How to shut up the Wholesale bashers

How to shut up the Wholesale bashers

Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes

Wholesaling real estate can be life changing. I know a lot of people who started from nothing and now make 6+ figures annually doing so, that pisses agents off lol. 

The things I see about wholesaling on BiggerPockets are discouraging and borderline hate speech. 

Basically, the kids that grew up the nice comfortable middle class neighborhoods, went to college like mommy and daddy told them to are telling people that dont have the credit to get a traditional loan or capital to close on a property that you can't be in real estate. 

If you don't have a sh*t load of money to spend, or near excellent credit you shouldn't be in real estate, is the summary of the BS I've been reading. 

Now on to the legal part of it all...

Is wholesaling ILLEGAL? 

No. Wholesaling is simply buying something low and selling it low enough for the end buyer to make a profit. 

Assignments are legal in most states, some not so much...in every state that doesn't allow assignments I GUARANTEE there's an agent pissed off at guy who made his annual salary in one deal. 

Guys and gals, remember: From a legal perspective for a contract to be legitimate you have to have the intent and ability to close. 

The intent comes when you partner with a Transactional lender to fund your deals, you then have the intent and ability to close, if you meet the transactional lenders criteria with the way the deal is set up. 

Now I can already see someone saying "well if you're wholesaling you don't have the intent to buy" Well...you do. But you're only going to close on it if you can sell it, that's actually smarter to me. Rehabbers buy with the hope to sell, as a wholesaler we buy (double close) when we KNOW we can sell and I advise you to be upfront with your sellers as well. 

If you're an inspiring wholesaler be careful with what you pay attention to on here, chance are you got into the business due to lack of a big ol' fat bank account, excellent credit, connections, etc. (All the things the guys bashing wholesalers seem to have...hm...)

Organize your business, learn the laws, help sellers, be honest with them, and by all mean IGNORE THE WHOLESALING BASHERS ON THIS SITE. I bet none of them had to wholesale their way out of $37,380 in debt and a motel room. They don't know the struggle, they don't want you have a bigger pool than Kanye! 

But all jokes aside, guys and girls wholesalers get a bad rep because there are some people who mislead sellers, honesty and full disclosure is the key. 

I understand some people are afraid to tell sellers they wholesale, and that's understandable Don't say that; What you want to do is set up an LLC before you start, get the website the logo, etc. Look credible. Build your buyers list, build your transactional lender team as well, your business is dependent on those things.

So what do you say when a seller asks what you do or what the hell the and/or assigns means? 

"I work with a group of investors (the transactional funders and cash buyers; truth here!) I buy and sell properties to other investors, sometimes I'll assign the contract just to simplify things, that's less in transfer taxes, etc. 

....if they don't want you to assign it (yeah some people are picky and sensitive) and the numbers make sense just double close using a Transactional lender, 0 money out of pocket. It's very simple. 

So, let's go over that again. 

The "INTENT AND ABILITY TO BUY" comes from having a Transactional lender on your team, develop a relationship with them, get to know them. 

Too many people just brush off this idea, well let me tell you, the agents are getting tired of us helping sellers and making a killing so they're running to the big bosses and trying to stop it all, one day assignments may be illegal everywhere unless you're an agent, so in case that day comes be ready. 

Excuse any spelling or grammatical errors... actually don't, I don't give a sh*t. I made my point. 

Happy wholesaling! 

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Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
10y

This thread should get a lot of responses:)

Your arguments are bogus. Selling a contract is NOT investing. Closing on a deal and then reselling is investing. Laws vary state to state. Regardless of your arguments, most are just unlicensed operators acting as brokers. Most of the time they bring no or little value to a deal. I just saw a guy "wholesale" a property 20% under market in a HOT area. Any agent could have listed the property and got the seller EASILY 30K more after commission. Please tell me how this benefited the seller?

p.s.--you want to "shut up" people that disagree with your concept, disagree with a lot of post promoting dishonest, etc. What does that tell the BP readers? If you felt like making a statement about disagreeing with posters (I am one well known for expressing opinions) maybe that would promote better responses? I don't recall any posts from people wanting to "shut up" people promoting dishonest or illegal practices. BTW, what professional licensing do you hold and who holds you accountable for honesty and ethics? Anyone? Your arguments are FALSE and misleading. Some people need to do that to convince themselves they are right.

