Real Estate Agent · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2020 · 280 posts · 365 votes
Something has been bothering me. This phrase, "war zones". Am I the only one? Real people actually live in these places that are so casually and and narrowly characterized by this phrase. I'm not discounting that some places are more likely than others to have bad things happen, this is as true in Cleveland as anywhere. But I doubt most of us would knock on the door of a person who lived in one of these neighborhoods and call their street a war zone face to face. Just thinking maybe there's another way. Thoughts?
Something has been bothering me. This phrase, "war zones". Am I the only one? Real people actually live in these places that are so casually and and narrowly characterized by this phrase. I'm not discounting that some places are more likely than others to have bad things happen, this is as true in Cleveland as anywhere. But I doubt most of us would knock on the door of a person who lived in one of these neighborhoods and call their street a war zone face to face. Just thinking maybe there's another way. Thoughts?
Call a spade a spade. The Ghetto is the Ghetto. War zone, Ghetto, Hood or whatever terms people use are terms that are used to describe neighborhoods that have certain characteristics. Crime, drugs, prostitution, blight, property damage etc.....The fact that it makes you uncomfortable to talk honestly about the facts says more about you than the person using the terms.
Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
6y
I wouldnt go randomly insulting strangers neighborhoods but I bet if you offered affordable housing in a non-"war zone" area to those residents they would jump on it with a quickness. Good people do live there but the neglect and poverty and other social problems are what make them so bad.
I get a fair share of tenants moving out of those types of areas as soon as their personal situations improve, they know how bad those areas are.
Something has been bothering me. This phrase, "war zones". Am I the only one? Real people actually live in these places that are so casually and and narrowly characterized by this phrase. I'm not discounting that some places are more likely than others to have bad things happen, this is as true in Cleveland as anywhere. But I doubt most of us would knock on the door of a person who lived in one of these neighborhoods and call their street a war zone face to face. Just thinking maybe there's another way. Thoughts?
Call a spade a spade. The Ghetto is the Ghetto. War zone, Ghetto, Hood or whatever terms people use are terms that are used to describe neighborhoods that have certain characteristics. Crime, drugs, prostitution, blight, property damage etc.....The fact that it makes you uncomfortable to talk honestly about the facts says more about you than the person using the terms.
Investor · NJ · Member since 2018 · 869 posts · 921 votes
6y
What other terms could you use to descibe a place where theres shootings, murders, theft and gang activity everyday? Maybe well call it a drug free zone or a gun free zone that always seems to work.
Real Estate Agent · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2020 · 280 posts · 365 votes
6y
@James Wise You may be right. Let me translate for you so you understand exactly what it says about me.
I come from a proud military family. My husband is an Army vet who toured in Afghanistan and Kuwait. My brother was a Marine drill sergeant who did 3 tours in desert storm. My nephew and niece are Marine Recon and Navy. So I don't use the word war casually. Hence my inquiry.
I understand that people are complex and capable of a broad range of behaviors. Some of those add to quality of life of those around them. Others, less so. Yes, those may include shootings, theft and gang activity @George W.. But they also include birthday parties, kids playing outside and families welcoming new babies home. In every community where people live, both the good and the bad exist. How much of each varies, certainly. However, to characterize an entire city or neighborhood as just one side is a dramatic over simplification of the humanity that exists there- whether the characterization is good or bad. I am personally not inclined toward or amused by simple mindedness. That's number 2 for you.
And finally, I accept that there are varying points of view on things, but I do not accept that condescension or dismissal is the most productive way for us to advance our understanding or even our personal agendas in a forum designed for education and advancement of common goals. That's the third and final thing which you may now presume to know about what this post says about me.
@Account Closed has summed this up perfectly for us. To call someone's neighborhood a "war-zone" to their face would be "insulting". His word. Not mine. I simply ask the question why it's ok to be insulting from a distance. For me, the answer is: it's not. That's a bonus point for you on what this post says about me.
Real Estate Agent · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2020 · 280 posts · 365 votes
6y
@Account Closed I accept that these areas are home to a lot of people who don't have other choices, and, that given the choice, a lot of them would rather live somewhere else. I'm not disputing that there are more attractive places to live. My question is only about the use of this particular wording to describe these locations.
I appreciate your willingness to discuss the issue in terms of the socioeconomic factors at play. Thank you for your reply.
Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
6y
Yeah, I said it would be insulting because it would be used in a pretty insulting context to just go up to someone and say they live in a war zone. It would be the wrong context for the use of the term like its done here....
