Why BRRRR is not an effective strategy today...

Why BRRRR is not an effective strategy today...

Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Margins in the market today are extremely tight. The best deals I find are usually the result of an agent's lack of familiarity with the area or a very poor listing presentation. Even in those cases, it's difficult to create a significant gap between the purchase price, rehab costs, and ARV (After Repair Value).

Investing in today's market is incredibly challenging, and I've found that the BRRRR strategy is one of the least effective approaches right now.

Let's keep in mind that BRRRR gained popularity before 2020. Back then, the market was more stable, interest rates were below 4.5%, and distressed properties sold at significant discounts.

Today, distressed properties often sell at a premium, and cash-out refinance rates are above 8%.

The best BRRRR deal I can find today involves buying a property with cash, investing in the rehab with cash, pulling out 75% of the ARV and breaking even on rent and mortgage. However, even in these cases, you typically leave a small amount of money in the deal and only break even before accounting for vacancy, repairs, and other expenses. For example, you might leave $10,000–$25,000 in the deal, end up with a $3,000 monthly payment, and only collect $3,000 (or slightly less) in rent.

This applies to my local market and primarily to Class B or higher real estate.

You’re better off finding a solid property that needs only light cosmetic work (e.g., paint, flooring, or perhaps a kitchen or bathroom remodel), buying it at a decent discount, and putting down at least 25%. This approach gives you access to better loan terms and makes the investment more feasible.

In my market, the BRRRR strategy only works if you purchase an absolute steal from the seller—and deals like that are virtually nonexistent. Even if you do find such a deal, getting it to cash flow after repairs and a cash-out refinance is extremely difficult, especially for single-family homes. This is because there's a cap on how much someone is willing to pay to rent a home today.

For example, even if you own a solid property worth over $600,000, the maximum rent you can charge in my area is $4,000 per month. Even at that price point, you may struggle to find a tenant, potentially leaving the property vacant for months.

Here’s an example of a deal I’m currently working on:

  • Purchase Price: $215,000
  • Rehab Costs: ~$250,000
  • ARV: ~$615,000
  • Potential Rent: $3,600/month

Using a $615,000 ARV and 75% LTV on the cash out refinance, with taxes and insurance, my monthly payment would be $4,267 using an 8.5% rate. This also leaves me with $3,750 stuck in the deal (not including financing and closing costs, which could easily add another $20,000).

In total, if I had to include closing costs and financing costs, I’d have about $23,000 (if not more) tied up in the deal and lose close to $700/month before accounting for expenses. While I would have built $150,000 in equity, the cash flow simply doesn’t work.

Now, let's compare this to the market conditions when BRRRR was highly promoted (pre-2020).

  • Interest Rate: 4.75%
  • Monthly Payment: $3,057/month
  • Rent: $3,600/month

In this scenario, I’d be making over $500/month with $23,000 left in the deal, resulting in a gross 26% cash-on-cash return—an excellent deal.

As you can see, rates and prices play a critical role in the viability of the BRRRR strategy. Even with a great deal, it's tough to make it work in today's market.

This is the reality we’re facing now.

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Drew SygitBusiness Member
Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
1y

The Real Estate Crash of 2008-2010 caused real estate prices to crash across the country - but didn't affect rent amounts. This caused a historically unique opportunity for investors - they could buy Class A properties and immediately cashflow when renting them out.

This couldn't last forever, and it didn't, as excited new investors drove up prices.

Eventually, Class A property values increased to the point that even increasing rents didn't allow them to cashflow upon purchase.

So, the flood of new investors switched to buying Class B properties.

COVID created a chaotic spike in both the sale & rental markets, attracting even more new real estate investors. According to CoreLogic, in December of 2023, almost 30% of home sales were to investors!

Investment also spiked in Class A Short-Term Rentals (STR) and investors started paying higher and higher prices based upon anticipated STR rental rates, that exceeded sustainability based upon Long-Term Rental rates (LTR).

Now we're seeing investors pouring money into buying Class C rentals - but, many are getting burned.

In our experience & opinion, the main determinant of property Class is not location or even property condition, those are #2 and #3. The #1 determinant is the Tenant Pool.

