NNN Leases Question

NNN Leases Question

Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 0 votes

Hello, guys, I had a question in reference to NNN leases:

If a 7-Eleven is $3,000,000 and you put down 30% ($900,000), what would be the true yearly net NOI after paying the mortgage? I tend to see on websites that, for example, on loopnet: "7-Eleven will pay $145,000 a year in NOI", but what about after paying off the mortgage each month, it never states your NOI after paying the mortgage, so, if on the website it states that the 7-Eleven is $3,000,000 and it produces $145,000 a year in NOI, what about after the mortage is paid off, how much would be the true yearly net NOI after paying the mortgage each month? I just don't get why on websites it states "$145,000 a year in NOI" acting like we're buying it fully all cash (because not everyone has $3,000,000 to put down to buy it all cash" when it doesn't state numbers in regards to what down payment that would produce "$145,000 a year in NOI".

I know that I am not providing you guys' much numbers, but any thoughts on some figures in-regards to my question as for the NOI after paying off the mortgage?

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Joel OwensBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
5y

Hi Joe,

I don't think we have talked before on the phone.

There are a few points I want to bring up. I don't know a lot of details about the specific property you are referencing so comments will be general in nature.

1. 7- Eleven with any good amount of primary lease term left go for 4 caps and at best around a 5 cap.

2. At a 4 plus to 5 cap you will not be putting down only 30% because the lenders have DSCR ( debt service coverage ratios ) they follow. With current interest rates at about 3.5% to about 4.0 depending on tenant and other metrics you need about a 5.4 to 5.5 cap minimum to have a chance at getting in with 30% to 32% down.

3. If years under 8 remaining it is a cut off point for most lenders lending. There are some below 8 years down to maybe 6 remaining but they want 35 to 40% down even if there is a good spread of basis points between cap rate and interest rate.

4. 3 million and under there are about 60 to 70% purchases all cash and 30 to 40% using finance. When prices go to 4,5,6 million even if a buyer has all cash they like to get a loan as they do not want all that cash in one property. So at higher prices a smaller amount pay all cash and more use finance.

5. NOI is net operating income if you paid cash ( based on absolute NNN lease). I believe what you are asking is what is the IRR ( Internal Rate of Return ) for the year with mortgage paydown? Generally for my clients when we buy NNN if the spread is about 175 basis points between cap rate and interest rate with a 25 to 30 year amortization and rate in the 3's then year 1 cash on cash off of the down payment is about 6% and with mortgage paydown with principal total IRR is about 10%. Buyers want to try to outpace inflation by a factor of 2 to 3 times and grow money safely with investment grade tenant and long term lease. The financing we get is typically 10 year fixed with 30 year amortization with interest rate in the 3's. So my goal for a lot of my clients is to find a cap rate close to 5.5 or better with investment grade tenant and long term lease in a strong suburban area.

6. Listing brokers that have properties on websites often have junior agents with 1 to 2 years in the business, virtual assistants, or in house marketing graphics people pushing out the flyers. It's a volume business because listing brokers with their splits need volume to survive. They typically have to do 6 to 10 transactions to my 1 because I am a buyer specialist and own my company so I get it all whereas they have to split fees they earn with their company and people on their team.

7. I could keep going on and on but without knowing your liquidity, net worth, age, business or job annual income, 1031 exchange or not, etc. I could not comment much further. I can tell you the good properties go quick within 24 hrs to 48hrs. Properties on Loopnet and other sites have often been sold already the listing companies are using them as BAIT to fish for buyer and build buyers lists to sell more of their inventory too. Whether property is good, mediocre, bad the listing companies push what is in their inventory whereas a buyers broker is doing a complete research from various sources to find properties for their buyer.

I know all this and more because NNN is all I do. Been at it 17 years.

Hope it helps.  

