Ethics Around Reducing Tax Liability

Ethics Around Reducing Tax Liability

New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 22 votes

Hi all, as I've been getting more into real estate investing, it's become quite clear that the US tax code favors business owners and real estate investors rather than W2 employees or self-employed business owners. On a personal level, I'm very excited about the idea of not paying more tax than I need to and creating a financial tailwind by taking advantage of tax breaks. I'm more than willing to continue to legally take as much advantage of the tax code as I can for me and my family. I have no interest in paying more than I need to at the cost of my family's freedom from financial stress. 

Having said that, in the current socio-economic climate where vast inequality and systematic disadvantages are at the forefront of the national conversation, quite frankly I'm feeling guilty about building a business that is reducing my total tax liability because I feel as though I'm taking advantage and participating in a financial system that is causing so much pain for so many. 

So those are the two sides to the coin that I'm debating between. I am a capitalist because I believe it's the only system that works on a large scale (don't want to open that can of worms here) but I don't believe in completely uncontrolled and ungoverned capitalism because it allows for the powerful to retain their power forever at the cost of the many. I believe in creating checks and balances in the system to make sure that as many people as possible have similar opportunities for financial, educational, and spiritual success. 

Would love to hear thoughts from others in the community who also philosophically fall somewhere between Mr. Monopoly and Karl Marx :) 

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Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y

If you feel guilty about reducing your taxes, you can pay mine.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y

    in my mind there is only one metric when it comes to tax's is it legal .. we are a country of laws as long as your following the laws it has zero to do with ethics.. if you want to do things for others do as has been suggested and donate to charity or other volunteer situations.

  • Rental Property Investor · Luck, WI · Member since 2020 · 13 posts · 5 votes
    4y

    @Hank Olken

    Avoid taxes at all cost. It’s the American way.

    I am still trying my hardest to find the best tax accountant/CPA that keeps me just on the right side of legal haha!

    Death and taxes, y’know.

  • Property Manager · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 596 votes
    4y

    @Hank Olken

    Who knows best how to spend the money you legally earn? If you donate $1 to a charity, the charity of your choice gets $1 to use. If you give $1 to the feds in taxes, they will first waste about 80% in admin fees (I think 2 million people directly work for fed and then more contractors but could be wrong), then choose some scheme to spend your .20 cents on that will most directly benefit the politicians chances of reelection.

    Who knows what your labor should buy better than you, or in my case, my wife.

  • Rental Property Investor · Muncie, IN · Member since 2020 · 18 posts · 15 votes
    4y

    @Hank Olken Kudos to you for considering this issue. I think you should figure out your convictions and live according to them.

    I read a book a few years back that helped form my thoughts around tax code. Congress writes taxes to incentivize certain behaviors and if you comply, they reward you with tax breaks. You can look through the tax breaks and basically write a prescription for how congress wants you to live. Get married, buy a home, have children, own your own business, reinvest in your business, own other real estate, give to charities, save for retirement, save for medical expenses, make your home more energy efficient, etc. Tax law isn’t perfect but the best way to change it is through legislature.

    My conviction is to comply with the laws as their written. I’ve chosen to order my life in a way that capitalizes on almost all of those tax breaks and so I benefit from them.

    I’m glad to see that you’re thinking critically! Hopefully this thread is helpful.

  • Real Estate Agent · Burlington MA · Member since 2018 · 113 posts · 142 votes
    4y

    We have a saying - "it's not who eats the bread, but who gives it to him". If you want to get some of the "guilt" of your shoulders, you could rent to Section 8 tenants. On the can of worms, I lived in communism. It only looks good on paper and from distance!

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Paul, MN · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    If you feel guilty, you can always donate money to the government!

    The tax law is set up to award people that are creating jobs and new goods. As a business owner and RE investor, you will be doing that. Also, everything you buy and sell will be taxed. Even though I pay very little income tax, I pay millions in property tax, sales tax, etc. 

    Personally, I take my tax savings and reinvest it into my community and donate it to charities that are doing good work. 

  • New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 22 votes
    4y

    @Michael Standish what's the book you read? That sounds interesting I'd love to read it! 

  • Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    You are under no legal obligation to pay more in taxes than you have to. Tax avoidance is within the law, tax evasion is not. 

    The tax code is an incentive based system, not a punishment based system.

    You are rewarded for making charitable contributions. You are rewarded for holding capital long term and not short term. 

    Earned income has almost zero incentive. 

    I don't know that anyone should feel bad about paying as little as they possibly can to the most inefficient institution known to man. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Hank Olken Kudos to you for posting this.  Most comments seem to be against you.

    Warren Buffet is on record saying the tax system favors the wealthy.

    I share your concerns and include myself in the wealthy category, but I, like Warren Buffet, will still take advantage of every tax break I can.  Why?  Because this is a systemic problem.  It cannot be solved by relying on altruism.  If altruism worked we wouldn't have a tax system at all.