If you don't believe us, try putting several Class D tenants in Class A apartment buildings and watch what happens. Or try the reverse - rehab a property to Class A standards in a Class D neighborhood and try to get a Class A or B tenant to rent it.

Unfortunately, many newbie real estate investors are jumping into buying affordable Class C rentals - expecting Class A results. In our opinion, Class C tenants have FICO scores from 560 to 620 - where their chance of default/nonpayment is 15-22%. See the chart from Fair Isaac Company (FICO) below:

FICO Score

Pct of Population

Default Probability

800 or more

13.00%

1.00%

750-799

27.00%

1.00%

700-749

18.00%

4.40%

650-699

15.00%

8.90%

600-649

12.00%

15.80%

550-599

8.00%

22.50%

500-549

5.00%

28.40%

Less than 499

2.00%

41.00%

Source: Fair Isaac Company

According to this chart, investors should use corresponding vacancy+tenant-nonperformance factors of approximately 5% for Class A rentals, 10% for Class B and 20% for Class C.

To address Class C payment challenges, many industry "experts" are now selling programs to newbie investors about how Section 8 tenants are the cure. If only it was that easy. Yes, the government pays the Section 8 rent timely, but more and more tenants are having to pay a portion of their rent. Then there are the challenges with Section 8 tenants paying utilities and taking care of their rental property.

Investors should fully understand that Section 8 is not a cure-all for Class C & D tenant challenges, it's just trading one set of problems for another.

We see too many investors not doing enough research to fully understand all this and making naïve investing decisions.

See this reply in the discussion

44 Replies

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  • Real Estate Agent · Kansas City · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    Very true. Interesting to see the flip in the last 2 years. The days of cash flowing and not leaving any money in the deal is gone(unless it's a unicorn). 

  • Eric GoldmanBusiness Member
    Lender · PA · Member since 2019 · 359 posts · 192 votes
    1y

    I have seen successful brrrrs from investors that are able to do the work themselves.

    alot also has to do with the purchase price. yes things are priced high but we are still finding good deals. 

    also 8.5% is highhhhh. 

    G2loans- Investor and Commercial Mortgages531 Reviews
  • Debbie FalesBusiness Member
    Lender · Annapolis, MD · Member since 2018 · 141 posts · 47 votes
    1y

    Thoughtful analysis, @Alan Asriants. It's hard to make the numbers work on a DSCR loan these days although we do have clients who do it - especially in the multi-family space. We are also seeing lots of folks pivot to new construction where there can be a lot more upside.

    Best of luck to you!

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Caleb Brown:

    Very true. Interesting to see the flip in the last 2 years. The days of cash flowing and not leaving any money in the deal is gone(unless it's a unicorn). 


     Yep 100% you have to leave something in the deal. A lot of newer investors hear older podcasts when people where buying brrrrs, making money on the cash out refi and then cash flow. Not really possible today. at least in my market 

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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Eric Goldman:

    I have seen successful brrrrs from investors that are able to do the work themselves.

    alot also has to do with the purchase price. yes things are priced high but we are still finding good deals. 

    also 8.5% is highhhhh. 


    What is a successful brrrr? And for a cash out refi in an LLC what is current rate?

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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Debbie Fales:

    Thoughtful analysis, @Alan Asriants. It's hard to make the numbers work on a DSCR loan these days although we do have clients who do it - especially in the multi-family space. We are also seeing lots of folks pivot to new construction where there can be a lot more upside.

    Best of luck to you!


     What is the upside in new construction vs existing home?

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:

    Margins in the market today are extremely tight. The best deals I find are usually the result of an agent's lack of familiarity with the area or a very poor listing presentation. Even in those cases, it's difficult to create a significant gap between the purchase price, rehab costs, and ARV (After Repair Value).

    Investing in today's market is incredibly challenging, and I've found that the BRRRR strategy is one of the least effective approaches right now.

    Let's keep in mind that BRRRR gained popularity before 2020. Back then, the market was more stable, interest rates were below 4.5%, and distressed properties sold at significant discounts.

