Goals - 200 Doors?

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Goals - 200 Doors?

Don KonipolBusiness Member
Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes

I’m seeing a lot of goals being expressed as “200 doors”, or “ but $10million in real estate”, or worse yet “ create housing for the community”.

Why would I want to own “200 doors”?  What is each “door” was losing money?  How is it a goal to have a lot of money tied up, a large personal liability, and significant time for no return a goal?  Worse, if your goal is to provide housing for the community, you’re a community activist, not an investor.  Why confuse the two - if you’re a community activist who wants to provide housing then work with foundations that provide grants - don’t try to intertwine “doing good” with building your net worth.  The people who do the most good “win” at business, and then use a large part of their winnings for charity/public purpose.  Free market businesses do “good” by definition, they provide jobs, housing or products for the public.  There’s no need to make yourself feel superior by fooling yourself into believing that you’re somehow “better” than the “normal” business person. You’re not, you just don’t understand economics and have bought into the current socialism bs. 

By I digress (LOL), back to the “doors“.  The goal should  be $X in cash flow monthly; or $X net worth by age 40.  Look, I don’t want he MOST anything, because that’s the MOST hassle, time consumption and risk.  I want to achieve my income or net worth goals with the LEAST - the least “doors”, the LEAST time commitment, the LEAST debt, and the LEAST risk.  

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
1y

I thought I wanted 100s of doors SFR's I did that 2 years in I was like this SUCKS

Granted there are many that love being a landlord.. but its not the niche I found out worked best for me.. Rather own a few very high quality NNN type for cash flow and depreciation and create value in building and selling or renting our money to others who want to own rentals..

and I have some really great clients that I have helped achieve their dreams of owning hundreds of doors. happy for them.. But its not for me personally. I found out I like clipping coupons. and note collections much better than dealing with tenants or PMs 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y

    I thought I wanted 100s of doors SFR's I did that 2 years in I was like this SUCKS

    Granted there are many that love being a landlord.. but its not the niche I found out worked best for me.. Rather own a few very high quality NNN type for cash flow and depreciation and create value in building and selling or renting our money to others who want to own rentals..

    and I have some really great clients that I have helped achieve their dreams of owning hundreds of doors. happy for them.. But its not for me personally. I found out I like clipping coupons. and note collections much better than dealing with tenants or PMs 

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  • Michael S.
    Huntsville, AL · Member since 2018 · 577 posts · 864 votes
    1y

    @Don Konipol- that's because a lot of people on BP are not actually real estate investors.  They will either never buy a property, or just want to brag to their buddies at the next poker game that they are on the way to 200 doors and a ferrari in the garage.  

    I do not aspire to get "200 doors" - I aspire to have a porfolio that I am satisfied with, period.  I am the only one who knows how many "doors" I own (well, ok, my CPAs can see it as well). 

    For those that do have 200 doors, if they achieved their goals with REI, kudos to them. But I doubt they feel the need to thump their chest about it on a website / discussion forum.

    6Reply
  • Eric Gerakos
    Investor · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    I preach this all the time. Fewer but better and more profitable properties. Collect money, not properties…

    7Reply
  • Mike Dymski
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    1y

    It's a daydream rather than a goal.  A better goal would be "analyze 200 properties, make 20 offers, and close on 1" or something similar.

    8Reply
  • John M.
    Investor · Fairfax, VA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 796 votes
    1y

    usually when people talk about doors it's within the apartment community and yes that lingo does matter to those folks.  When analyzing deals it's important metric to figure out some quick math when doing conversions/flips to see the value that can be squeezed out of the deal.  If I could trade in my 16 commercial properties for one 100 door apartment community I probably would.  The demand for housing is still strong and depending on the deal the exit profits can be significant.  

    3Reply
  • Jeff S.
    Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    It’s much like Assets Under Management (AUM)—the overused finance term beloved by the fake-it-till-you-make-it crowd. Many here could overleverage themselves and buy a 200-unit apartment building tomorrow. This doesn’t demonstrate sound judgment or the ability to run a business profitably or efficiently.

