Have we largely become a Huckster Economy?

Have we largely become a Huckster Economy?

JD MartinBusiness Member
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Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

I have been thinking about this for a while, and I was listening to a podcast tonight while I was in the shower and it just kind of brought it around to this thread. 

Today, it seems to me, at least in the US, there is a greater proportion of "huckster-ism" in our economy and in the ambitions of the population than in any time that I can remember (I'm half a decade from 60) in my life. I see and hear signs of this everywhere I look, and I like to think it's not just because I'm looking for it.

I'm no pollyanna. I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value. But today I see more of this than I can ever remember in the past, and I see it everywhere. Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket. Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. 

And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays? 

Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads. We created value by rehabilitating dilapidated housing and renting it out to people in need of quality homes to rent at reasonable prices. It wasn't rocket science. When I was a kid people created businesses by purchasing property and building homes, or renting out space and creating a nice restaurant, things like that. Hucksterism was Amway and Tupperware parties, but everyone knew it. Bringing this back to the podcast, the entire thing consisted of a guest telling people to figure out ways to sell repackaged information to people and generate advertising dollars, which the podcast itself was generating by appealing to people's get rich quick bias. 

I'm no Luudite, and I know there's still plenty of things of value being created out there (even if I dislike some of it like AI), but I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value. 

I'm going to link some people here because I know they'll have smart things to say. And generate some responses here as well. Hey, maybe I can get paid per click from this thread! 😂

@Russell Brazil @Jay Hinrichs @James Wise @Chris Seveney @Don Konipol @James Hamling @Bruce Woodruff @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene @Shiloh Lundahl @Steve Vaughan  and if I left you off this list it might be because I just couldn't get you tagged properly :)

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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
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Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
11mo
Quote from @JD Martin:

I have been thinking about this for a while, and I was listening to a podcast tonight while I was in the shower and it just kind of brought it around to this thread. 

Today, it seems to me, at least in the US, there is a greater proportion of "huckster-ism" in our economy and in the ambitions of the population than in any time that I can remember (I'm half a decade from 60) in my life. I see and hear signs of this everywhere I look, and I like to think it's not just because I'm looking for it.

I'm no pollyanna. I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value. But today I see more of this than I can ever remember in the past, and I see it everywhere. Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket. Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. 

And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays? 

Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads. We created value by rehabilitating dilapidated housing and renting it out to people in need of quality homes to rent at reasonable prices. It wasn't rocket science. When I was a kid people created businesses by purchasing property and building homes, or renting out space and creating a nice restaurant, things like that. Hucksterism was Amway and Tupperware parties, but everyone knew it. Bringing this back to the podcast, the entire thing consisted of a guest telling people to figure out ways to sell repackaged information to people and generate advertising dollars, which the podcast itself was generating by appealing to people's get rich quick bias. 

I'm no Luudite, and I know there's still plenty of things of value being created out there (even if I dislike some of it like AI), but I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value. 

I'm going to link some people here because I know they'll have smart things to say. And generate some responses here as well. Hey, maybe I can get paid per click from this thread! 😂

@Russell Brazil @Jay Hinrichs @James Wise @Chris Seveney @Don Konipol @James Hamling @Bruce Woodruff @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene @Shiloh Lundahl @Steve Vaughan  and if I left you off this list it might be because I just couldn't get you tagged properly :)

Unfortunately the glitz and glamour is what sells, especially training programs. No one wants to hear that you are going to have to work 60 hours a week to get your business built and once its built it will run itself.  While at times I sit here and shake my head, I have always been a "hustle guy" from when I was a kid also running out full speed even a groundball I hit back to the pitcher (because that is what I was taught). 

People want the easy way out, but in that same token those who work their tails off can have significant benefit and advantage over this. For example I will use myself where we buy defaulted debt and it is a lot of work to manage. Most do not want to do what we do, as its like cleaning portajohns. But we see tremendous opportunities because many other competitors never even open the proverbial portajohn door because so many times it has been a taco bell explosion that they also miss a lot of the brand new/clean and shiny opportunities because they did not want to do the work to even see what they had.

For those in real estate i ask you, how many who take the easy road - such as wholesaling off MLS have been able to retire off wholesaling? How many airbnb arbitrage people? Yes there are probably a few, but there are over 1M people subscribed to this forum and my guess is it is less than 100 (that is probably very high number too).

Then look at who was tagged in this post - people who are active and doing what they say they are doing and not taking shortcuts. I would bet everyone named in that list could buy everyone a very nice dinner several times over if you know what i mean.

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  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    11mo
    Quote from @JD Martin:

    I have been thinking about this for a while, and I was listening to a podcast tonight while I was in the shower and it just kind of brought it around to this thread. 

    Today, it seems to me, at least in the US, there is a greater proportion of "huckster-ism" in our economy and in the ambitions of the population than in any time that I can remember (I'm half a decade from 60) in my life. I see and hear signs of this everywhere I look, and I like to think it's not just because I'm looking for it.

    I'm no pollyanna. I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value. But today I see more of this than I can ever remember in the past, and I see it everywhere. Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket. Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. 

    And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays? 

    Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads. We created value by rehabilitating dilapidated housing and renting it out to people in need of quality homes to rent at reasonable prices. It wasn't rocket science. When I was a kid people created businesses by purchasing property and building homes, or renting out space and creating a nice restaurant, things like that. Hucksterism was Amway and Tupperware parties, but everyone knew it. Bringing this back to the podcast, the entire thing consisted of a guest telling people to figure out ways to sell repackaged information to people and generate advertising dollars, which the podcast itself was generating by appealing to people's get rich quick bias. 

    I'm no Luudite, and I know there's still plenty of things of value being created out there (even if I dislike some of it like AI), but I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value. 

    I'm going to link some people here because I know they'll have smart things to say. And generate some responses here as well. Hey, maybe I can get paid per click from this thread! 😂

    @Russell Brazil @Jay Hinrichs @James Wise @Chris Seveney @Don Konipol @James Hamling @Bruce Woodruff @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene @Shiloh Lundahl @Steve Vaughan  and if I left you off this list it might be because I just couldn't get you tagged properly :)

    I don’t think most of the inexperienced wanting to get into wholesaling real estate or rental arbitrage are thinking that they want to get rich quick with little effort, or that what they propose to do adds no value. I think that the vast majority are sincere in that they desire independence, wealth accumulation, status and are willing to work for it.

    The problem as I see it is that almost all these individuals lack education and experience in business, so they tend to be easily misled by the hucksters, promoters, and braggarts pushing the narrative of no experience, education or money needed for success in these endeavors. Add to the fact that this group (as a whole) lacks capital; has had little financial success in life; and are probably (with some exceptions) not particularly well educated and you have the results we see on BP after the no money no experience guru holds a “free” weekend seminar.

    As an historical interesting point, the first “influencer” to successfully turn their popularity into huge financial success did it 75 years ago. At the time Tropicana “owned” 80% of the US orange juice market. An upstart small company utilizing frozen “concentrate” technology wanted to challenge Tropicana and become a solid Number 2 in the industry. They wanted a celebrity spokesperson for early TV but could only afford to pay for lesser knowns. Bing Crosby, one of the best known celebrities of his time had an idea - he would do the commercials, promotions and other work at 0 initial cost -but would receive 50% ownership in Minute Maid. When Minute Maid was sold to a large corporate some years later “The Bing” collected a couple of hundred million $.
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    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Don Konipol:
      Quote from @JD Martin:

      I have been thinking about this for a while, and I was listening to a podcast tonight while I was in the shower and it just kind of brought it around to this thread. 

      Today, it seems to me, at least in the US, there is a greater proportion of "huckster-ism" in our economy and in the ambitions of the population than in any time that I can remember (I'm half a decade from 60) in my life. I see and hear signs of this everywhere I look, and I like to think it's not just because I'm looking for it.

      I'm no pollyanna. I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value. But today I see more of this than I can ever remember in the past, and I see it everywhere. Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket. Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. 

      And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays? 

      Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads. We created value by rehabilitating dilapidated housing and renting it out to people in need of quality homes to rent at reasonable prices. It wasn't rocket science. When I was a kid people created businesses by purchasing property and building homes, or renting out space and creating a nice restaurant, things like that. Hucksterism was Amway and Tupperware parties, but everyone knew it. Bringing this back to the podcast, the entire thing consisted of a guest telling people to figure out ways to sell repackaged information to people and generate advertising dollars, which the podcast itself was generating by appealing to people's get rich quick bias. 

      I'm no Luudite, and I know there's still plenty of things of value being created out there (even if I dislike some of it like AI), but I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value. 

      I'm going to link some people here because I know they'll have smart things to say. And generate some responses here as well. Hey, maybe I can get paid per click from this thread! 😂

      @Russell Brazil @Jay Hinrichs @James Wise @Chris Seveney @Don Konipol @James Hamling @Bruce Woodruff @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene @Shiloh Lundahl @Steve Vaughan  and if I left you off this list it might be because I just couldn't get you tagged properly :)

      I don’t think most of the inexperienced wanting to get into wholesaling real estate or rental arbitrage are thinking that they want to get rich quick with little effort, or that what they propose to do adds no value. I think that the vast majority are sincere in that they desire independence, wealth accumulation, status and are willing to work for it.

      The problem as I see it is that almost all these individuals lack education and experience in business, so they tend to be easily misled by the hucksters, promoters, and braggarts pushing the narrative of no experience, education or money needed for success in these endeavors. Add to the fact that this group (as a whole) lacks capital; has had little financial success in life; and are probably (with some exceptions) not particularly well educated and you have the results we see on BP after the no money no experience guru holds a “free” weekend seminar.

      As an historical interesting point, the first “influencer” to successfully turn their popularity into huge financial success did it 75 years ago. At the time Tropicana “owned” 80% of the US orange juice market. An upstart small company utilizing frozen “concentrate” technology wanted to challenge Tropicana and become a solid Number 2 in the industry. They wanted a celebrity spokesperson for early TV but could only afford to pay for lesser knowns. Bing Crosby, one of the best known celebrities of his time had an idea - he would do the commercials, promotions and other work at 0 initial cost -but would receive 50% ownership in Minute Maid. When Minute Maid was sold to a large corporate some years later “The Bing” collected a couple of hundred million $.

