Fresh report from the ground in the Smokies, and some needed perspective

Fresh report from the ground in the Smokies, and some needed perspective

Collin HaysBusiness Member
Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

I spent the last six days in the TN side of the Smokies visiting various areas, from Cosby all the way to Cades Cove and Townsend. I drove around a lot, looking at activity and talking to merchants.  I talked to waiters and waitresses, store clerks, park rangers, and small business owners.  This is peak summer.  

Although I sound like a broken record, traffic is down. Yes, there is an oversupply of cabins, but I would estimate that it is only about 2200 cabins per night.  That sounds like a lot, and it is. But if traffic was a bit higher - even 5 percent - most of those cabins would be rented out. 

Let's talk about traffic a bit more. It would seem that we could look at GSMNP's visitor numbers and easily gauge where we are.  The only problem with that is, GSMNP adjusted their calculation methods last year. So garbage in, garbage out.  We won't be able to draw any statistical conclusions from that for several years.  That means we are all looking for data points as to what we have today versus say a decade ago.  To figure out exactly how far we are "down" in visitors, I took one of our 1-bedroom premium cabins, smack in the middle of Gatlinburg in the Black Bear Falls area, and looked at the occupancy history dating back to 2018.  I consider this cabin a bellwether of sorts for the overall market. It isn't THE data point, but A  data point. Here are the occupancy for the following years:

2018  - 74%

2019 - 69%

2020 - 87%

2021 - 92%

2022 - 67%

2023 - 59%

2024 - 53%

It's too early to tell what 2025 will be, but I expect it to be below 50 percent.  Back in 2021, when everyone and his Uber driver were buying cabins to rent out, I often heard "well heck, even if demand (visitors) drops 10 percent, I can easily live on 10 percent less rent."  We all found out that there is a major flaw in that logic.  2021 was the highest number of visitors ever to the GSMNP - around 14 million.  In 2022, that number dropped about 7 percent - to 13 million.  But the occupancy of my premium cabin dropped from 92 percent to 67 percent!

I don't represent myself as a forecaster, but the data from my bellwether cabin says that we will have the smallest number of visitors to the Smokies since I have owned the cabin.  I am not sure where the "bottom" is that we are all looking for. We may be in it now, we may not.

Keep the faith.

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JD MartinBusiness Member
Moderator
Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
1y

What you show mirrors exactly what we are seeing in the Four Corners/Disney area. Without any hard facts to back this up, but just talking to people in general, I think the bottom line is just that a large number of people are simply tapped out and can't afford it. Virtually everything has increased in cost dramatically since COVID and people are either scared, broke, or both. 

If someone stays at our house in 4C to take their family to the parks - let's assume a family of 4 and they go to the parks 3 days out of a 7 day stay - they are going to drop over $5k. A 3-day Disney hopper pass is going to be about $500 per person, so that's $2k. Even at cut rates, after VRBO fees and taxes they're going to be at almost $2k for my house. Then they need to eat, get there and get home, and have a little cash for other stuff. A lot of people just can't afford, or stomach dropping $5k on a vacation these days. 

It's not going to really be any different in GSMNP. They might spend less on parks, since outside of Dollywood they're minimized, but they're going to spend more on the cabin and all of the tourist-y things in PF/Gatlinburg. For most people they're not going to stay in the Smokies and spend all their day hiking, driving to overlooks, and fishing in creeks, all cheap/free things. Especially true if they have kids. I know a lot of people that come down here to visit and stay in Gatlinburg & PF and they spend all their time at Ripleys, Dollywood, dinner theatres, etc. 

I grew up really poor so we rarely went on a vacation when I was a kid. When we did go somewhere, it was always somewhere that virtually everything you did was free, which usually meant camping somewhere in the mountains or at a campground near a beach, and all day was spent at the lake or the ocean and if you got to spend a couple bucks on a hot dog and coke it was big doin's. The amount of money people expect they're going to spend on vacations has expanded exponentially and it's just reaching the limit for a lot of strapped people. 

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  • Michael BaumPro Member
    Olympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    Whew! Wish it wasn't that way @Collin Hays. 

    Hopefully it will start to level out or see a uptick in the future!

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    1y

    Thanks Collin!

    I always appreciate your market insite.

    We only have the one 6 bedroom cabin in the Pigeon Forge area. 

    June and July are slam full for us.  Not sure how the rest of the year will play out.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Collin Hays:

    I spent the last six days in the TN side of the Smokies visiting various areas, from Cosby all the way to Cades Cove and Townsend. I drove around a lot, looking at activity and talking to merchants.  I talked to waiters and waitresses, store clerks, park rangers, and small business owners.  This is peak summer.  