    Today, distressed properties often sell at a premium, and cash-out refinance rates are above 8%.

    The best BRRRR deal I can find today involves buying a property with cash, investing in the rehab with cash, pulling out 75% of the ARV and breaking even on rent and mortgage. However, even in these cases, you typically leave a small amount of money in the deal and only break even before accounting for vacancy, repairs, and other expenses. For example, you might leave $10,000–$25,000 in the deal, end up with a $3,000 monthly payment, and only collect $3,000 (or slightly less) in rent.

    This applies to my local market and primarily to Class B or higher real estate.

    You’re better off finding a solid property that needs only light cosmetic work (e.g., paint, flooring, or perhaps a kitchen or bathroom remodel), buying it at a decent discount, and putting down at least 25%. This approach gives you access to better loan terms and makes the investment more feasible.

    In my market, the BRRRR strategy only works if you purchase an absolute steal from the seller—and deals like that are virtually nonexistent. Even if you do find such a deal, getting it to cash flow after repairs and a cash-out refinance is extremely difficult, especially for single-family homes. This is because there's a cap on how much someone is willing to pay to rent a home today.

    For example, even if you own a solid property worth over $600,000, the maximum rent you can charge in my area is $4,000 per month. Even at that price point, you may struggle to find a tenant, potentially leaving the property vacant for months.

    Here’s an example of a deal I’m currently working on:

    • Purchase Price: $215,000
    • Rehab Costs: ~$250,000
    • ARV: ~$615,000
    • Potential Rent: $3,600/month

    Using a $615,000 ARV and 75% LTV on the cash out refinance, with taxes and insurance, my monthly payment would be $4,267 using an 8.5% rate. This also leaves me with $3,750 stuck in the deal (not including financing and closing costs, which could easily add another $20,000).

    In total, if I had to include closing costs and financing costs, I’d have about $23,000 (if not more) tied up in the deal and lose close to $700/month before accounting for expenses. While I would have built $150,000 in equity, the cash flow simply doesn’t work.

    Now, let's compare this to the market conditions when BRRRR was highly promoted (pre-2020).

    • Interest Rate: 4.75%
    • Monthly Payment: $3,057/month
    • Rent: $3,600/month

    In this scenario, I’d be making over $500/month with $23,000 left in the deal, resulting in a gross 26% cash-on-cash return—an excellent deal.

    As you can see, rates and prices play a critical role in the viability of the BRRRR strategy. Even with a great deal, it's tough to make it work in today's market.

    This is the reality we’re facing now.


    BRRR is how we did all our deals from 2002 till the crash.. in those days we just called it rate and term refi.. I was the HML who put the CA clients into title for 1k per house.. then countrywide or wells would refi them in about 90 to 120 days generally they could cover their lending costs and be positive cash flow 50 to 150 a month.. I did hundreds of them .. then the crash happened and well things in the BRRR world stalled and then of course the new buy and BP coined the term like it was something new.. but its old old school for sure.
  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:

    Margins in the market today are extremely tight. The best deals I find are usually the result of an agent's lack of familiarity with the area or a very poor listing presentation. Even in those cases, it's difficult to create a significant gap between the purchase price, rehab costs, and ARV (After Repair Value).

    Investing in today's market is incredibly challenging, and I've found that the BRRRR strategy is one of the least effective approaches right now.

    Let's keep in mind that BRRRR gained popularity before 2020. Back then, the market was more stable, interest rates were below 4.5%, and distressed properties sold at significant discounts.

    Today, distressed properties often sell at a premium, and cash-out refinance rates are above 8%.

    The best BRRRR deal I can find today involves buying a property with cash, investing in the rehab with cash, pulling out 75% of the ARV and breaking even on rent and mortgage. However, even in these cases, you typically leave a small amount of money in the deal and only break even before accounting for vacancy, repairs, and other expenses. For example, you might leave $10,000–$25,000 in the deal, end up with a $3,000 monthly payment, and only collect $3,000 (or slightly less) in rent.

    This applies to my local market and primarily to Class B or higher real estate.

