I think one of the best advice ever given (and I'm sure I heard it here on BP) was to ask another contractor who they like to follow. So if I was looking for a good person to put up drywall I would ask a painter who always sets him up to make his job easier to finish. Anywhere along the supply chain you should be able to locate the best person to do the job based upon the work being done.
Also another great way that I've done is to visit supply houses and ask the guys who work there who they'd have work on their houses. That gives incredible insight as to who really understands what they do for a living based upon the people who service them.
Not to poke the bear, but I believe someone needs a better understanding of what overhead is. Just because the materials are already on-site doesn't eliminate overhead. That simply eliminates them charging you for materials. Let's break it down simply.
The truck that got the crew to the site = overhead
The tools they use to do the work = overhead
The liability insurance, workers comp, payroll taxes, the accountant, the attorney, the contractors license, the business license, the electric bill for the office, that notepad they use to write you a quote; all add up to overhead. I could go on, but I believe I outlined what overhead is.
wow! @Joe Cummings I hope no one ends up with that contractor! Meaning the type you described, not you.
I have to say though, I don't like to be controlled, probably one of the reasons why I started my own business, I prefer my customers to have the confidence in me to loosen the reins and allow me to do my job. If I am the one who is going to be responsible for the end product then I want to be in control of that at all times. I have a joke I tell my customers when they ask me if they could help or if they could watch, I say my work is $70 an hour, if you want to watch it's $80 an hour, if you want to help it's $100 an hour, they usually smile, put their hands up and back away really quick. I say this in a half kidding have serious way, for example I had a customer who owned a body shop, very old school with a thick Russian accent. I guess he thought because he can make his cars perfectly smooth that he could do the same thing with spackle and drywall, I left after hanging some sheet rock and taping my first coat, I came back to find that he tried to put a second coat on my work and I ended up having to scrape and sand all the thick clumpy spackle that he smeared on top of my nice smooth first coat. If I didn't take care of it right away he probably would've come back with a grinder to sand it down. LOL
Maybe "Controlled" was a bad choice of words. It's more like "Work conforming to MY specifications". It just seem like so many of these guys can get clear written specifications, and then want to change things around to what THEY think is a better idea. Then the ******** starts.
Really, having worked so long in industrial and municipal construction (Wastewater Treatment Facilities) I find most residential contractors, and remodelers to be a F ing clown show. It's like they all want to do their own thing, but on my dime.
I worked in the world of blueprints, exacting specs, AIA Documents and change orders.
What good is a contractor to me, that wants to make changes on a whim, and totally frucks me when I have to do the next step because whatever he did is now in the way.
There are good ones out there, but damn they can really be hard to find.
Now on a serious note. We vet all of contractors that work for us. They have to give us access to work they have completed. Not pictures, which don't tell you anything. We need 5 references and 3 properties to see with our own eyes. If they can't provide that then they can't work with us. We also lay out the ground rules and expectations well ahead of time so there is no confusion. There are bad seeds as in anything but If you manage properly from the beginning then it helps tremendously.
I've found several contractors who do rehab work for investors simply to keep their crews busy and available for their main source of income which may be high end remodels for retail customers or maintaining their own rentals. One of my contractors has quite a few rentals of his own and has a full time crew who handles all his own maintenance issues. He also contracts to a few investors so he can keep his crews busy. As a result, his prices are a little better then what a typical contractor would charge since he isn't trying to pay his bills and save for retirement out of the rehab profits. In return I don't hassel him on his pricing, I make quick field decisions, and pay even quicker.
I'm not sure where to find those types of contractors as they probably aren't going to be heavily marketing their services to investors. Maybe it's the non-descripted guy at Home Depot loading lumber into a truck with no logo on the side.
I found a great contractor and then I try to find someone better; it's real hard and glad that we maintain a strong relationship with the former. Someone in this thread mentioned you can't have all three (Price, Quality, and Fast), and I agree; the really good ones that deliver on price and quality are usually booked-up doing multiple projects so they can't be fast; just have a realistic expectation. But those are the good ones and then we ask ourselves what we can do to be their best Customer so I can compete with other investors for their time. Also know your foreign language whether it be Spanish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian, etc or go to the these neighborhood chamber of commerce and ask for their referrals.
I keep my antenna up all the time and follow all leads that cross my path naturally.
I have been using the same General Contractor for all my jobs for about a year now. I got initially connected to him through conversing casually with my appraiser for a refi. He was curious about my method of acquiring buy-and-hold properties, and shared that he had started a small construction company specifically to handle his own flip business. I inquired if I could hire them for a job and he said yes, and that led to a steady business partnership.
Wherever I find synergy in a conversation, I keep my mental antenna out for any connection points!
My idea of a good contractor is someone who likes to work full time and earn full time wages. Unfortunately, here in SoCal, I see lots of "I want to work one or two days, charge you for a week's worth of wages, then smoke pot and surf the rest of the week" contractors.