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  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    5y

    @Joe Richardson No one can possibly know how much money you are putting down or what your mtg terms/costs would be, you have to calculate that. NOI is Always before debt service.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

    @Joe Richardson No one can possibly know how much money you are putting down or what your mtg terms/costs would be, you have to calculate that. NOI is Always before debt service.

    I said it in the post, If I were to put down $900,000 and the 7-Eleven cost $3,000,000

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    5y

    Hi Joe,

    I don't think we have talked before on the phone.

    There are a few points I want to bring up. I don't know a lot of details about the specific property you are referencing so comments will be general in nature.

    1. 7- Eleven with any good amount of primary lease term left go for 4 caps and at best around a 5 cap.

    2. At a 4 plus to 5 cap you will not be putting down only 30% because the lenders have DSCR ( debt service coverage ratios ) they follow. With current interest rates at about 3.5% to about 4.0 depending on tenant and other metrics you need about a 5.4 to 5.5 cap minimum to have a chance at getting in with 30% to 32% down.

    3. If years under 8 remaining it is a cut off point for most lenders lending. There are some below 8 years down to maybe 6 remaining but they want 35 to 40% down even if there is a good spread of basis points between cap rate and interest rate.

    4. 3 million and under there are about 60 to 70% purchases all cash and 30 to 40% using finance. When prices go to 4,5,6 million even if a buyer has all cash they like to get a loan as they do not want all that cash in one property. So at higher prices a smaller amount pay all cash and more use finance.

    5. NOI is net operating income if you paid cash ( based on absolute NNN lease). I believe what you are asking is what is the IRR ( Internal Rate of Return ) for the year with mortgage paydown? Generally for my clients when we buy NNN if the spread is about 175 basis points between cap rate and interest rate with a 25 to 30 year amortization and rate in the 3's then year 1 cash on cash off of the down payment is about 6% and with mortgage paydown with principal total IRR is about 10%. Buyers want to try to outpace inflation by a factor of 2 to 3 times and grow money safely with investment grade tenant and long term lease. The financing we get is typically 10 year fixed with 30 year amortization with interest rate in the 3's. So my goal for a lot of my clients is to find a cap rate close to 5.5 or better with investment grade tenant and long term lease in a strong suburban area.

    6. Listing brokers that have properties on websites often have junior agents with 1 to 2 years in the business, virtual assistants, or in house marketing graphics people pushing out the flyers. It's a volume business because listing brokers with their splits need volume to survive. They typically have to do 6 to 10 transactions to my 1 because I am a buyer specialist and own my company so I get it all whereas they have to split fees they earn with their company and people on their team.

    7. I could keep going on and on but without knowing your liquidity, net worth, age, business or job annual income, 1031 exchange or not, etc. I could not comment much further. I can tell you the good properties go quick within 24 hrs to 48hrs. Properties on Loopnet and other sites have often been sold already the listing companies are using them as BAIT to fish for buyer and build buyers lists to sell more of their inventory too. Whether property is good, mediocre, bad the listing companies push what is in their inventory whereas a buyers broker is doing a complete research from various sources to find properties for their buyer.

    I know all this and more because NNN is all I do. Been at it 17 years.

    Hope it helps.  

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    5y

    Hello, Joel.

    So NNN is pretty expensive to get into then? For a $3,000,000 7-Eleven NNN, and I put $900,000 down, how much would my yearly NOI be? It obviously won't be $145,000 a year, I am assuming it would be $50,000? Jeez, If I am putting $900,000 down and only receiving $50,000 a year from it, that's literally nothing. Think about it, I am putting down $900,000 on a commercial property and only receiving $50,000 a year from it, that's horrible? unless I am getting it wrong.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Joel Owens:

    Hi Joe,

    I don't think we have talked before on the phone.

    There are a few points I want to bring up. I don't know a lot of details about the specific property you are referencing so comments will be general in nature.

    1. 7- Eleven with any good amount of primary lease term left go for 4 caps and at best around a 5 cap.