    You’re better off finding a solid property that needs only light cosmetic work (e.g., paint, flooring, or perhaps a kitchen or bathroom remodel), buying it at a decent discount, and putting down at least 25%. This approach gives you access to better loan terms and makes the investment more feasible.

    In my market, the BRRRR strategy only works if you purchase an absolute steal from the seller—and deals like that are virtually nonexistent. Even if you do find such a deal, getting it to cash flow after repairs and a cash-out refinance is extremely difficult, especially for single-family homes. This is because there's a cap on how much someone is willing to pay to rent a home today.

    For example, even if you own a solid property worth over $600,000, the maximum rent you can charge in my area is $4,000 per month. Even at that price point, you may struggle to find a tenant, potentially leaving the property vacant for months.

    Here’s an example of a deal I’m currently working on:

    • Purchase Price: $215,000
    • Rehab Costs: ~$250,000
    • ARV: ~$615,000
    • Potential Rent: $3,600/month

    Using a $615,000 ARV and 75% LTV on the cash out refinance, with taxes and insurance, my monthly payment would be $4,267 using an 8.5% rate. This also leaves me with $3,750 stuck in the deal (not including financing and closing costs, which could easily add another $20,000).

    In total, if I had to include closing costs and financing costs, I’d have about $23,000 (if not more) tied up in the deal and lose close to $700/month before accounting for expenses. While I would have built $150,000 in equity, the cash flow simply doesn’t work.

    Now, let's compare this to the market conditions when BRRRR was highly promoted (pre-2020).

    • Interest Rate: 4.75%
    • Monthly Payment: $3,057/month
    • Rent: $3,600/month

    In this scenario, I’d be making over $500/month with $23,000 left in the deal, resulting in a gross 26% cash-on-cash return—an excellent deal.

    As you can see, rates and prices play a critical role in the viability of the BRRRR strategy. Even with a great deal, it's tough to make it work in today's market.

    This is the reality we’re facing now.


    BRRR is how we did all our deals from 2002 till the crash.. in those days we just called it rate and term refi.. I was the HML who put the CA clients into title for 1k per house.. then countrywide or wells would refi them in about 90 to 120 days generally they could cover their lending costs and be positive cash flow 50 to 150 a month.. I did hundreds of them .. then the crash happened and well things in the BRRR world stalled and then of course the new buy and BP coined the term like it was something new.. but its old old school for sure.

     Yep my dad was doing it in the early 2000's too and was telling me about it way before BP even existed. Too bad I was 12 years old and couldnt take out a loan lol

    Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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  • Eric GoldmanBusiness Member
    Lender · PA · Member since 2019 · 359 posts · 192 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:
    Quote from @Eric Goldman:

    I have seen successful brrrrs from investors that are able to do the work themselves.

    alot also has to do with the purchase price. yes things are priced high but we are still finding good deals. 

    also 8.5% is highhhhh. 


    What is a successful brrrr? And for a cash out refi in an LLC what is current rate?


     Today a successful brrrr is trying to recoup as much of your costs as you possibly can lol.

    typically i find that people are leaving behind a small amount, less than the 20% if you bought a turn key...some see that as a win. 

    with out knowing deal info hard to quote any rate. feel free contact me. with a decent credit score mid to high 7s for 30 years fixed. also needs to cash flow.

    G2loans- Investor and Commercial Mortgages531 Reviews
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:

    Margins in the market today are extremely tight. The best deals I find are usually the result of an agent's lack of familiarity with the area or a very poor listing presentation. Even in those cases, it's difficult to create a significant gap between the purchase price, rehab costs, and ARV (After Repair Value).

    Investing in today's market is incredibly challenging, and I've found that the BRRRR strategy is one of the least effective approaches right now.

    Let's keep in mind that BRRRR gained popularity before 2020. Back then, the market was more stable, interest rates were below 4.5%, and distressed properties sold at significant discounts.

    Today, distressed properties often sell at a premium, and cash-out refinance rates are above 8%.

    The best BRRRR deal I can find today involves buying a property with cash, investing in the rehab with cash, pulling out 75% of the ARV and breaking even on rent and mortgage. However, even in these cases, you typically leave a small amount of money in the deal and only break even before accounting for vacancy, repairs, and other expenses. For example, you might leave $10,000–$25,000 in the deal, end up with a $3,000 monthly payment, and only collect $3,000 (or slightly less) in rent.

