Frustrations With RE Investing

Account Closed · 2017-11-15T10:45:01-08:00

Hi everyone!Some quick background info on me. I've been involved with REI since I was a child through my dad. He's a very successful real estate developer here in California and over the past 20 years, he's developed several dozen commercial and residential properties. I would visit all the sites with him when I was a child and saw all the properties go from an empty patches of land to fully operating businesses. I then later managed all his residential properties when I was in college. I've saved for years and now that I'm in my late 20s (should have started much sooner), I'm ready to invest my own money and start my own business in RE. My dad is a great angel investor that I can used to fund my deals, and I've already learned a tremendous amount from him.Problem is, I'm not seeing eye to eye with my dad. He's insisting that now is a horrible time to enter the market as prices are very high and that a recession is coming soon which will cause prices to drop, creating a great opportunity to buy. As such, I can't really convince him to fund any properties I'm finding. Furthermore, all his properties are in California (we live in LA) and he’s not keen on investing outside of CA.I can't help but question my dad's strategy/advice. He acquired all his properties in the 90s and then again during the recession, so he's used to buying RE when prices are VERY low. He’s also an all-cash buyer, so his acquisitions were all done on a cash basis at times when cash really could knock off a tremendous amount from asking prices. He’s made many “low-ball” cash offers in the past and most have worked out; I don’t think it’s possible to do that anymore, at least here in California/LA.Perhaps I’m wrong and I’m just being inpatient, I don’t want to wait anymore, I want to take action and I’m open to investing out of state, not just here in CA. My question is, do I listen to my dad and sit tight, or do I go against his advice and get into the RE market now?

Dan Wickland

Rental Property Investor · wyoming · Member since 2017 · 76 posts · 73 votes

8y

Hey @Account Closed

A few points from my perspective:

- Dad is clearly intelligent and worth listening to, however he has just one of dozens of available strategies! While your Dad isn't buying anything investors are getting amazing deals every day
- There's always a way to fund properties, with or without your Dad!
- There's a crazy amount of opportunity that's far more affordable outside of CA! I would strongly consider researching and moving to another market!
- If you want to only make money the method your Dad has in the market he has then probably listen to him, otherwise don't

I think it is important to ask what's your goal with investing and what is your time frame, and also, ask is playing the waiting game in the family business worth the downside of not getting started straight away, paving your own way for success in a different market, and having to deal with family regularly.

I personally would strongly consider taking your savings, moving away from your Dad and to a market where you can stretch your dollar the furthest. Tell Dad it's important for you to make it on your own and that you fully respect his success and advice regardless. I used to work for family and I can say once I stopped working there's an incredible sense of fulfillment, growth and satisfaction that I don't think you can have in a family business as much as you can on your own and not having family to help. Just my opinion!

2 Reply

Steve Vaughan

Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

8y

Buying cheap for cash is one way to do it, but there are many others.

If all I did was wait to pull the trigger only at say, 70% of FMV minus repairs, I'd have a total of 2 little houses. Maybe 3. Whoopee.

Those of us who have been through a down turn are flinching at today's prices for sure. I'm selling my least favorite little houses easily by owner and scoffing at asking prices, too, if I even bother looking anymore.

While it would have been neat (kind of- for a while) if my dad was in RE and had a business I worked at as an employee to boot, having had to be the black sheep and break from the norm on my own has made me more scrappy and creative.

I'd keep dad in my tool bag just in case a screaming cash deal comes along, but would also be stocked with knowledge of seller financing, especially. Find a tired landlord that wants out @Account Closed. Take different routes to work and drive for dollars, looking for tired plexes and send the owners a letter!

1 Reply

Tim Youse

Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 153 posts · 158 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Bettina, my dad is willing to help fund any properties I find for myself. I don't need to turn to a bank or a private investor for loans when my dad can provide a loan (at zero interest). While I do have my own money and can get loans, my savings are limited. The caveat is that he has to approve of the property; if he doesn't think it's a good investment, if the price isn't right, etc. then its a no go.

