Fraud with our Birmingham turnkey property

Fraud with our Birmingham turnkey property

Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 128 posts · 87 votes

In March 2015, we worked through Maverick Investor Group to purchase a property in Birmingham, Alabama. The Seller was Birmingham Income Properties - owned by Brad Lewis and Bryan Conwill. Property Management would be done by their other company, Arbor Trace Real Estate.

There were many difficulties during the rehab and purchase process. Most importantly, about two months after closing on the purchase, we discovered there was not a tenant in the property.

According to our contract, the house would be fully rehabbed with new plumbing, electrical and appliances and have a tenant in place before closing. We were also promised a paying tenant in the house at closing; a specific rental amount; a specific cap rate; and told that if the rental rate was not met, the sales price for the house would be lowered to maintain the cap rate. All of these stipulations were promised jointly by Mr. Lewis and Maverick during a webinar in March.

Problems started during the rehab process. Timelines kept getting missed. The Seller claimed work was done that wasn’t and frequently lied about issues. Fortunately we hired an independent inspector who helped us hold them accountable for doing the promised work. The inspector pointed out an old water heater that the Seller claimed was new, among many other issues. We often discussed these issues with Maverick; their response was to praise our due diligence and repeat the promises we had been given.

The Seller told us a tenant was lined up, but at a lower rental rate than promised. We mentioned up the rent guarantee. The Seller refused to lower the sales price, and eventually told us the tenant had agreed to the original rent amount. Shortly before closing the Seller sent us a copy of a signed lease. We closed on the purchase in July, and hired Arbor Trace for property management.

Almost two months passed and we did not receive any rent or owner’s statements. We contacted Arbor Trace to ask about the situation; we discovered the companies were collapsing in dramatic fashion. One staff member told us the house we had bought was not occupied. We called the electric company and verified that there was no power at the house. The lease we had been shown in order to get us to close at the agreed price was a fraudulent lease!

At that point, we reached out to another PM group in Birmingham. They helped us secure the house (which was empty) and get the lawn cut (there was a city citation on the door about the overgrown lawn).

We are not convinced that this drama is over yet. But so far, we have:

  • Bought a house that will cash flow for $200 less a month than promised
  • Dealt with a fraudulent lease
  • Had to find a new PM company
  • Had to spend at least $1000 to get the house rent ready
  • Paid a $500 bill to the electrical company to cover an unpaid bill
  • Been sent one check by the Seller to cover some costs – the check bounced (twice)
  • Received no substantive support from Maverick – they completely failed on their due diligence

Knowing how BP folks feel about turnkey properties in general, I want to say that we are not against the approach – we are in the process of closing two other turnkey properties with two different companies.

Our warning – stay away from the groups and people mentioned here and always do your due diligence!

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Investor · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Thanks for sharing. My biggest issue with TK is that it never made sense to me. Your goals are not aligned. I always figured that if a TK provider could deliver what they claimed to offer consistently and over a long period of time... they would either keep them or have huge corporate buyers gobbling up as many properties as they could deliver. The fact that they constantly have to hunt for small time buyers is one of many red flags for me. I don't understand why somebody would do all of the legwork to secure properties below market, fund and manage a rehab, lease up and then hand over a great cash flowing property to a stranger while retaining the management headache. That is all the heaving lifting. It is like running the first 26 miles of a marathon then handing the bib off to somebody else that gets to sprint across the finish line to kiss your wife and hug your kids. None of it makes sense unless their one time rip and ongoing management fees are a better deal than the true monthly cash flow. When I go into any type of business arrangement or partnership I try to make sure our business interests and goals are 100% aligned. With TK investing, it simply can't be. More repairs and management fees from turnover equals more money for the TK provider and less money for the investor. Every extra penny they spend over engineering a rehab to avoid future maintenance issues is coming off their bottom line. Then they have no skin in the game if the property underperforms. It's like a perfect recipe to get screwed over. If you want relatively hassle free out of state investing, a commercial syndication deal makes much more sense to me.
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  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 128 posts · 87 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    Originally posted by @Ann Howell:

    In March 2015, we worked through Maverick Investor Group to purchase a property in Birmingham, Alabama. The Seller was Birmingham Income Properties - owned by Brad Lewis and Bryan Conwill. Property Management would be done by their other company, Arbor Trace Real Estate.

    There were many difficulties during the rehab and purchase process. Most importantly, about two months after closing on the purchase, we discovered there was not a tenant in the property.

