My Case for C and D Properties!

My Case for C and D Properties!

Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes

I know not everyone is against C and D properties but I have a few cases for them as a viable asset to invest in.

1. Cheaper price point to get started in real estate (cheaper is not as worse)

2. It is less affected by down economies and recessions ( the lower middle class to lower class usually work in jobs that don't fail during hard times).

3. When these people feel comfortable where they are, they are less likely to want to move ( they do not like change as much as other classes).

4. People in these communities want the same things that people in other communities want safe, affordable, and nice living space. 

( If you can provide that slightly or a lot better than other people in the community than you can have an endless supply of tenants).

5. You can make a great change in particular areas of a city, state, or town and uplift the community for good while making money. (Double whammy)

What are your thoughts?

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
6y

while those are generally good thoughts.. reality is far different in my experience owning hundreds of them.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Brent Crosby:

    @Quentin Mitchell not sure I buy #2. Lots of these types of tenants work in the construction industry in my area. During the last recession many were out of work for quite some time.

    There are exceptions but the lower level jobs are usually safer in downturns because they don't have the same affect on the bottom line as the higher paying jobs.

  • Real Estate Agent · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2019 · 257 posts · 105 votes
    6y

    @Quentin Mitchell your #2 is very flawed. I live in Miami most of the people in Miami work service jobs most of the people in Miami make under $20 an hour and I guarantee you that when the economy turns down the waiters the waitresses the cleaning ladies the bartenders the massage therapist the yoga teachers all suffer and a lot of them lose their housing

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Wendy Lavana:

    @Quentin Mitchell

    I own several class C multi families in Ft Lauderdale Fl. Best investments I ever made. Sometimes hard to manage, but over the course of 5 years I’ve leaned to ignore lots of the tenant nonsense and get important things done.

    On point #5. I went in thinking I could help make the neighborhood better by making my properties better and over the years I’ve become disillusioned. You can only help people who will help themselves. My tenants in class C aren’t interested in caring for new improvements, they’ll most likely take something new and improved and destroy it. I’ve learned that my Class C units simply need to be livable, understanding this has made managing and maintaining them a lot easier and cheaper. Most of my tenants receive government assistance and would be happy to find a reason to sue me, even when they like me. I am diligent about repairs and respect my tenants and trust me they will work to find reasons to fault you, even make things up. Once you accept these facts, get yourself a few reliable handyman who are willing to work with your tenants and ignore the verbal abuse that you’ll soon realize has nothing to do with you personally, you’ll realize you have cash flowing properties that like every other class of properties have problems. I have class A properties that are less problematic but cash flow lots less. And as far as tenants go, well class A can come with its own interesting personalities. Personally I didn’t get into rentals because I assumed they would be “passive income,” I knew they would come with some work. It can get bad sometimes but it’s always better than working 9-5 for someone else. I couldn’t afford to purchase a bunch of class A rentals when I got in, it didn’t make sense. I think getting in at class C level made me tougher, thicken my skin a bit. They’ve also appreciated a lot more than class AIf I could purchase more class C right now, I would. Housing organizations call me everyday to see if I have any available units. Fully booked and looking for new rentals, but unfortunately everything is priced too high.

    Fantastic I myself am a fan of C's because of then entry price and honestly the experience they provide. In regards to #5 I was saying it's a plus not the main objective.  You are right if people don't want to be helped you can't, but If you can make money and help those that do want help it's icing on the cake.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kenneth Mooney:

    @Quentin Mitchell the LARGE majority of investments I do and see people do are Class C properties. Would highly recommend them for a variety of reasons but mainly that you can make good money if you know what you’re doing.

    However, if you’re having to worry about “an endless supply of tenants” you should evaluate your market against others.

    Agreed 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jim Jaworowicz:

    I have 9 doors in C/C- neighborhoods.  Most are smaller 2 BR units.  They cost less to purchase (2 BR) and repair (smaller sq. ft).  There are generally 2 people living in them so there is less wear and tear.  I update them when I buy and in between tenants and keep them in good repair when a tenant is in them.  I am able to charge top dollar rents and require a 600+ fico score with no evictions in their past.  I have little problem filling the units and average about an 11 - 14% return after all expenses (including Cap Ex and financing).  I use a property Mgr so I can concentrating on Investing and my other job.  It works for me.  The bottom line - you can invest at any grade level with the proper procedures/safeguards in place.

     I agree Jim the local market and a person's procedures make a huge difference in the outcomes.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kata Walters:

    @Quentin Mitchell I have some properties in C neighborhoods and I just say I get a great satisfaction from improving these properties and creating better homes and rental options for the price point . I think a mix of B and C is good for diversity but so far I haven’t had any problems in C areas and will continue to invest in these neighborhoods and do my part to provide clean safe housing for all budgets .