      Don to add to this .. one of my bizz partners in Napa was good friends with A Palmer and A palmer used his name on my buddies wines.. A palmer got a royalty A Palmer had nothing to do with the wine industry.. Just another Celebrity endorsement deal. 

      I think it goes to the mind set and I think that mind set as you mentioned has been around for decades if not over a century and I first experienced it going to MLM set up meetings back in the 70s and the pitch has not changed just the product. IE presenter puts up pictures of his wife and Family and says this is why we do this so we can spend more time with the KIddos.. there is a very strong pull in society to want to do that apparently at least for 9 to 5 employees. And for some reason they think these real estate ventures are going to set them free time wise while at the same time allow them to live the life they deserve. 

      Granted RE can do that but its not instant oatmeal. Takes time  Drive and as you note some smarts to get there.. And wholesaling seems to be the one that is mass marketed as the quickest way to earn CHUNKS of money so one can them buy C class rentals and end up living on cash flow.. 

      I just had a very nice Young BP member reach out to me this weekend.. And that was his words verbatim. I want to wholesale so I can earn Money so I can buy C class so I can spend more time with my wife and kids and live off of rents.. Its a very prevalent mind set.. Just like if you make it in Amway you can live the life. AS an Aside I sat next to a fellow on a cross country flight that opened up most of South America for Amway years ago and I could tell he was had made it.. Few at the top do very well. So there is always going to be  a top producer just like in RE there are wholesalers that make millions and there are wholesalers that peter out in 6 months. Its in all industries.. I have owned 3 RE brokerages over the decades and in each one of say 50 agents.. 5 killed it 5 did pretty good the rest just did a few deals until they moved on. Same when you go to buy a car look up on the wall of Salesmen of the month its generally the same two folks.. The CLOSERS !!!
  • Lender · Lake Geneva WI, USA · Member since 2023 · 141 posts · 72 votes
    11mo

    In response to your post 

    "I am half a decade away from 60" :  Try talking to younger men about their job/dating/life prospects in this new American landscape which has changed dramatically since you were in your earlier 20's and 30's.  You might find an answer to a lot of your questions/thoughts.  I'd recommend truly listening to them before telling them to pull themselves up by their boot straps. For us, walking into an office, making eye contact, and a firm handshake - isn't at all what it takes to find quality employment for a lot of younger guys. 

    "I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value." Can you describe 'real value'? What is the 'real value' of the American dollar since Nixon ended the gold standard - it is a fiat currency not backed by anything? Is/was their any value in Toys'R us that made childrens toys? Has there been any value by shipping manufacturing overseas, only to be sold on consumerism? I find more value from crypto, wholsalers and podcasts than I do from Black rock and vanguard or the stock market. 

    "Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket" : I feel as though this was made in poor taste.  I know plenty of people working as wholsalers, podcasters, game developers, YouTubers etc and I am glad they're able to do what they do and be paid for it. On real estate,  I am more than happy to work with wholesalers, and have bought many deals from wholesalers.  If there are young men with the ability to drive around all day, find run down properties, speak with the home owner and negotiate a property getting it under contract and getting that contract to me - than I am more than happy to pay their commission so they can spend 8 hours a day building a portfolio for my and other investors review. 

    "Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. "  : I can't exactly speak to what you're trying to say here, I have paid for plenty of courses, paid for plenty of books and seminars. At each of these purchases I was able to gain knowledge and networking and access to new opportunities. Some were duds and I had felt mislead, but that is the price you pay for knowledge in a dynamic and changing information driven world we live in. Eventually you get good at sussing out what's worth buying before you pay. 

    "And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays?"  That's good, I am proud to see you're grandson is smart enough to see how the world is changing.  Would you suggest he should he spend four years at a college with the slim chance that might turn into working a company job, competing with H1B applicants for employment, to eventually 20 years later of saving to maybe flip burgers at his own establishment in competition with Mcdonalds?  Maybe he spends 20 years working for a corporation then should he build a machine shop in your garage and start a tool company and compete with Milwaukee Tools? Should he sacrifice 2 or 3 decades of his life in the hopes that maybe, someday, he might "make it" on his own? He has already the advanced knowledge that that worldview your generation was sold on is a lie. The 'system' is not there in anyway to benefit the common working class man and there is no way in hell he alone is going to take on the likes of private equity, corporations, hedge funds - there is no way he is going to out compete indians or the Chinese in the labor market. He has at his disposal a computer (capital) and is using it as a means of economic generation (labor)  which is smart and he has direct access to a community of millions of people by using YouTube (entrepreneurship ability) so your grandson who you scoff at, at his young age, already is understanding the key components to any economic endeavor and he probably learned it from listening to podcasts or watching other content creators. 

    It is normal to admit to the alienation you may feel to the dynamic and changing marketplace especially if you have spent decades mastering older more traditional frameworks which are no longer relevant. Economic incentives have shifted away from the skills and ethics you were most likely raised with, and your grandson is adopting what is modern and required for future success. Also, in a world driven by conglomerates and private equity the idea he is going to create anything of value in his garage(your garage since the likelihood of him owning a home without family help is slim) , like a Model-T, are highly unlikely or out right restricted by the government as our world today is also over regulated or over licensed. If he is able to create anything on his own it most likely will be in tech, mirror a 'huckster valueless app' and more than likely the creation will be assisted by AI. If it found any success, its likely he would sell it to a major tech company like Google, Facebook, etc only after he had 'huckstered' the app to early adopters. 

    "Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads." What was the interest rate on the majority of your portfolio while you did this? Was it pre-2008? This is a place where I can slightly agree with you. The rules are changing but hard work, integrity, and consistency are still virtues that will make all the difference. Although, it will also take the understanding of being your own brand, social media, marketing, sales, AI - the workload has definitely changed. Access to information has changed. I'd challenge you with a Darwinian question and ask if you are putting in the hard work at adapting to a new landscape? what will happen if you don't? Chances are you probably don't have to if you've acquired a massive rental portfolio when loans were at 3% and required no more than a pulse to get them.

    "I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value." Consumerism has been a driving force behind the economy since you were born, and it continues to shape the younger generation’s spending and business habits. What’s changed is the form. it takes new technologies, trends, and marketing strategies. so it might feel more chaotic or superficial than it did before. In real estate, e-commerce, whatever.. there is, regardless of the age, always going to be snakeoil sales men and Tupperware salesman, or now the modern e-course motivational salesman like Wes Watson or Andrew Tate.

    Ultimately, the economy and the ways people create value have changed dramatically over the decades. While the fundamentals of hard work, integrity, and consistency remain timeless, the tools, platforms, and strategies required to succeed today are very different from what many may have learned in previous decades. 

    Understanding and adapting to these shifts is key—not just to survive, but to thrive. There is an easier access to information, so gatekeeping isn't working anymore. think of apps like Zillow or  "Listing spark" that are replacing real estate agents. There is AI now which can create campaigns, content, websites, CRM's so getting a product to market is a lot faster, easier and cheaper than it ever has been before.  Social Media has allowed for faster and easier networking capabilities.  Information technologies, AI, social media, these are an extra layer added on top of timeless skills like honor, dependability, integrity and entrepreneurship prowess. 

    You can choose to be like the dodo or the crocodile. I wish you the best.

    • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Jacob Thorpe:

      In response to your post 

      "I am half a decade away from 60" :  Try talking to younger men about their job/dating/life prospects in this new American landscape which has changed dramatically since you were in your earlier 20's and 30's.  You might find an answer to a lot of your questions/thoughts.  I'd recommend truly listening to them before telling them to pull themselves up by their boot straps. For us, walking into an office, making eye contact, and a firm handshake - isn't at all what it takes to find quality employment for a lot of younger guys. 

      "I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value." Can you describe 'real value'? What is the 'real value' of the American dollar since Nixon ended the gold standard - it is a fiat currency not backed by anything? Is/was their any value in Toys'R us that made childrens toys? Has there been any value by shipping manufacturing overseas, only to be sold on consumerism? I find more value from crypto, wholsalers and podcasts than I do from Black rock and vanguard or the stock market. 

      "Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket" : I feel as though this was made in poor taste.  I know plenty of people working as wholsalers, podcasters, game developers, YouTubers etc and I am glad they're able to do what they do and be paid for it. On real estate,  I am more than happy to work with wholesalers, and have bought many deals from wholesalers.  If there are young men with the ability to drive around all day, find run down properties, speak with the home owner and negotiate a property getting it under contract and getting that contract to me - than I am more than happy to pay their commission so they can spend 8 hours a day building a portfolio for my and other investors review. 

      "Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. "  : I can't exactly speak to what you're trying to say here, I have paid for plenty of courses, paid for plenty of books and seminars. At each of these purchases I was able to gain knowledge and networking and access to new opportunities. Some were duds and I had felt mislead, but that is the price you pay for knowledge in a dynamic and changing information driven world we live in. Eventually you get good at sussing out what's worth buying before you pay. 

      "And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays?"  That's good, I am proud to see you're grandson is smart enough to see how the world is changing.  Would you suggest he should he spend four years at a college with the slim chance that might turn into working a company job, competing with H1B applicants for employment, to eventually 20 years later of saving to maybe flip burgers at his own establishment in competition with Mcdonalds?  Maybe he spends 20 years working for a corporation then should he build a machine shop in your garage and start a tool company and compete with Milwaukee Tools? Should he sacrifice 2 or 3 decades of his life in the hopes that maybe, someday, he might "make it" on his own? He has already the advanced knowledge that that worldview your generation was sold on is a lie. The 'system' is not there in anyway to benefit the common working class man and there is no way in hell he alone is going to take on the likes of private equity, corporations, hedge funds - there is no way he is going to out compete indians or the Chinese in the labor market. He has at his disposal a computer (capital) and is using it as a means of economic generation (labor)  which is smart and he has direct access to a community of millions of people by using YouTube (entrepreneurship ability) so your grandson who you scoff at, at his young age, already is understanding the key components to any economic endeavor and he probably learned it from listening to podcasts or watching other content creators. 