    2. At a 4 plus to 5 cap you will not be putting down only 30% because the lenders have DSCR ( debt service coverage ratios ) they follow. With current interest rates at about 3.5% to about 4.0 depending on tenant and other metrics you need about a 5.4 to 5.5 cap minimum to have a chance at getting in with 30% to 32% down.

    3. If years under 8 remaining it is a cut off point for most lenders lending. There are some below 8 years down to maybe 6 remaining but they want 35 to 40% down even if there is a good spread of basis points between cap rate and interest rate.

    4. 3 million and under there are about 60 to 70% purchases all cash and 30 to 40% using finance. When prices go to 4,5,6 million even if a buyer has all cash they like to get a loan as they do not want all that cash in one property. So at higher prices a smaller amount pay all cash and more use finance.

    5. NOI is net operating income if you paid cash ( based on absolute NNN lease). I believe what you are asking is what is the IRR ( Internal Rate of Return ) for the year with mortgage paydown? Generally for my clients when we buy NNN if the spread is about 175 basis points between cap rate and interest rate with a 25 to 30 year amortization and rate in the 3's then year 1 cash on cash off of the down payment is about 6% and with mortgage paydown with principal total IRR is about 10%. Buyers want to try to outpace inflation by a factor of 2 to 3 times and grow money safely with investment grade tenant and long term lease. The financing we get is typically 10 year fixed with 30 year amortization with interest rate in the 3's. So my goal for a lot of my clients is to find a cap rate close to 5.5 or better with investment grade tenant and long term lease in a strong suburban area.

    6. Listing brokers that have properties on websites often have junior agents with 1 to 2 years in the business, virtual assistants, or in house marketing graphics people pushing out the flyers. It's a volume business because listing brokers with their splits need volume to survive. They typically have to do 6 to 10 transactions to my 1 because I am a buyer specialist and own my company so I get it all whereas they have to split fees they earn with their company and people on their team.

    7. I could keep going on and on but without knowing your liquidity, net worth, age, business or job annual income, 1031 exchange or not, etc. I could not comment much further. I can tell you the good properties go quick within 24 hrs to 48hrs. Properties on Loopnet and other sites have often been sold already the listing companies are using them as BAIT to fish for buyer and build buyers lists to sell more of their inventory too. Whether property is good, mediocre, bad the listing companies push what is in their inventory whereas a buyers broker is doing a complete research for various sources to find properties for their buyer.

    I know all this and more because NNN is all I do. Been at it 17 years.

    Hope it helps.  

    Hello, Joel.

    So NNN is pretty expensive to get into then? For a $3,000,000 7-Eleven NNN, and I put $900,000 down, how much would my yearly NOI be? It obviously won't be $145,000 a year, I am assuming it would be $50,000? Jeez, If I am putting $900,000 down and only receiving $50,000 a year from it, that's literally nothing. Think about it, I am putting down $900,000 on a commercial property and only receiving $50,000 a year from it, that's horrible? unless I am getting it wrong.

  • Rental Property Investor · Myrtle Beach, SC · Member since 2018 · 41 posts · 54 votes
    5y

    @Joe Richardson

    The type of real estate you're talking about (NNN with investment grade tenants) is about the safest sector there is in real estate. Add to that: it's the absolute least amount of work (a couple hours per year after the deal is done)… for the limited risk and limited work you give up the higher returns you'd find in residential.

    These deals are generally for high net-worth individuals (often folks who’ve built smaller commercial or residential portfolios then 1031’d) who are ready for the safety (and tax benefits) these types of properties offer.

  • Real Estate Broker · Kansas City Metro · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Joe Richardson Net leased (N, NN, NNN) are a great alternative to multifamily and other asset classes. They are easier to manage if you have the right tenant mix and can be more hands off. I have closed on several of these for clients in the last 18 months and they cash flow nicely for out of state investors.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    5y

    @Alex Olson The clients that you have closed those deals for, were they all cash deals?

