Real danger of asking for private money - long bitter post

Real danger of asking for private money - long bitter post

Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes

I debated on posting this because the incident has discourage me so much. But here it is:

Last Friday I arrived home to a business card from a detective from our police department. I had just got home from visiting my Dad in the hospital, and began returning all of my missed calls and found I also had a voice mail from the detective. Concerned that something was wrong, I called him back. When we finally talked, he let me know that my name came up in an investigation and wanted to talk to me. Since I'm not a criminal and don't associate with them either, this now had me extremely curious.  

The detective stops by later and asked if I knew a couple who are investors in my town. And of course I do. They flip houses routinely, buy at the master commissioner sale fairly often(courthouse steps), have the capability to pay with cash and close quickly. I "got lucky" a few months back when my broker passed me their contact info as good investors to wholesale properties to/work deals with.

My relationship with the couple is short, not even a year, but since we've met I've offered them 3 wholesale houses. The first opportunity I called them, they drove by, didn't want. The 2nd house, we met at the house and walked through it. This was our first face-to-face meeting and the house wasn't for them, but they wanted an agent who could negotiate short sales for them to buy, had leads, and they were fine paying wholesaling or bird dog fees. I was excited because now I get to deal with real investors instead of tire kickers, which seems like the majority of calls I get.

The August foreclosure sale included a property that was a borderline good deal, the house was well maintained and needed minimum work, but was a great buy for a cheap rehab and borderline if you took the rehab farther. I noticed the investors above were working on a prior foreclosure home that they bought at the foreclosure sale, it's on a street that I travel multiple times almost daily. So I stopped and talked to them outside and told them I was close to having this available as a deal and asked if they were interested. After talking preliminary numbers, we agreed that it was borderline  but a possibility.

During a walk through of the potential pre-foreclosure deal, I was permitted to take pictures for my investor clients. Again I stopped and talked to them (outside) at their current flip home, showed pics and discussed the possibility of a deal. Ultimately they passed on the opportunity, no big deal, it still makes a great rental purchase so I have other investors to contact.

As a sidebar to the story, I have flip home that I am working on, and I wanted to get a small private money loan to finish up and cover some expenses to get me through until it sold. I felt like I had a good relationship with these particular flip investors, so I called them and asked if they wanted to give a 2nd mortgage for $3k to $5500 loan at a high interest rate (can't remember but like 25% to 35%). The full amount makes a huge difference to me. The ARV is $89k to $94k, and I'm nearly finished with it, and there's a first mortgage of $58,800. The husband was interested in making the loan but not sure, would take to the wife and call me later. The next morning he called me and said the wife wasn't comfortable and would pass. No big deal.....

Until Friday when the detective shows up. The detective is asking if I know them, yes I do... had I been to their house, yes I have..... Did I ask them for money, yes I asked if they wanted to give a loan... have I stopped talking to them? NO I just don't have a deal close enough to call them yet and offer it to them. Apparently they had a break in at their house and tools stolen.

Then the detective, with my daughters home, asks if he can look in my garage without a search warrant. Now I'm offended and starting to get mad. But I don't have anything to hide and agree. Then he looks in the trunk of my dad's cars that I'm driving while Dad is in the hospital. So I figure why stop there, lets go look at my flip house and the storage building there. So we do. Before we left he asked me if I'd take a polygraph and of course I don't care. Then it hits me that the best clients that I had developed so far to wholesale deals to, now think I stole from them. With the detective standing there, I called them up and told them I didn't have anything to do with any burglary they had and I hope they catch who did. The investor blew me off.

I went from offended, hurt, to angry in a very short period of time. I work my butt off to learn and take action to feed my family. Times may be difficult, but to be accused of stealing without technically "being accused" has me over the top upset. I can't decide if I should quit the business or keep pressing on to make things happen. I don't think working hourly is going to give my daughter's the best life they deserve. And although there's financial difficulty, I want to prove to my daughters that hard work pays off. You have to hustle and you will be rewarded. I'll get my flip house done somehow soon enough and continue my way to success.