    More impressive would be citing your Equity Under Management—a term you don’t hear as much because it actually reflects success. Or better yet, your ROE, which shows you’re operating efficiently and generating real returns.

    Owning 200 doors just shows you know how to spend money, not earn it.

    1Reply
  • Scott Mac
    Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    I think a good goal for someone just starting out is to buy (1) ((good)) property, and get it rented out, and run it for maybe a year and a half at least just focusing on that one property.

    But we also have those who are just starting out who want to use property management, or need to use property management because what they want to buy is far from their home, or they are just not cut out for being a property manager and all that it entails.

    I think that what I said in the first paragraph still applies to that.

    As far as net worth, you can't spend net worth it's not going to improve your lifestyle at all.

    And not giving investment advice, which I never try to do, that's all I have to say about net worth.

     Just my 2 cents...

    4Reply
  • Jared Martz
    Rental Property Investor · Myrtle Beach · Member since 2019 · 38 posts · 25 votes
    1y

    Can't agree more. Less properties that are all occupied and building wealth is much more valuable in my eyes. All power to the folks that can achieve hundreds of doors that all bring in real wealth but I can't see that percentage of investors being too common. One smart investor could only need a fraction of that many properties to provide some amazing returns and build a solid foundation. 

    2Reply
  • James Hamling
    Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    1y

    @Don Konipol I blame the collapse in creativity and vision. 

    When my wife pressed for "how much is enough" after some thought on it I had the correct answer: 

    When I can play battleship with actual ships..... 

    3Reply
  • Julie KnutsonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Watertown, SD · Member since 2024 · 24 posts · 7 votes
    1y

    Achieving goals in this business requires having a keen insight of market conditions, which are ever changing. 
    Acceptance and willingness to be nimble in pivoting. Build an exit plan & don't put your eggs in one basket! 


    0Reply
  • Andrew Garcia
    Member since 2025 · 37 posts · 21 votes
    1y

    I once took a real estate course. I thought I wanted to be a real estate agent. While taking the course for my QE hours, I found out I did NOT want to be an agent.

    But I did discover I wanted to invest in real estate!

    I say the first part because the proctor of the class asked everyone why they wanted to be an agent, and almost everyone said "to help people" or "to help a family find their dream home."

    He responded with counter questions like "Do you volunteer your time at a soup kitchen?" 
    "Do you give the homeless money when they asked you?" 

    The point he was making was that "helping people" shouldn't be your NUMBER ONE reason for being an agent... sure it can a nice bonus that you helped a family find their dream home, but that will all go down the drain when the family you tried helping decides to sue you down the line. Then what will your reason be for wanting to stay a real estate agent? Sure that might sound extreme without context, but the proctor also said that he once wanted to "help" families find their homes... until he was sued. I don't know what happened or why someone tried to sue him. He didn't say.

    This proctor's lecture changed my whole perspective, and like you said, Don, it's important to not confuse being an advocate or activist with being an investor.

    2Reply
  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    1y

    I target close to 0 doors. Right now I have around 10 or so in my fund which were ones we specifically targeted but less is more for us. As you mention it's cash flow or net worth


    but I did invest in black stone so does that mean I own 60,000 doors? That's what I see co-GP / LP's saying

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  • NA NA
    Member since 2025 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    1y

    Smart 

    0Reply
  • Marcus Auerbach
    Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    Great post @Don Konipol. 

    In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

    At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

    In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

    Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

    I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

    There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

    - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
    - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
    - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
    - do you have time?

    6Reply
    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      OP
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?


       excellent thoughts - there is a great degree of personalization at play.

      I guess my main point is that number of door is just the WRONG metric to use.  It implies that an investor should evaluate success by the NUMBER of properties they own, and by the value of those properties.  Why this is wrong can be easily seen by the example of the investor who used creative financing to purchase a 100 unit apt building with 100% financing and to obtain that financing paid 20% over market value, 14% interest on the note(s), and has a negative cash flow of $25k monthly.  So, he reached his "goal" of owning 100 un its, and is about to go through all his savings, and end up losing the property and all his "non exempt" assets in BK.  

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    • Marcus Auerbach
      Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Don Konipol:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?


       excellent thoughts - there is a great degree of personalization at play.