      It is normal to admit to the alienation you may feel to the dynamic and changing marketplace especially if you have spent decades mastering older more traditional frameworks which are no longer relevant. Economic incentives have shifted away from the skills and ethics you were most likely raised with, and your grandson is adopting what is modern and required for future success. Also, in a world driven by conglomerates and private equity the idea he is going to create anything of value in his garage(your garage since the likelihood of him owning a home without family help is slim) , like a Model-T, are highly unlikely or out right restricted by the government as our world today is also over regulated or over licensed. If he is able to create anything on his own it most likely will be in tech, mirror a 'huckster valueless app' and more than likely the creation will be assisted by AI. If it found any success, its likely he would sell it to a major tech company like Google, Facebook, etc only after he had 'huckstered' the app to early adopters. 

      "Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads." What was the interest rate on the majority of your portfolio while you did this? Was it pre-2008? This is a place where I can slightly agree with you. The rules are changing but hard work, integrity, and consistency are still virtues that will make all the difference. Although, it will also take the understanding of being your own brand, social media, marketing, sales, AI - the workload has definitely changed. Access to information has changed. I'd challenge you with a Darwinian question and ask if you are putting in the hard work at adapting to a new landscape? what will happen if you don't? Chances are you probably don't have to if you've acquired a massive rental portfolio when loans were at 3% and required no more than a pulse to get them.

      "I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value." Consumerism has been a driving force behind the economy since you were born, and it continues to shape the younger generation’s spending and business habits. What’s changed is the form. it takes new technologies, trends, and marketing strategies. so it might feel more chaotic or superficial than it did before. In real estate, e-commerce, whatever.. there is, regardless of the age, always going to be snakeoil sales men and Tupperware salesman, or now the modern e-course motivational salesman like Wes Watson or Andrew Tate.

      Ultimately, the economy and the ways people create value have changed dramatically over the decades. While the fundamentals of hard work, integrity, and consistency remain timeless, the tools, platforms, and strategies required to succeed today are very different from what many may have learned in previous decades. 

      Understanding and adapting to these shifts is key—not just to survive, but to thrive. There is an easier access to information, so gatekeeping isn't working anymore. think of apps like Zillow or  "Listing spark" that are replacing real estate agents. There is AI now which can create campaigns, content, websites, CRM's so getting a product to market is a lot faster, easier and cheaper than it ever has been before.  Social Media has allowed for faster and easier networking capabilities.  Information technologies, AI, social media, these are an extra layer added on top of timeless skills like honor, dependability, integrity and entrepreneurship prowess. 

      You can choose to be like the dodo or the crocodile. I wish you the best.


      This is a fairly well-written and thoughtful response. It's also a little combative in my opinion and this is why most of us hate the BP forums. He wasn't talking to you, but you take offense like he was. Again, there are a lot of fair points in what you wrote, but it's like you were personally offended. Why?

      Zillow will never replace real estate agents. AI will never replace ownership and true creativity. Social media is the reason for your point in part one. If young men, in general, would spend less time playing video games and consuming content that makes them feel special, they might be able to get back to building relationships in business and in life.

      Your interest rate comments make no sense. For most of us in our fifties, we've been through rates in the teens and still invested. The rates now are not a hindrance, they are an opportunity because in other countries there is no such thing as a 30-year mortgage. The modern short-term mindset is a hindrance.

      I really want to know what made you respond in such depth and why you took such offense to a post by someone you don't know, in a forum you have no obligation to read.

    • Lender · Lake Geneva WI, USA · Member since 2023 · 141 posts · 72 votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Jonathan Greene:
      Quote from @Jacob Thorpe:

      In response to your post 

      "I am half a decade away from 60" :  Try talking to younger men about their job/dating/life prospects in this new American landscape which has changed dramatically since you were in your earlier 20's and 30's.  You might find an answer to a lot of your questions/thoughts.  I'd recommend truly listening to them before telling them to pull themselves up by their boot straps. For us, walking into an office, making eye contact, and a firm handshake - isn't at all what it takes to find quality employment for a lot of younger guys. 

      "I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value." Can you describe 'real value'? What is the 'real value' of the American dollar since Nixon ended the gold standard - it is a fiat currency not backed by anything? Is/was their any value in Toys'R us that made childrens toys? Has there been any value by shipping manufacturing overseas, only to be sold on consumerism? I find more value from crypto, wholsalers and podcasts than I do from Black rock and vanguard or the stock market. 

      "Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket" : I feel as though this was made in poor taste.  I know plenty of people working as wholsalers, podcasters, game developers, YouTubers etc and I am glad they're able to do what they do and be paid for it. On real estate,  I am more than happy to work with wholesalers, and have bought many deals from wholesalers.  If there are young men with the ability to drive around all day, find run down properties, speak with the home owner and negotiate a property getting it under contract and getting that contract to me - than I am more than happy to pay their commission so they can spend 8 hours a day building a portfolio for my and other investors review. 

      "Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. "  : I can't exactly speak to what you're trying to say here, I have paid for plenty of courses, paid for plenty of books and seminars. At each of these purchases I was able to gain knowledge and networking and access to new opportunities. Some were duds and I had felt mislead, but that is the price you pay for knowledge in a dynamic and changing information driven world we live in. Eventually you get good at sussing out what's worth buying before you pay. 

      "And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays?"  That's good, I am proud to see you're grandson is smart enough to see how the world is changing.  Would you suggest he should he spend four years at a college with the slim chance that might turn into working a company job, competing with H1B applicants for employment, to eventually 20 years later of saving to maybe flip burgers at his own establishment in competition with Mcdonalds?  Maybe he spends 20 years working for a corporation then should he build a machine shop in your garage and start a tool company and compete with Milwaukee Tools? Should he sacrifice 2 or 3 decades of his life in the hopes that maybe, someday, he might "make it" on his own? He has already the advanced knowledge that that worldview your generation was sold on is a lie. The 'system' is not there in anyway to benefit the common working class man and there is no way in hell he alone is going to take on the likes of private equity, corporations, hedge funds - there is no way he is going to out compete indians or the Chinese in the labor market. He has at his disposal a computer (capital) and is using it as a means of economic generation (labor)  which is smart and he has direct access to a community of millions of people by using YouTube (entrepreneurship ability) so your grandson who you scoff at, at his young age, already is understanding the key components to any economic endeavor and he probably learned it from listening to podcasts or watching other content creators. 

      It is normal to admit to the alienation you may feel to the dynamic and changing marketplace especially if you have spent decades mastering older more traditional frameworks which are no longer relevant. Economic incentives have shifted away from the skills and ethics you were most likely raised with, and your grandson is adopting what is modern and required for future success. Also, in a world driven by conglomerates and private equity the idea he is going to create anything of value in his garage(your garage since the likelihood of him owning a home without family help is slim) , like a Model-T, are highly unlikely or out right restricted by the government as our world today is also over regulated or over licensed. If he is able to create anything on his own it most likely will be in tech, mirror a 'huckster valueless app' and more than likely the creation will be assisted by AI. If it found any success, its likely he would sell it to a major tech company like Google, Facebook, etc only after he had 'huckstered' the app to early adopters. 

      "Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads." What was the interest rate on the majority of your portfolio while you did this? Was it pre-2008? This is a place where I can slightly agree with you. The rules are changing but hard work, integrity, and consistency are still virtues that will make all the difference. Although, it will also take the understanding of being your own brand, social media, marketing, sales, AI - the workload has definitely changed. Access to information has changed. I'd challenge you with a Darwinian question and ask if you are putting in the hard work at adapting to a new landscape? what will happen if you don't? Chances are you probably don't have to if you've acquired a massive rental portfolio when loans were at 3% and required no more than a pulse to get them.

      "I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value." Consumerism has been a driving force behind the economy since you were born, and it continues to shape the younger generation’s spending and business habits. What’s changed is the form. it takes new technologies, trends, and marketing strategies. so it might feel more chaotic or superficial than it did before. In real estate, e-commerce, whatever.. there is, regardless of the age, always going to be snakeoil sales men and Tupperware salesman, or now the modern e-course motivational salesman like Wes Watson or Andrew Tate.

      Ultimately, the economy and the ways people create value have changed dramatically over the decades. While the fundamentals of hard work, integrity, and consistency remain timeless, the tools, platforms, and strategies required to succeed today are very different from what many may have learned in previous decades. 

      Understanding and adapting to these shifts is key—not just to survive, but to thrive. There is an easier access to information, so gatekeeping isn't working anymore. think of apps like Zillow or  "Listing spark" that are replacing real estate agents. There is AI now which can create campaigns, content, websites, CRM's so getting a product to market is a lot faster, easier and cheaper than it ever has been before.  Social Media has allowed for faster and easier networking capabilities.  Information technologies, AI, social media, these are an extra layer added on top of timeless skills like honor, dependability, integrity and entrepreneurship prowess. 

      You can choose to be like the dodo or the crocodile. I wish you the best.


      This is a fairly well-written and thoughtful response. It's also a little combative in my opinion and this is why most of us hate the BP forums. He wasn't talking to you, but you take offense like he was. Again, there are a lot of fair points in what you wrote, but it's like you were personally offended. Why?

      Zillow will never replace real estate agents. AI will never replace ownership and true creativity. Social media is the reason for your point in part one. If young men, in general, would spend less time playing video games and consuming content that makes them feel special, they might be able to get back to building relationships in business and in life.

      Your interest rate comments make no sense. For most of us in our fifties, we've been through rates in the teens and still invested. The rates now are not a hindrance, they are an opportunity because in other countries there is no such thing as a 30-year mortgage. The modern short-term mindset is a hindrance.

      I really want to know what made you respond in such depth and why you took such offense to a post by someone you don't know, in a forum you have no obligation to read.


       Thank you for actually reading my post.  The original post seemed to be nostalgic which is fine but I did want to shed some light on the changing of the times. 

      I am a broker so literally I am a middle man, and almost all of my education has came from podcasts, books and YouTube/e-courses.  Not just for real estate but also for computer programming when I was in college.