This Monday will be the September foreclosure sale at the courthouse, and I'll be there along with the investors. I have words for them, but can't decide if I should ignore them, unleash what I'd really like to say for accusing me (maybe they were just covering all the bases for investigation), or just wish them well. Not sure that I'd ever work with them again anyway. 

Moral.... Be careful of whom and when you ask for a private money loan, coincidence can leave you looking like a scum bag thief.

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Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
12y

Side note-

for 3k-5k etc. 

Those no interest cash advance checks your credit card company always sends out would work well in this situation.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    I think you are taking this WAY too personally. Perhaps those folks did say to the cops "come to think of it, this guy was around here looking for money..." -- but look at it with a little perspective. They had just been robbed. Have you ever been robbed? It throws you sideways. For a short time ( hopefully just a short time) you look at the world from a very hurt and defensive place. A lot of what you've been assuming about who you can trust gets thrown into question. 

    I think you should have some compassion for their situation, and not make it all about you. 

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Jody Young  First off, don't take a polygraph as they can be misread. You allowed them to search your home and cars, and that's enough. 

    Secondly, you didn't lose a relationship, and those people aren't people that can be trusted to judge anyones character or anything else, so let them go. Be civil, and that's it. Don't act friendly or they'll think you're trying to hide your guilt! 

    If they start to spread rumors, see an attorney and get a cease and desist order against them. 

    Do business with integrity, and people will judge you by that. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes
    12y

    @Jean Bolger Without a doubt, I do hope they catch the criminal(s) as I expressed prior. I am compassionate for their loss, and also concerned considering their house is only about a half mile or mile from my residence. 

    But I have four daughters to feed, and reputation/credibility in a small town does affect your income. Like Zig Ziglar said, "if people don't trust you, they won't do business with you." Additionally, flipping is a incredibly tiny niche in a small town. So I can not afford for colleagues to refuse to do business with me based on what happened to this couple. Therefore I feel like I have to take it personal, at least until the police catch who did it. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes
    12y

    I was all for taking a polygraph @Karen Margrave until I saw J Scott's video. I will definitely do business with integrity and let that stand good.

    It's funny because even when I talk to motivated sellers, I always let them know that I have a real estate license (as required by state law), but also that I'm also intending to make a profit through the transaction. I've even got it typed into my purchase agreement and emphasize it before executing the agreement to ensure full disclosure.

    Thank you for the encouragement Karen!

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Laugh it off man. This business is built on reputation. You don't to have a bad one when you're just starting out. I would definitely approach them the next time I saw them to be sure the air is clear. 

  • Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 491 votes
    12y

    Thanks for sharing your story.  I feel for you, but use this as a way to grow.  You will assuredly find yourself in similar situations in the future even if you are doing everything right.  In fact, the more successful you get, the more other people see opportunity.  As bad as that sounds, just stick with it and focus on you.  Karma has a funny way of working it all out.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Why would the detective ask if you stopped communicating with them? They must have mentioned you and said they never heard back from you which put you higher on the list, came in and took off. Had they been in closer contact with you they may have discounted you as a suspect, saying "no, not him, I'm working with him". I've been in many homes and some have had all kinds of things happen, I was never a suspect that I know of as I stay in contact with folks while I'm working with them. And for petty theft or even grand theft, wow, I'd call them and say sorry to hear about what happened and tell them you didn't want to bother them until you had a good deal for them. Not to try to borrow from them at this point but to ensure you clear your reputation. After this blows over, they might be interested later on after you talk to them. :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    Isn't that something?!  An ******* is born every day, and you found some...

    A couple of things come to mind - a lot of things, really.  I'll focus on two:

    One - In your search for money, it is always better to build systems whereby the money finds you, not you look for money.  I understand that this is difficult to do in the beginning, but if you keep this goal in your sights, you'll eventually find yourself never needing money...

    Two - I hate to say it, but my observation is that too often, money willing to lend on activities such as flipping and wholesaling is the wrong kind of money.  These are people looking for quick in and quick out.  They are not investors - they are looking for a quick gain.  This is not a judgement on all, but a lot of these folks are not the kind of stable, respectable, stand-up folks that you want to borrow from...your story is a testament to the character of people you surrounded yourself with - attract better people! 

