostly referring to parking cash in equities until the right deal shows up, or keeping it liquid in something like treasuries or MMFs? I’m trying to figure out what makes sense as a temporary parking spot between deals.

      >when you say you’d be “content with the return from your choice where to keep the money,” are you mostly referring to parking cash in equities until the right deal shows up, or keeping it liquid in something like treasuries or MMFs? I’m trying to figure out what makes sense as a temporary parking spot between deals.

      I expect you to do the research to determine what is the best investment for you.   N general higher return investments have higher risk.   The choice is very personalized.   Risk adverse people should invest in lower risk investments.  Those that are unbothered by risks and are ok accepting risk for likely better returns should invest consistent with this belief.

      i definitely fall more in the second grouping.   Many years ago when fracking was just starting to be known to the general populace I went virtually all in on mineral rights of wells where fracking had not yet been used.   Going virtually all in on anything requires huevos.   It is not something risk adverse people should consider.

      i will say the population is getting older.   Investments that leverage this are likely to out produce many other options.   

      good luck
  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    10mo

    @Chase Calhoun Since the Great Real Estate Crash of 2008-2010, investors have been spolied by consistently increasing values & rents!

    Go talk to an older investor who was doing business BEFORE 2008 and ask what they used to do.

    Deals were harder to find, getting all your cash back out happened infrequently and building cashflow & wealth took time and patience. 

    Something else you'll probably learn - the most consistently successful investors aren't tied to one investing option, but always adapt to market changes.

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10mo

    Same story played out repeatedly in the forums…..active investors saying there's major headwinds making BRRRR difficult while agents and lenders saying it's still possible…I would side with the investors.

    Can you make a BRRRR work? Sure, there's still deals out there but those are difficult to find. Those who claim to be completing BRRRR's in volume are in the lowest cost markets and are taking short cuts on the rehab and manipulating the process.
     
    They may get an appraisal that allows the BRRRR to appear successful but they will never achieve the same result in a sale as the  the inspection report and sale process of selling to the entry level buyer (if one even exists) is far less forgiving. Those investors are  house collectors not investors. Back to my original point about listening to the investor-the house collectors are the favorite client of agents and lenders…plenty of transaction fees for the take. 

    • Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      Same story played out repeatedly in the forums…..active investors saying there's major headwinds making BRRRR difficult while agents and lenders saying it's still possible…I would side with the investors.

      Can you make a BRRRR work? Sure, there's still deals out there but those are difficult to find. Those who claim to be completing BRRRR's in volume are in the lowest cost markets and are taking short cuts on the rehab and manipulating the process.
       
      They may get an appraisal that allows the BRRRR to appear successful but they will never achieve the same result in a sale as the  the inspection report and sale process of selling to the entry level buyer (if one even exists) is far less forgiving. Those investors are  house collectors not investors. Back to my original point about listening to the investor-the house collectors are the favorite client of agents and lenders…plenty of transaction fees for the take. 


       Very well said.  

    • Joe S.Pro Member
      Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      Same story played out repeatedly in the forums…..active investors saying there's major headwinds making BRRRR difficult while agents and lenders saying it's still possible…I would side with the investors.

      Can you make a BRRRR work? Sure, there's still deals out there but those are difficult to find. Those who claim to be completing BRRRR's in volume are in the lowest cost markets and are taking short cuts on the rehab and manipulating the process.
       
      They may get an appraisal that allows the BRRRR to appear successful but they will never achieve the same result in a sale as the  the inspection report and sale process of selling to the entry level buyer (if one even exists) is far less forgiving. Those investors are  house collectors not investors. Back to my original point about listening to the investor-the house collectors are the favorite client of agents and lenders…plenty of transaction fees for the take. 

      active investors saying there's major headwinds making BRRRR difficult while agents and lenders saying it's still possible..

      There seems to be a contradiction there huh? 🤔 
  • Lender · Nationwide · Member since 2018 · 571 posts · 310 votes
    10mo

    Rates were low and BRRRR investors did great.
    Then values went up and buy-and-hold investors did great and BRRRing was harder. 
    Then rates went up and lenders did great and buy-and-holding got harder. 
    Now rates are shifting down, lending will get harder, and the next strategy will get its turn in the spotlight. 

    • Property Manager · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 47 votes
      10mo
      Quote from @Shafi Noss:

      Rates were low and BRRRR investors did great.
      Then values went up and buy-and-hold investors did great and BRRRing was harder. 
      Then rates went up and lenders did great and buy-and-holding got harder. 
      Now rates are shifting down, lending will get harder, and the next strategy will get its turn in the spotlight. 


       Love this, any thoughts on what the next strategy will be that gets its turn in the spotlight? 