It sounds like you're limiting yourself. You are getting in your own way by getting in the mindset that you can only use your dad's money. If you find a deal that works for him - great - do it, however if YOU believe in the deals you want your dad to fund, but he won't, then sack up and get funding for them - prove him wrong.

Are we heading for a recession? Perhaps - but they've been saying that for the past 3 or 4 years and in that time properties have gone up 30% or more in some places. If you are planning to buy and hold, then acquire properties that cash flow from day 1 and it won't matter if prices go down - as rents are typically not affected by the RE market.

If prices go down in the future, THEN get your dad's money. He can afford to wait, as from the sounds of it, he's already established a successful RE business.

So in reality, you're not frustrated with RE investing - you're just frustrated with your Dad.

4 Reply

Linda S.

Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

8y

@Account Closed,

There is a lot of value in experience, and while you've been around it, when it's completely 100% yours it's different. I'd say find another investor or strategy to invest where YOU think it's worth it.. . if you want cash flow, likely it will be out of state, so it will be a whole new ball game but it can be done, but it's not what he knows works so of course he'll say to stay the path of what he knows works! Having cash is power.. cash is king.. you can demand huge discounts when people are desperate..., but just realize if you stay with him funding it all, he'll be calling all the shots, and if a disagreement happens-- whoever has the money wins.. and yeah, that's your dad.

I say go out, and find deals outside your market, and build relationships and teams based on your ability, without your dad!

1 Reply

Dave FosterBusiness Member

Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes

8y

@Account Closed, I get the impatience. We all want to be doing growing achieving. But sometimes doing nothing is doing something. Waiting can be an active verb.

Your words:

1. My dad is very successful.

2. He bought at the bottom of multiple markets

3. He is very successful

4. He offers and gets low ball offers

5. He is very successful and has money to be my angel investor

6. He tells me to wait.

Whether it's your dad sitting on the sidelines waiting for the next correction or an institutional hedge fund liquidating to cash in anticipation of a buying opportunity, or Apple and Google sitting on, well, googles of cash waiting for the right opportunities.

The theme that your dad lives and is telling you - wait, be patient, the market will come to you. Success is as much not getting a bad deal as it is getting a good deal. Conversely failure isn't not getting a good deal. It's getting the deal you shouldn't have.

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2 Reply

Kyle Godbout

Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 184 votes

8y

If you are intent on investing in California. I would listen to your dad and wait for an adjustment. Until that time, I would invest outside of Californian, probably in the Midwest where more deals can be found still and cash flow is possible. Either use your own money if available, or partner up.

1 Reply

Joseph M.

Flipper/Rehabber · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 732 votes

8y

Wesam Saghir , it can be challenging trying to work with family . I can see your father's side though . All his experience is in CA , and it's worked out well for him so he has little incentive to invest out of state . Prices right now in SoCal are definitely pretty crazy. People are still doing deals in CA of course. I'm guessing your father isn't actively pursuing deals now because he doesn't have to especially since he has another business as you mentioned which is an accounting firm. Since he's been in the business decades I'm sure he has a lot of connections in the industry and it seems likely some of them are still active and pursuing deals. How about seeing if you can somehow work with one of them ? Maybe partnering or having them fund a deal of yours ? Maybe one of them would be interesting in diversifying out of state ? Also just curious where are you considering out of state and what strategy ? Best of luck .

1 Reply

Joseph M.

Flipper/Rehabber · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 732 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Christine Kankowski:

Its tough not to listen to someone with all the years of experience he has.

Keep an eye out for a property that you might flip. They are out there and there is competition for them, but if you are ready with cash and jump on it with an easy offer for the seller, you will get a deal.

I just sold a house in Santa ana for 675K and its worth 800 after rehab. (maybe 45-50K to put into it) Someone is going to make some money on this deal. Sellers just wanted a quick easy sale. These are the types of deals you can bring your dad and show you will make money now

Best of luck.

Another avenue is saving your own money for long-term buy and holds out of state where you only need $50-100K to buy a house in full. No loan needed, and they cash flow nicely.