      This was a matter of practicality as I had no other way to succeed.  As Don had mentioned, this is what guys like myself have to do until we find great financial success in life.  I don't think this cheapens me as a person or cheapens what I provide because I had to go about my life on different terms.  I have tried to get jobs around me with lenders and banks and they simply didn't hire me. I could go a bit into detail as to what my suspicions are but the men who look like me and are from my social / economic class have experienced frustrations in hiring across the board not just in finance. Especially in the tech world. The people I know in Lake Geneva who were born to wealthy parents though are able to walk in and get hired based on their parents connections.  Punching up I am met with road blocks.  That's okay it is to be expected and I don't care but to be perceived as a huckster before examining what I can provide doesn't feel right.

      I became a broker because I didn't have to pass any hiring quotas, I didn't have to get the "ok" from a bank or corporation, I can generate my own business without anyone telling me "no you cant participate" or "no you cant do that".  I learned everything I have from YouTube because it was free, and courses were relatively cheap.  Even the podcast bro or the social media guru knows someone who knows someone and by utilizing social media I was able to cast a broad net and talk to lots of different people and soak up as much knowledge as possible. 

      I have not been able to succeed using traditional methods, so when reading this post and feeling described as a fly by night huckster who hasn't earned his wings, well maybe I still have to earn my wings, but I am doing all that is within my control and my ability. Maybe after a few years of flipping and building I can get into the country club and get along well with the good ol boys but until then I may only do what I may do within my control and my ability and to have the perception of being a huckster devalues what I bring to the table based solely on how I got my start or what tech I utilize and that feels wrong. What should be examined is what I can provide and what I can do for people.  Not to mention that for me to succeed not only do I have to do the grind like putting in the man hours and , hard work(which is no problem) but I also have to learn a far more cerebral set of rules following AI, social media, self marketing etc. There is a different playbook now to succeed. The game has changed completely and to be on the cutting edge there is nobody you can learn from you just have to do it.  It makes it twice as hard to succeed when being looked down at from guys on top.

    • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Jacob Thorpe:
      Quote from @Jonathan Greene:
      Quote from @Jacob Thorpe:

      In response to your post 

      "I am half a decade away from 60" :  Try talking to younger men about their job/dating/life prospects in this new American landscape which has changed dramatically since you were in your earlier 20's and 30's.  You might find an answer to a lot of your questions/thoughts.  I'd recommend truly listening to them before telling them to pull themselves up by their boot straps. For us, walking into an office, making eye contact, and a firm handshake - isn't at all what it takes to find quality employment for a lot of younger guys. 

      "I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value." Can you describe 'real value'? What is the 'real value' of the American dollar since Nixon ended the gold standard - it is a fiat currency not backed by anything? Is/was their any value in Toys'R us that made childrens toys? Has there been any value by shipping manufacturing overseas, only to be sold on consumerism? I find more value from crypto, wholsalers and podcasts than I do from Black rock and vanguard or the stock market. 

      "Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket" : I feel as though this was made in poor taste.  I know plenty of people working as wholsalers, podcasters, game developers, YouTubers etc and I am glad they're able to do what they do and be paid for it. On real estate,  I am more than happy to work with wholesalers, and have bought many deals from wholesalers.  If there are young men with the ability to drive around all day, find run down properties, speak with the home owner and negotiate a property getting it under contract and getting that contract to me - than I am more than happy to pay their commission so they can spend 8 hours a day building a portfolio for my and other investors review. 

      "Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. "  : I can't exactly speak to what you're trying to say here, I have paid for plenty of courses, paid for plenty of books and seminars. At each of these purchases I was able to gain knowledge and networking and access to new opportunities. Some were duds and I had felt mislead, but that is the price you pay for knowledge in a dynamic and changing information driven world we live in. Eventually you get good at sussing out what's worth buying before you pay. 

      "And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays?"  That's good, I am proud to see you're grandson is smart enough to see how the world is changing.  Would you suggest he should he spend four years at a college with the slim chance that might turn into working a company job, competing with H1B applicants for employment, to eventually 20 years later of saving to maybe flip burgers at his own establishment in competition with Mcdonalds?  Maybe he spends 20 years working for a corporation then should he build a machine shop in your garage and start a tool company and compete with Milwaukee Tools? Should he sacrifice 2 or 3 decades of his life in the hopes that maybe, someday, he might "make it" on his own? He has already the advanced knowledge that that worldview your generation was sold on is a lie. The 'system' is not there in anyway to benefit the common working class man and there is no way in hell he alone is going to take on the likes of private equity, corporations, hedge funds - there is no way he is going to out compete indians or the Chinese in the labor market. He has at his disposal a computer (capital) and is using it as a means of economic generation (labor)  which is smart and he has direct access to a community of millions of people by using YouTube (entrepreneurship ability) so your grandson who you scoff at, at his young age, already is understanding the key components to any economic endeavor and he probably learned it from listening to podcasts or watching other content creators. 

      It is normal to admit to the alienation you may feel to the dynamic and changing marketplace especially if you have spent decades mastering older more traditional frameworks which are no longer relevant. Economic incentives have shifted away from the skills and ethics you were most likely raised with, and your grandson is adopting what is modern and required for future success. Also, in a world driven by conglomerates and private equity the idea he is going to create anything of value in his garage(your garage since the likelihood of him owning a home without family help is slim) , like a Model-T, are highly unlikely or out right restricted by the government as our world today is also over regulated or over licensed. If he is able to create anything on his own it most likely will be in tech, mirror a 'huckster valueless app' and more than likely the creation will be assisted by AI. If it found any success, its likely he would sell it to a major tech company like Google, Facebook, etc only after he had 'huckstered' the app to early adopters. 

      "Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads." What was the interest rate on the majority of your portfolio while you did this? Was it pre-2008? This is a place where I can slightly agree with you. The rules are changing but hard work, integrity, and consistency are still virtues that will make all the difference. Although, it will also take the understanding of being your own brand, social media, marketing, sales, AI - the workload has definitely changed. Access to information has changed. I'd challenge you with a Darwinian question and ask if you are putting in the hard work at adapting to a new landscape? what will happen if you don't? Chances are you probably don't have to if you've acquired a massive rental portfolio when loans were at 3% and required no more than a pulse to get them.

      "I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value." Consumerism has been a driving force behind the economy since you were born, and it continues to shape the younger generation’s spending and business habits. What’s changed is the form. it takes new technologies, trends, and marketing strategies. so it might feel more chaotic or superficial than it did before. In real estate, e-commerce, whatever.. there is, regardless of the age, always going to be snakeoil sales men and Tupperware salesman, or now the modern e-course motivational salesman like Wes Watson or Andrew Tate.

      Ultimately, the economy and the ways people create value have changed dramatically over the decades. While the fundamentals of hard work, integrity, and consistency remain timeless, the tools, platforms, and strategies required to succeed today are very different from what many may have learned in previous decades. 

      Understanding and adapting to these shifts is key—not just to survive, but to thrive. There is an easier access to information, so gatekeeping isn't working anymore. think of apps like Zillow or  "Listing spark" that are replacing real estate agents. There is AI now which can create campaigns, content, websites, CRM's so getting a product to market is a lot faster, easier and cheaper than it ever has been before.  Social Media has allowed for faster and easier networking capabilities.  Information technologies, AI, social media, these are an extra layer added on top of timeless skills like honor, dependability, integrity and entrepreneurship prowess. 

      You can choose to be like the dodo or the crocodile. I wish you the best.


      This is a fairly well-written and thoughtful response. It's also a little combative in my opinion and this is why most of us hate the BP forums. He wasn't talking to you, but you take offense like he was. Again, there are a lot of fair points in what you wrote, but it's like you were personally offended. Why?

      Zillow will never replace real estate agents. AI will never replace ownership and true creativity. Social media is the reason for your point in part one. If young men, in general, would spend less time playing video games and consuming content that makes them feel special, they might be able to get back to building relationships in business and in life.

      Your interest rate comments make no sense. For most of us in our fifties, we've been through rates in the teens and still invested. The rates now are not a hindrance, they are an opportunity because in other countries there is no such thing as a 30-year mortgage. The modern short-term mindset is a hindrance.

      I really want to know what made you respond in such depth and why you took such offense to a post by someone you don't know, in a forum you have no obligation to read.


       Thank you for actually reading my post.  The original post seemed to be nostalgic which is fine but I did want to shed some light on the changing of the times. 

      I am a broker so literally I am a middle man, and almost all of my education has came from podcasts, books and YouTube/e-courses.  Not just for real estate but also for computer programming when I was in college.

      This was a matter of practicality as I had no other way to succeed.  As Don had mentioned, this is what guys like myself have to do until we find great financial success in life.  I don't think this cheapens me as a person or cheapens what I provide because I had to go about my life on different terms.  I have tried to get jobs around me with lenders and banks and they simply didn't hire me. I could go a bit into detail as to what my suspicions are but the men who look like me and are from my social / economic class have experienced frustrations in hiring across the board not just in finance. Especially in the tech world. The people I know in Lake Geneva who were born to wealthy parents though are able to walk in and get hired based on their parents connections.  Punching up I am met with road blocks.  That's okay it is to be expected and I don't care but to be perceived as a huckster before examining what I can provide doesn't feel right.

      I became a broker because I didn't have to pass any hiring quotas, I didn't have to get the "ok" from a bank or corporation, I can generate my own business without anyone telling me "no you cant participate" or "no you cant do that".  I learned everything I have from YouTube because it was free, and courses were relatively cheap.  Even the podcast bro or the social media guru knows someone who knows someone and by utilizing social media I was able to cast a broad net and talk to lots of different people and soak up as much knowledge as possible. 

      I have not been able to succeed using traditional methods, so when reading this post and feeling described as a fly by night huckster who hasn't earned his wings, well maybe I still have to earn my wings, but I am doing all that is within my control and my ability. Maybe after a few years of flipping and building I can get into the country club and get along well with the good ol boys but until then I may only do what I may do within my control and my ability and to have the perception of being a huckster devalues what I bring to the table based solely on how I got my start or what tech I utilize and that feels wrong. What should be examined is what I can provide and what I can do for people.  Not to mention that for me to succeed not only do I have to do the grind like putting in the man hours and , hard work(which is no problem) but I also have to learn a far more cerebral set of rules following AI, social media, self marketing etc. There is a different playbook now to succeed. The game has changed completely and to be on the cutting edge there is nobody you can learn from you just have to do it.  It makes it twice as hard to succeed when being looked down at from guys on top.