    Going  back to my main question: If I am putting $900,000 on a 7-Eleven and the 7-Eleven is $3,000,000, I would hope to at least make $10,000 per month from it after paying down the mortgage per month, so $10,000 per month after paying down the mortage per month, ESPECIALLY due to the fact I am literally almost putting down $1,000,000 on the property. 

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    5y

    145,0000 starting NOI/3,000,000 = 4.83 cap rate

    So if you invest 3 million cash you have 4.83% annual yield with no mortgage or 12,083.33 a month

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Now if you take a property at debt with much higher cap rate say 5.5 and get interest rate in the 3's then maybe cash on cash from 900,000 down is 6% or 54,000 annually for cash flow.

    120,000 cash flow / 900,000 is 13.33% annual return

    Your expectations are way, way off for a PASSIVE NNN property. It's not the same as active investments like houses or multifamily where you are dealing with headaches and WORKING for yield.

    You would need to become a developer of NNN, or buy dark buildings to reposition, or invest passively with a turn around syndicator of retail assets.

    Sometimes for instance I can syndicate a portfolio of NNN in the 8 plus cap rate range but big portfolios like 30 million in price. Anything 3 million and under is more cap rate compressed.

    Again as I said before the IRR total annual return if you are getting say 10% with mortgage pay down in single tenant NNN that is almost a grand slam and buyers eat it up all day long which equates to about 90,000 on a 900,000 investment. Remember though that some of that is in the mortgage pay down so not useable cash flow today but tied to equity build up.

    It seems like you are wanting a national credit grade investment tenant with long term lease at 3 million with double digit cash on cash returns. That is just simply a pipe dream. I can want the newest Ferrari for 75,000 because it's all I want to spend but that does not make it exist in the market where different supply and demand with pricing is the reality.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2012 · 538 posts · 298 votes
    5y

    Joe,

    Attached is an image from a spread sheet I quickly put together based on your information and the interest rate input from Joel. Joel knows what he is talking about so I would also 'listen' to all his other points.

    As you will see, while the lease does cover the mtg, it does not leave much of a return on your equity. I have not put in other costs that you should consider; accounting, taxes, etc. As an aside, you are also building equity at the rate of ~$3,200 - $3,500 per month depending on the rate.

    NOT trying to give you a hard time but I would be more worried about not being able to answer / figure this out yourself. This kind of analysis is very basic. Learning how to 'run the numbers' should be in every investors tool box. Either that or a 'trusted' advisor / agent.

    I would urge you to learn Excel before making any investment decision.

    Best of luck,

    Oren

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    5y

    @Oren K.@Joel Owens Yea, I don't think NNN is for me then, I am not going to put $900,000 down on an NNN lease and only make $3000 per month, you kidding me? Think about that logically, you're putting down $900,000 and only receiving $3000 every month, haha, no thanks.

  • Real Estate Broker · MD · Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    5y

    @Joe Richardson

    NOI comes before debt coverage. There is no way for the listing agent to know how a potential buyer will finance.

    If you have debt assumptions then subtract that from the NOI and you should have a clear picture of Effective Gross Income.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    5y

    Joe if you found a great cap rate of say 5.5 with investment grade tenant and long term lease then maybe off of 900,000 could get 6% or 54,000 annually which comes out to 4,500 a month. Then you can have tens of thousands in principal paydown as well year 1.

    You are not going to get 10,000 a month off of useable cash flow for 900,000 investment with a diamond NNN property and tenant especially in the 3 million range for STNL.

    If you were buying a 10 to 15 million property then the cap rate can rise some as pool of buyers is smaller so supply and demand.

    Many of my clients are high net worth or ultra high net worth. They are already wealthy to an extent and some make 7 figures a year income and on the low side maybe 300k a year profit from job or business.

    I don't know your situation but it sounds like you are sensitive to max yield earning potential off of the 900k investment. I get that sometimes from people dealing with headache properties before and getting 18 to 20% plus returns and now they think go passive and get 13% say but that is not how the passive NNN market works.

