Long term viability of flipping and wholesaling

Long term viability of flipping and wholesaling

Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 447 posts · 81 votes

Hey y'all,
I have been spending alot of time lurking on here, listened to the podcast, and I am now listening to the audio from the BP Summit. I have also read alot of J Scott's 123flip.com and I just ordered Marty Boardman's book. I also plan to start attending investor club meetings and networking events soon. However, I just have a nagging question I need answered: Are flipping and wholesaling viable long term strategies in any market? Or are there periods in market cycles where this work could evaporate for 2-3 years? I can understand a few months slow here and there... but, for example, is this stuff just really hot right now because of the cycle we are currently in...

Maybe I am just being glass half empty but I would love to know if a competent, smart, hard worker with integrity can make money doing this stuff in all market cycles... Any insight from people who have been doing this for a while would be appreciated!

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Chris ClothierBusiness Member
Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
13y

Hey Sean -

That is a natural first question to have so I don't believe you are over-thinking, just make sure you don't let your questions become self doubt. There are always going to be investors who find success because of the timing of the market who have difficulty sustaining a long-term business. But, over-all, real estate investing is strong in any economic cycle. There will always be room for smart, hungry, dedicated professionals to invest whether they are fixing run-down homes for resale, locating homes and wholesaling them to other investors or simply providing some form of those services. The cycle does not necessarily dictate IF these services will continue, it DOES affect who will be the most effective and successful.

Keep moving along the path you've laid out. Surround yourself with great educational material and look for good advice from your local investors who are finding success.

Best of luck - Chris

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  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Hey Sean -

    That is a natural first question to have so I don't believe you are over-thinking, just make sure you don't let your questions become self doubt. There are always going to be investors who find success because of the timing of the market who have difficulty sustaining a long-term business. But, over-all, real estate investing is strong in any economic cycle. There will always be room for smart, hungry, dedicated professionals to invest whether they are fixing run-down homes for resale, locating homes and wholesaling them to other investors or simply providing some form of those services. The cycle does not necessarily dictate IF these services will continue, it DOES affect who will be the most effective and successful.

    Keep moving along the path you've laid out. Surround yourself with great educational material and look for good advice from your local investors who are finding success.

    Best of luck - Chris

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y

    Agreed with Chris...

    I'll add that, as the market changes, you need to be able to adapt as well. For example, I spent about 4 years just doing REOs. I was doing lots of deals, and never had to wonder where the next deal was coming from. In 2012, the REO market started to dry up in my area and I needed to figure out how to do other types of acquisition. It took a while (and a few months of no deals), but we adapted. I know plenty of other investors who were focused on REOs who didn't adapt and who are frustrated that they haven't been able to find a good deal in the past year.

    But, if you're willing to zig and zag as the market dictates -- not just from an acquisition standpoint but also from a marketing standpoint, an exit strategy standpoint, etc. -- I believe long-term viability is a given.

  • Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 447 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    Thanks for the responses! Everything seems very learnable to me although the fear is that I commit time to learning how to do this then there are just no deals. I suppose the key question is, are there always motivated sellers. And I would have to guess the answer is yes. You just need to know how to find them. Is this a correct assumption? Thanks for the handholding fellas!

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Fort Worth , TX · Member since 2012 · 211 posts · 152 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Sean Brennan:
    I suppose the key question is, are there always motivated sellers

    The short answer is yes.

    There will always be:
    Properties with Delinquent Taxes
    Estate or Inheritance issues
    Unwanted Rentals
    Properties in need of Repair
    Desirable houses where owner needs to move quickly (subject 2)
    REOs

    etc.

  • Real Estate Investor · Niagara Falls, NY · Member since 2012 · 12 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    Sean,

    I'd say you are correct in that there are always motivated sellers out there. No matter what the cycle is at, there are always people who desperately need to relocate and sell fast, inherited properties that the family doesn't have time to deal with, divorces where both parties just want to erase the memory of the home they shared, people who want to liquidate a property to use that cash for something else, or any of the other possibilities that life throws at people. I think the key is stay positive, stay dedicated, and constantly educate yourself to stay ahead of the curve. Maintain a solid integrity and continue driving forward and you will be successful. Go get'em!

  • Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 447 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    Thanks guys for the responses. This forum is such a great resource. I look forward to the day when I can contribute more and ask less questions :)

  • Real Estate Professional · Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2010 · 608 posts · 163 votes
    13y

    Great responses. From a personal view point it is quite simple for me in my market. On each side of the spectrum you have easy to buy/hard to sale and hard to buy/easy to sell and everything in between. In my market a good professional rehab within the right price points will sell in a week or less. Actually average rehabs are selling in a week. I read a post yesterday from a gentleman I think from the northern suburbs of Seattle that said days on market for him is 9 months right now. It is harder to buy because REO and short sales are flush with buyers and less available. Marketing to distressed is working, but overall less of a pool of inventory available makes it harder to buy. For me I am making calculated risk decisions to try one rehab at a time that is below below my margin criteria while hopefully still getting deals with good margin. I am ok to make less money on a few because I think my risk is lower. And to answer your question, I think rehabbing/wholesaling is sustainable solely based on the fact it has been going on for decades,

  • Rehabber · Alexandria, VA · Member since 2011 · 446 posts · 171 votes
    13y

    Flipping and wholesaling are sustainable but J Scott and others already harped on the importance of adaptability and knowing your local market.

    Effective flipping formulas will change as the market changes. Marketing effectiveness will also change. Key is adapting and being able to identify what works and what doesn't.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Sean Brennan:
    I would love to know if a competent, smart, hard worker with integrity can make money doing this stuff in all market cycles...

    Of course. And if you can add cash to that list of qualities, your odds are quite good.

  • Brian BurkePro Member
    Investor · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    13y

    Sean, it is absolutely sustainable. I've been flipping for over 20 years. You can make money in an up market, a down market, or a level market.

    That said, this does NOT mean that you can just keep doing the same thing year after year. As @J Scott correctly pointed out, you have to be flexible. As the market changes, you might have to change how you flip, where you flip, and how you source your deals.

    The trick is staying ahead of the curve. You have to follow the news, watch the stats, and pay attention to the market. The best surfers read the ocean, and see a great wave before it even fully develops. The bad surfers wait until the killer wave wipes them off their board. So goes real estate...

  • Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 447 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    Thanks again everyone. Now I don't feel too bad that I spent the majority of the past few days learning about this stuff :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 447 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    So, I've continued to think about and study this topic and I found this article by Steve Cook that was very interesting: http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2013/01/30/cloudy-understatement/

    It seems to me the two biggest risks to a long term flipping business are a lack of deals or a downturn in the market.

    @Brandon Turner suggested that you should only get into flip properties that can cashflow. This protects you if there is a downturn in prices and is a very smart risk management strategy.

    The other issue is lack of deals. Steve's article about the drying up of REO deals was really interesting. It seems to me if you are trying to enter this business for the long haul you cannot rely on auctions and REO properties. There will be times when there are plenty (past few years) but when the market improves there will be more competition and less foreclosures which equals thin profits.

    To me, the solution to this problem is direct marketing. If you have deals coming in due to your own marketing campaigns you don't have to compete at auction and for REO properties.

    Hmmmm. What do you guys think?

  • Rehabber · Alexandria, VA · Member since 2011 · 446 posts · 171 votes
    13y

    Sean Brennan Why do you think people consider real estate a people business? It's all about connecting with people in order to find and be able to do deals - network with Realtors, portfolio managers, property managers, inspectors, appraisers, contractors, lawyers, accountants, etc. etc.

    And, most importantly, connecting with sellers is key to establishing a sustainable real estate company sheltered from the inevitable market downturns.

    Your ability to connect is directly representative of your ability to effectively market yourself and your business to these lead generating avenues.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Sean Brennan, Your concerns are much of the basis for my advice for new investors to begin with a good basic understanding of RE rather than attempt to be so niche oriented or concentrate in one area, like wholesale transactions.

    I've been around a long time from the early 70's. What others have mentioned are true, well and good. What I call "life events", will always ensure a basic inventory within the constraints of population of an area. In an area of 10,000, so many will die, divorce, loose a job or be required to move. If your market has a population of say 500,000, obviously there will be more life events that influences that market.

