Confused About the Validity of RE Investing - Need Help

Confused About the Validity of RE Investing - Need Help

Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes

I do apologize for the long post here, but there’s a lot to get out here.

I’m posting in hopes of getting real data and information from folks before making the plunge into my first RE deal. I need a mental adjustment and I need someone to tell me how it really is. I will say up front, I have seen so much conflicting information on this space and where the market is at currently, I’ve been airing on the side of caution and waiting for a market pullback on valuations. This may be the wrong play but it’s what has caused a serious mental battle going on in my head.

By way of situation, I’m 27, have $225k in liquid cash, and make $300k cash comp per year in a high finance role (~75 hours per week, so very little free time). I have worked in investment banking, private debt, commercial banking, and private equity all at “prestigious” firms and closed $30bn+ worth of deals. I only mention this for background info as I have a very deep knowledge base in finance and in all business sizes. I have been for several years looking at real estate as a way to generate passive free cash flow and hopefully find a process where I can pour my bonus money each year into new deals. I feel like I’m very blessed and lucky to be in my current situation and that I could be better utilizing my financial situation to build real wealth instead of clawing away at it annually via W2 wage income only (and saving only ~$70k/year).

Unfortunately when I model out deals, with today’s cap rate environment, I can’t find anything that generates meaningful levered free cash flow. It’s looking to me that a lot of the success in real estate comes from capital appreciation, which in my opinion is luck derived from speculation (maybe I’m wrong? But the prices in one area should reflect the current market price, even if expectations of growth in the area are projected to continue, this should all be factored into the price right?). But then we have all of these guys online (marketing), or Rich Dad Poor Dad, talking about how real estate is a ticket to passive income, etc etc. I’m running the numbers and thinking the whole traditional method of buying a rental asset and it requiring very little active work, generating significant sustainable free cash flow over a long period of time, does not exist. Sure there are buy and build strategies (I.e. renovating, fixing up, flipping, etc) but that is active work and frankly I haven’t build an eye for that yet and think there’s more risk.

I can take an example of a triplex property in Bridgeport CT I was looking at (and I have many many more) Purchase price of $225k. It threw off $15k in unlevered FCF a year, was roughly a 7 cap (which is really low for low income class C, right?). After my P&I of $10k a year I was left with $5k in FCF. Now this does NOT include capex spend, so if it needs a new roof or if something material broke, there's the whole two years of FCF gone. Furthermore, as we all know the first few years of mortgage payments are mostly all interest expense and less principal, so my outstanding balance on the debt is remaining roughly the same. Sure, after 25 years it'd pay down, and my FCF could be higher. But that's a very long time and looking at that IRR, it's really like 6-7%. If things don't go wrong and I'm not buying at the top of the market. Market falls 15-20% and that property trades for $200k going forward, that's $25k in unrealized capital loss, or roughly 5 years of FCF. At that point, why wouldn't you just buy a REIT? Diversified and 7-9% dividend yield with actually no direct active management.

What am I missing here?

I feel like there has to be a ton of bad deals out there you just never hear about. It’s just like the stock market, go on YouTube and there’s a ton of guys talking about their trading strategies and how you can beat the market. I won’t get into too many details here, but the reality is hedge funds spend millions per year buying algorithms that exploit a market inefficiency that only exists for a couple of weeks and then it’s gone. How is it that a guy at home, with retail level information flow and a retail brokerage, is consistently beating the market at home competing against teams of hedge funds that have guys working 70 hours a week on a few names and industries? I think it’s luck or it’s simply not happening (and they’re just generating their cash from their YouTube channel and affiliate marketing)

Can people post their actual deal metrics for properties they own today? Purchase price and purchase year, estimate of current market price, gross rent, last 2-3 years of rent increase, NOI, and levered FCF after P&I. I just want to see real numbers here. How much are people actually making?

Is it possible to actually generate attractive IRR without reliance of property price capital appreciation? Similar to other markets, is it still possible to find real inefficiencies and geographic areas that will be going up in price? Nashville is a good example. We all know it's growing and it's been great. But don't the prices now reflect this? And when prices were lower, was there not a large uncertainty as to how big Nashville would get and how fast it would grow? So therefore if you bought you still had a level of speculation (or luck) and it just happened to work out. How many other areas were there that had high growth projections and ended up not working out?

Then there’s the current market environment. Are prices high? If so, would it be smart to wait and buy lower? Interest rates going up. I posted something like last year on this, and I was surprised how much people were not aware of or were not concerned with this fact.

Apologize for the information and question overload but this is something I seriously struggle to understand. 

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Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
7y

Yes, paying retail and/or not adding value is the hard way to make a profit in real estate in many markets.  Based on your interests and your W-2, I'd recommend investing with others who have full time staff dedicated to deal flow and are adding value (i.e. invest in syndications).

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Agent · Garden City, NY · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Troy Hebert

    You're kind of looking at the deals wrong. Nobody talks about cap rates except for commercial retail property and 5+ unit residential.

    For 1-4 family the calculations and analysis are based on cash on cash return. 

    Only you can set your goals. Targets for a new person versus a person with a portfolio are different.