      I guess my main point is that number of door is just the WRONG metric to use.  It implies that an investor should evaluate success by the NUMBER of properties they own, and by the value of those properties.  Why this is wrong can be easily seen by the example of the investor who used creative financing to purchase a 100 unit apt building with 100% financing and to obtain that financing paid 20% over market value, 14% interest on the note(s), and has a negative cash flow of $25k monthly.  So, he reached his "goal" of owning 100 un its, and is about to go through all his savings, and end up losing the property and all his "non exempt" assets in BK.  


      That is just crazy! But also shame on the lender! Even getting started and buying a single family home with 80% financing and 20% from a HELOC seems nuts to me. Somehow, people seem to think that a HELOC is "their money" that they can invest..

      0Reply
    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      OP
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Don Konipol:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?


       excellent thoughts - there is a great degree of personalization at play.

      I guess my main point is that number of door is just the WRONG metric to use.  It implies that an investor should evaluate success by the NUMBER of properties they own, and by the value of those properties.  Why this is wrong can be easily seen by the example of the investor who used creative financing to purchase a 100 unit apt building with 100% financing and to obtain that financing paid 20% over market value, 14% interest on the note(s), and has a negative cash flow of $25k monthly.  So, he reached his "goal" of owning 100 un its, and is about to go through all his savings, and end up losing the property and all his "non exempt" assets in BK.  


      That is just crazy! But also shame on the lender! Even getting started and buying a single family home with 80% financing and 20% from a HELOC seems nuts to me. Somehow, people seem to think that a HELOC is "their money" that they can invest..

      The specific example I gave was done quite a few years ago - when title companies were more “flexible” and lenders not as diligent.  The investor obtained a hard money loan for 60% of the purchase price and the seller took back a “silent” second for the difference.  The “price” of the seller taking back the second was paying 20% above value- but for the life of me I can’t figure out how the seller ever thought the buyer would be able to make the payments.  The buyer did manage to make payments on the 1st (he was able to convince the seller to defer payments on the second) for about a year when he came to me seeking advice on a way out.  Although the buyer did a “nothing down” purchase, he still had about 150k in closing costs and about $120k in 12 months negative cash flow.  

      I told the investor his only way out was to refinance at about 70% LTV, negotiate a reduced payoff to the second lien holder, and bring about $750k cash to the closing table.  He thought BK was a better alternative, unsurprisingly suggested by a bankruptcy attorney. 
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    • Joe S.Pro Member
      Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?

       Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity.


      I know of an investor that has way more than 3.6 mill in equity  who’s not pulling down 240K cash flow a year from it. 😢

      2Reply
    • Marcus Auerbach
      Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Joe S.:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?

       Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity.


      I know of an investor that has way more than 3.6 mill in equity  who’s not pulling down 240K cash flow a year from it. 😢


      Why not?? What's the issue? Is he pouring funds into capex? If so that would be fine, because that's basically reinvesting money to improve your assets in future value. 

      If you can't bring in 7% it's better to liquidate and deploy the equity elsewhere, even if that is an index fund

      1Reply
    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      OP
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Joe S.:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?

       Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity.


      I know of an investor that has way more than 3.6 mill in equity  who’s not pulling down 240K cash flow a year from it. 😢


      Why not?? What's the issue? Is he pouring funds into capex? If so that would be fine, because that's basically reinvesting money to improve your assets in future value. 

      If you can't bring in 7% it's better to liquidate and deploy the equity elsewhere, even if that is an index fund

      “If you can't bring in 7% it's better to liquidate and deploy the equity elsewhere, even if that is an index fund”

      Not sure that’s always true.  I’ve purchased income producing property with little cash flow because I believed that near - medium term circumstances would raise property value significantly and or enable me to significantly increase rental rates.  Analyzing only CURRENT cash flow ignores future cash flow, price appreciation, and tax deferral. It’s a shortcut, then even if providing a “correct” answer 75% of the time ignores potential lucrative opportunities.  The BIG money isn’t made in cash flow, it’s made when a property is purchased at significantly less than the value of that property in the near - medium term future.  If I purchase a property today at $100K  (market value) and because of any one of many potential changes the property is worth $250k in three years, I would have done myself quite a disservice if I had rejected purchasing that property because cash flow at the time of purchase was 5% and not 7%  

      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
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    • Joe S.Pro Member
      Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Joe S.:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?

       Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity.


      I know of an investor that has way more than 3.6 mill in equity  who’s not pulling down 240K cash flow a year from it. 😢


      Why not?? What's the issue? Is he pouring funds into capex? If so that would be fine, because that's basically reinvesting money to improve your assets in future value. 

      If you can't bring in 7% it's better to liquidate and deploy the equity elsewhere, even if that is an index fund

      Tenant turnover and Property Management seems to eat up all most the cash flow and that’s before capex… 
      I wish I wouldn’t have ever read the (out of state landlord by David Green.)
      2Reply
    • Marcus Auerbach
      Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Don Konipol:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Joe S.:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?

       Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity.


      I know of an investor that has way more than 3.6 mill in equity  who’s not pulling down 240K cash flow a year from it. 😢


      Why not?? What's the issue? Is he pouring funds into capex? If so that would be fine, because that's basically reinvesting money to improve your assets in future value. 

      If you can't bring in 7% it's better to liquidate and deploy the equity elsewhere, even if that is an index fund

      “If you can't bring in 7% it's better to liquidate and deploy the equity elsewhere, even if that is an index fund”

      Not sure that’s always true.  I’ve purchased income producing property with little cash flow because I believed that near - medium term circumstances would raise property value significantly and or enable me to significantly increase rental rates.  Analyzing only CURRENT cash flow ignores future cash flow, price appreciation, and tax deferral. It’s a shortcut, then even if providing a “correct” answer 75% of the time ignores potential lucrative opportunities.  The BIG money isn’t made in cash flow, it’s made when a property is purchased at significantly less than the value of that property in the near - medium term future.  If I purchase a property today at $100K  (market value) and because of any one of many potential changes the property is worth $250k in three years, I would have done myself quite a disservice if I had rejected purchasing that property because cash flow at the time of purchase was 5% and not 7%  


      Don, you are absolutely right, I am also on team equity-over-cashflow. 7% is a solid number for a mature portfolio (>10 years old), year one break even is pretty good these days.

      Joe, the number one reason why tenants leave (by a long shot!) is they are not satisfied with the landlord/PM. High turnover will absolutely kill you bottom line, it is the single biggest expense you have. Tenants leave because the building sucks, is not maintained, there is stuff going on with some tenants, repairs take too long etc. David Greene unintentionally got a lot of people in trouble, his book is making it sound too easy and totally ignores the human element of contractors, PMs and tenants. 

      Without knowing the details, it seems to me you have two options: move there and systematically clean up with an iron fist or hire a better PM who you trust to do the same on your behalf. In both cases you'll have to spend more money before things will get better. 

      Identify and root out issues: get rid of bad tenants, improve the units & common elements, improve service and ultimatley tenant satisfaction - make it a desirable place to live, cut down turnover to under 10% (turnover costs you probably way more than better PM). This is basically what an investor does when they buy a turnaround project at an 8 cap..

      2Reply
    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      OP
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Don Konipol:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Joe S.:
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      Great post @Don Konipol. 

      In fairness, we all started dreaming about more doors. I know I did. When I first discovered the world of residential real estate investing, I was totally mesmerized (obsessed??) by the idea that I could own real estate other people live in. And that there is no limit to where you can scale, that's pretty cool.

      At some point you realize dreaming about 200 or 2000 doors is not that much different then counting the number of shares you have in your portfolio. You can buy a lot of penny stocks with $1,000.  When I was 8, I exchanged all my savings into rolls of pennies, because I could stack them like gold bars LOL. 

      In the beginning, collecting rent is really fun. But when you get to the point where chasing late rents is taking you more time than you have, you realize that your headaches have grown proportionally. At that point, you either have to start to hire people or you have become that grumpy landlord with 98 doors who still mows the lawn and picks up trash.

      Equity and net worth are of course better metrics. Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity. 

