Investing in Land - Tax Delinquency List

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Investing in Land - Tax Delinquency List

David Flores
Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes

Hello BP World,

Just starting a forum to track my story about using a strategy i learned about from @Seth Williams. 

Pretty much it is about using public information from county's around the US to gain access to the tax delinquency lists that County's provide. Using this information I will be contacting individuals with liens on their home that are NOT foreclosed yet, but instead using the foreclosure as leverage to buy the land cheap (5-10% of market value) from an individual. This strategy helps you (the investor, by getting land cheap) and it helps the owner of the land by geting out of a tax lien, protecting their credit, and they can make a few bucks in the process. 

Right now I am working on Upstate NY leads, I currently have 136 leads that I will be sending out extremely personal mail too stand out. I am just waiting on return labels right now. But the way Seth Williams mentioned doing this was using a personalized post card. I think I want to go in a slightly different route to see how it works. Seth's ratio's were about a 5-10% response rate with a 1-.5% close rate I believe. I want to compare this to the strategy I will be using. My strategy will be to send extremely personal letters, with hand written envelops (just the shipping to address). I don't know about you guys but I have always opened a letter with a hand written address on it. This way, I know my mail will be opened by the individual. 

The letters I am sending are extremely honest. I am simply stating why I am contacting them (using their personal name and property address) and why it can benefit them and I. I am also sending them a personal business card (which is with my return labels shipment) so they can hold onto my details and call or email at their best convenience. 

I plan on sending all of my letters for my first 136 leads by December 15th. Waiting for the delivery of my package which should be here by the 8th. Then I want to hand write the shipping addresses. 

Anyway, if I do get a lead that is interested in my offer (5-10% of market value) I will try to sell at full value and keep updating this post. Ask any questions you may have and correct me if I am wrong anywhere Seth! 

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Brandy HorkeyPro Member
Investor · Orlando, Florida - FL · Member since 2017 · 37 posts · 18 votes
8y

@David Flores thanks for the update. I’m kinda excited for you!:-) 

I completely understand your thought on the personal touch you are approaching this with and on the point of the shipping addresses, do you have the addresses in a spreadsheet? Just a little food for thought here, I have received things in the mail before that were hand written and usually I will open them if they don’t stink of advertising but I also get mail sometimes that looks hand written but is actually a handwriting font that looks very realistic. Can’t begin to tell you how many car dealership sales I have opened lol. Anyway, if you have the addresses in a spreadsheet, what about printing them on good old white labels from your printer? Just from my point of view, no company trying to sell anything ever uses  those. In my head, white labels means that someone, most likely an individual, took the time to give the mail a professional touch but actually took the time to type out, print and adhere the label. If you have any proficiency with Excel and/or Word, you could have all of your envelopes addressed within an hour. 

Can’t wait to hear how this turns out for you!

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  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Seth Williams does agentpro24/7 only cover Arizona, California, Florida, Colorado, Nevada for the foreclosure lists? I live in the Northeast and was wondering if it had info for that region also. 

    If it does only have info for those states would you happen to know another lead generating site?

    0Reply
  • Seth WilliamsPro Member
    Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2012 · 583 posts · 353 votes
    8y

    @David Flores - AP247 has some tax delinquent data, but that's not really the most ideal use for the service. I only use when I'm doing individual property research and/or pulling more general lists of property owners (i.e. - I use several of the list filtering options EXCEPT for the tax distressed option, because I've found that particular item isn't reliable in all areas).

    When I need to get a delinquent tax list specifically, I always get it directly from the county. Working with some counties can definitely be more of a hassle, but the data is a lot more current and consistently reliable.

    Podcast Guest on Show #39
    2Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Seth Williams yeah I have some counties telling me you have to go to a location in their county and search for people individually. Others don't know what I am talking about, but for about half of them I have been getting the information (or at least the correct information on how to receive it). 

    I have 2 county lists right now I am working with, waiting on another in the mail. Some of the others are a little to expensive for me right now but I wrote down the information on how to get access to it for futures sake.

    Thanks Seth!

    1Reply
  • Brandy HorkeyPro Member
    Investor · Orlando, Florida - FL · Member since 2017 · 37 posts · 18 votes
    8y
    @David Flores please keep updating on your progress. I’ve been working on picking up properties through county auctions where I am but I want to also dip into this way of acquiring lands as I progress. Lots to learn before I start that route though. Thanks, Brandy
    0Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Brandy Horkey will do! This weekend I pretty much fixed all my letters by inserting the individuals names and the property i'm interested into each letter. My leads are up to 142 and to do all of these it took about 2 hours. Not that bad honestly. I know Seth uses click2mail, which I will try out also in the future and compare. Click2mail is extremely easy to use and great for large amounts (250+) of mail. i just wanted to make this round a little more personal so a lot of manual labor will have to be done. I think the most time consuming part will be writing the shipping addresses by hand. But when we are talking about big investments/pay offs, I find some elbow grease well worth it. We shall see the outcome and the response rates. Honestly I am hoping these response rates will range around 10-12%. 

    As I said previously I plan on sending all these pieces of mail by the 15th. 

