Quote from @Vincenzo Lomaestro:
Hi BiggerPockets community,
I’m hoping to get some honest feedback and perspective from experienced investors.
I live in San Francisco and have about $90k available for a down payment. I've read several real estate books, understand the basics (NOI, DSCR, cash flow vs appreciation), and my goal is to start building long-term financial freedom through buy-and-hold real estate — ideally small multifamily (2–4 units).
Given SF prices, I know investing out of state is basically required, and I’m totally open to that. I’ve been focusing on Midwest markets and underwriting deals conservatively.
Here’s where I’m getting stuck and frustrated:
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Everyone says “out-of-state is possible”
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But when I actually talk to agents, the deals they send:
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Don’t cash flow at asking price
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Rely on future rent increases or appreciation
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Often don’t match the criteria we discussed
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When I push back with numbers, I’m told:
“Cash flow just isn’t possible in this area anymore.”
I’m not looking for home runs or speculation — even $150–300/month cash flow on a first small multifamily would be fine. I just don’t want to buy a deal that bleeds cash or only works “on paper.”
So my questions for those who’ve been through this stage:
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Is modest cash flow on a first 2–4 unit still realistic today, or is my expectation outdated?
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How do you separate real market reality from agent bias when starting out?
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Is the right move to:
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For those who started out-of-state:
I’m not trying to rush — I just want to move forward intelligently instead of spinning my wheels.
Any perspective (especially from people who started in the last few years) would be hugely appreciated.
Thanks in advance 🙏
— Vincenzo
You’re ALWAYS better off investing locally, where it’s easier to:
- Learn the market
- Network to find deals
- Network to find contractors
- Be more hands-on
- Driveby property to keep tabs on it
- Network to find a decent Property Management Company (PMC)
Next best location is somewhere else you lived, where you have an existing network of family & friends to help you as accomplish the above list as needed.
If you invest OOS, your biggest challenge won't be finding properties to meet your goals on paper, it’ll be successfully outsourcing all of the above.
The biggest mistake we see OOS investors making in our market, over and over again, is not fully understanding Neighborhood/Property/Tenant Classes and how they impact your probability of success!
They all run their ROI numbers assuming Class A results – when buying Class B, C & even D rentals.
Then they’re shocked when their performance expectations aren't met😞
If you choose to invest OOS, and have little to no landlord experience, we highly recommend targeting Class B Neighborhoods/Properties/Tenants. If you target Class C, you better be prepared emotionally & financially for plenty of challenges.
You can find Class B properties in the Midwest to BRRRR, but it will take more digging and YOU will need to understand how to analyze & identify them - because a lot of agents, wholesalers, PMCs, etc. will try to sell you Class C or D misrepresented as Class B:
- Many of them don't know/care what Class the properties are, so they're incompetent.
- Others know exactly what they are doing, so should be labeled as crooks!
EITHER WAY YOU LOSE!
Why is Property Class so important for investors to understand and apply in their investing strategies?
Because the Property Class dictates the Class of the tenant pool that the property will attract.
The Tenant Class greatly impacts rental income stability and property maintenance/damage by tenants.
Both Property Class and Tenant Class will affect what type of contractors, handymen and property management companies you should target and be willing to deal with a property.
The Property Class will also impact the maintenance & renovations you do to, “Maintain to the Neighborhood”.
Why is that important?
Well, if you buy & renovate a property in Class D area to Class A standards, what Tenant Class will actually rent it?
Or, if you put several Class D tenants in a Class A four-plex, what do you think will happen to the property?
So, if you fail to apply the correct assumptions to a property, your expectations won’t be met, and it may even be a financial disaster.
We use the following to rank Property Classes, in order of importance:
- Property Tenant Pool: closely linked to location, but not always.
- Property Location: closely linked to tenant pool, but not always.
- Property Condition & Amenities: it’s important to, “Maintain to the Neighborhood.”
Key metrics for each Property Class:
Class A Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 680+, no convictions/evictions in last 7 years.
Tenant Default: 0-5% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class A rents are too high and won’t be approved.
Vacancies: 5-10%, depending on market conditions.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 3-5 years for positive cashflow, but you get highest relative rent & value appreciation.
Class B Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 620-680, some blemishes, no convictions/evictions in last 5 years.
Tenant Default: 5-10% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Vacancies: 10-15%, depending on market conditions.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 1-3 years for positive cashflow, balanced amounts of relative rent & value appreciation.
Section 8: Class B rents are usually too high for the Section 8 program.
Class C Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 560-620, many blemishes, but should have no convictions/evictions in last 3 years. Verifying recent 2-years of rental history very important! Same for 2-years of job/income stability.
Tenant Default: 10-20% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class C rents usually meet program requirements, proper screening still recommended.
Vacancies: 10-20%, depending on market conditions and tenant screening.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Should cashflow immediately, at the lower end of relative rent & value appreciation.
Class D Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores under 560, little to no good tradelines, lots of collections & chargeoffs, but should have no convictions/evictions in last 12 months. Verifying last 2-years of rental history and income/employment extremely important to find the “best of the worst”.
Tenant Default: 20-30% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class D rents meet program requirements, often challenges to pass Section 8 inspection.
Vacancies: 20%+, depending on market conditions and tenant screening.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, all cashflow with little, maybe even negative, relative rent & value appreciation.
Where did we get our FICO credit score information from?
Check out this chart:
|
FICO Score
|
Pct of Population
|
Default Probability
|
|
800 or more
|
13.00%
|
1.00%
|
|
750-799
|
27.00%
|
1.00%
|
|
700-749
|
18.00%
|
4.40%
|
|
650-699
|
15.00%
|
8.90%
|
|
600-649
|
12.00%
|
15.80%
|
|
550-599
|
8.00%
|
22.50%
|
|
500-549
|
5.00%
|
28.40%
|
|
Less than 499
|
2.00%
|
41.00%
|
Source: Fair Isaac Company
Make sure you understand the Class of properties you are looking at and the corresponding results to expect.
Metro Detroit has 132 cities, the City of Detroit 183 Neighborhoods, which we’re analyzing and classifying. Check out the map on our website where we’ve made this all easy to follow.
We can also share numerous examples of properties & portfolios we’ve assisted investors with!
DM us if you’d like to discuss this logical approach in greater detail!
Horror Stories from those that did NOT Understand What they were Buying:
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/1137397-baltimore-a-path-to-never-ending-pain
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/432/topics/1231840-sell-at-a-loss-or-rent-at-a-loss
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/840134-memphis-turnkey-tenant-turnover-costs
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/963/topics/1195280-experience-of-oos-investing-in-cleveland-after-15-years