    I feel the same way and the point was simply do what your comfortable doing and have a skill set for it and success should follow.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Michael Ealy:

    Guys and gals,

    I think we have to clarify what we mean by C & D areas. Also, people are forgetting there are "F" areas too.

    I started investing in F areas.

    Fs - are the war zones: it's where every other house is boarded up. Fs are where 90% of violent crimes in a city happen. Fs are hard to manage and there's constant headaches and problems. And yes, your life can be at stake as in these areas, you can get shot or stabbed. No newbie investor should start with Fs. I did because I didn't know any better. I made money with it by being hands on and as @Jay Hinrichs correctly pointed out, you need scale - which I did because I started owning a 28-unit building in an F area and luckily for me, the area gentrified and I sold it for a $200,000 profit. 

    Cs are great cashflow maker. My C tenants actually call before the due date and inform me they are going to be late with rent. Some of them are on section 8 and some aren't. Cs appreciate in value and lately, in Cincinnati, the rents in C areas have been increasing like crazy.

    To prepare for the coming recession (or market correction), it's always good to have properties in C areas. Cs made me a lot of money specially during the Great Recession. Out of the 1,000 apartment units I own, I would say 70% of them are Cs and 50% of my tenants are on section 8.

    To succeed with Ds, you need to have them on government or non profit housing program or subsidy to minimize rent collection problems . A wise investor once said that D stands for Drama and Depreciation. I agree 100%. Ds are a step above Fs and there is a boarded up house every other block so it's not as bad as Fs. Ds, generally don't appreciate. 

    To the OP who started this post: yes, you can make money with Cs and Ds. I literally made MILLIONS with them. But, you got to be hands on and you need scale. And knowing what I know now, don't even do Fs. Life is too short and there's more to life than money.

    No F's I would definitely stay away from and even low low level D"s but I agree you and think alot of money could be made in that class obviously you're proof. 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:

    @Jay Hinrichs I enjoy your posts!

    And you are sooo right. I would never call what I'lm doing right now passive. However, I do think (with well thought out business processes) that  I will be able to eventually (in the next 5 years) hire a w-2 property manager and be able to travel more extensively.

    What many people don't get about older assets is that @ $70/ft it would have cost 190k to build a 4 unit that I bought for 67 with 10k of diy renovation costs. No one (without subsidies) is going to do that on a low $0 value lot. And the thing is, these buildings are built WELL. They have oak hardwood floors, 6" mop boards with pretty base cap, mahogany doors, 11 windows in each one bedroom apartment most of which are still in decent shape-- that old wood is HARD-- if the windows haven't been painted, we pull the stops, re-rope the windows and then use screws to replace the stops and call it a day. The old moncreif gravity furnaces have no moving parts, they'll probably last another 75 years.

    The funny thing is I bought for cash flow, not expecting any appreciation but they have apprreciated anyway (about 25% in the last 3 years). Someone is building a snazzy new building with apartments over retail down the street because we are in one of those opportunity zones and they got the city to force the shutdown of the homeless tent city so perhaps things will get better even in the hood.

    I guess am one of the weirdos that likes managing these units. These tenants are NOT whiners.

    I agree you buy for cash flow not appreciation if it happens then that the cherry on top. And like you my properties have appreciated in just one year. So it can be done.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:
    Originally posted by @Anthony Rosa:

    Think about it. You buy a D/F and maybe even C/D borderline  class prooerty for 55K and rent it for $550-$600/month. Why cant the tenant buy the place with 3K down and finance for 30 years for a couple hundred a month??  Well, for whatever reason they have crap credit, they probably owe everyone money, they have a poor work history, unskilled, low wage earner and behind on child support. 

    What makes you think paying you rent is their priority?  They will buy the latest IPhone and the best sneakers before giving you a dime!

    Also, the property is probably old and with that comes lots of expensive repairs not including the repairs needed due to abuse and neglect from the tenant.

    This is just not universally (or even mostly) true. Good character is not a function of income or credit score. There are plenty poor people of excellent character-- but they're more likely to be renting from me than you because they will know when they meet you that you do not respect them.

    Could not have said it any better people can sense if youre not genuine and will give you more problems. 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jermaine Chad Ingram:

    @Quentin Mitchell your #2 is very flawed. I live in Miami most of the people in Miami work service jobs most of the people in Miami make under $20 an hour and I guarantee you that when the economy turns down the waiters the waitresses the cleaning ladies the bartenders the massage therapist the yoga teachers all suffer and a lot of them lose their housing

    Every market is different I never said it didn't happen, and that it is less likely to happen with the lower service jobs in most parts of the country. 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
  • Real Estate Agent · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2019 · 257 posts · 105 votes
    6y

    @Quentin Mitchell What evidence is there that lower and middle income people don’t lose their jobs at the same rate as everybody else or even higher rates as everybody else during the downturn. why would you think that that’s less likely to happen.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Robert Collins:

    @Ran L.