    A brand new person might be happy to generate $300 per unit each money after the reserves (maintenance, capex, property mgmt). While a seasoned person will want much higher returns for their money.

    Essentially, if you are already generating 6%-8% returns on your money, you would be looking to do that or better to consider a property worth it. Unless, of course, you're moving money into a different property because for tax purposes like you can no longer take depreciation, but that's several years down the road...

    A the end of the day, you set your criteria for what you're looking to do. If the property doesn't match that, then you move to the next prospect. If you're holding property 10-20 years, waiting for minor market adjustments doesn't really work. Stocks are more liquid than real estate. In that market you can wait a day for the right signal. For real estate, everything is long term thinking. If it matches your criteria now with high valuations, you make the decision based on what you have for your goals. If the values are too high to cash flow, you move on to the next prospect. Waiting for valuations to pull back also means you're waiting for interest rates to climb.

  • Dave FosterBusiness Member
    Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    @Troy Hebert, I don't think your analysis is wrong for the properties you're looking at.  I lived in Stamford for a few years and that's a tough area to generate passive cash flow with not a lot of war chest.  An area like Bridgeport or Norwalk, Danbury or even New Haven can be much more attractive because of entry point.  But at that point the type,  required effort and looming unknowns can turn it quickly into anything but a cash flowing passive instrument.  Your education has also prepared you to analyze cycles and this point in the market is not an easy entry for passive investors not willing to be a small part of a much larger endeavor.

    In your case I'd be looking to real estate more as a tax hedge that will build substantial cash flow over time while delivering substantial depreciation and tax benefits from day one.  For you the key is truly out of sight out of mind so it doesn't distract you from your primary rev source.   So many folks are looking to build their income using real estate.  You've already got substantial income and the next step is creating the vehicle to protect that income and over time increase it organically - a self driving car if you will.  

    You might benefit more from looking at the experiences and investing habits of high function professionals like medical professionals, professional athletes and successful business folk in other time demanding fields.  Their priorities, focus, and models of investing  might match up better with you.

    I loved this article today (yeah it's click bait and fluffy as all get out but it demonstrates for me the true power of real estate investing over the years) -   https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/kushner-paid-no-federal-income-tax-for-years-documents-suggest/ar-BBOkaOq?li=BBnb7Kz

    The 1031 Investor5137 Reviews
  • Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Troy Hebert

    All very VALID questions/ concerns that you pose.

    I will start by saying that RE as an investment has created the most amount of wealth out of any asset class. That means something.

    I have invested in multiple asset classes, and nothing has matched the consistency and return that I have had from RE investing. Not even close.

    To answer just a few of your questions

    "Market falls 15-20% and that property trades for $200k going forward, that's $25k in unrealized capital loss, or roughly 5 years of FCF. At that point, why wouldn't you just buy a REIT? Diversified and 7-9% dividend yield with actually no direct active management."

    Market's falling 15-20% is a BIG fall. A REIT on the other hand can fall substantially faster than your physical property. If you are in it for the long term (which you should be), then market fluctuations should not bother you. If my property prices fall 20% I quite literally don't care. They are still being rented. If they go back up 20% great, if not, the rent will still keep coming in. It's unlikely that over the course of 10 years, the property won't go back up above its 20% drop.

    I don't bank on appreciation either. I look at cash flow. Appreciation is a nice thing to have, but I never bank on it. 

    The IRRs that I'm running on what would be considered a hot market are coming in at 15-18% with a 20% downpayment, 80% leverage and a 45% expense ratio. I don't quite know where you can get that sort of return in a passive investment. 

    With your high level of income, it would be a shame to not invest your money in appreciating, cash generating assets. For me personally, RE has been an unrivaled investment class. 

    I'm in the Nashville mkt so if you have any questions about it and want to look at property down here please let me know. 

    I suggest you give RE a shot! 

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    Thank you all for the thoughts.

    I agree, I think it makes sense for me to jump in and just learn and find out.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    Yes, paying retail and/or not adding value is the hard way to make a profit in real estate in many markets.  Based on your interests and your W-2, I'd recommend investing with others who have full time staff dedicated to deal flow and are adding value (i.e. invest in syndications).

  • Real Estate Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2016 · 922 posts · 533 votes
    7y

    @Troy Hebert

    Hi Troy, cool on your work experience.  I'm not from your area of work, but I will say Bridgeport was an area I would run from, with regards to investing.  I have only been there once but it really didn't impress me, at all.  I'd put no money there, and that's without even running numbers.