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  • Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2016 · 477 posts · 426 votes
    10y

    @Allen Felker 86% of Millionaires are self-made. So get the idea that anyone who is successful (who isn't you) only got there because they had some advantage you didn't. I can pretty much guarantee that anyone on BP who is successful got to be that way through hard work, hustle, and making lots of mistakes. And truly hardworking people are the last ones to tell everyone how hard they work. The first ones to talk about their mistakes, or how little they know, are usually the best educators. 

    Everyone has an unfair advantage. Figure out what yours is (determination, hustle, sales skills, good credit score, good W2 income, whatever) and put it to good use. Stop focusing on your critics, start focusing on where you want to go - then surround yourself with people on the same path. 

    I'll end my participation in this discussion with the words of a man I admire greatly - Dale Carnegie:

    "You can't win an argument. You can't because if you lose it, you lost it; and if you win it, you lose." 

  • Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 545 posts · 614 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Don Konipol:

    Some issue seems to exist with wholesalers calling themselves investors.  I think we can all agree that finding a below market property, tying the property up with a purchase agreement, and then assigning that agreement for a profit is not investing; it is a business.  Same scenario but double closing with some of your own money has a small investment aspect to it - but as in investing working capital in a business - not as in purchasing an investment.  Some posters seem to think that by spending money on advertising, bandit signs, earnest money, they are INVESTING in real estate and hence are real estate INVESTORS.  They are neither.  They are investing their money in their real estate related business, and hence are owners of a real estate related business.

    Not sure any of this matters at the end of the day, except that real estate INVESTORS are tired of getting a bad rap (rep?) because the public and press lump them together with wholesalers, flippers, etc.

    I agree with you 100% Don, I'm a true Real Estate Investor and when I find myself at RE events and I'm standing around 15 Wholesalers trying to pawn off overpriced bad product calling themselves investors, it makes me feel reluctant to say I'm an investor because I don't want to be associated with the Wholesalers. Maybe if they stopped calling themselves investors and just called themselves Wholesalers when dealing with everyone there wouldn't be the "ill will" towards the wholesalers.  Sincerely an actual Real Estate Investor!

  • Yuba City, CA · Member since 2015 · 5 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    @Allen Felker I want to let you know that you are destined to be the 2%. You are handling yourself well against the scorners. Stay empowered bro!

  • Wholesaler · Sugar Grove, WV · Member since 2016 · 21 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    Ray Johnson:

    Interesting that labels are sometimes deceiving.  I've been called a "wholesaler" just because I buy and hold...but I don't let it bother me!  As far as the absolute term wholesaler, I really think there are a few ...maybe even a lot that have more "skin" in the game that most.  Rarely is there a time when I have less than 40% of my money in any project...as a matter of fact, I don't think there has ever been a project that I have less than 40% on the table.  The only ones who have more than that are the Private Lenders...  Everything is relative once compared!

    JohnR

  • Yuba City, CA · Member since 2015 · 5 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    P.S. I actually call myself a wholesaler until I've reached another threshold of expertise and experience. Then I'll title myself an investor once I've actually bought a property with cash. Meanwhile I'm going to keep making my profit's through wholesaling in the most honest and transparent way possible. The sellers are happy, I'm happy, and the end buyer is happy. That's the way I've kept it and will always continue to keep it. Nothing illegal over here. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · High Point, NC · Member since 2016 · 276 posts · 183 votes
    10y

    I have no interest in arguing, but i an legitimately curious...

    What about those that depend solely on OPM to flip? Those people that get loans at 100% LTV and don't use ANY of their own money to fund their flips, just share their profits on the back end. They "buy" houses and technically own the titles, but don't actually have any skin in the game.

    I mean, there are books and podcasts and webinars on the subject regularly.

    I have never seen or heard anyone scoff at them and call them scum, or claim they aren't "real actual investors". Why not? What's the difference?

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Adrienne Bryson:

    I have no interest in arguing, but i an legitimately curious...

    What about those that depend solely on OPM to flip? Those people that get loans at 100% LTV and don't use ANY of their own money to fund their flips, just share their profits on the back end. They "buy" houses and technically own the titles, but don't actually have any skin in the game.