    3Reply
  • Brandy HorkeyPro Member
    Investor · Orlando, Florida - FL · Member since 2017 · 37 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @David Flores thanks for the update. I’m kinda excited for you!:-) 

    I completely understand your thought on the personal touch you are approaching this with and on the point of the shipping addresses, do you have the addresses in a spreadsheet? Just a little food for thought here, I have received things in the mail before that were hand written and usually I will open them if they don’t stink of advertising but I also get mail sometimes that looks hand written but is actually a handwriting font that looks very realistic. Can’t begin to tell you how many car dealership sales I have opened lol. Anyway, if you have the addresses in a spreadsheet, what about printing them on good old white labels from your printer? Just from my point of view, no company trying to sell anything ever uses  those. In my head, white labels means that someone, most likely an individual, took the time to give the mail a professional touch but actually took the time to type out, print and adhere the label. If you have any proficiency with Excel and/or Word, you could have all of your envelopes addressed within an hour. 

    Can’t wait to hear how this turns out for you!

    3Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Brandy Horkey yeah that's a great option also, I actually was thinking about doing that in the future and comparing. I also want to use Seth's strategy with post cards using click2mail. I want to see which campaign i feel did the best, both efficiency wise and rate wise. I understand that out of pure luck or different wording one campaign can skew the data. But for example, say this hand written mail converts a response rate of 10-12% and the others only convert 5-8%. In my opinion, the little extra work and couple hours of labor is well worth it. But, this could also have 0 effect on anything, which it very well might. But just wanted to see how this route turns out. 

    Regarding excel, i'm extremely proficient in. I actually use it every day at my day job at Ernst and Young as a Financial Management Analyst. When it comes to this stuff excel is my best friend. I honestly don't think any of this would be possible without at least intermediate skills in excel. I am currently working on a mid right formula to automate the process of the letters, but because of the way Microsoft word documents transfer into excel and because a formula needs to be in its own cell it is very difficult to figure out. But if anyone has any suggestions that would be great!

    0Reply
  • Brandy HorkeyPro Member
    Investor · Orlando, Florida - FL · Member since 2017 · 37 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @David Flores I’m not sure about merging from Word to Excel but you should be able to Google Excel Mail Merge and get the info you need pretty fast.  I am more familiar with merging from Excel to Word. 

    0Reply
  • Lauren B.
    Asheville, NC · Member since 2017 · 170 posts · 242 votes
    8y
    I have been researching this a few months, and I’ve made my own list. Ive made some good contacts and had some interesting learning opportunities. The problem I have is understanding the psychology of the seller (in pretax sale foreclosure ).... They’re often in total denial. They think something will work out for them. They do nothing because they can’t or won’t deal with it. They think they have time to work out a plan. They think money will show up. I just don’t get why more people aren’t proactive about resolving it. Even when presented with a solution (a buyer!) Sometimes it’s complicated by factors such as ; - Multiple family members own ( inherit) it and can’t agree on who should pay taxes , what it should sell for, etc. then there may be probate issues and possible Medicaid claims. - people who can’t or won’t pay taxes often have other financial issues that result in judgements against the property. IRS, credit cards, car loans, ICC, small claims, unpaid criminal court costs that convert to judgements. - buyers who want to sell but can’t vacate before closing and don’t have the money to move. - owner is elderly and not of sound mind or incapacitated, possibly in a nursing home (more Medicaid claims) Some thoughts; Ideal leads would be if you could highlight which properties have already been probated. Ideal investor would make a cash offer with the ability to close quickly and has a lawyer on call for a quick title search. I’ve learned how to do my own preliminary title search work and it helps eliminate some leads before I contact them.
    2Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Seth Williams I plan on sending these letters out December 11th. Do you think the holiday season can affect the accuracy of the response rate? Also, in your opinion do you think I should avoid the holiday season in total and send out after the new year?

    I was thinking the holiday season may actual be beneficial because people spend a lot of money during this time and the thought of receiving some from a piece of land may entice them more into the deal.

    Let me know what you think. Thanks!

    0Reply
  • Glenn R.
    Cornelius, NC · Member since 2016 · 104 posts · 51 votes
    8y

    5 -10% of market value sounds "too good to be true". 

    How will that be enough to motivate anyone, and how will that be enough to satisfy the lender?  

    I do agree that people are much more likely to open & look at handwritten letters.  I live in a fancy neighborhood & receive tons of junk mail from realtors.  99% go into the recycle bin, since I'm not interested, but I do open and examine the handwritten ones that appear to be cards ( like a B-day or X-mas type card).  Even though I'm almost certain it's junk mail I'll still open it to see who went to so much trouble & expense.  If I were in need of their service I'd be impressed & likely to call.

    I doubt many people facing foreclosure receive many nice handwritten cards & would be very likely to open it.  

    0Reply
  • Brian Fleig
    Parish, NY · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Glenn R. I live in Central NY and agree that picking up land at deep discounts should not be difficult. I'm a newbie but planning on avoiding raw land only because I don't see it selling. I drive by land every day that has been for sale for years. I might pick up a large enough parcel to lease out to sportsmen if a deep discount fell in my lap. As far as small parcels I just don't see anyone building new homes in the area, then again I stay away from the city (Syracuse) and it's suburbs. 