      That is actually a great response. It also makes you NOT a reason we hate the forums because you are responding with a balanced take, albeit still a bit protective. The only thing I would reply to what you wrote, and what I think will help you with what might possibly be a valid chip on your shoulder, is that you say you were being described as a huckster, but JD doesn't know you at all to my knowledge.

      Part of what I have been saying on here for years is that responders are taking everything as a personal assault on them, but when they do, it's because of an issue they are having with themselves. Your points on hiring are valid and although some would say woe is me, you still have a chance, I actually understand it as a parent of two adults. It's not easy out there. Most job applications sent in by 24-30 years olds now don't even get a response of any kind.

      I don't think what you've done to start your own ladder seems hucksterish unless you have a class or mastermind without the experience or social channels directing people to buy things that you have no business really selling. If you are helping people, but getting in front of them buy being out there on social, I find that smart. I don't think Gary V is a huckster, but I do think Grant Cardone is, if that helps for reference. And even with that, I can read a Grant Cardone book and find things that will help me.

      Almost everything everyone does now is just recycled material from the past as a lot of others were saying. MLM is the same as it ever was. Real estate brokerages are absolutely inundated with MLM because of downlines now (Hi eXp and Real, both of who I worked for). Instead of playing the game, I opened my own independent brokerage with no MLM, no downlines, and no teams. I stopped playing the game and took ownership. 

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11mo
    Quote from @JD Martin:

    I have been thinking about this for a while, and I was listening to a podcast tonight while I was in the shower and it just kind of brought it around to this thread. 

    Today, it seems to me, at least in the US, there is a greater proportion of "huckster-ism" in our economy and in the ambitions of the population than in any time that I can remember (I'm half a decade from 60) in my life. I see and hear signs of this everywhere I look, and I like to think it's not just because I'm looking for it.

    I'm no pollyanna. I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value. But today I see more of this than I can ever remember in the past, and I see it everywhere. Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket. Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. 

    And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays? 

    Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads. We created value by rehabilitating dilapidated housing and renting it out to people in need of quality homes to rent at reasonable prices. It wasn't rocket science. When I was a kid people created businesses by purchasing property and building homes, or renting out space and creating a nice restaurant, things like that. Hucksterism was Amway and Tupperware parties, but everyone knew it. Bringing this back to the podcast, the entire thing consisted of a guest telling people to figure out ways to sell repackaged information to people and generate advertising dollars, which the podcast itself was generating by appealing to people's get rich quick bias. 

    I'm no Luudite, and I know there's still plenty of things of value being created out there (even if I dislike some of it like AI), but I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value. 

    I'm going to link some people here because I know they'll have smart things to say. And generate some responses here as well. Hey, maybe I can get paid per click from this thread! 😂

    @Russell Brazil @Jay Hinrichs @James Wise @Chris Seveney @Don Konipol @James Hamling @Bruce Woodruff @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene @Shiloh Lundahl @Steve Vaughan  and if I left you off this list it might be because I just couldn't get you tagged properly :)

    Unfortunately the glitz and glamour is what sells, especially training programs. No one wants to hear that you are going to have to work 60 hours a week to get your business built and once its built it will run itself.  While at times I sit here and shake my head, I have always been a "hustle guy" from when I was a kid also running out full speed even a groundball I hit back to the pitcher (because that is what I was taught). 

    People want the easy way out, but in that same token those who work their tails off can have significant benefit and advantage over this. For example I will use myself where we buy defaulted debt and it is a lot of work to manage. Most do not want to do what we do, as its like cleaning portajohns. But we see tremendous opportunities because many other competitors never even open the proverbial portajohn door because so many times it has been a taco bell explosion that they also miss a lot of the brand new/clean and shiny opportunities because they did not want to do the work to even see what they had.

    For those in real estate i ask you, how many who take the easy road - such as wholesaling off MLS have been able to retire off wholesaling? How many airbnb arbitrage people? Yes there are probably a few, but there are over 1M people subscribed to this forum and my guess is it is less than 100 (that is probably very high number too).

    Then look at who was tagged in this post - people who are active and doing what they say they are doing and not taking shortcuts. I would bet everyone named in that list could buy everyone a very nice dinner several times over if you know what i mean.

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    11mo
    Quote from @JD Martin:

    I have been thinking about this for a while, and I was listening to a podcast tonight while I was in the shower and it just kind of brought it around to this thread. 

    Today, it seems to me, at least in the US, there is a greater proportion of "huckster-ism" in our economy and in the ambitions of the population than in any time that I can remember (I'm half a decade from 60) in my life. I see and hear signs of this everywhere I look, and I like to think it's not just because I'm looking for it.

    I'm no pollyanna. I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value. But today I see more of this than I can ever remember in the past, and I see it everywhere. Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket. Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. 

    And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays? 

    Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads. We created value by rehabilitating dilapidated housing and renting it out to people in need of quality homes to rent at reasonable prices. It wasn't rocket science. When I was a kid people created businesses by purchasing property and building homes, or renting out space and creating a nice restaurant, things like that. Hucksterism was Amway and Tupperware parties, but everyone knew it. Bringing this back to the podcast, the entire thing consisted of a guest telling people to figure out ways to sell repackaged information to people and generate advertising dollars, which the podcast itself was generating by appealing to people's get rich quick bias. 

    I'm no Luudite, and I know there's still plenty of things of value being created out there (even if I dislike some of it like AI), but I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value. 

    I'm going to link some people here because I know they'll have smart things to say. And generate some responses here as well. Hey, maybe I can get paid per click from this thread! 😂

    @Russell Brazil @Jay Hinrichs @James Wise @Chris Seveney @Don Konipol @James Hamling @Bruce Woodruff @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene @Shiloh Lundahl @Steve Vaughan  and if I left you off this list it might be because I just couldn't get you tagged properly :)


     With technology today, everyone has access to cameras and distribution so they can get their message out to the masses. In years past, there was a massive barrier to entry. To get your message out, you needed to be in the paper or have a TV studio work on it. Today you have both at your fingertips. So, the Huckster economy was always there, it was just more concentrated at the top.

  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    11mo

    I agree with everything you said. People like to call us boomers for not "understanding", but the truth is that this generation doesn't understand how short their rope is. AI is taking their jobs and that is a real threat, but that makes it all that much more important to hone a specific skillset that AI can't duplicate, and to own that skillset and turn it into a business at some point. Ownership.

    I can tell this will be a diatribe forum where most of us can't even read the long soliloquies of each other, but there will be some gems in here. I think your points are highlighted in real estate investing, especially with gurus and speakers who are more akin to one-hit wonders. Look at the many stories that are built on a foundation of failure. I am not talking about learning failure, I am talking about 50m loss failure. That's not who I want coaching me.

    There's a lot of repositioning going on by way of social media and people are falling for it. Education is falling by the wayside in so many ways. Elementary and middle school aren't teaching kids about real life, high schools don't teach them about money, they let them have their phones in school, and now AI is taking over college "learning." And we wonder why everyone wants a quick road to fame or money. It's delusional and a product of short-term thinking. If you can be swayed by a 10-second TikTok, you aren't working a job and slowly getting pay raises until you are 30. You are chasing FIRE irrationally with a backpack, a blanket, and a dream.

    Arbitrage is a perfect example of it all. Everyone is trying to arbitrage life. AI is arbitrage for the most part. But the thing is, you won't maintain success through arbitrage unless you turn the arbitrage into ownership. People may think Codie Sanchez is one of those gurus, and surely there is a lot of fluff around it, but if you listen to her message, it's all about ownership. If you don't find ownership in your life and business, success is going to be hard to find.

    Thanks, @JD Martin, for posting something of value here.

  • Charles ClarkBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2020 · 306 posts · 209 votes
    11mo

    @JD Martin

    Really well said and I couldn’t agree more. It does feel like the focus has shifted from building real value to chasing quick wins. The “make money fast” mindset is louder than ever, while the fundamentals hard work, patience, and creating something meaningful often get overlooked.

    That’s why hearing from investors who’ve built wealth the old-fashioned way, through real projects and real effort, is refreshing. Thanks for putting this into words it’s a great reminder of what sustainable success actually looks like.

    Raise the Standard RE LLC55 Reviews
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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    11mo

    Great responses so far - love seeing a good conversation develop!

    I may not have completely got my thoughts to paper (or screen, as it were) last night but that wouldn't be unusual :P , so to add to or possibly amend some of my post:

    1. Someone mentioned fiat currency or pegging to gold. That has nothing to do with value, as gold is just as arbitrary as a conduit of value as anything else, it just has a longer accepted history as use of currency and storage of wealth. At least in a room full of investors the idea of value creation ought to be obvious. A farmer who takes inert seeds and turns them into corn is creating value. The guy who moves the corn from the field to the market is creating value. The guy who comes up with packaged fertilizer to help the corn grow is creating value. The guy who marshalls financial resources that allows the farmer to buy the seed this spring with a promise to repay in the fall is creating value. The guy who stands next to the field of corn and takes his picture and proclaims how great he is because he can stand next to a field of corn is not creating value. 

    2. Someone mentioned that the dispersal (democratization perhaps?) of the tools of hucksterism from the few to the many is largely responsible. This makes a lot of sense to me. When everyone has access to a webcam and Youtube, the barriers to entry are so low and the (purported) riches so great that it probably has an oversized influence on how many people will actually attempt these routes. That's probably why wholesaling is such a popular question in the BP forums - no/low capital and no licensing. Easy entry point.