    The only other things of value that I can possibly add are:

    • It's hard for me to wrap my head around how much you're making per year but I second the advice to learn more about high earning professional investment options/strategies while you are doing that
    • I'm not in a place to suggest what to do for you with your time, but I would suggest that you keep an open mind with regards to not ruling out a more 'active' use of your time when it comes to real estate or some other more entrepreneurial gig.  Finance is great but if it's just money moving around, you're not connecting yourself to the 'real' economy.
    • Cash rules and your w-2 is well paying.  Again I can't speak to how much intrinsic satisfaction you get from your work, however - building something from scratch, or re-vamping something real and tangible that has a big impact on a community I'd think might provide a more meaningful day to day.
    • On the pure financial, per above - let's say as an example you could create 200k-250k worth of net worth (less liquid, sure) per year - producing 30k/year income at year 2.  Would you consider leaving work to execute that?  As others have mentioned, I'm not sure the market in RE will support that however if you're looking and ready, I think that's achievable your reasonably near term future.
  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 408 posts · 209 votes
    7y

    @Troy Hebert your post resonates strong with me! And your concerns are primarily what has kept me out of RE for these last few years as I've learned more and more about it. (I'm actually about to go full throttle into RE, but that's for another time.)

    Why should I invest in an illiquid, risky asset when I can get better returns in the stock market? And to get the type of returns that make it worth it, I'd need to pour hours and hours into it - at that rate, I can get another job which could pay as much as a return on a small investment property.

    If you want to get into RE, the way I see it, you have two options. The first is easier, if you're trusting of other people. Partner with others who will do the active management (including rehab, mgt, maybe even deal sourcing). This can be through any of the million syndicators out there or a friend/business associate who you trust that is involved or wants to get into it.

    The other option is to go searching yourself. You have to commit to looking at deals until you find one that suits you. Literally, you cannot stop until you actually find something. Because otherwise you may spend months looking at dozens if not hundreds of deals which are not good enough for you - only to quit. And then you wasted all that time. If you commit and push through until you close on something, retroactively all that time "wasted" becomes part of the process, which it is. Ask any seasoned investor and they will tell you that finding a good deal is only a matter of pushing through until you find one.

    The high IRRs you hear about are partially due to capital appreciation, but more directly, usually a function of improved property performance. If I can improve the NOI, my IRR can go up significantly. Now that my property is worth more because it is shooting off more income (on larger multi-family and commercial, value is strongly related to NOI - hence, you can significantly effect capital appreciation with minimal broad market influence), I can further raise the IRR by cashing out a refi or selling for nice profit. But again, you either need to commit to scouring the planet until you find something or partner with someone/company that's already doing this.

    As far as market timing goes, just be conservative when you underwrite your deals. If you project that in a downturn, your expenses can withstand a drop in rent, so you're protected. One thing that was not mentioned was that if you end up in a larger property with a commercial mortgage, they're typically 5-10 year loans with 20-30 year amortizations. If your property loses value when your loan comes due, you may have a significant challenge refinancing, unless you have a ton of equity that you (temporarily) lose.

    Best of luck and keep us posted on your decision and journey!

  • Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    I think the big mistake is thinking that you have to be a single family home OWNER and rent out your properties. You can be a part of a syndication. You put some money in the deal and others do the work on larger multi family properties.

    You can find out who the people are who flip properties in your area and lend at 10% and a couple of points to them. That is usually short term.

    You can lend to people who want to hold properties for long term. You could lend for 15 or 25 or 30 year terms. If the people you are lending to are investors you can put a balloon payment after 3 years, 5 years, whatever you two decide.

    How about buying notes that are non-performing in your area? Buy the notes, get them performing or foreclose and sell or even owner finance for long term passive income.

    I guess what I am saying is that there is not just one way to be in real estate.

  • Investor · United States · Member since 2015 · 415 posts · 487 votes
    7y

    Nice to see you are running the IRR and factoring in all three potential profit sources (cash flow, principle pay down, and appreciation). Focusing on maximizing IRR instead of other metrics has heavily influenced my priorities.

    To answer your main question directly, I am able to get 10-15% IRR on standard 25% down purchases, and 50-70% IRR on owner-occupied 5% down purchases (where I have to move into one of the units). The return is much higher on these since the profit is high in relation to the small down payment. Those numbers are assuming 2% appreciation. For example, a duplex that cost $188,000 that I moved into required just $9500 down (and I had the seller pay closing costs). I clear about $7000/year in cash flow from it after all expenses, giving it a very high IRR. A larger down payment brings the IRR back down out of the stratosphere, but still above 10% (still assuming 2% appreciation).

    If you're bringing in $300k/year on a W-2, I would stick to that and not bothering learning the labor intensive sides of real estate. Sure, you can make more money in real estate in the more boots on the ground fashion, but it sounds like you'd be much better off looking for truly passive forms of investing as recommended above. Find a good syndicator and let them take their cut for having the expertise to manage all the hassle.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    This has been very helpful.

    My personal key takeaways are that I should look into syndicates and leave it to the professionals in the space and just pay some carry.

    As a flip side, I have an 80 unit portfolio of properties that came to me from my network on Monday afternoon. It’s interesting, couple that is retiring in a rural area that basically bought up a large % of the town. Waiting for more data (I asked for unit by unit P&Ls). Too big for me to buy, but maybe I can sell it as a platform or something if anyone’s interested.

    Will post in the appropriate spot, but figured I’d mention it here and say that from what I’ve gathered from above, you need these types of proprietary deals where you can get creative and thoughtful to generate the returns. The retail, conventional, highly online marketed method of buying a multi-family that just throws off a ton of cash and pays down your mortgage seems fully exploited.

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