    Although I sound like a broken record, traffic is down. Yes, there is an oversupply of cabins, but I would estimate that it is only about 2200 cabins per night.  That sounds like a lot, and it is. But if traffic was a bit higher - even 5 percent - most of those cabins would be rented out. 

    Let's talk about traffic a bit more. It would seem that we could look at GSMNP's visitor numbers and easily gauge where we are.  The only problem with that is, GSMNP adjusted their calculation methods last year. So garbage in, garbage out.  We won't be able to draw any statistical conclusions from that for several years.  That means we are all looking for data points as to what we have today versus say a decade ago.  To figure out exactly how far we are "down" in visitors, I took one of our 1-bedroom premium cabins, smack in the middle of Gatlinburg in the Black Bear Falls area, and looked at the occupancy history dating back to 2018.  I consider this cabin a bellwether of sorts for the overall market. It isn't THE data point, but A  data point. Here are the occupancy for the following years:

    2018  - 74%

    2019 - 69%

    2020 - 87%

    2021 - 92%

    2022 - 67%

    2023 - 59%

    2024 - 53%

    It's too early to tell what 2025 will be, but I expect it to be below 50 percent.  Back in 2021, when everyone and his Uber driver were buying cabins to rent out, I often heard "well heck, even if demand (visitors) drops 10 percent, I can easily live on 10 percent less rent."  We all found out that there is a major flaw in that logic.  2021 was the highest number of visitors ever to the GSMNP - around 14 million.  In 2022, that number dropped about 7 percent - to 13 million.  But the occupancy of my premium cabin dropped from 92 percent to 67 percent!

    I don't represent myself as a forecaster, but the data from my bellwether cabin says that we will have the smallest number of visitors to the Smokies since I have owned the cabin.  I am not sure where the "bottom" is that we are all looking for. We may be in it now, we may not.

    Keep the faith.


     I think what would be interesting to add to this is the # of cabins available - for example 2018 was 74% but if it was 1,000 cabins (I am making numbers up and using small numbers for ease of comparison) that is 740 but if there are 2,000 now at 53% thats 1,060 - which is a good increase but would also highlight the oversupply and give an idea of how much oversupply there is

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    • Collin HaysBusiness Member
      OP
      Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Quote from @Collin Hays:

      I spent the last six days in the TN side of the Smokies visiting various areas, from Cosby all the way to Cades Cove and Townsend. I drove around a lot, looking at activity and talking to merchants.  I talked to waiters and waitresses, store clerks, park rangers, and small business owners.  This is peak summer.  

      Although I sound like a broken record, traffic is down. Yes, there is an oversupply of cabins, but I would estimate that it is only about 2200 cabins per night.  That sounds like a lot, and it is. But if traffic was a bit higher - even 5 percent - most of those cabins would be rented out. 

      Let's talk about traffic a bit more. It would seem that we could look at GSMNP's visitor numbers and easily gauge where we are.  The only problem with that is, GSMNP adjusted their calculation methods last year. So garbage in, garbage out.  We won't be able to draw any statistical conclusions from that for several years.  That means we are all looking for data points as to what we have today versus say a decade ago.  To figure out exactly how far we are "down" in visitors, I took one of our 1-bedroom premium cabins, smack in the middle of Gatlinburg in the Black Bear Falls area, and looked at the occupancy history dating back to 2018.  I consider this cabin a bellwether of sorts for the overall market. It isn't THE data point, but A  data point. Here are the occupancy for the following years:

      2018  - 74%

      2019 - 69%

      2020 - 87%

      2021 - 92%

      2022 - 67%

      2023 - 59%

      2024 - 53%

      It's too early to tell what 2025 will be, but I expect it to be below 50 percent.  Back in 2021, when everyone and his Uber driver were buying cabins to rent out, I often heard "well heck, even if demand (visitors) drops 10 percent, I can easily live on 10 percent less rent."  We all found out that there is a major flaw in that logic.  2021 was the highest number of visitors ever to the GSMNP - around 14 million.  In 2022, that number dropped about 7 percent - to 13 million.  But the occupancy of my premium cabin dropped from 92 percent to 67 percent!

      I don't represent myself as a forecaster, but the data from my bellwether cabin says that we will have the smallest number of visitors to the Smokies since I have owned the cabin.  I am not sure where the "bottom" is that we are all looking for. We may be in it now, we may not.

      Keep the faith.