Christine, regarding the Santa Ana house one would be in it at 725k (purchase +repairs)not including any holding or financing costs. Then realtor commission would be 6% . You'd be left with 752k. So profit of $27,000 but that's if you paid all cash for purchase and rehab and not taking into account holding costs. It seems like someone would lose money on that if they tried to flip.

Unless I'm reading it wrong.

1 Reply

Nataly D.

Worcester, MA · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes

8y

I would say to go out on your own and learn from your own mistakes. Your dad could be right about a recession, it could happen now or many years from now. Sounds like you don't have the patience for the chance that it may take many years.

No matter what the market is like there is always an opportunity to make money. Perhaps instead of telling your dad about the deal and asking for advice make you own judgment about a property and ask him to loan you money, this way it would be more on your dad lending you the money than the property. Either way I wish you luck!

0 Reply

Account Closed

OP

Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 73 posts · 56 votes

8y

Thank you all for the great advice! Some good stuff here that definitely lends perspective.

@Joseph M. I lived in Kansas City, Missouri for a bit so I am familiar with housing there. Houses in the area I am most familiar with go for around $350,000 with rent going for $1,200 - $1,400. I have enough saved up to put 20% down on one and use the rent and my income from work here to help pay for the rest.

0 Reply

Joseph M.

Flipper/Rehabber · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 732 votes

8y

@Account Closed , Oh ok interesting you lived in Kansas City , never been there but heard good things. I've never really looked at prices there but $350k sounds high. With 20% down (loan of $280k) the note alone would eat up all your cash flow.

Would this be an appreciation play?

Edit: I just did a real quick search on KC on redfin and saw this. I'd probably be looking at stuff like that if I was looking in that market. Might be in a real bad area though since I know nothing about KC.

https://www.redfin.com/MO/Kansas-City/3212-Benton-...

A duplex for $64,000 . Listing shows rents or projected rents of $ 775 , $750 .

1 Reply

Christine Kankowski

Real Estate Broker · Temecula, CA · Member since 2014 · 992 posts · 782 votes

8y

@Joseph M. Realtor commission is 1% on both sides on this deal. Investors and their agents were jumping at the chance . That is an additional $32K saved off an $800K selling price. We got multiple offers from all cash investors and a few from regular buyers who wanted the house. Plenty of room to make some money. Just have to know not to overspend on the rehab :)

2 Reply

Joseph M.

Flipper/Rehabber · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 732 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Christine Kankowski:

@Joseph M. Realtor commission is 1% on both sides on this deal. Investors and their agents were jumping at the chance . That is an additional $32K saved off an $800K selling price. We got multiple offers from all cash investors and a few from regular buyers who wanted the house. Plenty of room to make some money. Just have to know not to overspend on the rehab :)

Wow 1% sounds crazy low for commission .

How often are agents taking commissions like this? Yeah that's the thing not too much margin. Also what if market starts changing in the middle of rehab? I guess just seems like quite a lot of money to put up for the return...but I know people are doing it.

1 Reply

Account Closed

OP

Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 73 posts · 56 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Joseph M.:

@Account Closed , Oh ok interesting you lived in Kansas City , never been there but heard good things. I've never really looked at prices there but $350k sounds high. With 20% down (loan of $280k) the note alone would eat up all your cash flow.

Would this be an appreciation play?

Edit: I just did a real quick search on KC on redfin and saw this. I'd probably be looking at stuff like that if I was looking in that market. Might be in a real bad area though since I know nothing about KC.

https://www.redfin.com/MO/Kansas-City/3212-Benton-...

A duplex for $64,000 . Listing shows rents or projected rents of $ 775 , $750 .

Yea $350k is a bit high but the home (4bed/3bath) is in a good area that I frequented when I lived there. I'd probably have to go back and visit to and check out other areas for other properties under $100k.

0 Reply

Brian H.

Carolina · Member since 2017 · 519 posts · 222 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Don't read if you are Squirmy Wormy type.