Here, we are all real estate people and its all about "location location location"... so we have a bunch of shared general terms to talk about locations. "War zone" basically describes a location where you may face actual physical danger. It's just a very vivid idiom that puts a picture of bullets flying around in your mind.
I can't really think of a better term that describes a D/F area where residents or visitors face significantly higher risk of violent crime. But if you can actually get sisyphys's rock up to the top of this mountain and get everyone to use a new term I'd go along too.
Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
6y
I do admit though --- if you know Columbus, I live in and invest in North Linden, and I get annoyed when I see suburbanites on the Columbus reddit or whatever tell people to avoid the whole Linden area because its a "War Zone." I agree that I see ignorance and negative social coding when that term is used in that context...
Ben Lomond, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 337 votes
6y
@Account Closed
This is the worst suggestion possible. The last thing we want to do is sensor free speech of any kind. I am neither for or against using the term "war zones," but I am very against censoring anything just because it makes people uncomfortable. First Amendment Much. This community and forum is meant for a free exchange of ideas, emphasis on the word free.
With that said, words have power and how we use them is important. If people want to stop using the term "war zone" then good for them - but it is not for me (or anyone else) to decide who gets to and when.
**obviously there are exclusions to this, for instance hate speech and the like.
Something has been bothering me. This phrase, "war zones". Am I the only one? Real people actually live in these places that are so casually and and narrowly characterized by this phrase. I'm not discounting that some places are more likely than others to have bad things happen, this is as true in Cleveland as anywhere. But I doubt most of us would knock on the door of a person who lived in one of these neighborhoods and call their street a war zone face to face. Just thinking maybe there's another way. Thoughts?
Call a spade a spade. The Ghetto is the Ghetto. War zone, Ghetto, Hood or whatever terms people use are terms that are used to describe neighborhoods that have certain characteristics. Crime, drugs, prostitution, blight, property damage etc.....The fact that it makes you uncomfortable to talk honestly about the facts says more about you than the person using the terms.
Rental Property Investor · Torrance, CA · Member since 2016 · 724 posts · 1k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Erin Dorsey Robinson:
Something has been bothering me. This phrase, "war zones". Am I the only one? Real people actually live in these places that are so casually and and narrowly characterized by this phrase. I'm not discounting that some places are more likely than others to have bad things happen, this is as true in Cleveland as anywhere. But I doubt most of us would knock on the door of a person who lived in one of these neighborhoods and call their street a war zone face to face. Just thinking maybe there's another way. Thoughts?
I can agree that the term is probably over used. Not all D neighborhoods warrant being called a war zone. But, a lot of them certainly do. The term should not be erased from our vocabulary. It’s detrimental to society when we try to soften the language we use to describe things that make us feel negative emotions. When people describe a place with absurd levels of violent we should never attempt to lessen its negative connotation. That does a disservice to the society as a whole, because it downplays the severity of the situation.
When someone in the suburbs is watching a news story about the south side of Chicago, and they use some multi syllable euphemism to describe it, the message goes in one ear and out the other. Harsh realities should be described with equally harsh language. When we don’t we’re just lying to soften the blow, at the expense of progress. https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
It actually may be doable to change the language.
-From a BiggerPockets policy perspective you could raise the issue with Scott Trench or other BP leadership
-Leadership advises podcast hosts that the wording is offensive and not to perpetuate
-From a forums standpoint you could make it against forum rules
-From a coding perspective you could replace it automatically with *** **** like they do with **** and ****
Etc.
What you are proposing is censorship. It is what countries like China do to control people by controlling the narrative. They censor in the name of good, as you are proposing. Free exchange of ideas includes ideas you don't agree with. Would it be ok if I removed your post simply because I didn't agree with you? People who support censorship always have a different view when it is their words and ideas being censored.
If people don't like the perception, change the perception. It starts with people who live in these communities. I have heard countless people who live in these areas say things like "I grew up in a war zone", so the idea that they are not self aware of the dangers in their neighborhood is not accurate. When bullets fly through the walls of your house or the neighbor kid gets shot dead, yes these people do feel like they are living in a war zone. Some of these neighborhoods are so bad that police don't even want to go into them. How do you sugar coat that?
Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
6y
First point, I agree with @James Wise 100%, and what he said seems to be getting glanced over and missed as we already have an accurate and correct term for these areas, it's called "The Ghetto", and yeah I DO get to say it all I want because I grew up in the projects in the Ghetto.
Next, "War Zone" is a real thing; go to Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, these are war zones and thats what war zone means.