       I think what would be interesting to add to this is the # of cabins available - for example 2018 was 74% but if it was 1,000 cabins (I am making numbers up and using small numbers for ease of comparison) that is 740 but if there are 2,000 now at 53% thats 1,060 - which is a good increase but would also highlight the oversupply and give an idea of how much oversupply there is

      There are around 2000 empty cabins per night right now, from my own math.  We also know that visitor counts are off as much as 3 million per year since 2021. If the traffic was even 5 percent higher right now, most of those 2000 properties would be rented. 



  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Collin Hays:

    I spent the last six days in the TN side of the Smokies visiting various areas, from Cosby all the way to Cades Cove and Townsend. I drove around a lot, looking at activity and talking to merchants.  I talked to waiters and waitresses, store clerks, park rangers, and small business owners.  This is peak summer.  

    Although I sound like a broken record, traffic is down. Yes, there is an oversupply of cabins, but I would estimate that it is only about 2200 cabins per night.  That sounds like a lot, and it is. But if traffic was a bit higher - even 5 percent - most of those cabins would be rented out. 

    Let's talk about traffic a bit more. It would seem that we could look at GSMNP's visitor numbers and easily gauge where we are.  The only problem with that is, GSMNP adjusted their calculation methods last year. So garbage in, garbage out.  We won't be able to draw any statistical conclusions from that for several years.  That means we are all looking for data points as to what we have today versus say a decade ago.  To figure out exactly how far we are "down" in visitors, I took one of our 1-bedroom premium cabins, smack in the middle of Gatlinburg in the Black Bear Falls area, and looked at the occupancy history dating back to 2018.  I consider this cabin a bellwether of sorts for the overall market. It isn't THE data point, but A  data point. Here are the occupancy for the following years:

    2018  - 74%

    2019 - 69%

    2020 - 87%

    2021 - 92%

    2022 - 67%

    2023 - 59%

    2024 - 53%

    It's too early to tell what 2025 will be, but I expect it to be below 50 percent.  Back in 2021, when everyone and his Uber driver were buying cabins to rent out, I often heard "well heck, even if demand (visitors) drops 10 percent, I can easily live on 10 percent less rent."  We all found out that there is a major flaw in that logic.  2021 was the highest number of visitors ever to the GSMNP - around 14 million.  In 2022, that number dropped about 7 percent - to 13 million.  But the occupancy of my premium cabin dropped from 92 percent to 67 percent!

    I don't represent myself as a forecaster, but the data from my bellwether cabin says that we will have the smallest number of visitors to the Smokies since I have owned the cabin.  I am not sure where the "bottom" is that we are all looking for. We may be in it now, we may not.

    Keep the faith.

    Collin, I have invested in STR properties in the past, but not currently.  I do glance over the STR threads as I still finance some larger STR properties.
    Just wanted to tell you that your posts are always well researched, insightful, and relevant.  VERY professional.  Thank you ! 
    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Mike GrudzienPro Member
    Lender · Eugene, OR · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    Collin,
    Thanks again for your work and insights!

    Mike

  • Andrew SteffensBusiness Member
    Tampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    Any thoughts why it is falling well below pre-pandemic levels?  It is obvious COVID was a boom, but it is consistently falling well below pre-pandemic.  GSMNP is driveable for so many, so I don't think it is all relating to just economic factors.  Many people can drive on a tank of gas and get a very good deal on a cabin.

    • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Andrew Steffens:

      Any thoughts why it is falling well below pre-pandemic levels?  It is obvious COVID was a boom, but it is consistently falling well below pre-pandemic.  GSMNP is driveable for so many, so I don't think it is all relating to just economic factors.  Many people can drive on a tank of gas and get a very good deal on a cabin.

      Interesting question. Maybe there are a lot of people that repeated that trip too many times and are now looking to other regional destinations? 

      When it comes to repeat travel there is usually a community element to it, otherwise most people get bored. Growing up in Michigan, if you went to the same beach or lake every summer you would usually expect to spend time with the same people on the same program. 
    • Andrew SteffensBusiness Member
      Tampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jon Martin:
      Quote from @Andrew Steffens:

      Any thoughts why it is falling well below pre-pandemic levels?  It is obvious COVID was a boom, but it is consistently falling well below pre-pandemic.  GSMNP is driveable for so many, so I don't think it is all relating to just economic factors.  Many people can drive on a tank of gas and get a very good deal on a cabin.

      Interesting question. Maybe there are a lot of people that repeated that trip too many times and are now looking to other regional destinations? 