    This applies to my local market and primarily to Class B or higher real estate.

    You’re better off finding a solid property that needs only light cosmetic work (e.g., paint, flooring, or perhaps a kitchen or bathroom remodel), buying it at a decent discount, and putting down at least 25%. This approach gives you access to better loan terms and makes the investment more feasible.

    In my market, the BRRRR strategy only works if you purchase an absolute steal from the seller—and deals like that are virtually nonexistent. Even if you do find such a deal, getting it to cash flow after repairs and a cash-out refinance is extremely difficult, especially for single-family homes. This is because there's a cap on how much someone is willing to pay to rent a home today.

    For example, even if you own a solid property worth over $600,000, the maximum rent you can charge in my area is $4,000 per month. Even at that price point, you may struggle to find a tenant, potentially leaving the property vacant for months.

    Here’s an example of a deal I’m currently working on:

    • Purchase Price: $215,000
    • Rehab Costs: ~$250,000
    • ARV: ~$615,000
    • Potential Rent: $3,600/month

    Using a $615,000 ARV and 75% LTV on the cash out refinance, with taxes and insurance, my monthly payment would be $4,267 using an 8.5% rate. This also leaves me with $3,750 stuck in the deal (not including financing and closing costs, which could easily add another $20,000).

    In total, if I had to include closing costs and financing costs, I’d have about $23,000 (if not more) tied up in the deal and lose close to $700/month before accounting for expenses. While I would have built $150,000 in equity, the cash flow simply doesn’t work.

    Now, let's compare this to the market conditions when BRRRR was highly promoted (pre-2020).

    • Interest Rate: 4.75%
    • Monthly Payment: $3,057/month
    • Rent: $3,600/month

    In this scenario, I’d be making over $500/month with $23,000 left in the deal, resulting in a gross 26% cash-on-cash return—an excellent deal.

    As you can see, rates and prices play a critical role in the viability of the BRRRR strategy. Even with a great deal, it's tough to make it work in today's market.

    This is the reality we’re facing now.


    BRRR is how we did all our deals from 2002 till the crash.. in those days we just called it rate and term refi.. I was the HML who put the CA clients into title for 1k per house.. then countrywide or wells would refi them in about 90 to 120 days generally they could cover their lending costs and be positive cash flow 50 to 150 a month.. I did hundreds of them .. then the crash happened and well things in the BRRR world stalled and then of course the new buy and BP coined the term like it was something new.. but its old old school for sure.

     Yep my dad was doing it in the early 2000's too and was telling me about it way before BP even existed. Too bad I was 12 years old and couldnt take out a loan lol


    not sure how to take this..  :)  
  • Rental Property Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2021 · 774 posts · 500 votes
    1y

    @Alan Asriants - I agree that BRRRRs are much harder nowadays. Seems like the higher interest rates haven't brought down prices enough to make the numbers work. I agree that investors need to expect to "leave some money in the deal" with a BRRRR, but if someone has the right long-term approach they can leave small amounts of money in several deals now and hopefully refinance down the road to create better cash flow.

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Greg Kasmer:

    @Alan Asriants - I agree that BRRRRs are much harder nowadays. Seems like the higher interest rates haven't brought down prices enough to make the numbers work. I agree that investors need to expect to "leave some money in the deal" with a BRRRR, but if someone has the right long-term approach they can leave small amounts of money in several deals now and hopefully refinance down the road to create better cash flow.


     Absolutely. For some investments it makes sense. If I am leaving 20k in a deal but cash flowing 100/m on it, thats not that bad. But its another story if you leave money in the deal and also need to come out of pocket every month

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  • Debbie FalesBusiness Member
    Lender · Annapolis, MD · Member since 2018 · 141 posts · 47 votes
    1y

    In areas with exceedingly tight housing inventory and high prices, sometimes new construction is the only way in. We lend up to 85% of the build costs but, generally, require that our borrowers have some experience with ground-up construction. 

