Real Estate Investor · Steamboat, CO · Member since 2010 · 295 posts · 34 votes
I am in round two of a direct mail campaign and callers are getting more sharp in their replies; its said to expect creative responses to creative marketing and of course I'm hearing more "creativity" sent my way after the second letter than after the first letter.
I wonder what others use for their mailing frequency? I've heard it should be each 4-6 weeks. It doesn't seem like enough time to create a new financial urgency, where there wasn't one strong enough to make a call before. But maybe I"m missing the point about establishing mailing "rapport" in the first place.
Goshen, KY · Member since 2009 · 835 posts · 683 votes
13y
Great topic Burt.
I have been doing direct mail for about 20 years; 5 years in real estate. It really depends on what type of list you have. Absentee owners are good so long as they don't move to where the property is. You just have to update your list periodically to get rid of folks and add new foks. I bought a house last year after 3 years. Was it worth monthly mailings for 3 years? Heck yes. $12K in profit for 36 stamps and some paper.
Probates you won't mail to for as long as absentee owners. But I have bought a lot of properties beyond the one year mark. Some folks just can't face dealing with the estate until that point.
Preforeclosures would be on a different time table.
I was trying to decide what to write about for Monday, and you just solved that problem; it will be on direct mail.
I can tell you one thing. The bulk of your DEALS come at the 4th mailing and beyond. It's called a "direct mail campaign" for a reason. I will have some statistics for you in the article.
If you are just doing one or two mailings, it's a complete waste of your time and money.
I am the guy that's still in the game when everyone else has quit; and I'm pretty happy about that.
Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2012 · 583 posts · 353 votes
13y
Hey Burt,
I don't do a round 2. I just do one campaign in an area and then move on. Where are you getting your lists from? Perhaps there is some refining that can be done?
Wholesaler · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2012 · 259 posts · 147 votes
13y
Okay. Well now I have all sorts of questions. I plan on sending my very first round of yellow letters to absentee owners right after the new year. Probably a round of between 500-750. I've been doing tons of reading on the subject and reading a lot of what Sharon Vonhort (can't get her name to link) has to say on the subject. The main takeaways I get from her is that a system needs to be set up for tracking metrics and for systematic mailings in addition to multiple, consistent mailings. She talks about marketing to these people for a long period of time, sometimes up to two years.
With that in mind, my initial plan was to send direct mail to the same group of people a total of 8 - 10 times. The intervals would look something like this:
- Initial Mailing - Day 1
- Second Mailing - 30 days after initial
- Third Mailing - 45 days after second mailing
- Fourth Mailing - 60 days after third mailing
- Fifth Mailing and On - 90 days after
But after reading this thread, it seems that would be overkill and a potential waste of time/funds. Does anyone have metrics/stories about marketing successes after three to four mailings? To those who only do one to four rounds of mail, what are your conversion rates for both call-backs and houses you make offers on? Finally, are you sending out "handwritten" yellow letters, postcards, typed letters, etc? Is there one method that you find attracts more call-backs than others? Reading on here it seems the vast majority send yellow letters, but would love to get further feedback.
Real Estate Investor · Steamboat, CO · Member since 2010 · 295 posts · 34 votes
13y
This is my first time at round two, and now going to a third round of mailing so I don't yet have any data about dealflow in the later stages of a campaign.
What I mean by more "creative" responses is that callers who have had two letters and then call to ask to be removed from mailings are much more outspoken and prone to profanity than those who called after the first mailing to ask to be removed. Maybe this just means my message is getting through now.
I do look forward to a better deal-flow after the second touch, which I believe has been the experience of others.
Goshen, KY · Member since 2009 · 835 posts · 683 votes
13y
Great topic Burt.
I have been doing direct mail for about 20 years; 5 years in real estate. It really depends on what type of list you have. Absentee owners are good so long as they don't move to where the property is. You just have to update your list periodically to get rid of folks and add new foks. I bought a house last year after 3 years. Was it worth monthly mailings for 3 years? Heck yes. $12K in profit for 36 stamps and some paper.
Probates you won't mail to for as long as absentee owners. But I have bought a lot of properties beyond the one year mark. Some folks just can't face dealing with the estate until that point.
Preforeclosures would be on a different time table.