      I read a book once that introduced me to the concept of life-style design and that was eye opening. If you could design your life like it was a character in a book you write, what would that look like?

      There are things that are a lot more important than door count. For example:

      - can you ditch the alarm clock and get up when you want?
      - can you go skiing on a Tuesday just because there is fresh powder?
      - can you spend you day with things and people that are actually interesting?
      - do you have time?

       Cash flow is a risk-adjusted function of your equity. Typically arount 7% of your equity. So you can do the math backwards: if you want X in annual cash flow, you'll need 15x as much in equity.


      I know of an investor that has way more than 3.6 mill in equity  who’s not pulling down 240K cash flow a year from it. 😢


      Why not?? What's the issue? Is he pouring funds into capex? If so that would be fine, because that's basically reinvesting money to improve your assets in future value. 

      If you can't bring in 7% it's better to liquidate and deploy the equity elsewhere, even if that is an index fund

      “If you can't bring in 7% it's better to liquidate and deploy the equity elsewhere, even if that is an index fund”

      Not sure that’s always true.  I’ve purchased income producing property with little cash flow because I believed that near - medium term circumstances would raise property value significantly and or enable me to significantly increase rental rates.  Analyzing only CURRENT cash flow ignores future cash flow, price appreciation, and tax deferral. It’s a shortcut, then even if providing a “correct” answer 75% of the time ignores potential lucrative opportunities.  The BIG money isn’t made in cash flow, it’s made when a property is purchased at significantly less than the value of that property in the near - medium term future.  If I purchase a property today at $100K  (market value) and because of any one of many potential changes the property is worth $250k in three years, I would have done myself quite a disservice if I had rejected purchasing that property because cash flow at the time of purchase was 5% and not 7%  


      Don, you are absolutely right, I am also on team equity-over-cashflow. 7% is a solid number for a mature portfolio (>10 years old), year one break even is pretty good these days.

      Joe, the number one reason why tenants leave (by a long shot!) is they are not satisfied with the landlord/PM. High turnover will absolutely kill you bottom line, it is the single biggest expense you have. Tenants leave because the building sucks, is not maintained, there is stuff going on with some tenants, repairs take too long etc. David Greene unintentionally got a lot of people in trouble, his book is making it sound too easy and totally ignores the human element of contractors, PMs and tenants. 

      Without knowing the details, it seems to me you have two options: move there and systematically clean up with an iron fist or hire a better PM who you trust to do the same on your behalf. In both cases you'll have to spend more money before things will get better. 

      Identify and root out issues: get rid of bad tenants, improve the units & common elements, improve service and ultimatley tenant satisfaction - make it a desirable place to live, cut down turnover to under 10% (turnover costs you probably way more than better PM). This is basically what an investor does when they buy a turnaround project at an 8 cap..

      “High turnover will absolutely kill you bottom line”

      If you don’t FULLY understand this, you’ll never make money as a landlord. 
      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
      WebsiteView Page
      0Reply
  • Luka Milicevic
    Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    I started 11 years ago. My goal was literally....200 doors before I retire. 

    I quickly realized I want nothing less than to own that much real estate as it got me no where close to what I actually want. The amount of management I was doing when I scaled to double digits became a full time job....even with property management. 

    I started selling some stuff off and focused on equity vs sheer numbers. It has worked out very well for me. Quality over quantity is what I ended up focusing on. 

    Arbitrary numbers are pointless

    Start with WHY and work backwards from there....That's what I did and realized I needed so much less than what I originally though. 

    4Reply
  • Jon K.
    Rental Property Investor · Perry Hall, MD · Member since 2016 · 586 posts · 598 votes
    1y

    My goal is to own 0 doors and I'm failing... one day though...

    2Reply
  • Kathy Utiss
    Specialist · O'Fallon, MO · Member since 2010 · 148 posts · 46 votes
    1y

    200 doors is nothing. Once you figure out how to add value to everyone's life! Truth is it costs everyone $0 to see if they can use this one life each of us have to live to see if they can insure it against DEFAULT! Think about that! I figured this out after years of chasing my *** in this industry! 