    0Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y
    Brian Fleig i agree with you, as I was first skeptical about all of this too. But because or if I should say get the land at a large discount 5-10% of market value you can also sell it cheap (40-50% market value). So if someone is looking for a piece of land to purchase and they come by my property it will be hard for them to ignore it. Not saying this will definitely get the land sold quickly, but the chances are higher with a steep discount. Imagine looking for a home to buy and you see a home that is 50% below market value, it will be hard to not heavily consider it. @Glen R. The reason this CAN (not definitely will) be done is because some of these pieces of land are inherited or have been held onto for an extremely long time and people simply just want to get rid of it. They don't want it anymore or never did, which is why the taxes have not been paid. Some may not know the resources to get rid of the land or the time, or maybe they are just simply lazy. Land is much different than a home. People are attached to their homes and would never give it up for 5-10% market value, even with liens, its almost disrespectful. But when you have an owner of the land living in Florida who inherited it from his or her family and the land is in upstate NY, a couple of thousand dollars can sound like a good deal to them.
    1Reply
  • Seth WilliamsPro Member
    Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2012 · 583 posts · 353 votes
    8y

    @David Flores - sending during the holiday season may cause a few days of delay in the delivery, and the responses may come in later than usual (because people may be traveling and not picking up their mail), but after all is said and done, I can't see it having a huge negative impact.

    The more important thing is to make sure you're working with the right list (i.e. - data that is current, accurate and targeted appropriately) and sorting it correctly. If you've got these things nailed (which in some cases, is easier said than done), the rest should fall in line without too much trouble.

    Podcast Guest on Show #39
    2Reply
  • Brian Fleig
    Parish, NY · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @David Flores Good thinking on the discount. If I was selling land or a cottage like property I would advertise it heavily in the NYC / NJ area, maybe Boston / Hartford too

    0Reply
  • Benjamin Burket
    Realtor · Canandaigua (Rochester area), NY · Member since 2016 · 87 posts · 37 votes
    8y

    @David Flores, what counties are you working on in Western NY?

    0Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Benjamin Burket none in western NY, I am working closer around the Jersey area. 

    0Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    Just updating my progress here. I just put 140 letters in the mail to be sent out. Putting all the letters together wasn't as bad as I thought. During the football game last night it took me about the entire game (just a little less). My girlfriend also assisted. Next step is to just wait until these leads get the letter and I will record the response rates/closing rates.

    2Reply
  • Account Closed
    Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 4 votes
    8y

    @David Flores have you considered using a mailing service that will do that for you?

    0Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Account Closed, yes definitely! After this round I actually plan on using the mailing service "click2mail". But for this first round I kind of wanted to do it myself and make it extremely personal and then compare the numbers. 

    0Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Seth Williams how do u normally value a property? Do you go by the assessment value the county gives it and then take 10-20% of that to make your offer? Or do you have someone value it for you?

    0Reply
  • Seth WilliamsPro Member
    Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2012 · 583 posts · 353 votes
    8y

    @David Flores - I've got a pretty detailed blog post that explains it, but I'm probably not allowed to post it here. Shoot me a PM and I'll send you all the details.

    Podcast Guest on Show #39
    2Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    Hello All,

    So I sent out all my mail last Monday and I have already gotten some responses. One really interested buyer wanted to get a property off his hands ASAP as his father (who owned the land) is passed away and his mother is 95. He last heard about the property 40 years ago! His mother has not been paying attention to the foreclosure and lien notices and I guess this letter caught her attention and asked her son to follow up. He is 70 and lives in Canada, and really wanted to get some quick money from this property. I even told him on the phone "this offer amount will not boggle your mind as it will be in the thousand to couple of thousand dollar range" and he was okay with that. He called me Friday at 4 pm, so today I wanted to follow up on the lien amounts, and this is where I learned a valuable lesson. Which I will keep in mind for the next round of mailings I send out.

    The tax lien list I had was from 2012. I wanted this list because the county told me that these properties are the next to be foreclosed and I thought these would be the most motivated people to sell. Which is true, but I didn't consider how high the liens could add up. What I was seeing on my list was the lien amounts for that year. Obviously the liens have accumulated all the way up to 2017, but did not know the amounts were just for that year. The market value of the property according to the county was 24k, but the liens were at 10k. At this point I called him back and explained why I couldn't make him an offer, and he was actually very nice about it all. Anyway, I made a rookie mistake going a little to far back on liens. 

    Besides that though, the response rates are coming in very nicely and I may continue my method for the next round. In the meantime I will keep updating this forum if any deals break through/any more news.

    0Reply
  • David Flores
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2016 · 235 posts · 135 votes
    8y

    @Seth Williams going off of my last comment, when would you consider a lien amount too high? What percent of the market value would be too rich for your blood regarding the lien amount?

    0Reply
  • Brandy HorkeyPro Member
    Investor · Orlando, Florida - FL · Member since 2017 · 37 posts · 18 votes
    8y

    @David Flores could this not still be a viable purchase?  If the county assessed it at 24K, surely it is with more than that on the open market. 

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