    3. Someone mentioned about not going to college or going traditional ways. I didn't say anything about that at all, though I think simply badmouthing college is a lazy cop-out. I teach adjunct graduate level courses at two major universities and I'll be the first one to say there's a large number of people that would be much better served in avenues outside of college - the idea that everyone should be going in order to "get a good job" is ridiculous. If I was hedging my bets today, with AI and other technology looming large, I would be doubling down on physical professions that also require knowledge - HVAC, for example. It's going to be awhile before a robot shows up to fix your AC system. That said, I've always noticed it's the people who didn't go to college that like to denigrate it as a waste of time. I've got a lot of years of education under my belt and I've never once thought "Gee, I wish I was less educated and didn't know as much". 

    4. I'm not personally too worried about the world passing me by. It passes everyone by - we all eventually die. I've already made "my fortune", so to speak, and I'm on the coasting ramp. My post was not really about me but about what I feel is an alarming trend going forward. When everyone starts to think that the way to riches is just "being famous for being famous" then no one will want to do the actual work it usually takes to get anything of value. 

    Thanks for the responses thus far!

    Skyline Properties
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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    11mo

    I think a lot of people are confusing rich vs. wealthy. Rich is what lottery winners become before they become poor or broke (see the new wholesaler who gets a 10k spread on their first deal and then starts trying to teach other people how to do it). Wealthy is a mindset based on financial foundation, and that differs depending on what a person needs, wants, and values. It's simple, model Warren Buffett if you want to be wealthy. Follow influencers and gurus, if you want to get rich (and then lose it all).

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    11mo
    Quote from @JD Martin:

    I have been thinking about this for a while, and I was listening to a podcast tonight while I was in the shower and it just kind of brought it around to this thread. 

    Today, it seems to me, at least in the US, there is a greater proportion of "huckster-ism" in our economy and in the ambitions of the population than in any time that I can remember (I'm half a decade from 60) in my life. I see and hear signs of this everywhere I look, and I like to think it's not just because I'm looking for it.

    I'm no pollyanna. I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value. But today I see more of this than I can ever remember in the past, and I see it everywhere. Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket. Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. 

    And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays? 

    Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads. We created value by rehabilitating dilapidated housing and renting it out to people in need of quality homes to rent at reasonable prices. It wasn't rocket science. When I was a kid people created businesses by purchasing property and building homes, or renting out space and creating a nice restaurant, things like that. Hucksterism was Amway and Tupperware parties, but everyone knew it. Bringing this back to the podcast, the entire thing consisted of a guest telling people to figure out ways to sell repackaged information to people and generate advertising dollars, which the podcast itself was generating by appealing to people's get rich quick bias. 

    I'm no Luudite, and I know there's still plenty of things of value being created out there (even if I dislike some of it like AI), but I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value. 

    I'm going to link some people here because I know they'll have smart things to say. And generate some responses here as well. Hey, maybe I can get paid per click from this thread! 😂

    @Russell Brazil @Jay Hinrichs @James Wise @Chris Seveney @Don Konipol @James Hamling @Bruce Woodruff @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene @Shiloh Lundahl @Steve Vaughan  and if I left you off this list it might be because I just couldn't get you tagged properly :)

    I see your post as having two main points - 1) the perception of increased 'hucksterism' and 2) the notion that the younger generation wants more for less (so to speak). 

    I disagree on point #1...I think there has always been the sales-pitch mentality....since the beginning of time. JT Barnum, Snake Oil in the Wild West, etc, etc...We are just in a new age of Hucksterism IMHO. But now the people have the ability to look up anything and everything, and see if there is truth behind the pitches. Problem now is....can we trust the source that we use on the internet to be true? Politically of course, the answer is no. But checking Amazon reviews to see if a product is any good is a good tool......I hope this addresses your point correctly.
    #2 - Yessir, there is an obvious (to me) new approach by younger people to want as much as possible for as little work as possible - not talking about everyone of course, but a lot of entitled, 'something for nothing' people out there.....

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11mo

    @JD Martin I think the term "Attention Economy" very aptly names things. 

    Which this terminology highlights not only what it is, but at what scale it's hit, that it's so prolific that were giving it a term, and that term includes "Economy".... In other words, HUGE. 

    Is it new? I don't think so. 

    Remember back when, the $5 Envelope "scam". Where there were all these ad's about if a person want's to get rich, send an envelope with $5 and they'd send back the "secret" of how to receive mail-box money. And those who did, received back a 1 page instruction to run an ad saying to find how to get rich, mail $5....... Lol. 

    Or how about late night infomercials? 

    Or the ad's in the back pages of assorted magazines, in classifieds etc.. 

    There has always been no shortage of the get-rich-quick schemes, trainings, "secrets". 

    All I see that's changed is the tools and the how's. 

    As for peoples desires to attain something levels above which they've ever known, well that's just human nature isn't it. And can we really blame people for desiring it to be as fast as possible, as struggle free, stress free as possible. 

    Ok, yes, people should have more common sense but is that truly their fault, or fault of those who were tasked with educating them? 

    It still blows my mind when I meet a person well into age who says they never learned how to swim. Where i come from that's like saying you never learned how to walk, or eat with a fork, it's basic necessary know-how for living. But I can't blame a 12yr old for not knowing how to swim, it's those tasked with it. 

    Now yes, at 30, 40 etc., it's a "why didn't you go out and learn it" but if raised in such a manner, it becomes operant conditioning. 

    "James, are you saying people get conditioned to be suckers? To be impulsive shopping fools?"

    Yes, yes I am! 

    Our entire system, top to bottom, first creates this. Next it facilitates it, placates to it, excuses it, EMPOWERS it. We are peer pressured in being empathetic toward stupidity too the extent of being brow-beat into empowering one to remain blissfully ignorant. 

    Society glorifies various iterations of moronic. 

    The 60's was the era or glorifying Engineers, Dr's, ingenuity and brilliance. People don't adore Elon because of his genius, they glorify the most bizarre borderline moronic things he does. Think, it's like Einstein being famous because he'd say "pull my finger" before he farts..... 

    What's changed is our acceptance of mediocrity, hell CHAMPIONING it in effort, and the tools to present and sell various cr#p to witless fools. 

    I don't mean to be brash but there is no way to be honest without it. Look, we've had front row seats to it here on BP, how many posted of that bonkers syndication who was promising ridiculous returns via owning Radio Shack and other DOA company titles..... And there all shocked not only when it goes to $0, but when they didn't get the Leprechaun astride Pegasus the Pig to deliver pot's-o-gold..... I mean come on, that's a supreme effort in ignorance to have invested into that. 

    Remember the Superman when Lex bought up the desert because he was gonna detonate the San Andreas fault to dump CA into the ocean making his property the new ocean front? THAT had 1,000X more legitimacy and leg's to it than freakin Radio Shack making a come back for God's sake. 

    When watched Idiocracy we laughed, because the notion of it was so ridiculous it was funny. And here we are, we are seeing how it can come to be, how one day people can be confused spraying crops with Brawndo is bad, "but it's got what plants crave"..... Incremental stupidity working to out stupid the stupid before it..... 

    People gotta be accountable for self. Build a system that removes self-accountability, it's an endless slide down of blaming corners for being sharp and what not. 

    ai is just a tool, no different than a hack saw. Same for the internet. Shure it's made thing easier, more access and cheaper to launch and promote the next snake-oil. But without people dumb enough to buy it, it wouldn't proliferate. 

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11mo

    I think there have always been people who wanted to get rich or famous via an easy means. Sports, entertainment, crime, etc. The Internet is now just another means for people to pursue pipe dreams like this.

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    11mo

    There's a saying that goes something like,"more money just makes you more of what you already are".

    The internet and social media is no different - people can post relatively anonymously and show who they really are.

    As several have pointed out, the get rich quick goals & schemes have always been there. Look up the original guy named "Ponzi" and the year he did it. You could go back further to the Dutch tulip craze - which has been most recently repeated with Crypto currencies.

    Looking at @Jay Hinrichs post about 10% of his agent being great, 10% being successful and the other 80% moving on, reminds me of the ol' 80/20 Rule. 20% of just about anything/anyone will make a difference, the other 80% will fail. 
    - That may now becoming the 90/10 Rule. 

    Human nature has NOT changed, the internet has just made it easier to be more of what humanity always has been - both good & bad.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11mo

    As long as we exist in a Resource based system, money will exist.  

    Money is just a token of exchange, to more easily, and universally, exchange resources. 

    Everything everybody does, were all just apes competing for resources. 

    As long as that paradigm exists of scarcity for resources, so will all the ugliness to gain such, like greed. 

    Greed + Scarcity = fertile ground for nefarious actions, from barely too blatantly. 

    Because our resource based system defines quality and experience of life, by ones quantity of resources. So naturally there is many who want MORE. 

    And for those left wanting, desperation of desire and lacking in how-to aquire, yup, the how-to that will come to some will be via the fringes of things, morally questionable or out right criminal. 

    So when will it all end? When can we all sing kumbaya together in perfect societal nirvana? 

    When resources are no longer scarce. Which is when money will have no value. 

    Why we do what we do would redefine. Maybe notoriety would become the new currency. But a society where all want to be Captain, who's going to be Janitor? 

    And the little detail of what the prevailing elite class would have to relinquish for this to pass. It presents an existential threat to their very existence, power and influence. My bet is they'd be willing to spend and expel everything to prevent it, because that's whats at stake for them, everything. 

    So what-do-ya-get? 

    This. A resource based system. Money. Experience of life dictated by such, and various actors playing out efforts to get theirs. 

    End of day, every ape wants a good life. Some are just willing to do more then others for it. 

    The tools and the how will change but end of day, truly nothing changes, just details of the iterations.

  • Member since 2025 · 71 posts · 27 votes
    11mo
    Quote from @JD Martin:

    I have been thinking about this for a while, and I was listening to a podcast tonight while I was in the shower and it just kind of brought it around to this thread. 

    Today, it seems to me, at least in the US, there is a greater proportion of "huckster-ism" in our economy and in the ambitions of the population than in any time that I can remember (I'm half a decade from 60) in my life. I see and hear signs of this everywhere I look, and I like to think it's not just because I'm looking for it.