    According to our contract, the house would be fully rehabbed with new plumbing, electrical and appliances and have a tenant in place before closing. We were also promised a paying tenant in the house at closing; a specific rental amount; a specific cap rate; and told that if the rental rate was not met, the sales price for the house would be lowered to maintain the cap rate. All of these stipulations were promised jointly by Mr. Lewis and Maverick during a webinar in March.

    Problems started during the rehab process. Timelines kept getting missed. The Seller claimed work was done that wasn’t and frequently lied about issues. Fortunately we hired an independent inspector who helped us hold them accountable for doing the promised work. The inspector pointed out an old water heater that the Seller claimed was new, among many other issues. We often discussed these issues with Maverick; their response was to praise our due diligence and repeat the promises we had been given.

    The Seller told us a tenant was lined up, but at a lower rental rate than promised. We mentioned up the rent guarantee. The Seller refused to lower the sales price, and eventually told us the tenant had agreed to the original rent amount. Shortly before closing the Seller sent us a copy of a signed lease. We closed on the purchase in July, and hired Arbor Trace for property management.

    Almost two months passed and we did not receive any rent or owner’s statements. We contacted Arbor Trace to ask about the situation; we discovered the companies were collapsing in dramatic fashion. One staff member told us the house we had bought was not occupied. We called the electric company and verified that there was no power at the house. The lease we had been shown in order to get us to close at the agreed price was a fraudulent lease!

    At that point, we reached out to another PM group in Birmingham. They helped us secure the house (which was empty) and get the lawn cut (there was a city citation on the door about the overgrown lawn).

    We are not convinced that this drama is over yet. But so far, we have:

    • Bought a house that will cash flow for $200 less a month than promised
    • Dealt with a fraudulent lease
    • Had to find a new PM company
    • Had to spend at least $1000 to get the house rent ready
    • Paid a $500 bill to the electrical company to cover an unpaid bill
    • Been sent one check by the Seller to cover some costs – the check bounced (twice)
    • Received no substantive support from Maverick – they completely failed on their due diligence

    Knowing how BP folks feel about turnkey properties in general, I want to say that we are not against the approach – we are in the process of closing two other turnkey properties with two different companies.

    Our warning – stay away from the groups and people mentioned here and always do your due diligence!

    So, you got burned and you're doing the "turn-key" dance again?  Wow!

    There are so many ways to cheat with turn key deals, but, it's like used car dealers, I'm sure there is an honest one, it's getting past the 4,872 who aren't to find one. But, hang in there, you only have 4,870 more to go. :)

     Bill,  you might be right and we might get burned again.  For us right now, this is the best option. If we don't do turnkey, we would have to give up on real estate for now and we are not willing to do that (although we discussed it). I figure that this is still a better deal than paying for the $50K gurus.  So far, our experience with the other two vendors is very good.  

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    There are certainly more ways to invest in RE than do an out of state turn-key or pay a guru $50k.  Thank you Captain Obvious, right?

    There is no such thing as a completely passive investment.  I see how having 'everything taken care of for you' appears attractive on the surface, but then the underbelly gets exposed.  You have to manage your managers.  You have to buy a good asset.  You have to do double DD - on your vendors and on your asset.  

    The underlying theme in all the 'I was duped' postings I have seen are people trying to TAKE SHORTCUTS.

    A couple translations from my planet:

    "A Guru Duped Me." (I didn't want to take the time to educate myself - so I paid someone to do it for me and I don't like the result).   

    "TK Fraud?" -(I didn't do enough proper DD on either the vendor, the rehabber, the marketer, the PM and/or the actual property or the area.  I wanted an easy, high rate of return from the comfort of my living room. Let someone else bother with those little details.  There are no deals in my area that I want to figure out how to make work.)  

    "A wholesaler stole my deal"  Those are just funny.        Happy investing everybody!  

  • Investor · Pace, FL · Member since 2015 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    I am very sorry to hear about your bad experience. This is always anyone's worst nightmare. To help others on BP including myself, can you tell me what you would do differently from being scammed by shysters like these? Also, did you look them up Online to see if their property management company was marketing the house for rent or any other house? Again, I am very sorry. Bad Karma for those shysters.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    Originally posted by @Ann Howell:

    In March 2015, we worked through Maverick Investor Group to purchase a property in Birmingham, Alabama. The Seller was Birmingham Income Properties - owned by Brad Lewis and Bryan Conwill. Property Management would be done by their other company, Arbor Trace Real Estate.

    There were many difficulties during the rehab and purchase process. Most importantly, about two months after closing on the purchase, we discovered there was not a tenant in the property.