    If someone is already worth say 7 million if they invest 6 million at a 10% return that is 600k annually and still have 1 million liquid  still.

    If they have 1 million and getting 10% then 100k annually overall return then might be fine with that if already making a ton of money elsewhere. It's all situational.

    If you are an accredited investor why not invest with a sponsor for value add turn around deals where equity growth is usually much stronger over time? That way as you level up and net worth grows the returns might not have to be as high as you are looking for now.

    You could try to buy a property for cash a mom and pop tenant at a high cap rate but have a chance they go dark versus an investment grade tenant.

    Investors love investment grade tenants and will pay a premium for them. My last 4 closings we had multiple offers on all of them and won out over other buyers.

    People look at NNN from the outside but do not know the inner workings from those in the business doing it day in and day out. My potential clients we have a conversation about the realities and then they get on board or I wish them well.

  • Deland, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    Maybe put your $900,000 into a reit stock which pays 9 - 10% dividend ?

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    5y

    @Joel Owens So, is it better for me to find an NNN that is $1,000,000 and put down $200,000 - and, do this for 5 NNN's, and then I can net $10,000 a month?

  • Michael K GallagherBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Joel Owens this was fascinating! thank you so much for taking the time to post this much detail! I never thought about comparing cap rate to interest as a way to tell where the down payment would fall based on the DSCR!

  • Rental Property Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2012 · 538 posts · 298 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Joe Richardson:

    @Joel Owens So, is it better for me to find an NNN that is $1,000,000 and put down $200,000 - and, do this for 5 NNN's, and then I can net $10,000 a month?

    Joe,

    I think you are missing the point that Joel is making and it all boils down to running the numbers. Looking at your last post, you are proposing purchasing $5,000,000 and putting down only $1,000,000 in equity.

    Firstly, banks simply don't lend 80% LTV on commercial investments; your personal residence yes but not investment.

    Secondly, even if they did, it would not be on 'smaller' investments / protfolios. Lets face it, for banks, $1,000,000 is still 'small' in their world as it takes about the same amount of work to do the paperwork / DD on almost any size commercial loan.

    Thirdly, even if they did, they would require other security.

    Fourthly, quality NNN investments do not yield 10%.

    Fifthly, even if it does generate an NOI of 10%, the loan is going to eat up much / most of that (leaving DSCR aside) leaving little if any free cash flow before taxes.

    If you could find the kind of opportunities you are describing (Credit Tenant, NNN, Levered, 10% Free Cash Flow), there would be a lineup round the block looking to partner with you (including ME! :).

  • Real Estate Broker · Kansas City Metro · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Joe Richardson No they were not all cash deals. They were financed with 25% down and amortized over 25 years at about 4% apr. 

  • Ronald RohdePro Member
    Attorney · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Oren K.:
    Originally posted by @Joe Richardson:

    @Joel Owens So, is it better for me to find an NNN that is $1,000,000 and put down $200,000 - and, do this for 5 NNN's, and then I can net $10,000 a month?

    Joe,

    I think you are missing the point that Joel is making and it all boils down to running the numbers. Looking at your last post, you are proposing purchasing $5,000,000 and putting down only $1,000,000 in equity.

    Firstly, banks simply don't lend 80% LTV on commercial investments; your personal residence yes but not investment.

    Secondly, even if they did, it would not be on 'smaller' investments / protfolios. Lets face it, for banks, $1,000,000 is still 'small' in their world as it takes about the same amount of work to do the paperwork / DD on almost any size commercial loan.

    Thirdly, even if they did, they would require other security.

    Fourthly, quality NNN investments do not yield 10%.

    Fifthly, even if it does generate an NOI of 10%, the loan is going to eat up much / most of that (leaving DSCR aside) leaving little if any free cash flow before taxes.