      When it comes to repeat travel there is usually a community element to it, otherwise most people get bored. Growing up in Michigan, if you went to the same beach or lake every summer you would usually expect to spend time with the same people on the same program. 
      I just realized I am part of the problem too I went every year 2018-2022 and have not been back since.  The main reason for me is I have senior dogs and the 12h drive, but I am still curious of the macro reason why.
  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1y

    @Collin Hays great data, keep doing what you're doing:)

  • Member since 2021 · 167 posts · 141 votes
    1y

    Maybe I’m alone on my take, but I've never understood the appeal of the smokies. I get the location and proximity to populated areas but maybe people are burnt out by the little hills and want to go see real mountains out west. Which is why Yellowstone continues to set visitor records year after year.(I’m aware the numbers are much less than the smokies, but land is a premium out west and they don’t allow thousands of building permits). Just my hot take 

  • Collin HaysBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    The guesses as to “why” are many, but in terms of national park popularity, the Great Smoky Mountains National Park is king by a long shot and probably always will be.  
    For the long game, don’t bet against the Smokies for real estate investing.  I’ve lived through two major corrections and done very well.

  • Member since 2025 · 72 posts · 45 votes
    1y

    wow.... very insightful Collin! Love educational posts like these 

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Account Closed:

      wow.... very insightful Collin! Love educational posts like these 

      Oops

  • Property Manager · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2018 · 178 posts · 134 votes
    1y

    @Collin Hays How do you reconcile this against AirDNA's market data that shows Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge ADR and annual revenue up 9%, RevPAR up 8% and occupancy at 60% (down only 2%) versus your Black Bear Falls cabin at 53%?

  • Collin HaysBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    I don't try to reconcile anything to garbage.  

    I have never found AirDNA to be even remotely reliable.  There is that one time when all the stars line up when they are "right."  Then again, the broken clock in my office is correct twice a day, too.

  • Realtor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2024 · 55 posts · 40 votes
    1y

    STR Operator & Property Manager | St. Petersburg, FL

    Really appreciate you sharing this. You’re doing what most operators should be doing right now—boots on the ground, watching behavior, and tracking historical occupancy. That bellwether cabin data is incredibly helpful, especially the year-over-year trends.

    The drop from 92% in 2021 to 53% in 2024 says a lot. It mirrors what I’ve seen in a few other tourist-driven markets as well: it’s not just a “slight dip,” it’s a fundamental shift in guest behavior, compounded by oversupply, economic tightening, and the end of that post-COVID travel wave.

    What stands out most to me is how a small drop in visitor numbers creates a large drop in occupancy. That's the nonlinear risk in STR investing that doesn't get enough attention.

    I manage some short- and mid-term rentals here in Florida, and we’ve had to adapt quickly—more aggressive pricing strategies, pushing distribution outside the usual channels, and even targeting alternative use-cases (insurance stays, medical housing, etc.) just to hold the line.

    You're absolutely right—this may be the bottom, or not. But either way, data like yours helps the rest of us calibrate and adapt.

    Thanks again for sharing this—it’s the kind of honest market feedback we all need right now.

    Thanks, Kyle Wheeler

    • Ryan MoyerBusiness Member
      Property Manager · Orlando Kissimmee Davenport Salt Lake City, Park City · Member since 2019 · 993 posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Kyle Wheeler:

      What stands out most to me is how a small drop in visitor numbers creates a large drop in occupancy. That's the nonlinear risk in STR investing that doesn't get enough attention.

      It's absolutely insane to me how few investors understand these dynamics.

      Even here on this very forum in 2021-2022, when I was arguing that this future was likely, there were SOOOO many people that were equating a 5-10% drop in visitors to a 5-10% drop in cashflow and saying it wouldn't be a big deal because they could give up that amount of cash flow.

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    • Collin HaysBusiness Member
      OP
      Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ryan Moyer:

      Even here on this very forum in 2021-2022, when I was arguing that this future was likely, there were SOOOO many people that were equating a 5-10% drop in visitors to a 5-10% drop in cashflow and saying it wouldn't be a big deal because they could give up that amount of cash flow.


      Yes, we did hear that sort of thing a lot.

  • Investor · FL · Member since 2016 · 332 posts · 388 votes
    1y

    I agree visitors are down in the area, and 5%-10% decrease is about accurate. I have had a different experience with occupancy.  I will use my three smaller cabins as data points (1/1, 2/1 & 3/3 pool home) as I have had these the longest and have long-term data for them.  The 2/1 & 3/3 pool are in the Jones Cove area, and the 1/1 Townsend.  