    I mean, there are books and podcasts and webinars on the subject regularly.

    I have never seen or heard anyone scoff at them and call them scum, or claim they aren't "real actual investors". Why not? What's the difference?

     Adrienne:

    The taxman sees a flipper as a business operator and taxes their earnings as income.  The properties they rehab-and-resell are considered inventory, not capital assets.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    Eliminate the name calling.  The issues are

    1. Are wholesalers (as the term is defined by most real estate people) principals or intermediaries?

    2. If intermediaries, do they need to be licensed?  Whose interest do they represent?  Are they in violation of the laws of agency?

    3. Can they be considered principals if they have no intent or ability to close the purchase themselves?  If they don't intend to close unless they can assign the contract profitably need they disclose such to a seller?

    These are the questions concerning the framework of what has become known as wholesaling in the real estate industry.  

    Btw, if you regard real estate as inventory, to be wholesaled, then you are not investing in real estate no matter if you invest your own money or not.  In this case if you invest your own money you are investing in inventory for your real estate business.  This is supported by the IRS definition of a real estate dealer.  The distinction is very important as different activities involving real estate should not be confused or lumped together by the public, or the participants.  This is not a degrading of those in the business of real estate vs those who invest in real estate assets; it's a distinction necessary for clarification and correct identification in every industry, including ours.

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Personal belief.  

    I think buying a property with zero down, no money down (which are different) Sub2, seller financing, cash, non seller financing, combination of all are investing.

    Investing isn't only about money invested into the deal.  Yet the cost of the deal.  

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 8 votes
    10y
    Allen Felker please pm me to add me to your buyers list.
  • Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jason V.:

    @Allen Felker 86% of Millionaires are self-made. So get the idea that anyone who is successful (who isn't you) only got there because they had some advantage you didn't. I can pretty much guarantee that anyone on BP who is successful got to be that way through hard work, hustle, and making lots of mistakes. And truly hardworking people are the last ones to tell everyone how hard they work. The first ones to talk about their mistakes, or how little they know, are usually the best educators. 

    Everyone has an unfair advantage. Figure out what yours is (determination, hustle, sales skills, good credit score, good W2 income, whatever) and put it to good use. Stop focusing on your critics, start focusing on where you want to go - then surround yourself with people on the same path. 

    I'll end my participation in this discussion with the words of a man I admire greatly - Dale Carnegie:

    "You can't win an argument. You can't because if you lose it, you lost it; and if you win it, you lose." 

    You completely misinterpreted the point I was trying to make, but I respect your opinion. LDE carnagie has some interesting material doesnt he?

  • Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @John Thedford:

    Geeez....

    felker has now gone to calling people "racists"

    his comments about people being raised in certain neighborhoods, with silver spoons also has somewhat of an animosity in it

    So, anyone that disagrees with him is now a racists, and I am also MAD because I wasn't born with that silver spoon and momma and daddy didn't shower me with money to make money. Not everyone is born with the same "opportunities" as wealthy people, but we all have opportunities to make of ourselves what we desire. It appears felker has a chip on his shoulder from him past. He is the ONLY person here talking race. I post in many threads with no regard to race. I am glad to contribute to any respectable thread about making money in an honest manner. ANYONE who promotes dishonest dealings will never get a positive input from me. 

    @Bill Gulley

    The "good ole boy" does seem to insinuate something...yes!

     Oh man...go back and read my comment carefully, I didn't call anyone racist, that's ridiculous but I respect the fact that you at least tried to understand, 50% is reading is comprehension. 

    I apologize to the BP community for the name calling, but if I (we) get called "Scumbag", etc how do you expect me to respond? 

    When I say "Good old boys" I mean Mr Gulley is clearly respected by the "in crown" for good reason too, I was just pointing out something I noticed idc if he's black, white, orange or see through. 

  • Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes
    10y

    "50% of reading is comprehension"***

    Correction. 

  • Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes
    10y

    Wholetailing is a better way to do, it blows wholesaling out of the water, I just went back and carefully listened to a Michale Quarles Podcast, How the heck am I just realizing this? 

    You guys can say whatever about wholesalers, maybe we're just dumber because we haven't became Wholetailers yet. 

