Who is responsible for permits/codes

Who is responsible for permits/codes

Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
Architects, builders, GCs, investors, and anyone else who knows anything about applying for permits on a late scale renovation I need your help. OK so the title is a bit misleading since I am well aware, at least I think I am of who is responsible for pulling permits and following building codes for a project, BUT I'm in a tough spot and would love the wide ranging, and excellent advice from the community. I have more than one question, so I think the best way to approach this is to lay out the situation, and ask everyone what they would do in my position. I'm also looking for advice on how to avoid this situation in the future. There are no mistakes, only learning opportunist. Nor have I lost any money, yet, I am just paying for an education. So with that said.... I'm in the middle of our largest renovation yet and we are stuck at a crossroads with the township. The deal is structured as follows. I'm an agent, investor, property manager and project manager. For this deal, I am bringing my project management skills, managing the process, I brought all parties to the table, I am going to list the house when it is time, and I analyzed the comps to make sure there is profit to made on the back end of this thing, and I'm bringing half the capital for repairs, the owner/seller is bringing the other half. We are splitting the profit in the end. I partnered with the owner of the home. He has no experience flipping, but sees the potential of his property being fixed up. We brought on a GC to handle the construction and it's fairy large job. The GC is also sharing in the profits as well, rather than marking up materials and labor or a flat percentage of the job. The current structure is 1050 sq ft and needs a full rehab. Homes in the area are selling for 200-225$ a sq ft, and the size of the home makes it pretty undesirable so we decided to hire an architect to come up with plans for a second story addition over the exsisting house. This is where it gets tricky. Nearly every township in my area has different processes, guidelines, requirements, permits and codes. We tried to follow a plan that would not require any type of variance or "approval" from the township other than normals permits and inspections. The builder/GC is experienced, but not in this particular township. He made a few assumptions when working with the architect to come up with the plans and when everything was submitted for review, the township kicked it back and said we need a variance due to the current setback of the house from the road, adding the addition isn't grandfather in. Normally this wouldn't be a huge issue, but we started the process over 4 months ago. When we started, the builder assumed it would take a few weeks to get plans, a few more to get permits, and we would be done within another 6-8 weeks. So about 3 months start to finish. 4 months in, we need to wait Another months to attend a township hearing for the variance regarding the setback. We also have a list of about 5 other items we need to get for the township before they will even review our building application. The owner is not happy. We expected to sell in the "summer selling season" but it's not going to happen. He also brought us on because of our experience flipping houses, yet the back and fourth with the township is making it appear that myself and the builder don't have the project under control, and we having even started building yet. For the sake of round numbers, the house is worth $125k, which the seller will be paid at settlement. Renovation budget is $175k. Comps are selling for $400-$450k in under 7 days. In fact there were ZERO homes availabile in that price range when we started, because everyone that is listed sellers immediately. So now that you know the story..... Where did we go wrong with the township? Should I have met with them ahead of time to tell them what we were thinking and what we would need? Here's an example of being penny smart and pound foolish. We decided to go with the cheaper, out of town architect, rather than the twice as expensive, but in town architect who would have had a better understanding of what the township required. Is it on the architect, the GC, or myself as the project manager and realtor to get ahead of the building codes and make sure we will be able to complete the plans we were working on? The GC has been in the township building on 4 occasions speaking with the office members, gate keepers, code inspectors to prepare the applications. Each time they would send him inn his way with more information, but each time they would leave something out only to be discovered the next time he tried to submit. There has to be a better way. How do I convince the seller to hang on for the ride? All the out of pocket costs up until this point and until building are on myself, so he's just losing "time" "patience" and "confidence" that we can actually complete the job. Part of me wants to slap some paint on the walls and throw a kitchen and bath into a tiny little 3 bedroom house in a great neighbor and move on with a few thousand dollar profit at best. The other wants to wade through the BS so we can reap the benefits of the full blown development. This game isn't easy. And every project is different. My motto has been "if it were easy, the rewards wouldn't be so great, and everyone and their sister would be doing it" so the setbacks are to be expected to a certain extent. But the recent developments are going to mean more time And more money just to get through the planning stage, with many unknowns to follow as we execute on a $175k renovation. Advice, input and experiences would be greatly appreciated.
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
9y

It's your fault.  It's always your fault.  No matter what the issue, what the problem, what the obstacle, what the risk -- it is YOUR FAULT.