    If I call you and tell you that you owe my client $50,000 then what I tell you should BE TRUE! Otherwise that could bring HARM into the picture. But who could think of all the things they would uncover in this life?

    So my biz partner is a life ins agent if one wants to use their health to see about insuring their debt creations/life against default they can now. As my biz partner got in contact with the correct people at the life ins company. If someone now has a $400,000 property with 15% equity ($60,000) the IUL they create will pay out every 8-13 years $400,000 it starts at 18- but if someone starts at 38 even they have a chance of getting paid out 5 times at $400,000 this is $2 million for $60,000. 

    Other benefits are tax deductions, long term care, and a death benefit. There is no refinance necessary as the life ins company has worked this out with top banks. The life insurance company that is in top place in America is having a call about this tomorrow as well! Imagine insuring income on your properties even if vacant for some reason say like COVID! Every American will be able to do this! Besides just JOBS that don't CUT IT FOR MILLIONS!

    0Reply
  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    OP in your neighborhood. Lightning stopped us for the night at Houston International.  

    Actually your door question made me think.  At one time we owned personally 1,300 doors.  About to build a 300 door location.   But Self storage.  Sounds good for the ego, but means nothing financially.

    We approached @James Hamling wife question about 4 years ago.  When is enough enough.  My theory was always “more”.   With a starting point of $300 cash, $100 pickup and a sack of clothes.  We finally hooked up with a wealth management firm.  The first year was just pulling together what we owned and putting it into their system.  Then we asked the question how much is enough.  
    1.  How to retire with no job?$$$$$.    With an annual living expense of $xxx

     
    2.    How to not worry about the stock market or our other investments going up or down.  We picked 5 years of living expenses in cash equivalents.  Our stock positions are our 20 year and further money.  Our midterm wealth are our real estate investments and cash flow.

    3.  Insurance to cover our exposure while in the middle of a development since it would loose 80% of its value if not completed.  Plus debt coverage.

    We found out we had to much worth.  Did a trust and assigned so much to our son.  Then to two other young relatives.   Then to several community projects whatever is left over.


    I used to do a similar exercise with high school kids who would come thru by asking them life style questions.  Spouse, kids, cars, boats, pay college, big house, vacations, etc etc.   Then back into annual pay.   Then back into a profession or college.  To help them answer how much is enough.  

    This would be a great exercise on a podcast or tool for new REI investors. Help them identify their REI path.

    2Reply
    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      OP
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Henry Clark:

      OP in your neighborhood. Lightning stopped us for the night at Houston International.  

      Actually your door question made me think.  At one time we owned personally 1,300 doors.  About to build a 300 door location.   But Self storage.  Sounds good for the ego, but means nothing financially.

      We approached @James Hamling wife question about 4 years ago.  When is enough enough.  My theory was always “more”.   With a starting point of $300 cash, $100 pickup and a sack of clothes.  We finally hooked up with a wealth management firm.  The first year was just pulling together what we owned and putting it into their system.  Then we asked the question how much is enough.  
      1.  How to retire with no job?$$$$$.    With an annual living expense of $xxx

       
      2.    How to not worry about the stock market or our other investments going up or down.  We picked 5 years of living expenses in cash equivalents.  Our stock positions are our 20 year and further money.  Our midterm wealth are our real estate investments and cash flow.

      3.  Insurance to cover our exposure while in the middle of a development since it would loose 80% of its value if not completed.  Plus debt coverage.

      We found out we had to much worth.  Did a trust and assigned so much to our son.  Then to two other young relatives.   Then to several community projects whatever is left over.


      I used to do a similar exercise with high school kids who would come thru by asking them life style questions.  Spouse, kids, cars, boats, pay college, big house, vacations, etc etc.   Then back into annual pay.   Then back into a profession or college.  To help them answer how much is enough.  

      This would be a great exercise on a podcast or tool for new REI investors. Help them identify their REI path.


       ”With a starting point of $300 cash, $100 pickup and a sack of clothes.”