I don't know many employerS who would keep an employee with ZEROOOOOOOOOO productivity unless that person is a relative..............lol.

Shotgunning in a hot market exhibits bad judgement. This bad judgement is why your DAD has to approve your deals, you need to show him something first.

It could be RE is not your thing.

I trying to be polite!

Haha I understand your perspective. My dad operates two businesses: he's a CPA with a large firm centered around small businesses and REI and he has his real estate development company on the side. I'm taking over the accounting firm and that is where I work full time (six days a week, 12+ hours a day so I'm VEEEEEEEERY productive) but I'd ultimately like to do RE developing and investing full time. Any and all free time I have left goes to RE and generating deals. He's in no hurry to buy properties at the moment so me not landing any deals yet in no way hurts business.

Remind me of me in regards to the produtivity level. I run a very busy restaurant. 75+ hour weeks are very common and regular. Any extra time? REI! haha

Listen, you sound like a hard worker. You did 7 years pre-med (that aint easy) and you work long hours taking over the business. You are clearly intelligent as well. These qualities will definitely get you far no matter what you choose to do.

My recommendation is this. Work. Run the firm. Make those bucks!!! Do REI on the side, for now, and turn every penny your REI makes right back into your REI business. Survive on the CPA firm money. That will grow your REI business much quicker. That's what I am doing too. I survive off the decent salary in this company I work for and turn every penny I make back around and put it back into my side REI business. I set myself a "10 year plan". I will keep doing this very exhausting, intense job for 10 years, all the while turning every penny I make from REI right back into my business. I can't imagine how quickly this will grow my business. After 10 years, I plan to drop my day job and just do REI. At that point I will be 45. Plenty young enough!! You are even younger than I am! You have so much time to make this happen. Not saying it has to be 10 years, but you have an amazing advantage SO many people will never have with this accounting firm. Take advantage and grow your money even faster!! Hell, if you don't want to, call me, I have a degree in Actuarial Science with a minor in Finance. I will do it! ;-P

Lastly, make this your own. You want a lender that doesn't have such restrictions on you. Do take your dad's experience and lean on him for advice, but I would really suggest maybe talking to some conventional and hard money lenders to see how hard it would be to do this yourself.

Just my two cents...

3 Reply

Jennifer Shuler

Investor · Mount Vernon, WA · Member since 2013 · 20 posts · 10 votes

8y

Just my opinion, but my husband and I live in Washington state where it is really a seller's market right now (very low inventory). We are working on our fourth rehab. I personally think there are always good deals to be found. You just have to look harder and think creatively, as our mentor tells us, start looking under blackberry bushes....we do a lot of driving and card writing to potential sellers. You might have to look farther out but you should be able to find something.

3 Reply

Arlen Chou

Investor · Los Altos, CA · Member since 2014 · 942 posts · 1k+ votes

8y

@Account Closed I cannot really answer your question as it is very generic. There are many "family" dynamics and they are all unique. My personal answer to which counts most does not necessarily translate to somebody else who has a different biological "family" dynamic vs created" family dynamic.

The OP was talking about his father, so I was commenting on the need to separate his mind/emotions between "personal" and "professional" decision making. I assume that they have a good father/son relationship or they would not have started to work together. However, they are currently not "partners". It is an employer/employee or mentor/mentee or father/son, what ever you want to call it, relationship. The struggle especially in family money situations is to get past this point and move to a point of professional parity.

2 Reply

Robert Rademan

Real Estate Agent · Parrish, FL · Member since 2017 · 13 posts · 11 votes

8y

As hard as it may sound now.... just listen. Obviously he has been there done that and I’m sure being a father myself only wants you to succeed in life probably even more than he has. Take a deep breath, your time or should I say your deal will come. Good luck

1 Reply

Andrey Y.

Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Michael Plante:

Your dad is right CA is overvalued

forget about your dad

Make your own way

You have been mentally relying on your dad too long already

You are frozen

Get out in the world and invest where you want. Which to me is outside CA

I think you are right especially if pops doesn't own the accounting firm.