    If you could find the kind of opportunities you are describing (Credit Tenant, NNN, Levered, 10% Free Cash Flow), there would be a lineup round the block looking to partner with you (including ME! :).

    Oren, really appreciate your insight. Joel is a very busy guy, so he's just quickly sharing what he skims.

    I would add that even the "roughest" warehouse I own that is NNN is still a 6.5 cap due to the strong tenant history. This is a metal building withsome rust spots, in need of a repaint, falling fences, etc. Paid $2.7m, but very happy after my elbow grease improvements.

    @joe you should be comparing a diamond NNN to savings accounts with 0.84% yield. Or a T bill at 1.3%

  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y

    @Joe Richardson  Thanks for posing this question.

    Everyone else, this has been one of the most enjoyable posts to read.  Really enjoy all of the contributions and angles.

    @Joe Richardson  I note on your background you just joined BP on 7/18/21 and this is your first post.  Welcome to the forum. Its a great place to get info. One of the good and bad things about BP is the wide breadth of both experience and beginning REI paths.

    I will sometimes help a person out on a $1,000,000 Self Storage deal and find out they have $5,000 to spend. I then back up the discussion to the appropriate business angle. Anyone can do REI, just has to be at the right collateral, sweat equity and risk level.

    Can you provide the following info, so this discussion can be more useful.  What I now ask people right up front so I can gauge how to help the best.

    1.  How much liquid cash or collateral (at 65% for bank) do you have?

    2.  How much can you loose and your life doesn't change? $5,000; $50,000; $200,000; etc.  You don't have to sell your car, raid your kids college fund, sell your house, still get to go out to eat on Friday night with your family, etc.  The deal you mention above, even though it is a Quality investment; without the proper analysis (many potential questions) you could loose $200,000 easily.

    3.  What financing mechanism do you plan to use?  Cash.  Hard Money loan.  SBA 10%.  SBA 15%.  Conventional 25%.  Conventional 40%.  Lease.  This along with your collateral level, determines the size and types of deals you should be learning, running calculators on, and pursuing.  I wouldn't even try a deal until I have done about 5 deal calculations and discussed them with someone.

    Breadth of investment objectives:

    If a person says they have zero dollars.  I say great.  Lets discuss Trailer/RV/Apartment house hacking.  Save some rent money.  Say you were paying $800 per month in rent.  Now you have a three bedroom Apartment or house renting at $2,000 and the other two are paying for it.  You just made $800 take home pay with no investment.  You just beat every investor on BP, on return.

    Lets say you are 70 years old and retired.  Worth $7mm as noted above.  Unless you are truly an unusual investor, you are worried about Wealth preservation and 6% per year across the board, might be okay if inflation is at 3.5%.

    Help us understand where you are at on the three questions above.  What your interests are.  And we will pour out a ton of experience and directional info.

    Again, thanks everyone, this was truly one of the more thought provoking and enjoyable posts I have read.

    Start small and Make Your Big Mistakes Early.

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2017 · 271 posts · 259 votes
    5y

    All of the feedback here is spot on. It pays to learn how to underwrite deals before you start investing. It sounds like your return expectations don't line up with the asset class and investment type. 

    I'd consider finding syndicators who can achieve 5-9% cash on cash returns and hit IRR's in the mid-teens. It's higher risk/reward but is still minimal work once you've underwritten the operator and the deal.

    Regardless, I'd recommend hiring an unbiased 3rd party expert to analyze any deal you jump into.

  • Investor · SC NC, VA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 756 votes
    5y

    Quick note on terminology. NOI, or Operating Income minus Operating Expenses, NEVER includes either debt service or estimated capital expenses. That's because these are not Operational Expenses!

    Joe, you need to learn what is ROE and how it is calculated, cap rates and where they come from, estimating capital expenses, square footage revenue and comparisons, the best structures for a NNN, and many others. A good commercial broker can handle these for you. You have a lot of money at risk.

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