    Once again I apologize for the name calling, but if you read closely I wasn't the only one doing it. That's not how I want to present myself. I'm 24, guess I'm young and still learning, conversation got a little heated. 

    Love all the opinions and different ways of looking at the this. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    Well said. Thank you@Adrienne Bryson

  • Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Adrienne Bryson:

    I have no interest in arguing, but i an legitimately curious...

    What about those that depend solely on OPM to flip? Those people that get loans at 100% LTV and don't use ANY of their own money to fund their flips, just share their profits on the back end. They "buy" houses and technically own the titles, but don't actually have any skin in the game.

    I mean, there are books and podcasts and webinars on the subject regularly.

    I have never seen or heard anyone scoff at them and call them scum, or claim they aren't "real actual investors". Why not? What's the difference?

     Excellent point. I think the argument  they made was from a legal point of view, but if you close on it first you do own it temporarily, they overlooked the fact that I basically double close all the time.

  • Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Anthoney Perkins:

    @Allen Felker I want to let you know that you are destined to be the 2%. You are handling yourself well against the scorners. Stay empowered bro!

     I appreciate it. The thing is I educate myself every single day, so looking back I probably won't even agree with some of the things I said lol. Constant improvement and maturation. 

  • Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ray Johnson:
    Originally posted by @Don Konipol:

    Some issue seems to exist with wholesalers calling themselves investors.  I think we can all agree that finding a below market property, tying the property up with a purchase agreement, and then assigning that agreement for a profit is not investing; it is a business.  Same scenario but double closing with some of your own money has a small investment aspect to it - but as in investing working capital in a business - not as in purchasing an investment.  Some posters seem to think that by spending money on advertising, bandit signs, earnest money, they are INVESTING in real estate and hence are real estate INVESTORS.  They are neither.  They are investing their money in their real estate related business, and hence are owners of a real estate related business.

    Not sure any of this matters at the end of the day, except that real estate INVESTORS are tired of getting a bad rap (rep?) because the public and press lump them together with wholesalers, flippers, etc.

    I agree with you 100% Don, I'm a true Real Estate Investor and when I find myself at RE events and I'm standing around 15 Wholesalers trying to pawn off overpriced bad product calling themselves investors, it makes me feel reluctant to say I'm an investor because I don't want to be associated with the Wholesalers. Maybe if they stopped calling themselves investors and just called themselves Wholesalers when dealing with everyone there wouldn't be the "ill will" towards the wholesalers.  Sincerely an actual Real Estate Investor!

     If they brought you a good deal you'd love em. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · High Point, NC · Member since 2016 · 276 posts · 183 votes
    10y

    @Allen Felker I know wholesalers, or more accurately "assignors", play in that legal gray area if there is no intention at all to close.  Those that tie up the property with $10 or nothing at all for a month then "weasel" out when they can't find a buyer are the ones that leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

    But at least half of the time the complaint is not legality or morality, but the "how dare you call yourself an investor with no skin in the game" platitude.  In every discussion I've read/participated in there's at least one person that comes in referring to themselves as a "real" investor and turning their nose up at the knuckle-dragging wholesalers.

    Like I said I'm not trying to argue.  I'm trying to understand.  I was told (in this conversation) that just "incurring expenses" isn't investing.  Basically it doesn't matter if I put in hundreds of dollars of my own personal money or months of my own time into learning, marketing, legal counsel, etc... unless I put money on the house itself I'm not a "real investor".  Yet again, nothing is said about those flippers that don't put any money on the house, don't put any money towards repairs, don't put any time or manual labor into improving the property, use wholesalers so don't put any time or money or effort into marketing, then sell for major profits...  The only distinction I can see is that the flippers have the title in their name for a short time.  If that is it, it seems extreme to go from "he's a clever investor that deserves admiration" to "he's scum".

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I am not sure where people are running into this concept of people not liking wholesalers.  I don't know if this is a new thing since I started in business 10 years ago, but the wholesalers in our market are making a lot of money and get the job done.  Of course there are some that don't, but that is any profession.  

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    @Adrienne Bryson, As to investors, or investing I think you are missing the point.  The points are that to be an investor, one must invest money.  It may not have to be your own money, in a more liberal definition of investor.