I was trying to decide what to write about for Monday, and you just solved that problem; it will be on direct mail.
I can tell you one thing. The bulk of your DEALS come at the 4th mailing and beyond. It's called a "direct mail campaign" for a reason. I will have some statistics for you in the article.
If you are just doing one or two mailings, it's a complete waste of your time and money.
I am the guy that's still in the game when everyone else has quit; and I'm pretty happy about that.
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
13y
Originally posted by Sharon Vornholt:
I can tell you one thing. The bulk of your DEALS come at the 4th mailing and beyond. It's called a "direct mail campaign" for a reason. I will have some statistics for you in the article.
If you are just doing one or two mailings, it's a complete waste of your time and money.
I am the guy that's still in the game when everyone else has quit; and I'm pretty happy about that.
I've read a lot of opinions here on BP about how many "touches" it takes to get responses and deals from direct marketing. I'd never done an intentional, methodical repeat mailing until this year. Most of my deals over the past 10 years have come from 1 letter or call. While many say it's a numbers game, there is an art to getting calls that I can turn into a deal. My opinion and experience is that the quality of the list/lead and the quality of the marketing piece are what generate calls and deals. That being said, quality leads require identifying a distress or motivation (hopefully that other investors aren't targeting) and take me a lot of time to create. So, IMO, the trade off in the repeat mailings is volume (which costs more).
I look forward to seeing how my repeat mailing campaigns compare to my past marketing results. But for those with limited resources: I suggest learning more about who might be motivated, what problems they need solved and what you can bring to the table. Then focus your marketing on what you learn.
Orange, CA · Member since 2012 · 66 posts · 17 votes
13y
Sharon Vornholt Sharon, your article couldn't come at a better time for me. I'm a new investor. I've been doing direct mail for 2 months and I'm having a rough time getting my first deal. Please let me know when you post your article.
Orange, CA · Member since 2012 · 66 posts · 17 votes
13y
K. Marie Poe But for those with limited resources: I suggest learning more about who might be motivated, what problems they need solved and what you can bring to the table. Then focus your marketing on what you learn.
Can you go into more detail on what you say to sellers on the first call to bring out the motivation? I think this is where I'm stuck. My phone is ringing but my skills in this are a bit green. Any advice to turn leads into deals would be amazing.
Also, can you go into the criteria for your mailing lists. Here's mine: Absentee owners, different cities each mailing, at least 30% equity, and have owned the property for at least five years.
Is there anything you can think of that could make my lists better?
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
13y
Lauren Hardy I don't bring out motivation. Either they have something to sell or they don't. With such a general list, you'll always get a lot of calls from people hoping for a free appraisal or miracle offer. There might be someone ready to sell, but with that list, it really is a numbers game. :) I've never seen any particular motivation in absentee owners, so that's never the main target for me. What else, in addition to being absentee, would cause motivation? Debt, divorce, judgments, BK, tax liens, death, serious repair issues. Learn to think like a motivated seller, which can be challenging since so many new investors have never been one. And then once you identify certain distresses, you'll need to find how you can get that info for your area. Ease of availability of recorded documents and adjudicated newspapers and court info varies widely. That why so many people use the list services. Easier, yes, but everyone else is using them too.
Real Estate Consultant · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
13y
Sharon Vornholt
Originally posted by K. Marie Poe:
Originally posted by Sharon Vornholt:
I can tell you one thing. The bulk of your DEALS come at the 4th mailing and beyond. It's called a "direct mail campaign" for a reason. I will have some statistics for you in the article.
If you are just doing one or two mailings, it's a complete waste of your time and money.
I am the guy that's still in the game when everyone else has quit; and I'm pretty happy about that.
Most of my deals over the past 10 years have come from 1 letter or call. While many say it's a numbers game, there is an art to getting calls that I can turn into a deal. My opinion and experience is that the quality of the list/lead and the quality of the marketing piece are what generate calls and deals.
I agree and have had the same experience. Nonetheless I have also started implementing repeated 'touches' in my direct mail campaign starting earlier this year with good results. I was going to max at 3 but will go with 4 (and perhaps more) now that Sharon has suggested it.