    So do investors not hold the same standard with class c & d tenants like the 3x income for rent , no previous eviction, ect ect ? 

    You definitely should follow the same formula there are people who fit it. Also look into some government programs and subsidies as potential renters.

  • Rental Property Investor · Greenville County SC / Atlanta, GA · Member since 2017 · 403 posts · 120 votes
    6y

    @Kai Van Leuven

    This is the reason I don’t won’t to deal with the d/f areas , everyone I know say they don’t want to ever go back!

  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2019 · 48 posts · 121 votes
    6y

    @Quentin Mitchell Can I ask what % you use for vacancy & maintenance with these lower class properties?

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 11 votes
    6y

    So once they can't afford the 400 dollar rent where are going then? Heading for eviction. Try B rated areas and I agree with you, because at least they can downgrade. C and D CANNOT down grade. So after your house next stop is homeless. 

  • Member since 2019 · 295 posts · 159 votes
    6y

    @Quentin Mitchell. I can tell you this I have a class in an A property that rents for 1100-1200 a month and I can’t keep tenants from calling me it stays occupied. I have another C class and it rents for 905 with a sec 8 tenant purchase price for the A 145k it does appreciate. Purchase price for C class 28,500$ and 10k in fixing it up so all in at 38,500$ so to me a C class is a better option for me it’s a much quicker process and cheaper as well and it cash flows better but I buy my properties in cash so i can acquire more in a C area for honestly a little less return. C areas are what I like eventually I’ll take a Heloc out when I reach my number of C classes and buy more C classes the next block over has C as well but for some reasons those houses rent for 1000$ don’t know why just do. Same sq ft and everything but who am I to question.

  • Rental Property Investor · Canton, OH · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    I think it would be interesting (in a seperate post) to poll people on what % of their portfolio consists of A, B, C, D neighborhoods.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Robert Collins:

    @Kai Van Leuven

    This is the reason I don’t won’t to deal with the d/f areas , everyone I know say they don’t want to ever go back!

    Yes I would say mainly C's or a D that is could possibly function as a C or is transitioning to a C

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Diana Jing:

    @Quentin Mitchell Can I ask what % you use for vacancy & maintenance with these lower class properties?

    9% for vacancy and Maintenance. 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jermell Shavers:

    @Quentin Mitchell. I can tell you this I have a class in an A property that rents for 1100-1200 a month and I can’t keep tenants from calling me it stays occupied. I have another C class and it rents for 905 with a sec 8 tenant purchase price for the A 145k it does appreciate. Purchase price for C class 28,500$ and 10k in fixing it up so all in at 38,500$ so to me a C class is a better option for me it’s a much quicker process and cheaper as well and it cash flows better but I buy my properties in cash so i can acquire more in a C area for honestly a little less return. C areas are what I like eventually I’ll take a Heloc out when I reach my number of C classes and buy more C classes the next block over has C as well but for some reasons those houses rent for 1000$ don’t know why just do. Same sq ft and everything but who am I to question.

    Good stuff

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I think it would be interesting (in a seperate post) to poll people on what % of their portfolio consists of A, B, C, D neighborhoods.

     You should start it lol

  • Rental Property Investor · Canton, OH · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Quentin Mitchell

    I may post that question :)

    I don't have an opinion on this thread overall since I'm a total newbie, but I am facinated by all the people who are 100% against C/D neighborhoods. I completely understand avoiding D neighborhoods, but C's?...not sure yet. I mean just Google "bigger pockets neighborhoods," or "bigger pockets C neighborhoods," etc. There are podcasts, and blogs, and posts out the wazoo from people who have succeeded in these neighborhoods long-term. Heck, I believe even Gary Keller said something to the effect of "the best deals are on the lower end of the middle class neighborhoods or the higher end of the lower class neighborhoods."

    Not disagreeing with anyone here (especially those with decades of experiennce), again just facinated the comments 😄

  • overseas · Member since 2019 · 31 posts · 8 votes
    6y

    @Dennis M. Sorry but you had me actually laughing out loud! But pleased to hear you commit to personal positive affirmations to support your work. Somebody’s got to do it right!?🤣

  • Investor · Colonial Heights, VA · Member since 2014 · 115 posts · 68 votes
    6y

    I've had good luck in C class going on 6 years now. No evictions. I do nearly all of my own repairs and maintenance because I like it. Beats the hell out of going to the W2 every day. My tenants stay quite a while because I take really good care of these homes.

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