    A wholesaler, or more specifically, a contract flipper, is by definition not an investor since he invests neither his own money or anyone else's money under his control.  Exactly the same as a real estate broker acting as an intermediary is not an investor.  

    Now, as to wholesaler's investing money in marketing, earnest money deposits, etc.  They are investors.  But they do not invest in real estate assets.  Because the property they flip are not CAPITAL assets to them.  The property they flip are inventory assets.  So what are they investors in? They are investors in their real estate BUSINESS.  

    Can one be both? Certainly.  To add more confusion, I invest in real estate and real estate related assets for myself.  I am GP of a real estate private mortgage investment fund, with 50+ limited partners providing the capital.  And I also investment my own money in the fund as a limited partner.

    So, as to my own ownership of real estate assets, I am a real estate investor.  As to my activities as a general partner of a fund, I am in the real estate business.  As to my activities investing capital in my fund business for technology, marketing, sales, advertising, legal, etc., I am an investor in a real estate business.  And as for my investing in the fund for an ownership share of a real estate asset, I am a real estate investor (passive). 

    Similarly, the fix n flip crowd are not investors in real estate (for the properties they fix and flip, because that property is their inventory).  They are investors in their real estate business.  So, are they real estate investors.  Well, for sure not in the sense that someone who buys and hold real estate is a real estate investor.  BUT, they DO invest money in real properties.  So, maybe they have a legit claim on being called real estate investors.  Maybe not.

    Simple? LOL 

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    So here's a simple equation that will eliminate some of the super technical arguments.

    If you complete the purchase of a real property, then you are an investor.  No matter if you invested your own money or not.

    If you do not complete the purchase, as in contract assignment, simultaneous closing, etc. than you are not an investor, you are an intermediary.  But wait you say, I invested money in advertising, bandit signs, etc.  Well, so do real estate brokers, however that does not make them real estate investors; they're still intermediaries.

    Nothing wrong with being an intermediary, I hold broker licenses in three states.  And it is not a matter of earnings, wealth, social stigma, etc.  It's a matter of occupational definition.  

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Flipper/Rehabber · High Point, NC · Member since 2016 · 276 posts · 183 votes
    10y

    @Don Konipol I appreciate the clarification.  But I am less confused about the definition than about the attitudes carried by many towards wholesalers.

    I just think it silly to make such a fuss (not that you are making a fuss, I'm referring to those that do) over the difference between calling oneself "real estate investor" or "investor in real estate related business".  I do understand the distinction, but do not understand the superiority complex carried by many.  The whole "how dare you call yourself an investor?!" thing just seems like an overreaction.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Don Konipol:

    So here's a simple equation that will eliminate some of the super technical arguments.

    If you complete the purchase of a real property, then you are an investor.  No matter if you invested your own money or not.

    If you do not complete the purchase, as in contract assignment, simultaneous closing, etc. than you are not an investor, you are an intermediary.  But wait you say, I invested money in advertising, bandit signs, etc.  Well, so do real estate brokers, however that does not make them real estate investors; they're still intermediaries.

    Nothing wrong with being an intermediary, I hold broker licenses in three states.  And it is not a matter of earnings, wealth, social stigma, etc.  It's a matter of occupational definition.  

    I'm not a wholesaler.  But I don't understand the hand wringing over the term investor.  It conveys in a concise way that they have a business interest rather than a personal interest in the property.  Any other term is going to be confusing.  Do you have a useful suggestion besides, "I am an intermediary"?

  • Wholesaler · Madison , WI · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Don Konipol:

    So here's a simple equation that will eliminate some of the super technical arguments.

    If you complete the purchase of a real property, then you are an investor.  No matter if you invested your own money or not.

    If you do not complete the purchase, as in contract assignment, simultaneous closing, etc. than you are not an investor, you are an intermediary.  But wait you say, I invested money in advertising, bandit signs, etc.  Well, so do real estate brokers, however that does not make them real estate investors; they're still intermediaries.

    Nothing wrong with being an intermediary, I hold broker licenses in three states.  And it is not a matter of earnings, wealth, social stigma, etc.  It's a matter of occupational definition.  

     Understood. I appreciate all the information. 

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