    Keep working hard!  You have a bad taste in your mouth - I get it.  Work through it.  Examine your investment  philosophy and whether there is an underlying reason why the wrong kind of money may be attracted.  Just don't give up!

  • Real Estate Investor · Norwalk, CT · Member since 2014 · 17 posts · 6 votes
    12y

    I know two people who are upstanding and law abiding citizens who were caught up in two separate police investigations that turned out much worse than your situation.  Both were arrested and their reputations were publicly tarnished due to aggressive police investigations (names in the newspaper etc.).  They also incurred tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees.  Wrong place, wrong time.  Just realize that this could have been much worse.  Consider yourself lucky that you were not falsely arrested and move on. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes
    12y

    Thanks @Aaron Mazzrillo The time lapse of no contact was very short while I was working on other potential deals. Even when we met face to face, I told them I value their time and if I understood what they were looking for then I would try not to waste it with bad deals.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    Best tidbit in that is "anything you say can be used against you".  But not vice versa.  Nothing you say to the police can possible help you, but it may hurt you.  Why would you do something that can have ONLY negative consequences?

  • Real Estate Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2011 · 252 posts · 56 votes
    12y

    I'm sorry to hear that.  Maybe reach out to them and try to clear the air face to face?

  • Rehabber · Smyrna, GA · Member since 2013 · 864 posts · 510 votes
    12y

    A few things here, first I'd just call them and be like WTF?  Nothing to second guess your career choice over.  Idiots and ******** all over this planet, but its probably just a lack of communication/relationship. If you are doing deals you are getting robbed pretty regularly in some way or another, at least I am and if I got robbed and someone I didn't know had just asked me for a $3k loan I'd wonder...

    Second, I'm with some of the other comments, the police are not your friends if they show up at your door.  I've been through something similar to what Justin mentioned.  Pretty F'd up stuff.  

  • Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes
    12y

    My reaction in my head when the detective started talking was the same that you lead with @Ben Leybovich 

    To your first point, I agree completely but I'm not there yet and always agreed with the sentiment that it doesn't hurt to ask. My feeling is you have to hustle every day as nothing comes easy so do the hard work and get the education daily.

    As to your second point, I understand your observation. But if your standing at ground zero holding in your hand the first few building blocks of your business without a (significant) track record, would you agree that it's difficult to partner with someone this early for apartment purchases (maybe even plexes purchases)? Or does it depend solely on the figures in the deal?

  • Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes
    12y

    @Jim M. I did call them, still in my shock phase, and I don't think they the guy was interested in having any part of a conversation. Just distant.

    @Jon Holdman The whole can be used against you but not for you opened my eyes. 

    @Account Closed I hope those two were finally exonerated and vindicated. 

    It occurs to me this morning that the more they talk to me or ask me to polygraph or anything else, then that's just more time that they're not actively catching the real criminal(s). What a waste.

  • Real Estate Investor · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2014 · 132 posts · 57 votes
    12y

    It is extremely important to NEVER allow police to search without a warrant, when a police officer asks to search your house car etc, the reason they are wanting to search is because they are looking for a reason to arrest you.  Their faulty logic used to manipulate you into a search is "well if you do not have anything to hide why not let  us take a look?"

    Well how abut if you had a jealous rival real estate investor, bitter former tenant, angry ex, or any enemy who was trying to set  you up.  And they had stashed the stolen objects on your property, and then name dropped you to the police.  You would have gone to jail.  Also, it is never a good to voluntarily allow a search of your car, you or someone else may have given some one a ride in your car and prescription pills may of been dropped.  If yuo get pulled over, allow a search, and they find prescription pills that are not for you it is a felony per pill.  If you are searched without your consent and they do not have probable cause a lawyer can throw their case out. 