I wrote this article over seven years ago, and I consider it the most important thing any new investor (actually, just anyone) should read:

https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2010/02/1...

I've done several hundred deals since I had this revelation, and I've found that that the only time I ever really stress is when I forget the most basic rule -- it's always my fault.

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  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    9y

    It's your fault.  It's always your fault.  No matter what the issue, what the problem, what the obstacle, what the risk -- it is YOUR FAULT.

    I wrote this article over seven years ago, and I consider it the most important thing any new investor (actually, just anyone) should read:

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2010/02/1...

    I've done several hundred deals since I had this revelation, and I've found that that the only time I ever really stress is when I forget the most basic rule -- it's always my fault.

  • Contractor · Rosemount, MN · Member since 2016 · 54 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    I'm a GC in the Twin Cities (Minnesota) and any time we are doing an "Addition" regardless of it's size, I ask the city (or plan review, Bldg Official, etc) for anything and everything I may need to get through permitting in order to complete my project. That way there are no surprises. It's best to find out in the beginning than to be stumped along the way. Almost always, when you're doing an addition, the city will require variances/setbacks, a site plan, or updated survey. The GC should have known this regardless of not being familiar with the city. Hope this helps and good luck.

  • Investor · Robertsdale, AL · Member since 2016 · 32 posts · 4 votes
    9y
    William, I tend to agree with J here. It seems as if you were project manager so it would be your fault. But everyone who puts their neck out to do real estate runs a risk of getting their heads chopped off. So the owner and GC are at fault as well. But instead of figuring out who is to blame I think you're right in putting this message out there and learning. It shows growth beyond one single situation. Best of luck. I understand the difficulties of not meeting timelines. It's going to happen in our business. Chris
  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    9y

    As a contractor and a member of my towns zoning board, i would say it's all of your faults. this is not a building code issue, rather a zoning issue, before you get into a project you should know the zoning codes for that town, the architect should know the codes and the contractor should have some idea. you should take the time before any flip project and know what you can and can't do, without being hung up in a zoning issue.

    I will give you an example. i looked at a property on Saturday, it was an elementary school and now a church, 22,000 sq', the church is now selling. before i put in an offer, which was an hour ago, i looked into the town zoning and even called the zoning officer, i made an offer to buy the property contingent on passing a zoning hearing to change the zoning of the property. right now the property is residential and i need it commercial in order to make it into an apartment building. I will pay for that meeting and all the specialist, but it is better than buying the place then finding out i can not do anything with it except find a school or religious group to lease it, because that's all it can be right now.

  • Jonathan S.Pro Member
    Engineer · Montclair, NJ · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 57 votes
    9y

    I agree with Patrick, pretty much everyone involved is at fault in some way. The architect and GC should've known to survey the lot and double check setbacks and boundaries prior to putting together any sort of plans for an addition. The three of you should've done some sort of due diligence to determine potential code and zoning issues. Someone should've approached the town and had their two cents thrown in. 

    Now you can sit there and point fingers or come up with a solution. I think the best move here is to take a step back and be realistic. What and how long will it take to complete the project. Put together a realistic construction schedule and add an extra buffer for the town's bureaucratic BS. Can yo weather the storm and still come out with your head above water at the end? Would it make more sense and return a better profit if you just pivot and go a different direction? 

  • Architect · Bloomfield Twp, MI · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    A couple points to add, and I'm not disagreeing with any of the above comments. 