    But that doesn't mean you or I can't give to charity.  We won't solve systemic problems but we can contribute to solving problems for a few people.

  • Rental Property Investor · Accokeek, MD · Member since 2020 · 106 posts · 87 votes
    4y

    @Hank Olken

    While I appreciate your nobility, the government wastes 75 cents of every dollar.

    Don’t worry about the government. Paying taxes does NOT create equality. The government has a few real jobs in society but even those they are doing poorly. Haha I work for the government and it’s a hard pill to swallow.

    So here’s how you MAKE A DIFFERENCE:

    Earn as much as you can. Keep as much as you can by limiting your tax burdens. Then, participate in lord of giving and charity work. That’s what really serves social issues not government programs that borderline imprison people.

  • David ButlerPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Lake Geneva, WI · Member since 2016 · 39 posts · 27 votes
    4y

    I don't think this is an ethics question.  Unless you are cheating the system (lying), you are following the rules set up.  Every single person wants to pay as little in tax as they can and if the folks who write the tax code give you the ability to use it, it is perfectly legal (and therefore no ethics questions) to do. Hearing the president and congress whine about the rich not paying their fair share is ironic as they are the ones who decided how much the rich should pay.

  • Investor · Bernalillo, NM · Member since 2017 · 14 posts · 5 votes
    4y

    You are welcome to send any additional amount of tax to the government that you want, for any reason, instead of using it for your family. For this reason I do not understand what the issue is. 

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2018 · 18 posts · 17 votes
    4y

    For every investor who takes on large risk of bankruptcy and financial ruin, sacrifices time from family and fun, works very hard to build a business, there are more attempting to or already defrauding the government welfare/disability/etc programs to not have to work a day in their life. The tax code "favors" the investor/business as incentive to provide housing and employment that runs the economy. I sleep like a baby paying less in taxes after a long hard day getting a house ready for rent but that's just me!

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    We stay up at night worrying about different things however I like the discussion you opened.  I won't get too political here however if you truly believe the government will spend the money to benefit the American people better than you could benefit society I believe this business may not be for you due to questionable money management.  We pass spending bills that are literally thousands of pages in a few hours, no one knows what we are spending money on and we are all too comfortable spending more than we make.  Personally, I feel there should be a multiple choice scantron for legislators to get quizzed on the bills and if they fail they don't get a vote.  If your party creates it the other creates the test so better watch what you put in there because results and content are published.  To really simplify this, I am a fan of getting rid of income tax completely and creating a consumption tax.  Everyone spends money, the rich spend more so they are paying a higher dollar amount in tax but the same % everyone else.  The downside is annually the poor are taxed on 100% of income since they spend all they make but all money gets spent eventually.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 78 votes
    4y

    Our government has proven themselves to be awful stewards of currency. The tax money we pay gets shoveled down a bottomless rat hole. Use every single legal loophole and deduction that you can find and then give as much as your heart desires directly to those in need.

  • Investor · Eastern Pennsylvania · Member since 2021 · 18 posts · 9 votes
    4y

    Another way to look at it is, without having created a business, do you take advantages of any offered tax deductions/write off in your personal taxes, or send in extra payment from any abundance you may have to the government.  The scenarios are slightly different but closely related.

    In real estate, a business that doesn't take advantage of tax code benefits which are intentionally written into law has reduced flexibility: Increase the cost to the consumer to make up the difference, reduce cashflow which will increase risk to the business in a down turn/CapEx situation, or force you to pass on opportunities to provide housing to people that otherwise couldn't afford it. Charging less for rent or filing your taxes specifically excluding the deductions is always an option, but I see the tax code as a way for the government to encourage behavior they want to see more (or less) of, in this case providing housing.

  • Real Estate Agent · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    The government has created a tax system to drive behavior.  It is in the collective good for people to own thier own homes.  Thus, the deductibility of mortgage interest.  Depreciation encourages business to replace their assets sooner.  It creates economic activity and frees up assets on the secondary market for goods that may not be available otherwise, i.e. an old truck that is purchased by a new business.  When an existing business purchases a new truck to replace the old one.

    As far as the morality of paying or not paying, that is the vanilla / chocolate argument.  What I do believe strongly is that giving a bunch or drunk teenagers a credit card with a multi-trillion spend limit ends badly for everyone.

  • Jason B.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2017 · 228 posts · 180 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Dallas Mosier:

    There is an apt idiom that is quite applicable to taxes: "Pigs get fat. Hogs get slaughtered." So, you play aggressively with the rules in front of you, but don't obviously break them. 

    And, as a tax lawyer, my two favorite judicial tax quotes (both by Justice Learned Hand):

    "Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."

    Helvering v. Gregory, 69 F.2d 809, 810-11 (2d Cir. 1934).

    "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant."

    Commissioner v. Newman, 159 F2d 848 (1947)

    "Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."

    Was going to quote this but you beat me to it!

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