    I'm no pollyanna. I know in any economic system, especially a capitalistic one, there will always be some proportion of people & businesses that don't deal or create anything of any real value. But today I see more of this than I can ever remember in the past, and I see it everywhere. Multitudes of people on BP looking to become rich on real estate by "wholesaling" or "rental arbitrage", essentially folks with no money or assets looking to punch their golden ticket. Dubious, or no value, real estate training courses, books, seminars, etc by people who often have less experience than the people they're "teaching". Syndications that hawk unreasonable returns and unbelievable risks while raking in chunks of fees for the syndicators, sometimes people who have almost no experience or knowledge in the products they're selling. 

    And that's just what I see on BP. I see it everywhere. I have a grandson who aspires to make his fortune as an "influencer". Making money by getting people to follow his channel, where the only real monetization is due to the fact that legitimate businesses are willing to pay advertising money to place ads where eyeballs will see them. A lot of his friends think that getting a "real job" or creating a "real business" is for chumps. Why would you want to work a real job and save your money when you can do stupid stuff on Youtube, hawk junk products and try to get free AirBnb stays? 

    Today it seems to me that everyone wants to make their money by being some kind of middleman, syphoning money off the interface. When I tell people about the hard work and long hours it took to rehab all the houses in our portfolio, they look at me like I have 3 heads. We created value by rehabilitating dilapidated housing and renting it out to people in need of quality homes to rent at reasonable prices. It wasn't rocket science. When I was a kid people created businesses by purchasing property and building homes, or renting out space and creating a nice restaurant, things like that. Hucksterism was Amway and Tupperware parties, but everyone knew it. Bringing this back to the podcast, the entire thing consisted of a guest telling people to figure out ways to sell repackaged information to people and generate advertising dollars, which the podcast itself was generating by appealing to people's get rich quick bias. 

    I'm no Luudite, and I know there's still plenty of things of value being created out there (even if I dislike some of it like AI), but I just find it disturbing to think that a lot of economic activity is just selling nonsense to each other rather than creating products or services of real value. 

    I'm going to link some people here because I know they'll have smart things to say. And generate some responses here as well. Hey, maybe I can get paid per click from this thread! 😂

    @Russell Brazil @Jay Hinrichs @James Wise @Chris Seveney @Don Konipol @James Hamling @Bruce Woodruff @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene @Shiloh Lundahl @Steve Vaughan  and if I left you off this list it might be because I just couldn't get you tagged properly :)


     Yah, I second this. I'm in my early 30s and A LOT of people want quick money. Everyone wants to "build an app", "whole sale real estate", ect. When I had my construction business, the one that always stood out to me is how a lot of the "contractors" or at least the big name ones are actually just sales fronts. 

    For example certapro painting (sorry for the call out if you like them) they are franchisors who sub out all the actual work and don't actually have a single w2 painter on their payroll, they take about 60% of the job, give the sub 40% and the rest is eaten by overhead. 

    I liked my local certa pro branch though, I worked with them for about a year. They actually don't make THAT much money either, a lot of their "profit" is eaten by marketing overhead because of Angie's List, Google Adwords, ect are so insanely expensive in that space...

    Anyway, you're correct, we live in a very "hustle bro" economy and everyone wants fast, clean money without having to put in the work. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11mo

    You need to surround yourself and work with the positive good real people. I am not that old but do not believe this is anything new, for example 25 years ago during the tech bubble didn't everyone want to be a day trader or sell courses on it? Trying to make money with no actual value added. Before internet wasn't there all sorts of get rich quick infomercials on the radio? A fool and there money have always been easily parted. 

  • Member since 2024 · 86 posts · 69 votes
    11mo

    Good post JD.  I am over a decade beyond 60 and have been investing in real estate for over 5 of those decades.  I can certainly agree with much of what you are concerned about.  As investors we put it in up front - time, money, effort and ideas.  And we get our rewards on the back end.  If we do it carefully over time we can create major wealth.

    The lure to get rich quick, which has always been attracting and distracting investors and charlatans are certainly out there to take the uninformed or naive.  That lure is maybe stronger today than at any time in my life.  I personally think that much of this pull to become rich without really putting in any effort has to do with the largely unprecedented accumulation of wealth at the top of the economic food chain over the past 40 or so years.  

    Since the 1980's trends have been toward the accumulation of massive wealth for and by the very few by utilizing economic prowess to create political power thereby creating more economic power and more political power in the US.  Wall Street has virtually usurped Main Street as the "real economy" of this country has languished as a result.  Globalization and the worship of the God of "Bigger" have destroyed millions of our small business, communities, jobs and livelihoods. 

    Added to this is the ability by the LARGE - corporations, banks, generational wealth and etc. - to change the rules of play to their advantage through their economic and political power.  We individuals can not accomplish that. For example, after the Banking collapse of 2008 no one went to jail or was held responsible for the billions (maybe trillions) of dollars that debacle cost and the taxpayers were left to bail the system out.  This and more has further diminished the value of our dollars.  I have to think that younger people have seen this accumulation of wealth and the special treatment of the very few and maybe feel that the system is rigged against them so why operate otherwise?  I know that I feel that Wall Street and our economy in general is rigged for the benefit of a very few.  Fortunately, real estate investment is one of the few types of investment that Big business haven't yet destroyed.

    Until our country rebalances the distribution of wealth to all stakeholders most of us will feel quite left out and that the system is rigged against us.  From that place all kinds of market and human distortions will be the norms.

  • Investor · Member since 2020 · 16 posts · 5 votes
    11mo

    This is exactly my gripe with the modern economy. Everything’s either a scam or scam-adjacent. Nobody makes an actual product/service anymore.

    They build an app... that creates a dashboard... that “improves the user experience”... for a software... that helps a salesman... SELL THE ACTUAL PRODUCT.

    And somehow, those people get paid more than the person who actually makes the product. Blows my mind.

    The “courses,” “mentorships,” “personal brands,” and “influencer hustles” are just the most obvious layer of it. But underneath it, there’s this whole ecosystem built around monetizing the illusion of value instead of value itself.

    It’s all middlemen selling the map to the goldmine... there is no gold.

    • JD MartinBusiness Member
      Moderator
      OP
      Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Allen Bosbyshell:

      This is exactly my gripe with the modern economy. Everything’s either a scam or scam-adjacent. Nobody makes an actual product/service anymore.

      They build an app... that creates a dashboard... that “improves the user experience”... for a software... that helps a salesman... SELL THE ACTUAL PRODUCT.

      And somehow, those people get paid more than the person who actually makes the product. Blows my mind.

      The “courses,” “mentorships,” “personal brands,” and “influencer hustles” are just the most obvious layer of it. But underneath it, there’s this whole ecosystem built around monetizing the illusion of value instead of value itself.

      It’s all middlemen selling the map to the goldmine... there is no gold.


       I didn't mention it in my original post but it is what I despise about VRBO, AirBnb and Booking - everything is geard towards siphoning off resources as a glorified middleman from those who have the actual products. The consumer and the provider are both being gouged royally by these platforms because of the monopoly. 

      Skyline Properties
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    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @JD Martin:
      Quote from @Allen Bosbyshell:

      This is exactly my gripe with the modern economy. Everything’s either a scam or scam-adjacent. Nobody makes an actual product/service anymore.

      They build an app... that creates a dashboard... that “improves the user experience”... for a software... that helps a salesman... SELL THE ACTUAL PRODUCT.

      And somehow, those people get paid more than the person who actually makes the product. Blows my mind.

      The “courses,” “mentorships,” “personal brands,” and “influencer hustles” are just the most obvious layer of it. But underneath it, there’s this whole ecosystem built around monetizing the illusion of value instead of value itself.

      It’s all middlemen selling the map to the goldmine... there is no gold.


       I didn't mention it in my original post but it is what I despise about VRBO, AirBnb and Booking - everything is geard towards siphoning off resources as a glorified middleman from those who have the actual products. The consumer and the provider are both being gouged royally by these platforms because of the monopoly. 


      time to start a craigslist type of booking system.
    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @JD Martin:
      Quote from @Allen Bosbyshell:

      This is exactly my gripe with the modern economy. Everything’s either a scam or scam-adjacent. Nobody makes an actual product/service anymore.

      They build an app... that creates a dashboard... that “improves the user experience”... for a software... that helps a salesman... SELL THE ACTUAL PRODUCT.

      And somehow, those people get paid more than the person who actually makes the product. Blows my mind.

      The “courses,” “mentorships,” “personal brands,” and “influencer hustles” are just the most obvious layer of it. But underneath it, there’s this whole ecosystem built around monetizing the illusion of value instead of value itself.

      It’s all middlemen selling the map to the goldmine... there is no gold.


       I didn't mention it in my original post but it is what I despise about VRBO, AirBnb and Booking - everything is geard towards siphoning off resources as a glorified middleman from those who have the actual products. The consumer and the provider are both being gouged royally by these platforms because of the monopoly. 

      That’s true of all monopolies both government or corporate, and often even when 2 or 3 different entities have “divided” market share.  The pricing is outrageously (at least compared to COMPETITIVE pricing) high, while the product or service is not good, and slow to adapt.  That’s why disrupters cause such disruption; the “disrupted” must eliminate waste, trim the fat, modernize, and lower prices.  It’s interesting that Airbnb and VRBO disrupted the hotel/motel STR industry (especially before they were forced to conform with hotel like rules/taxation, and now that they’re intrenched they’re in need of disruption!   
      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
    • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @JD Martin:
      Quote from @Allen Bosbyshell:

      This is exactly my gripe with the modern economy. Everything’s either a scam or scam-adjacent. Nobody makes an actual product/service anymore.

      They build an app... that creates a dashboard... that “improves the user experience”... for a software... that helps a salesman... SELL THE ACTUAL PRODUCT.

      And somehow, those people get paid more than the person who actually makes the product. Blows my mind.

      The “courses,” “mentorships,” “personal brands,” and “influencer hustles” are just the most obvious layer of it. But underneath it, there’s this whole ecosystem built around monetizing the illusion of value instead of value itself.

      It’s all middlemen selling the map to the goldmine... there is no gold.


       I didn't mention it in my original post but it is what I despise about VRBO, AirBnb and Booking - everything is geard towards siphoning off resources as a glorified middleman from those who have the actual products. The consumer and the provider are both being gouged royally by these platforms because of the monopoly. 