Goshen, KY · Member since 2009 · 835 posts · 683 votes
13y
@K. Marie Poe. I think it is a given that you have to have a quality mail piece and a good list.
The thing I have found is that over time, circumstances change for all people. That person that wasn't motivated when you sent your first letter, can be very motivated months down the road when their tenant has just left in the middle of the night leaving the property a mess. You do have to mail more, but the results are definitely worth it for me.
Goshen, KY · Member since 2009 · 835 posts · 683 votes
13y
Lauren Hardy. The article will be posted on Monday. I think you need to "tweak" your criteria if you intend to wholesale the property. I mail to folks with 50% equity. Investors generally buy at 70% of the ARV less repairs. If you are wholesaling it, you will also need to back out your fee. At 30%, you won't be buying it cheap enough.
I only mail to absentee owners that are "out of state". If you are in a big state like CA or TX, that might be different. Here in KY you can drive from one end of the state to another in 2-3 hours. That is just not far enough away in most cases to be so painful they want to sell. They just weren't motivated enough to sell at an investor price.
Also, I don't use any timeline like 5 years. There are a lot of folks out there paying cash for properties thinking they want to be landlords. Two years later, they can't wait to get out; they hate being a landlord and are very motivated sellers.
By the same token, there are a lot of folks that have owned a property 20-30 years that have refinanced every few years and have no equity.
Wholesaler · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2012 · 259 posts · 147 votes
13y
Excellent, I was hoping Sharon Vornholt & K. Marie Poe would jump in as I've read and learned a lot from you both. Sharon - looking forward to reading the blog post come Monday!
As for mail intervals on absentee owners, after the 3rd touch are you mailing once a quarter or even further apart than that? I'm working on pricing out the cost of doing a mail campaign of 10 touches that would run for a total of 20 months. Does this seem like too much mail in too short of a time-frame, too little or like Goldilocks - just right? Also, after running some rough numbers and not accounting for the price of a PO Box I'm looking at roughly $3,300 in expenses for the life of this campaign (purchased list, envelopes, paper & stamps). Which at first glance seems like a lot, but one wholesale deal covers the entire expenditure for the campaign.
Final question - when mailing to probates, how often are you sending mail their way. I'd imagine it'd be different than absentees as there is a very strong emotional component. Thanks again for all the help!
Goshen, KY · Member since 2009 · 835 posts · 683 votes
13y
Brandon, Continue to mail every 4-6 weeks. It's better to mail fewer people for a longer period of time, then to mail a whole bunch and then quit.
Probates are the same. Remember that your letter will not be the only one. Let's say you send a letter and then wait 3 months to send another. Some other investor(s) will be jumping in there in the next two months. If they are ready to sell at that point, who do you think will get the call? It won't be you; they haven't heard from you in 3 months.
Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2012 · 583 posts · 353 votes
13y
I'm curious (to anyone who feels inclined to answer), what is your typical response rate on these mailings? For every 100 mailers that are sent out - how many of these recipients will respond?
Does the response rate increase or decrease on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time you mail them?
I follow the one-and-done strategy, so it'd be interesting to hear what all of your results are vs what mine typically are.
Forest Hills, NY · Member since 2012 · 26 posts · 0 votes
13y
Originally posted by Sharon Vornholt:
Great topic Burt.
I have been doing direct mail for about 20 years; 5 years in real estate. It really depends on what type of list you have. Absentee owners are good so long as they don't move to where the property is. You just have to update your list periodically to get rid of folks and add new foks. I bought a house last year after 3 years. Was it worth monthly mailings for 3 years? Heck yes. $12K in profit for 36 stamps and some paper.
Probates you won't mail to for as long as absentee owners. But I have bought a lot of properties beyond the one year mark. Some folks just can't face dealing with the estate until that point.
Preforeclosures would be on a different time table.
I was trying to decide what to write about for Monday, and you just solved that problem; it will be on direct mail.
I can tell you one thing. The bulk of your DEALS come at the 4th mailing and beyond. It's called a "direct mail campaign" for a reason. I will have some statistics for you in the article.
If you are just doing one or two mailings, it's a complete waste of your time and money.
I am the guy that's still in the game when everyone else has quit; and I'm pretty happy about that.
Sharon, i couldn't find the article you wrote about, is there a link to it?