    Usually everyone knows which municipalities are hard to deal with, shame on you for not being aware.  But that said, nothing is more frustrating than thinking you are finally on top of things and then someone forgot to mention "one little detail."  I've been there before and it sucks.

     Someone has to research the zoning ordinances before starting design.  The architect can certainly do this, if asked.  This is always an additional service in my contacts.  In fact, due to the nature of the process, I do site plan approval at an hourly rate for many reasons.  The first is the it's far to unpredictable to bill fairly any other way.  I also really hate the unpredictablity of public meetings.  Spa can really create havoc on scheduling, causing problems for other projects.  Since I bill hourly I give my clients plenty of warning as the tab creeps up.  A 10k bill is not outlandish and is not something a small project can afford.

    40k is the most I've ever charged for site plan approval.  That was for a drive thru restaurant about 5 hours away, so in addition to meeting time there was also travel and hotel expenses.

    I know it sucks, but you'll learn a lot through the process and be more profitable next time around.

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    J Scott I'll have to take a look at the article. I should have mentioned it in the OP but I am 100% taking responsibility for being in this spot. It is definitely my fault. My question isn't really who's fault is it, rather, how do others out there tread these waters with GCs and townships....looking back, I should have been in the township building day 1, myself, GC or not asking questions. I assumed he would have it under control.
  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    I appreciate all the feedback. I really forgot to point out I'm well aware I need to take most of the blame. Whether the GC or architect were supposed to know or research the zoning laws, I should have confirmed they were doing so along the way. By far the most frustrating part was being dangled along through the process as we waited for this and waited for that, only to submit, have them ask for revisions and more info, then to submit again, and this time it was a different clerk and that's where the new list of 5 more items, including the dagger, the setback variance. So anyway blaming people won't create a solution, and that's why I'm here. We were on thin ice with the seller going into submission, so I'm expecting the worst. To be honest, we can easily weather the storm. Carrying costs are nominal. The agent in me fears the long term outlook of the market a bit, but aside from that, the real challenge is being able to show a seller with no experience in this business at all, that projects sometimes (read - always) take long than expected. I almost see it as an opportunity to do more deals, and be more profitable. We have had a large pile of cash sitting on the sidelines while we messed around with the plans, what id really like to see happen is everyone realize it's going to be a long, slow road to the finish line, and maybe early spring of next year will be our target sale date. But in the meantime we can pick up a deal or maybe even two on the small deals to fill the time between. Selling that side of it is another story. If the seller wants to walk, so be it. I'll pay the tuition and move onto my next year of schooling.
  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    @William C.

    I have been a building and zoning official for twenty plus years and a real estate investor for 5.  Sounds like you have a non-conforming building on the lot.  Non-conforming means the setback changed over the years and was legal at one time, but at some point the jurisdiction changed the setback rules which made it non-conforming.  Any change such as an addition that violates the current setback requires a zoning variance. 

    Most of the information for most townships is available on line.  When designing projects, check zoning requirements and building code requirements.  It is a good idea to meet with the local officials, but you should do your own homework so you can have informative discussions. 

    In retrospect, its easy to blame someone for what went wrong.  Clearly the responsibilities needed to be laid out so each party knew what expectations were expected.

    If I can be of any help let me know.      

  • Architect · Bloomfield Twp, MI · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    William,

    Are you sure you don't want to see 50 comments assigning blame!

    I suggest creating a Due Diligence checklist based on this project. 

    Every jurisdiction is different, but it at least provides a framework.  A listing of required and current or proposed setbacks would have uncovered the issue you are dealing with now.

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y

    @Michael Shuell yes I'm sure that won't help.  The GC and I need to somehow convince the seller to allow us to keep going.  So unless someone is able to show me how this is the current owners fault, blame doesn't matter in keeping this deal together.  I'm responsible for everyone other than the owner.

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Garrett were we supposed to go online a scroll through 100s of pages of code?    I tried that.  It's very easy to get lost.  