      The "Traffic Mafia".....

  • Member since 2024 · 86 posts · 69 votes
    11mo

    Hey JD,  

    I recently did my first STR on Chincoteague Island VA and I agree with you the everyone seems to have their hand in my pie. Not only the property managers, Airbnb, VRBO but every jurisdiction has their own percentage of my rental property income. Overall, that probably amounts to 25% and that does not include cleaning and supplies. Additionally, I foot the bill for utilities, internet/cable, trash, and more. The end result is not a very sufficient net return on investment. I will probably sell the property once it is seasoned for capital gain treatment and move to a better returning investment type.

  • Charles ClarkBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2020 · 306 posts · 209 votes
    11mo

     @JD Martin

    You’re not wrong — a huge part of the economy has shifted from creating real value to selling shortcuts, hype, and repackaged information. The barrier to doing real work is high, but the barrier to selling the idea of getting rich is basically zero. That’s why wholesaling courses, influencer culture, and “be a middleman” schemes exploded.

    Real value still exists, but it’s drowned out by noise. The irony is that the people actually building, fixing, and improving things rarely have time to broadcast it — meanwhile the hucksters make content all day.

    At the end of the day, the fundamentals haven’t changed: real wealth still comes from real work and real assets. The culture may be louder and more distracted, but the math hasn’t changed.

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  • Real Estate Agent · MO & OK · Member since 2025 · 16 posts · 6 votes
    10mo

    I personally stayed out of the real estate profession for a decade because of this reason.  The promises are only anecdotal truths.  Not universal. 

    However, Warren Buffet is correct in buying good stuff and holding on to it.  It has only made him billions.  Everyone is so bent on timing the market.  But it is about "time in the market" that counts.  When you buy any investment, hold it for 4 years, and you will ride out almost any storm.  Plus, you don't really know what you have until 4 years.  

    Listen to pod cast to learn so you know where to start.  Then start interviewing seasoned pros (10-20 yrs) in the industry that you want to invest in.  Then form a plan.  Then let time go to work for you.

  • Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 719 posts · 313 votes
    9mo

    Agree that a large chunk of people are adding no value to the real-estate market .I am of the mind set since the internet has supercharged the amount of people wanting to get rich quickly is growing at a remarkable rate .That creates side jobs for people squeezing money out of this mindset of people ,ads ,round ups etc .
    Going to higher learning is still the same few jobs will usually be the ticket to punch to get and retire . I have kids,son in laws in Engineering ,Lawyer ,they pay well but they usually have a lot of stress .There are a select basket degrees that pay well and are in demand .Getting my dad called basket weaving degrees keeps the school paying bills .I like the idea of trade schools starting in high school asking them what do you want to do after school ?
    The stock market has created the get rich mindset too on steroids .People day trading ,swing trading .Buying options ,futures for the novice is a quick way to lose your money .The statistics of people who can make money in trading with these various methods is 10 to 15%, probably less .The money maker is the hucksters selling books ,videos on day trading etc...

  • Member since 2026 · 1 post · 0 votes
    6mo

    Agreed! Now I'll be honest, I'm a millennial BUT I was raised by my baby boomer grandparents with with my generation X aunts and uncles. Not only that, I was barely considered middle class so investing was a foreign language in family. My father was a carpenter who was proud of craftsmanship to the point where he priced his work above and beyond reasonable therefore staying low man on the totem pole in the industry. He was good but not very smart or fair. Me? I have a PASSION for doing the repairs myself on a project. Not only that, I enjoy researching and sourcing my supplies, tools, and materials (ethical/high quality/ and from reputable companies) at prices that will let me make a profit but also price my project in a bracket people find more than fair. Angie's list is a major example of how people capitalize on the middle man market. These people just connect companies with possible clients and get paid outrageous amounts of money for something that could easily be done by a decently priced marketing manager for way way less. Everybody jumped on the bandwagon  anyway and somehow still think they have the upper hand. I thought about signing up myself and then realized how angry I was at these people just basically being smartasses. They literally created a whole new industry by saying "hey! Don't google it, go through us! Or hey, cut advertising costs and let us find you leads for a lump sum while we sit on our over-privileged butts and laugh at you clueless ...." Yeah despicable. And I've seen some of the work these people on angie do...overpriced, half-assed, and half the time aren't even bonded. 

    • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
      6mo
      Quote from @Kristen Pack:

      Agreed! Now I'll be honest, I'm a millennial BUT I was raised by my baby boomer grandparents with with my generation X aunts and uncles. Not only that, I was barely considered middle class so investing was a foreign language in family. My father was a carpenter who was proud of craftsmanship to the point where he priced his work above and beyond reasonable therefore staying low man on the totem pole in the industry. He was good but not very smart or fair. Me? I have a PASSION for doing the repairs myself on a project. Not only that, I enjoy researching and sourcing my supplies, tools, and materials (ethical/high quality/ and from reputable companies) at prices that will let me make a profit but also price my project in a bracket people find more than fair. Angie's list is a major example of how people capitalize on the middle man market. These people just connect companies with possible clients and get paid outrageous amounts of money for something that could easily be done by a decently priced marketing manager for way way less. Everybody jumped on the bandwagon  anyway and somehow still think they have the upper hand. I thought about signing up myself and then realized how angry I was at these people just basically being smartasses. They literally created a whole new industry by saying "hey! Don't google it, go through us! Or hey, cut advertising costs and let us find you leads for a lump sum while we sit on our over-privileged butts and laugh at you clueless ...." Yeah despicable. And I've seen some of the work these people on angie do...overpriced, half-assed, and half the time aren't even bonded. 


       I think what is going to happen with AI and its use case is it is going to get rid of the middle man in many instances - which hopefully will reduce the number of gurus that are out there and hucksters.

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    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      6mo
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Quote from @Kristen Pack:

      Agreed! Now I'll be honest, I'm a millennial BUT I was raised by my baby boomer grandparents with with my generation X aunts and uncles. Not only that, I was barely considered middle class so investing was a foreign language in family. My father was a carpenter who was proud of craftsmanship to the point where he priced his work above and beyond reasonable therefore staying low man on the totem pole in the industry. He was good but not very smart or fair. Me? I have a PASSION for doing the repairs myself on a project. Not only that, I enjoy researching and sourcing my supplies, tools, and materials (ethical/high quality/ and from reputable companies) at prices that will let me make a profit but also price my project in a bracket people find more than fair. Angie's list is a major example of how people capitalize on the middle man market. These people just connect companies with possible clients and get paid outrageous amounts of money for something that could easily be done by a decently priced marketing manager for way way less. Everybody jumped on the bandwagon  anyway and somehow still think they have the upper hand. I thought about signing up myself and then realized how angry I was at these people just basically being smartasses. They literally created a whole new industry by saying "hey! Don't google it, go through us! Or hey, cut advertising costs and let us find you leads for a lump sum while we sit on our over-privileged butts and laugh at you clueless ...." Yeah despicable. And I've seen some of the work these people on angie do...overpriced, half-assed, and half the time aren't even bonded. 


       I think what is going to happen with AI and its use case is it is going to get rid of the middle man in many instances - which hopefully will reduce the number of gurus that are out there and hucksters.

      It’s often difficult to distinguish between the conman/fraudster/hustler and an intermediary adding value.  After 50 years in the business I get it right 95% of the time, but every once in a while I’m humbled.   Best to let the “free market” sort it out. 
      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Real Estate Coach · Austin, TX · Member since 2026 · 70 posts · 26 votes
    5mo

    might be worth rebuilding the numbers from scratch. pull actual rent comps, get the real tax number from the county, get an insurance quote, and run debt service at current rates plus 0.5% as a stress test. if it still works after all that then you've got a real deal

  • Real Estate Coach · Austin, TX · Member since 2026 · 70 posts · 26 votes
    5mo

    The expense ratio matters here. If total expenses are under 35% of gross rent, something is probably missing — capex reserve, vacancy allowance, or management fee. What percentage of gross rent are your total operating expenses? Are you including a capex reserve in the expense breakdown?

  • Ryan ThomsonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1mo

    The filter isn't that complicated: do they have a track record or just a good pitch?

    I came into real estate as a social worker making $35k a year. No trust fund, no mentor, no guru course. Started house hacking, got my license, and eventually built a niche around assumable mortgages because I could see exactly how the math worked and close the deals myself. Seven assumptions in one quarter last year. Numbers on the table every time.

    The huckster pattern you're describing is real, and I see it constantly. The tell is always the same: vague claims, testimonial screenshots, income promises, and nothing you can actually verify. The people doing real work have specifics. They know their cost basis. They know their cap rate. They know what their last deal actually returned.

    The noise is louder now because social media made it free to build an audience before you've built anything real. That's the actual shift. It used to cost something to reach thousands of people. Now it costs a Ring light and a confident tone.

    But I don't think good information is harder to find. It's just harder to filter. The people actually doing deals are still here on BP, they're just not the loudest voices in the room. Look at post history. Look for deal specifics. Run from anyone whose main product is their own course.

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    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Ryan Thomson:

      The filter isn't that complicated: do they have a track record or just a good pitch?

      I came into real estate as a social worker making $35k a year. No trust fund, no mentor, no guru course. Started house hacking, got my license, and eventually built a niche around assumable mortgages because I could see exactly how the math worked and close the deals myself. Seven assumptions in one quarter last year. Numbers on the table every time.

      The huckster pattern you're describing is real, and I see it constantly. The tell is always the same: vague claims, testimonial screenshots, income promises, and nothing you can actually verify. The people doing real work have specifics. They know their cost basis. They know their cap rate. They know what their last deal actually returned.

      The noise is louder now because social media made it free to build an audience before you've built anything real. That's the actual shift. It used to cost something to reach thousands of people. Now it costs a Ring light and a confident tone.

      But I don't think good information is harder to find. It's just harder to filter. The people actually doing deals are still here on BP, they're just not the loudest voices in the room. Look at post history. Look for deal specifics. Run from anyone whose main product is their own course.

      Can you expand a little on your investments targeting assumable mortgages? 
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