      Living proof that the American dream is not dead - it’s just been reported that way by political interests 

      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
      WebsiteView Page
      1Reply
    • Jon K.
      Rental Property Investor · Perry Hall, MD · Member since 2016 · 586 posts · 598 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Henry Clark:

      OP in your neighborhood. Lightning stopped us for the night at Houston International.  

      Actually your door question made me think.  At one time we owned personally 1,300 doors.  About to build a 300 door location.   But Self storage.  Sounds good for the ego, but means nothing financially.

      We approached @James Hamling wife question about 4 years ago.  When is enough enough.  My theory was always “more”.   With a starting point of $300 cash, $100 pickup and a sack of clothes.  We finally hooked up with a wealth management firm.  The first year was just pulling together what we owned and putting it into their system.  Then we asked the question how much is enough.  
      1.  How to retire with no job?$$$$$.    With an annual living expense of $xxx

       
      2.    How to not worry about the stock market or our other investments going up or down.  We picked 5 years of living expenses in cash equivalents.  Our stock positions are our 20 year and further money.  Our midterm wealth are our real estate investments and cash flow.

      3.  Insurance to cover our exposure while in the middle of a development since it would loose 80% of its value if not completed.  Plus debt coverage.

      We found out we had to much worth.  Did a trust and assigned so much to our son.  Then to two other young relatives.   Then to several community projects whatever is left over.


      I used to do a similar exercise with high school kids who would come thru by asking them life style questions.  Spouse, kids, cars, boats, pay college, big house, vacations, etc etc.   Then back into annual pay.   Then back into a profession or college.  To help them answer how much is enough.  

      This would be a great exercise on a podcast or tool for new REI investors. Help them identify their REI path.


       Not to hijack the thread but the plan is something I'm struggling with right now. Hope you don't mind, just sent you a direct message to ask more about this.

      1Reply
  • Scott Mac
    Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    Grab the easy fruit - whatever that is for you.

    (and) Live a comfortable life.

    Good Luck!

    2Reply
  • Diego Benavides
    Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 11 votes
    1y

    Scale for the sake of ego doesn’t equal wealth or freedom. Cash flow, equity growth, and time freedom should be the drivers. I’m in this game for efficient wealth, not vanity metrics. I also think you can build both — create strong, cash-flowing investments and give back later once you’ve built the foundation. Appreciate you sharing this — it’s the kind of mindset that leads to real, sustainable success.

    1Reply
  • Jeb Durgin
    Lender · South Lake Tahoe, CA · Member since 2019 · 109 posts · 36 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:

    I’m seeing a lot of goals being expressed as “200 doors”, or “ but $10million in real estate”, or worse yet “ create housing for the community”.

    Why would I want to own “200 doors”?  What is each “door” was losing money?  How is it a goal to have a lot of money tied up, a large personal liability, and significant time for no return a goal?  Worse, if your goal is to provide housing for the community, you’re a community activist, not an investor.  Why confuse the two - if you’re a community activist who wants to provide housing then work with foundations that provide grants - don’t try to intertwine “doing good” with building your net worth.  The people who do the most good “win” at business, and then use a large part of their winnings for charity/public purpose.  Free market businesses do “good” by definition, they provide jobs, housing or products for the public.  There’s no need to make yourself feel superior by fooling yourself into believing that you’re somehow “better” than the “normal” business person. You’re not, you just don’t understand economics and have bought into the current socialism bs. 

    By I digress (LOL), back to the “doors“.  The goal should  be $X in cash flow monthly; or $X net worth by age 40.  Look, I don’t want he MOST anything, because that’s the MOST hassle, time consumption and risk.  I want to achieve my income or net worth goals with the LEAST - the least “doors”, the LEAST time commitment, the LEAST debt, and the LEAST risk.  


    You're totally right – chasing just "200 doors" or "$10 million in real estate" can be pretty misleading. What if those doors are bleeding you dry? And tying up a ton of cash with no return doesn't sound like a goal to me either.


    Now, if those 200 doors happen to be overlooking the ocean, or sitting right next to Disneyland, well, that's a different story, right? If the "doors" goal overlaps with other personal aspirations, like a dream location or a specific lifestyle, then I can definitely see the attraction. But on its own, purely as a number, it makes no sense.