    According to our contract, the house would be fully rehabbed with new plumbing, electrical and appliances and have a tenant in place before closing. We were also promised a paying tenant in the house at closing; a specific rental amount; a specific cap rate; and told that if the rental rate was not met, the sales price for the house would be lowered to maintain the cap rate. All of these stipulations were promised jointly by Mr. Lewis and Maverick during a webinar in March.

    Problems started during the rehab process. Timelines kept getting missed. The Seller claimed work was done that wasn’t and frequently lied about issues. Fortunately we hired an independent inspector who helped us hold them accountable for doing the promised work. The inspector pointed out an old water heater that the Seller claimed was new, among many other issues. We often discussed these issues with Maverick; their response was to praise our due diligence and repeat the promises we had been given.

    The Seller told us a tenant was lined up, but at a lower rental rate than promised. We mentioned up the rent guarantee. The Seller refused to lower the sales price, and eventually told us the tenant had agreed to the original rent amount. Shortly before closing the Seller sent us a copy of a signed lease. We closed on the purchase in July, and hired Arbor Trace for property management.

    Almost two months passed and we did not receive any rent or owner’s statements. We contacted Arbor Trace to ask about the situation; we discovered the companies were collapsing in dramatic fashion. One staff member told us the house we had bought was not occupied. We called the electric company and verified that there was no power at the house. The lease we had been shown in order to get us to close at the agreed price was a fraudulent lease!

    At that point, we reached out to another PM group in Birmingham. They helped us secure the house (which was empty) and get the lawn cut (there was a city citation on the door about the overgrown lawn).

    We are not convinced that this drama is over yet. But so far, we have:

    • Bought a house that will cash flow for $200 less a month than promised
    • Dealt with a fraudulent lease
    • Had to find a new PM company
    • Had to spend at least $1000 to get the house rent ready
    • Paid a $500 bill to the electrical company to cover an unpaid bill
    • Been sent one check by the Seller to cover some costs – the check bounced (twice)
    • Received no substantive support from Maverick – they completely failed on their due diligence

    Knowing how BP folks feel about turnkey properties in general, I want to say that we are not against the approach – we are in the process of closing two other turnkey properties with two different companies.

    Our warning – stay away from the groups and people mentioned here and always do your due diligence!

    So, you got burned and you're doing the "turn-key" dance again?  Wow!

    There are so many ways to cheat with turn key deals, but, it's like used car dealers, I'm sure there is an honest one, it's getting past the 4,872 who aren't to find one. But, hang in there, you only have 4,870 more to go. :)

     Logic has to be inserted into this conversation, and Bill G can be counted on to git 'r done!

    WOW! Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this point. What an amateur hour lol

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

     Logic has to be inserted into this conversation, and Bill G can be counted on to git 'r done!

    WOW! Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this point. What an amateur hour lol

    The OP is a TK operator's dream. She insists that TK is the only RE route for her.  So with one bad TK deal under her belt, she presses on to close on 2 others.  A laugh and cry scenario.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

     Logic has to be inserted into this conversation, and Bill G can be counted on to git 'r done!

    WOW! Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this point. What an amateur hour lol

    The OP is a TK operator's dream. She insists that TK is the only RE route for her.  So with one bad TK deal under her belt, she presses on to close on 2 others.  A laugh and cry scenario.

     Yes! Yes! YES!!!!!

    That's the "read between the lines" implied God's honest truth. Kristine - did you see the news letter earlier today? Leading off is an article which appeared on the blog this week referencing TK as the greatest thing since sliced bread. interesting times are ahead :)

  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    10y

    I think for some people TK is their ideal. I interviewed a Doctor yesterday for a podcast... He has done syndication, crowd funding, and private lending.  He started buying TK 18 months ago (with a out of state partner, not a TK company). And said it was the best he has done.  Granted he went about it a little different choosing to partner with a local investor, but he still considers it the same as buying from a Tak company.  

    There are good TK companies who don't screw their clients, unfortunately there are bad ones that ruin the reputation.  

  • Investor · Indialantic, FL · Member since 2013 · 111 posts · 76 votes
    10y

    I don't know, turn key seems like so much more work than handling it myself.  I just wouldn't buy a house needing a full rehab.  

    If I wanted to be completely hands off or buy rentals in another location, I'd rather buy a house needing minimal work, organize what ever work needs to be done myself (minimal work means some painting, flooring, cleaning, landscape) and pay a realtor to find a renter. 