Something doesn't add up. Why don't you have any money if all you do is work? Girls?...............lol. Dealing and accounting for deals are not the same skill set, compatible but still different.

Dad does own the firm and it's very lucrative and it's what has provided him with plenty of income to develop properties.

I was pre-med for seven years before I decided to take over the family businesses, which wasn't until a few years ago. I do have money and no, I don't spend it on girls.

Why were you pre-med for 7 years? College takes 4. This leads me to believe you weren't willing to work hard and/or willing to do whatever it takes.

College/pre-med/applying took me 4 years and I went straight through. You could now be earning $300-500K per year not needing your dad to fund your deals. Focus and stop looking for the easy way.

0 Reply

Account Closed

OP

Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 73 posts · 56 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Andrey Y.:

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Michael Plante:

Your dad is right CA is overvalued

forget about your dad

Make your own way

You have been mentally relying on your dad too long already

You are frozen

Get out in the world and invest where you want. Which to me is outside CA

I think you are right especially if pops doesn't own the accounting firm.

Something doesn't add up. Why don't you have any money if all you do is work? Girls?...............lol. Dealing and accounting for deals are not the same skill set, compatible but still different.

Dad does own the firm and it's very lucrative and it's what has provided him with plenty of income to develop properties.

I was pre-med for seven years before I decided to take over the family businesses, which wasn't until a few years ago. I do have money and no, I don't spend it on girls.

Why were you pre-med for 7 years? College takes 4. This leads me to believe you weren't willing to work hard and/or willing to do whatever it takes.

College/pre-med/applying took me 4 years and I went straight through. You could now be earning $300-500K per year not needing your dad to fund your deals. Focus and stop looking for the easy way.

4 years of college, 2 years for a masters, I took one year off to just study for the MCAT while doing hundreds of hours of volunteer work at hospitals all over So Cal and working part time. Not sure where you concluded that I don't work hard or don't want it bad enough.

I could be earning six figures right now had I not chosen to pursue medicine. That was a mistake on my part and I'm not blaming anyone for anything nor am I looking for an easy way out.

3 Reply

Brian H.

Carolina · Member since 2017 · 519 posts · 222 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Andrey Y.:

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Michael Plante:

Your dad is right CA is overvalued

forget about your dad

Make your own way

You have been mentally relying on your dad too long already

You are frozen

Get out in the world and invest where you want. Which to me is outside CA

I think you are right especially if pops doesn't own the accounting firm.

Something doesn't add up. Why don't you have any money if all you do is work? Girls?...............lol. Dealing and accounting for deals are not the same skill set, compatible but still different.

Dad does own the firm and it's very lucrative and it's what has provided him with plenty of income to develop properties.

I was pre-med for seven years before I decided to take over the family businesses, which wasn't until a few years ago. I do have money and no, I don't spend it on girls.

Why were you pre-med for 7 years? College takes 4. This leads me to believe you weren't willing to work hard and/or willing to do whatever it takes.

College/pre-med/applying took me 4 years and I went straight through. You could now be earning $300-500K per year not needing your dad to fund your deals. Focus and stop looking for the easy way.

Felt like a really unnecessary comment, honestly. I have a friend that is an OB/GYN and another that is an Oral Surgeon. Both of these guys were in school about 8 or so years. Why make a comment to him about his work ethic or drive when you don't know him or what path he was taking in the medical field? He is asking about REI here.

Can't figure out why people in this thread seem to be making comments like this or in reference to his dad funding his deals? I did suggest doing it on his own but really couldn't care less that his father would possibly be willing to help him fund. It is no different than finding a private lender. The dad just seemd a bit more restrictive than a conventional or hard money lender (as I am sure most parents would be in this scenario), hence why I suggest he talks to some of those other folks.

No reason for anyone to comment on any other aspect of his life...

8 Reply

Account Closed

OP

Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 73 posts · 56 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Brian H.:

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Don't read if you are Squirmy Wormy type.

I don't know many employerS who would keep an employee with ZEROOOOOOOOOO productivity unless that person is a relative..............lol.