    Instead of focusing on just accumulating properties, I think the real question we should all be asking is: "What's my retirement number? What monthly income from my investments would let me stop working?" That monthly cash flow is the real prize, isn't it? Every property you own should ideally be pushing you towards that specific income goal.


    So, for me, the number of doors is just a tool to get to that cash flow target. And doing it with the least hassle, debt, and risk (as you mentioned) just makes good financial sense. Thanks for bringing up this important topic!



    1Reply
  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    The door chasing phenomenon has gotten out of hand. I partially attribute this to the gurus and wannabe GP's who lie about their true real estate holdings. It makes the novices feel compelled to follow in their footsteps which almost always ends in buying the worst of the worst property with no money ever being made. My personal favorite is the rationale "I will earny XYZ monthly off each unit and once I get to XYZ units I can quit my W2".  If only real estate was that simple... well the gurus make it sound like it is. 

    [email protected]
    4Reply
    • Jeff S.
      Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      The door chasing phenomenon has gotten out of hand. I partially attribute this to the gurus and wannabe GP's who lie about their true real estate holdings. It makes the novices feel compelled to follow in their footsteps which almost always ends in buying the worst of the worst property with no money ever being made. My personal favorite is the rationale "I will earny XYZ monthly off each unit and once I get to XYZ units I can quit my W2".  If only real estate was that simple... well the gurus make it sound like it is. 

      True, but my favorite novice quote is, “I don’t care if I make money, because I’m doing this to learn.”

      2Reply
  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Jeff S. Haha yes, they are often the same people who spend thousands on guru education. There was a Pace Morby minion on here last year who was atempting to scale with Sub 2 and  professed that he did not care if he was under water as long as he was buying his property with none of his own cash and the property cash flowed. 

    [email protected]
    1Reply
    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      OP
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Jeff S. Haha yes, they are often the same people who spend thousands on guru education. There was a Pace Morby minion on here last year who was atempting to scale with Sub 2 and  professed that he did not care if he was under water as long as he was buying his property with none of his own cash and the property cash flowed. 

      Yeah, that is 1978 - 1980 stuff we used to hear when prices were increasing (inflation) 20% each year.  I knew more than a few investors who filed BK in 1981 as a result 
      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
      WebsiteView Page
      0Reply
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Jeff S. Haha yes, they are often the same people who spend thousands on guru education. There was a Pace Morby minion on here last year who was atempting to scale with Sub 2 and  professed that he did not care if he was under water as long as he was buying his property with none of his own cash and the property cash flowed. 


      if this guy does flame out the poeple that are going to be crushed are the folks who were not swift enough to understand to sell a property sub2 and they are still on the mortgage/ deed of trust is so very risky and to sell to someone with no equity is a fools erranad.
      Podcast Guest on Show #222
      JLH Capital Partners51 Review
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      0Reply
  • Chase Busick
    Realtor · Oklahoma City · Member since 2020 · 258 posts · 139 votes
    1y

    @Don Konipol I like all aspects of your post.

    I feel like so many people get sidetracked & focus too much on the crazy headlines, listen to too many of the people that have crazy amounts of doors & more.. A great book, that I first read within personal finance 11 years was The Millionaire Next Door... Too many people think that if I have this, I must be successful, when in all actuality it might not be... Same thing when it comes to almost everything in our daily lives & how we consume/use our money. 

    People should focus on the cash flow like you mentioned or how about working on several free & clear proeprties... They should not worry about impressing a ton of people or sell them that owe I have however many doors & am better than others.. There are so many things that happen behind the scenes & can imagine how many issues that many doors can bring. I love your last point with minimizing the amount of risk we bring on too & risk reduction. This can include all our life activities to decrease both inside & outside liability.

    0Reply
  • Doug P.
    Investor · Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    My real estate journey went something like this:

    1 rental taught me not to be a landlord.
    1 wholesale deal taught me not to spend my life stepping in trash.
    3 mortgages taught me not to personally guarantee unnecessary debt.
    500+ interactions taught me very few realtors are worth talking to.
    1 lease option + 1 agreement for sale taught me how to make money with none of the above.

    1Reply
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