I've never had a rehab job where the contractor said he was done and there wasn't a punch list of absolutely absurd things still needing to be finished. Really obvious stuff like - there's no toilet seat. How can you tell me the job is done and there's no toilet seat? Where were your guys taking dumps every day? Oh wow! You put the floor tiles on the shower walls too. That's... interesting. Why did you put two sink cabinets with sinks side by side in that bathroom? Wouldn't one vanity with two sinks be better? (I have pictures.) None of the windows open and there are no screens. Did you know that all the windows are jammed shut? That horrid smell under the house, that's a dead animal. Somebody needs to crawl under there and pull it out. This one just came in yesterday - The cabinet over the stove is too low to install a microwave and the cabinet over the fridge area is 5' 9" and not 6'. How do we put a refrigerator in an opening only 5'9" high? This is a house, not a dorm room.
Even the best one's I've found end up burning me eventually. I've been doing this for quite a while and there are two constants in this business; There is always another deal out there and all contractors eventually go bad.
I thought contractors were the problem for many years. I was the problem. I wan't willing/able to pay what the value was for their work. NIGHTMARE. Experience is the best way to pick a contractor. Pay them fair, treat them nice, recognise their skill. I try to keep 2 or 3 guys in every trade. Even the best people have a life and no one is 100%. If plumber a is having challenges I go to plumber b. They both do great work and don't mind following each other. I do work to not have urgent projects. I plan ahead and am very clear before we start about what needs to happen. I avoid change orders. This helps the budget and the attitude. If I'm gutting I do wait till after the gut to do the plans, I like to take out walls, but once we are building, I change very little...the planning part is my job and I want to be as professional as I expect the contractors to be.
Really, having worked so long in industrial and municipal construction (Wastewater Treatment Facilities) I find most residential contractors, and remodelers to be a F ing clown show. It's like they all want to do their own thing, but on my dime.
I worked in the world of blueprints, exacting specs, AIA Documents and change orders
Joe, I work in a similar world -- large commercial and civic -- and your "clown show" comment is unfortunately often spot on. To such an extent that the truly good contractors stand out that much more.
Another related problem for many investors in finding a good contractor is the lack of construction knowledge among most investors. I don't say this to demean anyone. I say this because while many are posting their Angie's list vetting process with X number of references and work examples, how many of them really know acceptable work from unacceptable? Just because the work got done on time and within your budget and it looks fine to you and, besides, the contractor was referred to you.....does not mean the work itself is good.
How many here -- not involved in construction -- have any idea if a footing or header or window are the right component installed at industry standards?
I've found that those claiming expertise are among those most easily taken advantage of --- admitting what you don't actually know is Step One.
There is a (fairly new) social network called nextdoor.com. Their mission is "to use the power of technology to build stronger and safer neighborhoods". On this site, members can ask for a vendor referral. Members can also give feedback regarding a vendor with their neighbors.
I've had a lot of horrible experiences with contractors with my rentals and fix and flips. It took me a few years to pick up on this one little method on how to find a quality contractor, but it has worked very well for me since. The method - property managers. Of course, this isn't a sure fire way to always find a quality contractor, but in my experience a quality/trustworthy property manager who values their business will personally benefit in supplying you with a quality contractor, as they're interested in a long term business relationship with you where they manager your properties for years to come - and so your mental/emotional/financial well being is in their interest.
In my experience, some of the best contractors are the ones who don't do it for a (primary) living. My dad was a firefighter in the Chicago area for 30 years. All of his colleagues were contractors on the side. These guys could work fast, professionally, and they weren't even dependent on the income. When your angle is make a little extra money and learn new skills, you want to deliver fast results so your customers don't call you while you're at your 'real' job.
My dad lives in Virginia now, I still think he is the best contractor deal on the planet. He just lives in an area where I can't quite see the investment prospect(s).
I think one of the best advice ever given (and I'm sure I heard it here on BP) was to ask another contractor who they like to follow. So if I was looking for a good person to put up drywall I would ask a painter who always sets him up to make his job easier to finish. Anywhere along the supply chain you should be able to locate the best person to do the job based upon the work being done.
Also another great way that I've done is to visit supply houses and ask the guys who work there who they'd have work on their houses. That gives incredible insight as to who really understands what they do for a living based upon the people who service them.
Agree with Darren in going to the stores to find good contractors.
Especially if you can find a good guy, always looks for ways (ie. do it savvily) to ask for referrals. Good people tend to cluster together.
Also, I like to give a new hire for small job to test things out. Aside from workmanship, more importantly, the goal is to test whether a new worker's work ethic and professionalism.
It's easy to find a person who knows how to tile , it is much more difficult to find a person who you can trust.
You should always check references with anyone you do business with, ask around for referrals, check photos of previous work and make sure to check if they are licensed and insured. Also even if you think you know pricing always get two/three quotes on all your projects. Being a general contractor myself I get way to many homeowners getting burned by bad dishonest contractors and having me come in to fix everything. It's really unfortunate because then they are paying twice for the same repairs and losing money, Try finding contractors that specialize in working with investors as they will know the paperwork/draw process and things will go much smoother but remember cheaper isn't always better its the quality of the work that counts and how fast they turn over the home for you.