There is some daffy obsession with renaming everything and twisting the psychology of everything.... NO, it's the Ghetto, a turd by any name is still just a lump of sh#t. AND here is the thing, when the "PC Police" come thru and rebrand it something like "Vulnerable Community (lets get real, wtf does that even mean????) it removes the accountability for what is, and for change of it. All this PC BS is just to avoid accountability or responsibility. A ghetto is a ghetto, that's reality and fact, deal with it, because the people who live there do and know what things are regardless of what BS name you brand it.
-From a BiggerPockets policy perspective you could raise the issue with Scott Trench or other BP leadership
-Leadership advises podcast hosts that the wording is offensive and not to perpetuate
-From a forums standpoint you could make it against forum rules
-From a coding perspective you could replace it automatically with *** **** like they do with **** and ****
Etc.
What you are proposing is censorship. It is what countries like China do to control people by controlling the narrative. They censor in the name of good, as you are proposing. Free exchange of ideas includes ideas you don't agree with. Would it be ok if I removed your post simply because I didn't agree with you? People who support censorship always have a different view when it is their words and ideas being censored.
If people don't like the perception, change the perception. It starts with people who live in these communities. I have heard countless people who live in these areas say things like "I grew up in a war zone", so the idea that they are not self aware of the dangers in their neighborhood is not accurate. When bullets fly through the walls of your house or the neighbor kid gets shot dead, yes these people do feel like they are living in a war zone. Some of these neighborhoods are so bad that police don't even want to go into them. How do you sugar coat that?
I have no dog in this fight. It was just a musing because I was bored. I'm not into violating the first amendment and I don't want to be like China. That being said, over time sometimes we decide as a collective certain words are not generally accepted anymore, such as Retard. I used to call people Retard all the time. Now people call me out because its offensive to the people who are actually mentally retarded. So I was thinking maybe War Zones is like Retard. If its offensive to enough people, it may be time to move on from it.
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
It actually may be doable to change the language.
-From a BiggerPockets policy perspective you could raise the issue with Scott Trench or other BP leadership
-Leadership advises podcast hosts that the wording is offensive and not to perpetuate
-From a forums standpoint you could make it against forum rules
-From a coding perspective you could replace it automatically with *** **** like they do with **** and ****
Etc.
Sure but where does it end? The terms are used to describe an uncomfortable situation. By getting rid of the current terms all it's going to do is lead to some schmo being offended by the latest term we've used to replace the old ones.
Guy with Great Hair · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
6y
Simple solution, don't use the term war zone. SOLVED
but you aren't going to change the vocabulary of everyone else because just it makes you uncomfortable then.
and since you brought up the cringe worthy virtue signaling of your families military service that somehow validates your position to be elevated above anyone else's and how they should speak, let me say as a veteran myself, it doesn't bother me at all. I use the term myself
respect individuality, do not censor people, get some real problems to worry about, suck it up buttercup.
First point, I agree with @James Wise 100%, and what he said seems to be getting glanced over and missed as we already have an accurate and correct term for these areas, it's called "The Ghetto", and yeah I DO get to say it all I want because I grew up in the projects in the Ghetto.
Next, "War Zone" is a real thing; go to Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, these are war zones and thats what war zone means.
There is some daffy obsession with renaming everything and twisting the psychology of everything.... NO, it's the Ghetto, a turd by any name is still just a lump of sh#t. AND here is the thing, when the "PC Police" come thru and rebrand it something like "Vulnerable Community (lets get real, wtf does that even mean????) it removes the accountability for what is, and for change of it. All this PC BS is just to avoid accountability or responsibility. A ghetto is a ghetto, that's reality and fact, deal with it, because the people who live there do and know what things are regardless of what BS name you brand it.
Exactly. Where does it end? The terms are used to describe an uncomfortable situation. By getting rid of the current terms all it's going to do is lead to some schmo being offended by the latest term we've used to replace the old ones.
Something has been bothering me. This phrase, "war zones". Am I the only one? Real people actually live in these places that are so casually and and narrowly characterized by this phrase. I'm not discounting that some places are more likely than others to have bad things happen, this is as true in Cleveland as anywhere. But I doubt most of us would knock on the door of a person who lived in one of these neighborhoods and call their street a war zone face to face. Just thinking maybe there's another way. Thoughts?
Specialist · Newark, NJ · Member since 2017 · 80 posts · 66 votes
6y
@Erin Dorsey Robinson
It’s funny how mostly predominantly black neighborhoods are called “war zones” and how that connotation comes with “gang, ghetto, theft, prostitution ...” as someone replied earlier.
It’s just a way to dog whistle “black if bad” without having to actually say it.
I think THATS really the problem.
I Don’t think ppl should be banned from saying it, but just know: WE KNOW WHAT YOU REALLY MEAN.