    Occupancy YTD:

    1/1 83.39%

    2/1 74.33%

    3/3 pool 74.97%

    YTD Total Rent prorated and occupancy 2025 vs 2024 increase/decrease (not by check-in date, actual dates stayed/paid in 2025/2024 YTD):

    1/1 Rent +10.36% Occupancy +3.52%

     2/1 Rent -9.85% Occupancy no change

     3/3 pool Rent +15.81% Occupancy +25.23

    2025 vs 2023 YTD

    1/1 Rent +7.82% Occupancy +10.53%

    2/1 Rent -7.82% Occupancy -2.1%

    3/3 pool Rent -16.45% Occupancy no change

    Interesting comparing the height of COVID cash 2025 vs 2021 as rent is down only ~20%:

    2/1 Rent -19.76%  Occupancy -14.12%

    I have consistently adjusted my pricing and marketing strategies this year to achieve these numbers and maximize the income potential for 2025.  I would say it's about 10 times more work on my end this year to secure bookings at a higher ADR. I could get a lower ADR with less work, but I see it as a challenge.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    1y

    @Collin Hays I am guessing what your seeing is the dynamics of the full math playing out. 

    I will try to explain in simplification. 

    Say there is 10 offerings, and demand is matching at 100%. Let's say $100 is the rev stream on these. 

    So each of the 10 is capturing it's full 100% potential, supply-demand in perfect balance so also getting that full $100. 

    Now say demand drops to 8. 

    This means each of the 10 now has 0.8 market share vs 1. 

    So instead of $100, there now at $80. 

    Now expand supply to 12, demand at 8, and we are now at 0.67. 

    BUT, now that there is competing for market share it brings that $100 down to say $80, via price competing to gain more of market share vs other. 

    This mean that 0.67 market share is equating to just $53.60

    Your right, it's not nearly as simple as just a singular "rents down a touch". It's a triangle of factors working in a feedback loop. 

    The factors compound. Meaning the revenue decline can be amplified. 

    Given past events, how long would you guesstimate this cycle has to play out to get to the other side? 

    • Collin HaysBusiness Member
      OP
      Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @James Hamling:

      @Collin Hays I am guessing what your seeing is the dynamics of the full math playing out. 

      I will try to explain in simplification. 

      Say there is 10 offerings, and demand is matching at 100%. Let's say $100 is the rev stream on these. 

      So each of the 10 is capturing it's full 100% potential, supply-demand in perfect balance so also getting that full $100. 

      Now say demand drops to 8. 

      This means each of the 10 now has 0.8 market share vs 1. 

      So instead of $100, there now at $80. 

      Now expand supply to 12, demand at 8, and we are now at 0.67. 

      BUT, now that there is competing for market share it brings that $100 down to say $80, via price competing to gain more of market share vs other. 

      This mean that 0.67 market share is equating to just $53.60

      Your right, it's not nearly as simple as just a singular "rents down a touch". It's a triangle of factors working in a feedback loop. 

      The factors compound. Meaning the revenue decline can be amplified. 

      Given past events, how long would you guesstimate this cycle has to play out to get to the other side? 


       That is all going to depend on visits to the GSMNP, and there is no way to predict that. Also, the situations of various investors include a broad spectrum. For owners who invested a decade or two ago, this downturn is just a nuisance with reduced rents. For many of the more recent investors, the downturn represents a personal financial crisis.

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    1y

    What you show mirrors exactly what we are seeing in the Four Corners/Disney area. Without any hard facts to back this up, but just talking to people in general, I think the bottom line is just that a large number of people are simply tapped out and can't afford it. Virtually everything has increased in cost dramatically since COVID and people are either scared, broke, or both. 

    If someone stays at our house in 4C to take their family to the parks - let's assume a family of 4 and they go to the parks 3 days out of a 7 day stay - they are going to drop over $5k. A 3-day Disney hopper pass is going to be about $500 per person, so that's $2k. Even at cut rates, after VRBO fees and taxes they're going to be at almost $2k for my house. Then they need to eat, get there and get home, and have a little cash for other stuff. A lot of people just can't afford, or stomach dropping $5k on a vacation these days. 

    It's not going to really be any different in GSMNP. They might spend less on parks, since outside of Dollywood they're minimized, but they're going to spend more on the cabin and all of the tourist-y things in PF/Gatlinburg. For most people they're not going to stay in the Smokies and spend all their day hiking, driving to overlooks, and fishing in creeks, all cheap/free things. Especially true if they have kids. I know a lot of people that come down here to visit and stay in Gatlinburg & PF and they spend all their time at Ripleys, Dollywood, dinner theatres, etc. 

    I grew up really poor so we rarely went on a vacation when I was a kid. When we did go somewhere, it was always somewhere that virtually everything you did was free, which usually meant camping somewhere in the mountains or at a campground near a beach, and all day was spent at the lake or the ocean and if you got to spend a couple bucks on a hot dog and coke it was big doin's. The amount of money people expect they're going to spend on vacations has expanded exponentially and it's just reaching the limit for a lot of strapped people. 

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