    For further info I highly recommend the book,  Arrest-Proof Yourself

    It is written by a former FBI agent, who was also a Miami cop who set record felony arrests, and he is now a lawyer.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Yes, talking to the police initially is a good thing when you're not guilty of anything, but after a few encounters, need to tell them of your concern that they are barking up the wrong tree and further discussion may only lead them to more speculation as they seem to have nothing toward solving this matter. Tell them you'll be speaking with your attorney and if he advises you to speak to them that you will call them and do so. If they go further they will need probable cause, at which point you say nothing and lawyer up.

    In a smallish town, there is the possibility of a set up, there are bad cops and there are shake down artists. If you impressed you "lender" he may think you're some RE operator with access to money. No saying this is, just that there are all kinds of possibilities, time to clam up I'd say.  Now is a good time to know a police officer too!  

  • John HornerPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
    12y

    I'd like to quote Winston Churchill, one of my favs:

    "Never, Never, NEVER give up".

    When I first started about a year ago I was inches from an amazing deal.  I had a relationship with the seller before he decided to hire a realtor to list it.  There were troubled tenants in the property so they couldn't show it.  He finally called and offered it to me at $0.50 on the dollar, half its true value.  I thought it was a done deal, but when he told his realtor to work up the paperwork she realized what he was about to do and offered to pay him the same amount only waive her fees.  After that neither would return my calls and and about a month later I found out why, the Realtor bought the property out from under me, put about $5k into it and made probably $35k profit.  This was my first great lead and I lost it due to some unfair circumstances... 

    Fast forward 10 months and I am on my 16th deal.  Flips, wholesales, wholetails, we do all of them.  

    BOY AM I GLAD I DIDN'T QUIT! 

  • Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes
    12y

    Great job @John Horner 

    I recently saw an interview with Barbara Corcoran where she said the difference between successful people and others was the amount of time people spent feeling sorry for themselves when things didn't work out. You obviously kept on trucking, thanks for the inspiration!

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    12y

    The issue here is that the detective thinks you are a suspect.  So time spent with you is, from his perspective, time spent actively trying to catch the real criminal.  His perspective is that the criminal is already in his sights and now all he has to do is find the evidence to convict you.  At this point seems like you should decline any further interaction with the police unless you have a lawyer present.

  • Lender · Nat'l Commercial Mtg Lender - Round Rock, TX · Member since 2014 · 916 posts · 235 votes
    12y

    @Jody Young so sorry to hear about your ordeal.  I agree with @ Andreas W.
    My recommendation for you and anyone reading your post is Never (and I stress Never) meet with police or opposing attorney without your own attorney present.  Do not try to deal with this situation on your own.  I know attorneys can be costly but trust me it will save you a lot of money and heart ache.  Talk to people and find out who the meanest attorney in your area is so you can be done with the situation.  Wishing You the Best!

  • Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes
    12y

    Sounds like it @Jon Holdman and I will decline! I've already been nicer than I wanted to be and more open than I probably should have been for the sake of quickly clearing myself.

    Thank you @Karen Schimpf and i gotta say J Scott's video post opened my eyes and yea I'm done talking! That's scary stuff!

  • Specialist · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 900 posts · 392 votes
    12y

    Interesting story, and remember ancient Chinese saying, there are many flowers in the field. Let it roll off you like water off a duck, as there are so many other people who won't pull this garbage on you. Thicken up that skin and carry on. Give them a dirty look at the auction and just avoid them, they proved they are not worth doing business with. Good luck moving forward!

  • Real Estate Agent · Owensboro, KY · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 28 votes
    12y
  • Rental Property Investor · The Woodlands, TX · Member since 2014 · 345 posts · 288 votes
    12y

    @Jody Young 

    At this point, the officer doesn't believe you are involved in the theft (unless there have been follow up questioning) ... in contrast to what everyone else is saying, I think you did everything correctly by allowing the officer to look around (assuming you didn't have any other evidence of criminal activity that he may stumble upon) it reduced suspicion ... and he never truly intended to hook you up to a polygraph.... He asked the question to see how you would respond. If you hesitated or made excuses, it would have raised his level of suspicion. By readily accepting to take the polygraph, you acted like an innocent person, therefore again further reducing his suspicion (but NEVER actually take one).

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