  • Rental Property Investor · New Braunfels, TX · Member since 2022 · 408 posts · 408 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:
    Quote from @Caleb Brown:

    Very true. Interesting to see the flip in the last 2 years. The days of cash flowing and not leaving any money in the deal is gone(unless it's a unicorn). 


     Yep 100% you have to leave something in the deal. A lot of newer investors hear older podcasts when people where buying brrrrs, making money on the cash out refi and then cash flow. Not really possible today. at least in my market 

    I just took a DSCR loan in Nov 24 at 5.7% and pulled out $157K cash, have $73K equity and it cash flows $200/month and I was all in at $135K. $70K tax sale, $65K rehab, appraised at $230K. The catch is I bought in Dec 21, put renters in in Jun 22 and didn’t try to mortgage it until Nov 24. I’m afraid you are right, those days are gone here in central Texas too. 
  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    1y

    I have done quite a few brrrr, but the market interest rate results in large negative cash flow when properly allocating expenses for a sustained hold. I am currently not looking at BRRRR as an option.

    Fortunately there are a lot of ways to make money in real estate.  So pivot to an option that the underwriting depicts a return that justifies the effort and risk.


    good luck

  • Lou HaidousPro Member
    Member since 2023 · 3 posts · 1 vote
    1y

    I’ve been able to find deals in Metro Detroit where I can pull cash out on the refi ($10-$20k) and still have about 2-$300 in monthly spread before vacancies/repairs. And usually I can pull out more but I don’t because I want it to cash flow positive.

    My question to you is should I pull out the maximum allowed or leave equity in there for cash flow?
    example:

    Purchase Price: $70k

    Rehab: $30k

    ARV: $200k

    Rent: $1,500

    I can pull out up to $150k but with taxes and insurance I’d be in the red. Or pull out $110k and keep it moving. Thoughts?

  • Rental Property Investor · Canton, OH · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    Hello. Obviously lots of factors play into this (market, debt service, etc.). That said, I still see people doing BRRRR deals now...albeit not as many. Personally, my strategy (in the midwest) has changed over the past few years and BRRRR hasn't been the go-to approach as much. In fact, I recently wrapped up a BRRR (minus the "Refi" part). That said, if I was to refi it, I would have only needed about 62% LTV to recoup 100% of expenses (and it would still generate $262/mo in cashflow). But...that was the only solid BRRRR-ish deal I saw like that in all of 2024. You just got to have a hunter mentality. The deals are out there...Wishing you the best of luck!

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:
    Quote from @Caleb Brown:

    Very true. Interesting to see the flip in the last 2 years. The days of cash flowing and not leaving any money in the deal is gone(unless it's a unicorn). 


     Yep 100% you have to leave something in the deal. A lot of newer investors hear older podcasts when people where buying brrrrs, making money on the cash out refi and then cash flow. Not really possible today. at least in my market 

    I just took a DSCR loan in Nov 24 at 5.7% and pulled out $157K cash, have $73K equity and it cash flows $200/month and I was all in at $135K. $70K tax sale, $65K rehab, appraised at $230K. The catch is I bought in Dec 21, put renters in in Jun 22 and didn’t try to mortgage it until Nov 24. I’m afraid you are right, those days are gone here in central Texas too. 

    Did you have to pay points for the 5.7% rate?

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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Lou Haidous:

    I’ve been able to find deals in Metro Detroit where I can pull cash out on the refi ($10-$20k) and still have about 2-$300 in monthly spread before vacancies/repairs. And usually I can pull out more but I don’t because I want it to cash flow positive.

    My question to you is should I pull out the maximum allowed or leave equity in there for cash flow?
    example:

    Purchase Price: $70k

    Rehab: $30k

    ARV: $200k

    Rent: $1,500

    I can pull out up to $150k but with taxes and insurance I’d be in the red. Or pull out $110k and keep it moving. Thoughts?

     Personally I would like to cover my expenses. But at the price point you're talking about it seems like a Class D rental. If so, I'd rather just sell it and not deal with the headache of landlording a property like that and just earn some cash. Then reinvest into a better area once the opportunity comes up. 