  • Lender · Nationwide · Member since 2018 · 571 posts · 310 votes
    10mo

    For a few years there has been a good business model of buying half-finished flips that novice investors started and then ran out of money on, since so many novice investors entered because of social media.  

    As a lender, everyone jumped on private credit recently, so I think there will be a similar opportunity to buy half-finished loans that novice lenders started. That's what I intend to do. 

    If there continues to be saturation and compressed profit the winners will probably be service providers or investors that can professionalize and scale and win on volume. Hard to speculate about the future though. What do you think?

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10mo

    I closed a brrr in late 2023 and yeah with the high rates it’s skinny from a cash flow standpoint positive but barely did make nice equity. 2021 brrr I did worked amazing though, lower rates help a ton. Hopefully eventually rates come down again. I would love to do full guts or new construction eventually, awesome man! 

  • Travis TimmonsPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Ellsworth, ME · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10mo

    This BRRRR conversation that comes up periodically is a lot like Adam Sandler and Chris Farley in Billy Madison talking about Miss Vaughn.

    Agent or lender (usually in a cheap market): I do BRRRRs all the time. 

    Seasoned investor: No you don't

    Agent or lender: Well, not me personally, but a lot of my clients.

    Seasoned investor: No they didn't 

    Agent or lender: But you could imagine how cool it would be if they did...

    Fact is that most of the on paper BRRRR deals in the past couple of years are polished turds. No matter how much you polish them up, you're still gonna get some crap on your hands.

  • Rental Property Investor · Lexington, KY · Member since 2012 · 115 posts · 64 votes
    10mo

    My company still BRRRRs everything, but it's hard to capture any cashflow with these rates and prices. The issue isn't getting a good appraisal, it's just the cash flow and getting lenders to finance it if its a DSCR loan. But yeah, we usually close on 2-4 per months +/-.

  • James JonesPro Member
    Investor · Collierville, TN 38017 · Member since 2017 · 602 posts · 450 votes
    10mo

    Short answer? BRRRR isn't dead, the old version of BRRRR is.

    The model still works, but only if the deal looks radically different than it did 3–5 years ago. You can’t buy mediocre distressed properties at retail-minus-rehab anymore and expect the refi to bail you out. Rates exposed who was actually buying value and who was just riding cap-rate compression.

    Here’s what we’re seeing across a few hundred units in the Midwest and South:

    • Buy deeper than ever — I’m passing on deals I would’ve happily taken in 2020. If I’m not getting 25–30 percent equity on the buy, it’s a non-starter.
    • Section 8 is saving BRRRR — steady rent and zero vacancy is what keeps these things cash-flowing even at today’s rates.
    • Only heavy value-add works now — lipstick rehabs don’t move the needle. Full guts, conversions, additions, or major repositioning are where the real refi spread comes from.
    • Commercial loans changed the game — DSCR lenders are tight right now, but local banks with strong relationships are still giving 75–80 percent LTV.
    • Cash flow isn’t dead, it just shifted — older homes with 50-year-old systems barely cash flow at 7.5 percent rates. Newer or fully renovated homes do.

    A lot of investors are stuck because they’re analyzing 2025 deals with 2019 math.

    If the cash flow is tight on a dated BRRRR, your pivot makes sense, I'd rather build new than hold a 1960s money pit that cash flows $50/month.

    BRRRR still works extremely well, you just need bigger equity, bigger value-add, and the right tenant base to stabilize the hold. It's a precision tool now, not a blanket strategy.

  • Real Estate Broker · Toledo, OH · Member since 2016 · 58 posts · 38 votes
    10mo

    Buy, Rehab and Refinance is always, always good. It has been a little more difficult to find properties on the MLS but this is where relationships (with agents and attorneys) and purchasing by sheriff sales, auction properties and even looking into a market that is better for this investment. But I want to urge everyone, do not get caught up on cash flow on every deal. Rentals are about long term wealth. When rates go up remember it is your tenants that are still buying you a home. You may not have huge cash flow now but set yourself up to pay those homes off in about 10 years. As long as you are not upside down in cash flow. I wouldn't hold a deal that was negative (unless i needed the tax break and had lots of equity).

    If you have no money in because you refinanced your money out then why would you not purchase something that someone else is buying for you even if the rewards are tax breaks now and cash flow after your tenant buys it for you?

    I do like the new builds. I am starting to plan for some new builds of 2 to 4 units for affordable housing here in Toledo (our city council is offering great tax deductions) but our market is huge right now for estates because we have a very large elderly population with kids inheriting houses and not know what to do with them. 

    Also, as some of the markets go stale as I am seeing, it is opening up new opportunities. The hunt for sure is getting harder. 

    Just food for thought. 

    Angela Harding 

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