Shotgunning in a hot market exhibits bad judgement. This bad judgement is why your DAD has to approve your deals, you need to show him something first.

It could be RE is not your thing.

I trying to be polite!

Haha I understand your perspective. My dad operates two businesses: he's a CPA with a large firm centered around small businesses and REI and he has his real estate development company on the side. I'm taking over the accounting firm and that is where I work full time (six days a week, 12+ hours a day so I'm VEEEEEEEERY productive) but I'd ultimately like to do RE developing and investing full time. Any and all free time I have left goes to RE and generating deals. He's in no hurry to buy properties at the moment so me not landing any deals yet in no way hurts business.

Remind me of me in regards to the produtivity level. I run a very busy restaurant. 75+ hour weeks are very common and regular. Any extra time? REI! haha

Listen, you sound like a hard worker. You did 7 years pre-med (that aint easy) and you work long hours taking over the business. You are clearly intelligent as well. These qualities will definitely get you far no matter what you choose to do.

My recommendation is this. Work. Run the firm. Make those bucks!!! Do REI on the side, for now, and turn every penny your REI makes right back into your REI business. Survive on the CPA firm money. That will grow your REI business much quicker. That's what I am doing too. I survive off the decent salary in this company I work for and turn every penny I make back around and put it back into my side REI business. I set myself a "10 year plan". I will keep doing this very exhausting, intense job for 10 years, all the while turning every penny I make from REI right back into my business. I can't imagine how quickly this will grow my business. After 10 years, I plan to drop my day job and just do REI. At that point I will be 45. Plenty young enough!! You are even younger than I am! You have so much time to make this happen. Not saying it has to be 10 years, but you have an amazing advantage SO many people will never have with this accounting firm. Take advantage and grow your money even faster!! Hell, if you don't want to, call me, I have a degree in Actuarial Science with a minor in Finance. I will do it! ;-P

Lastly, make this your own. You want a lender that doesn't have such restrictions on you. Do take your dad's experience and lean on him for advice, but I would really suggest maybe talking to some conventional and hard money lenders to see how hard it would be to do this yourself.

Just my two cents...

Thanks Brian! Looks like we're sharing the same strategy. I'm more than willing to put in the 70+ hour work weeks in the firm, long hours don't bother me, and any free time is going to learning REI (not much time for anything else).

But I do agree with you and what others have said, REI needs to be my own. I won't get to where I want to get to without paving my own way, whether now or down the road.

0 Reply

Matt R.

Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

8y

Your dads strategy has been a sure fire way to hit home runs. I assume he does not do buy and hold, redevelop, reposition, hard money, or flip as much. Either way you might have to come up with alternative visions and methods to get some base hits as your dads investment time windows are going happen a lot less. Lets say about 80%+ less.

Good luck!

1 Reply

Charlotte Edwards

Beloit, WI · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 40 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Aron D.:

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

I'm with your DAD! Prices are terrible. EVEN SAM ZELL says so. Its time to sell not buy!

All this funny Fed money floating around is just distorting things. Can you explain the stock market rising with no wage growth, no inflation, etc. I surely cant.

Someone paid $700,000 a room for a Waikiki Hotel recently- its absolutely not make sense.

It is most likely foreign investors that bought up the property. We sold a condo on Oahu 2 years ago and it was a Chinese investor. They are parking their money in U.S. assets as the foreign investors don't trust their own government's with their money.

Or because they get waaaayyy more for their money in the USA. Some parts of Beijing the price is up to $15,000 US per square meter! Even the Podunk town I live in, prices are getting crazier every year. This is why we've bought two houses in the Midwest, rather than locally. We get positive cash flow on them; here, there's no way to get enough rent to cover a mortgage.

0 Reply

Sam White

Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 85 posts · 248 votes

8y

Sounds like peacocks gotta fly. You say you don't need a lender or other investors because you have dad's money to invest. But if daddy won't write a deal, you got nothing. Maybe he wants you to show him you're a man and make it happen on your own.

0 Reply

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