    For a couple hundred bucks in a Class D area it is too much hassle for that kind of return. I'd rather lose 100 bucks in class A area than make 200 in class D

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  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1y

    @Lou Haidous no one can answer this question but you!

    Some questions to consider:

    1) How much negative cashflow can your other income stream(s) support?

    2) How long can your reserves support the negative cashflow

    3) What's your plan to solve negative cashflow long-term?

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1y

    The Real Estate Crash of 2008-2010 caused real estate prices to crash across the country - but didn't affect rent amounts. This caused a historically unique opportunity for investors - they could buy Class A properties and immediately cashflow when renting them out.

    This couldn't last forever, and it didn't, as excited new investors drove up prices.

    Eventually, Class A property values increased to the point that even increasing rents didn't allow them to cashflow upon purchase.

    So, the flood of new investors switched to buying Class B properties.

    COVID created a chaotic spike in both the sale & rental markets, attracting even more new real estate investors. According to CoreLogic, in December of 2023, almost 30% of home sales were to investors!

    Investment also spiked in Class A Short-Term Rentals (STR) and investors started paying higher and higher prices based upon anticipated STR rental rates, that exceeded sustainability based upon Long-Term Rental rates (LTR).

    Now we're seeing investors pouring money into buying Class C rentals - but, many are getting burned.

    In our experience & opinion, the main determinant of property Class is not location or even property condition, those are #2 and #3. The #1 determinant is the Tenant Pool.

    If you don't believe us, try putting several Class D tenants in Class A apartment buildings and watch what happens. Or try the reverse - rehab a property to Class A standards in a Class D neighborhood and try to get a Class A or B tenant to rent it.

    Unfortunately, many newbie real estate investors are jumping into buying affordable Class C rentals - expecting Class A results. In our opinion, Class C tenants have FICO scores from 560 to 620 - where their chance of default/nonpayment is 15-22%. See the chart from Fair Isaac Company (FICO) below:

    FICO Score

    Pct of Population

    Default Probability

    800 or more

    13.00%

    1.00%

    750-799

    27.00%

    1.00%

    700-749

    18.00%

    4.40%

    650-699

    15.00%

    8.90%

    600-649

    12.00%

    15.80%

    550-599

    8.00%

    22.50%

    500-549

    5.00%

    28.40%

    Less than 499

    2.00%

    41.00%

    Source: Fair Isaac Company

    According to this chart, investors should use corresponding vacancy+tenant-nonperformance factors of approximately 5% for Class A rentals, 10% for Class B and 20% for Class C.

    To address Class C payment challenges, many industry "experts" are now selling programs to newbie investors about how Section 8 tenants are the cure. If only it was that easy. Yes, the government pays the Section 8 rent timely, but more and more tenants are having to pay a portion of their rent. Then there are the challenges with Section 8 tenants paying utilities and taking care of their rental property.

    Investors should fully understand that Section 8 is not a cure-all for Class C & D tenant challenges, it's just trading one set of problems for another.

    We see too many investors not doing enough research to fully understand all this and making naïve investing decisions.

  • Rental Property Investor · New Braunfels, TX · Member since 2022 · 408 posts · 408 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:
    Quote from @Caleb Brown:

    Very true. Interesting to see the flip in the last 2 years. The days of cash flowing and not leaving any money in the deal is gone(unless it's a unicorn). 


     Yep 100% you have to leave something in the deal. A lot of newer investors hear older podcasts when people where buying brrrrs, making money on the cash out refi and then cash flow. Not really possible today. at least in my market 

    I just took a DSCR loan in Nov 24 at 5.7% and pulled out $157K cash, have $73K equity and it cash flows $200/month and I was all in at $135K. $70K tax sale, $65K rehab, appraised at $230K. The catch is I bought in Dec 21, put renters in in Jun 22 and didn’t try to mortgage it until Nov 24. I’m afraid you are right, those days are gone here in central Texas too. 

    Did you have to pay points for the 5.7% rate?