    Economic cycles effect RE markets, availability of money and financing, material costs, labor costs to some extent play on the opportunities that you may have.

    RE is like any other service or manufactirung business process, the population to be served drives supply and demand. Don't forget regulatory changes, like EPA, title hold periods, ordinaces and standards.

    The aspect not mentioned yet is competition in the market.

    Any business that has a lower cost of entry and profit potential will have, usually, a high level of competition.

    The reason wholesale deals, just obtaining a contract and assigning to another real buyer is so popular is that there is a very low cost of entry. Some knowledge and a thousand dollars and you can be in business. I'm sure, that in my area there must be at least 500 people willing to buy a house, add lipstick and sell it. A running joke here is that everyone is related to a Realtor.

    They also say 90% of the business is done by 10% of the Realtors (same applies to the players). You might think that just comes from working harder longer, but not so much as smarter.

    I'm afraid this is getting way to long, but it will tie together....

    You must set up your business that is appropriate for your skills, financing capacity, the population served, the market for your product and be able to compete against the alternative opportunities your customer base may have.

    The question is not "is wholesaling a good sustainable business" but can it be sustaining in light of those aspects just mentioned?

    How can you command a market share that will prove to be most profitable under your operating constraints in your given market?

    When "investors" begin looking at thier business from a business point of view instead of a RE specialty they will be more successful. If you owned a bakery, would you just make doughnuts? I wouldn't, I'd try to build a bakery business that included a wide varity of products thereby increasing my customer base, it increases the profit potential from several product lines.

    You're asking will selling doughnuts always be sustainable? Yes, there will always be people eating doughnuts. When the economy allows, demand may increase, sales will be up, you eat well. If other doughnut shops open in your area, the cost of grease goes up, a factory may close, disposable income drops, you may be out of business. If you had expanded, had a wide range of products, deversified so that economic influences like the cost of grease had little effect on your entire inventory, offered wedding cakes, sweet rolls and long johns you may still be in business.

    There is a balance between specialization and diversification, that's where you need to be. If you only serve landlords, you're relying on thier ability to continue buying, thier ability to rent at a profitable rate, hoping rental demand will always be up and that regulatory influences will not interfere with thier operations or yours.

    Will wholesaling flips always be sustainable? Depends on your view of sustainable, if that means a constant, reliable inventory with willing and able buyers that has a constant growth long term....perhaps, but I doubt it will be as or more profitable in and of itself due to market demands and competition. You probably won't make a decent living consistantly for ten years with constant growth unless you have limited competition. How likely is that?

    I seriously doubt, if the truth be told, that you will find one investor here that only does wholesale deals and has had much over a middle income living wage on a monthly average for a ten year period. Most are probably in the boom and it won't last. J. Scott does WH deals, rehabs and flips, he is also an RE agent, he can and will do retail deals I'm sure, I doubt he would turn down a listing from a contractor on new construction and with his poker money, he may even do some financing, I don't know about that.

    Asking if WHing will be sustainable long term is like asking, will my doughnut shop be a good long term business? Too many variables, I think the deck is stacked against you with such specialization long term.

    My quarter's worth, I suggest having a broader knowledge so that you have the flexibility to operate with any opportunity, even at that, RE is mostly a feast and famine business, the more you can do the better you will eat!

  • Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 447 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    Glenn Espinosa I think you are correct. The more connected you are the more entrenched your business will become.

    Bill Gulley Thanks for the thoughtful response. I may need to read it a few more times to fully digest it but to summarize, are you saying that I need to be open minded, flexible, and adaptable to survive long term in this business?

  • Brandon TurnerPro Member
    Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Hey Sean Brennan - we've been spoiled the past few years with REOs everywhere. It's still like that in my area, but we always lag about a year from the rest of the country (which is nice, cause I can see the wave ahead of time.)

    But before the past 5 years, people still flipped houses, quite a bit. Like everyone else said, it just was a different strategy then.

    I agree- I think the solution is marketing. Whether it's direct mail, signs on your vehicle, a big "We Buy Houses" billboard, or whatever - marketing is what keeps your funnel full. And in flipping, you need to have that.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    LOL, guess I could have said that, yes, and that can only happen with a broader approach in understanding the big picture, the whole residential industry in your market, not one segment. :)

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