    How do others handle it?  Their GC?  Themselves?  The architect?  Read through themselves.  Looking for ideas to learn for future along with learning from the past.

  • Architect & Investor · Bothell, WA · Member since 2015 · 102 posts · 78 votes
    9y

    @William C. Here is my 2 cents (as an architect and project manager). It is the architects responsibility to navigate, understand, and comply with the AHJ Zoning regulations, however, I have a checklist that is very simple and straight forward that outlines the zoning code and building code requirements (a simple spreadsheet). As a project manager, I check with the permitting department to see if they have a process for a pre-application meeting (in the Seattle area most jurisdictions do, if they do nothave a process, then I set a meeting up with them). A couple grand in fees to the AHJ is worth it; I am sure you see that. I require my architect and GC (and in your case the owner) to attend the pre-app. meeting with me, and take notes (some cities will let you record the audio of the meeting). Request- planning, building, fire, and engineering to attend and ask the attendees on the cities side of the meeting to put together a list of their requirements and requests from the meeting. 

    The pre-app meetings typically uncover all of those pesky zoning, building and design requirements in the first couple weeks of a project. It also gives my team a checklist and argumentative document in the permitting process, to enforce the items required to obtain a permit from the jurisdiction. As an architect, I then make sure that we only give the city what they need to approve the permit (Note- the permit set, bid set, and construction set are all different levels of detail for a project- if you give a detailed set to the AHJ they are required to review EVERY drawing). 

    This process aligns my team and the city as partners on the project. The city knows that a team of professionals are working to enhance the neighborhood, and community in a way that makes the internal processes for the permitting department as easy as possible.

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y

    @Mike Garrett thanks for your response, very valuable info.  I had mentioned we decided to go with the cheaper, yet familiar architect.  In hindsight it was a mistake.  But the pre app meeting is the key to this process.  We needed the info ahead of time, rather than when we went to submit the permit applications.  I had assumed the architect would navigate the zoning laws, so that falls back on me.  

    Knowing the zoning laws will also help to plan the project accordingly.  It was mentioned above, the property is in fact non-conforming.  They changed the setback laws and by making changes to more than 50% of the GLA we must meet them, or get a variance.  Knowing this, maybe we could have planned and only added 49% more sq ft, to avoid the variance.  Maybe not though.  Non the less I appreciate your input, now it a matter of holding the pieces together.

  • Rental Property Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 132 posts · 91 votes
    9y

    @Mike Garrett has it about right. I always try to meet with the city on anything that is not strictly permitted  by the zoning, to help understand the schedule and the requirements.  When interviewing Architects, I'd make sure they have familiarity with the municipality and with the project type.

    In response to your question about how to convince the owner to hang on, I'd offer to  pay him some sort of  interest or holding costs for the additional months.

    Good luck and I hope this all works out.

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    Rich Kniss thanks. We are already covering ALL holding costs, including his interest, which he'd be stuck paying normally anyway. I do feel we made need to sweeten the pot even more for him, but he's not losing anything but Time? At this point. But it's not even his time. Anyway, maybe someone out there could help shed some light on what the "typical" timeline is for a major renovation? What would you tell a homeowner that wanted an addiction? Accounting for all the permits that would need to be done and scheduling. I tried to remind my father in law about the time he got an addition put on. He signed the contract in march, and 4-5 months later they came back to build it. He said we'll yea but that was only because that's what their schedule permitted. But it's possible their schedule also accounted for how long it can take to get approval from the township. So what have you guys experienced? From the day you hired the architect, to the day you started swinging a hammer, how much time will you account for or tell the homeowner it will take? For all I know we are ahead of pace??
  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @William C. If you're in less than 5k, walk away. Seems like it won't pencil out, the wait time and etc. Clearly the 125k + 175k with 400k selling will not be worth it. As to who is responsible? You call them Project Manager, ding ding, PMs should know what they need to do, and once there is an issue, how to solve it, you are the captain of the boat, you can hit the iceberg or you can smooth sail, hence the name Manager of the Project (meaning it has a start and finish, and this manager manages it all).  The architect should be experienced enough to tell you normal codes and make calls to the city before even doing concept design. If an architect is hired, the GC will sit back and wait for the plans to be approved and build from the plans.  So the issue here is the project manager and the architect is not familiar with their job; but then again, who hired the architect in the first place? Trying to go cheap means cheap workers as well -- including architect, another penny smart and pound foolish was the move of building a second story based on another neighborhood assumptions, a 1-2 page draft with 2-3 days worth of architectural work would have gotten yourself a really nice picture of what the city needs instead of assumptions. Variance is tricky and takes time, council meetings on small towns are once or every two weeks. There is no solution to your problem, either comply or bite the bullet and walk away. As to the owner issue, the soup is already going sour, either you pay him off at 125k or have his share bought off.