    I did have to pay points (and we locked in just before the interest rates went up again) but the math showed it was worth it to me in the long run to pay it up front as I'm a long term holder. 
  • Alex BekezaBusiness Member
    Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    @Alan Asriants Average rates are much much better than 8% today for 75% cash out on BRRRR (even DSCR loans). Still seeing low to mid 7s on 1/23/2025 assuming decent credit

  • Robert EllisBusiness Member
    Developer · Miami, FL · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:

    Margins in the market today are extremely tight. The best deals I find are usually the result of an agent's lack of familiarity with the area or a very poor listing presentation. Even in those cases, it's difficult to create a significant gap between the purchase price, rehab costs, and ARV (After Repair Value).

    Investing in today's market is incredibly challenging, and I've found that the BRRRR strategy is one of the least effective approaches right now.

    Let's keep in mind that BRRRR gained popularity before 2020. Back then, the market was more stable, interest rates were below 4.5%, and distressed properties sold at significant discounts.

    Today, distressed properties often sell at a premium, and cash-out refinance rates are above 8%.

    The best BRRRR deal I can find today involves buying a property with cash, investing in the rehab with cash, pulling out 75% of the ARV and breaking even on rent and mortgage. However, even in these cases, you typically leave a small amount of money in the deal and only break even before accounting for vacancy, repairs, and other expenses. For example, you might leave $10,000–$25,000 in the deal, end up with a $3,000 monthly payment, and only collect $3,000 (or slightly less) in rent.

    This applies to my local market and primarily to Class B or higher real estate.

    You’re better off finding a solid property that needs only light cosmetic work (e.g., paint, flooring, or perhaps a kitchen or bathroom remodel), buying it at a decent discount, and putting down at least 25%. This approach gives you access to better loan terms and makes the investment more feasible.

    In my market, the BRRRR strategy only works if you purchase an absolute steal from the seller—and deals like that are virtually nonexistent. Even if you do find such a deal, getting it to cash flow after repairs and a cash-out refinance is extremely difficult, especially for single-family homes. This is because there's a cap on how much someone is willing to pay to rent a home today.

    For example, even if you own a solid property worth over $600,000, the maximum rent you can charge in my area is $4,000 per month. Even at that price point, you may struggle to find a tenant, potentially leaving the property vacant for months.

    Here’s an example of a deal I’m currently working on:

    • Purchase Price: $215,000
    • Rehab Costs: ~$250,000
    • ARV: ~$615,000
    • Potential Rent: $3,600/month

    Using a $615,000 ARV and 75% LTV on the cash out refinance, with taxes and insurance, my monthly payment would be $4,267 using an 8.5% rate. This also leaves me with $3,750 stuck in the deal (not including financing and closing costs, which could easily add another $20,000).

    In total, if I had to include closing costs and financing costs, I’d have about $23,000 (if not more) tied up in the deal and lose close to $700/month before accounting for expenses. While I would have built $150,000 in equity, the cash flow simply doesn’t work.

    Now, let's compare this to the market conditions when BRRRR was highly promoted (pre-2020).

    • Interest Rate: 4.75%
    • Monthly Payment: $3,057/month
    • Rent: $3,600/month

    In this scenario, I’d be making over $500/month with $23,000 left in the deal, resulting in a gross 26% cash-on-cash return—an excellent deal.

    As you can see, rates and prices play a critical role in the viability of the BRRRR strategy. Even with a great deal, it's tough to make it work in today's market.

    This is the reality we’re facing now.


     we are starting a new trend ... Build, Rent, Refinance, Repeat and doing it in 3 zips where margins are good. 3 story walk up infill. most markets don't have low priced inventory and new construction sells at premium. look in your local market and see if that strategy works or the economics exist. our main market is Columbus Ohio. don't give up

  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore MD · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    1y

    you are probably feeling like BRRR doesn't work because you are trying to turn a 600k house into a rental. It would be hard to cash flow on a 600k house that has 3600 in rent regardless of the broader economic situation going on in society.

    i find that when someone says BRRR doesn't work anymore they end up meaning it doesn't work well for the specific types of real estate that they want to buy. And I've got no qualm with someone saying they aren't doing BRRR anymore but the bolder "brrr is not effective today" is in my view not very accurate. 

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