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    9y

    @Manolo D., in my town the meetings are once a month, then they have to wait another month for us to pass the resolution , so by the time everything is drawn, submitted, notices sent out to neighbors within 200 feet, the meeting and resolution meeting ( which is the next month) you are looking at least 3  months wait time before you can build. 

    William, why not offer to pay the holding costs for that time delay, or at least half of it, this may help smooth things out.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Patrick Liska That is, if you get it right the first time. What if you don't know what you're doing and fail once or twice?
  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    9y

    @Manolo D., that's correct, but usually if we feel something is passable but still needs to make an adjustment, we will put it as a condition that must be done. But if it needs too much adjustment we may suggest that they re convene to the next meeting ( this saves the cost of re advertising the meeting in the paper again), so that will add another month to their schedule.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Patrick Liska Obviously I don't know much about those variances, but working with government cities as clients, I've heard all the horror stories from project managers that are assigned to me that were on a different department before. They don't do anything on my job except to take 5 mins worth of project talk/pictures, and 55 mins of chat.  Usually here they have a list of what you need, and variances are common along with "typical residential" remodels and etc, some adopt templates for owners to simply fill and "attach" to a 1 page site plan and 1 page existing and new. Some examples are typical framing, typical deck, typical retaining wall, etc. Although some cities don't have those options/resources, I'm pretty sure at a county level, it has similar moves. Going back to variances, don't they usually have a checklist after you submit prelim documents of what you are trying to do? Let's say you start the process of site plan, and existing/new, then go to city, then get a "corrections list" (it will be very long) but at least now, you have a checklist of what you need instead of going back to back with them; or, to make it better, they have a template list on the first place.

  • Manville, NJ · Member since 2015 · 140 posts · 59 votes
    9y

    My 2 cents.  I am a rehabber, land lord, and general contractor.  I would say that although the town will make you dot your i's and cross your y's most of time zoning boards will approve a variance on projects like this one.  If all the neighborhood is larger 2 story homes then although the setback my differ the building will better conform to the neighborhood, thereby improving all values and increasing tax revenue.  Townships want the houses to be nice well cared for homes.  I live near a municipality that has a reputation for having a terrible zoning board and building department. So before I considered a project there I read 2 years of zoning board minutes.  What I found was although they can be very frustrating to deal with.  Almost every project that went before them was approved, sometimes it required more then one hearing.  The moral is that the people you are trying to work with care about the town and having a nice renovated home is far better then a dilapidated home in the neighborhood.

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y

    @Manolo D. how doesn't it pencil out??  Budget is $150k, we'll be in for $280k and we will NET $400k, worst case scenario....in what world is that too thin?

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y

    the head of zoning flat out said they will approve it, it's just a matter of going through the motions. 

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @William C.:

    @Manolo D. how doesn't it pencil out??  Budget is $150k, we'll be in for $280k and we will NET $400k, worst case scenario....in what world is that too thin?

     Where did that come from? I have read this.

    For the sake of round numbers, the house is worth $125k, which the seller will be paid at settlement. Renovation budget is $175k. Comps are selling for $400-$450k.

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