    What more exactly is a TK operator providing?  

  • Investor · new york, NJ · Member since 2014 · 137 posts · 13 votes
    10y

    you say you thought they had your best interest in mind? that is never true with any seller - it doesnt mean they will defraud you but that simply is not true ans should not be true.

    even if there is legal redress - that is expensive to prohibitavely expensive and it usually cannot be put into the numbers ahead of time.... as others have said - it is a terrible thing that happened and there are plenty of other places that have unscrupulous people but that is just part of today's landscape - and why an ancient phrase - caveat emptor - was coined.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:

    I think for some people TK is their ideal. I interviewed a Doctor yesterday for a podcast... He has done syndication, crowd funding, and private lending.  He started buying TK 18 months ago (with a out of state partner, not a TK company). And said it was the best he has done.  Granted he went about it a little different choosing to partner with a local investor, but he still considers it the same as buying from a Tak company.  

    There are good TK companies who don't screw their clients, unfortunately there are bad ones that ruin the reputation.  

    I'd be wary of advice from someone with 18 months rental experience.  At this point it's still a total experiment and has little relevant data. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Account Closed you can say that about virtually any SFR that has been remodled and put back on market.. there is no history.. this is not like buying a MF which has years of operating statements to fall back on.

    you can get best guess on rental rate s and such... but as for history of the asset there is none in the SFR brand new rehab to be rented product... So all companies have the exact same product from the best to the worst.. LOL....

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Account Closed you can say that about virtually any SFR that has been remodled and put back on market.. there is no history.. this is not like buying a MF which has years of operating statements to fall back on.

    you can get best guess on rental rate s and such... but as for history of the asset there is none in the SFR brand new rehab to be rented product... So all companies have the exact same product from the best to the worst.. LOL....

     I'm hard *** on this topic. Nothing wrong with sharing one's process or thinking on rental acquisitions.  But it bothers me that many of the podcasts are offered as success stories from people with no true success yet.  Just no disasters.  Yet.  

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Brie Schmidt IMO that is more than a little different. First biggest difference is he is acting almost as a tk company himself and keeping it. I imagine the cost is many thousands less. Then since he is selecting off the mls probably, his choices of properties might be in the hundreds more locations vs the few choices a tk company has at any given time. Lastly, his boots on the ground are 100% likely aligned financially. Those are 3 huge differences that can lead to significantly different investment results. I think James Wise offers something similar to that and Mehran K. and many others do it that way like the doctor. This was the way everyone did it( buy rent ready or close) in the pre TK era minus the partner maybe. I get your point on the good apples & bad apples still:)

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ann Howell:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    We hope to invest in Houston at some point.  Right now, our main goal is cash flow.  We found that the Houston market seems overpriced relative to rents.  Also, the property taxes and flood insurance take a big chunk.  We will need to do some serious hunting and rehab to get a good cashflowing property in Houston.  Right now, turnkey fits our needs better.

    Ann,

    What you said reminded me of this quote from Master Oogway "One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it." Or as they say in economics "There is no free lunch."

    For me, TK is the last option. If I'm not doing over 20% IRR on my investments here in the Bay Area, I'd just take the money, give it to @Jay Hinrichs, and have him manage it for me. It's totally passive, and it's ALMOST a guarantee that I will get between 10%-20% ROI annually.

    Let me congratulate you for being able to get the heavy hitters like Bill Gulley, Jay Hinrichs, Rick Harmon and K. Marie Poe to chime in. When these people talk, I just zip my mouth and listen. I met Rick and K. Marie on another forum before joining BP. These two are just extremely good at what they do. I would heed their advice since they have been around the block a few times too many.  @Ben Leybovich, not so much. I like to debate with this guy although I know I don't stand a chance. :0)

    It's human nature to take the easy route, and you're paying the price for that IMO. This post is very helpful to a lot of people IMO. Of course, better luck next time. 

  • Investor · Baton Rouge, LA · Member since 2014 · 142 posts · 49 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Norma H.:

    I am very sorry to hear about your bad experience. This is always anyone's worst nightmare. To help others on BP including myself, can you tell me what you would do differently from being scammed by shysters like these? Also, did you look them up Online to see if their property management company was marketing the house for rent or any other house? Again, I am very sorry. Bad Karma for those shysters.

     I've purchased TK and I've also purchased in my own market.  There are lessons I've learned from my own mistakes and would offer this advice to anyone considering the purchase of turnkey properties. 

    1) visit the property and the neighborhood and meet with the turnkey operator before purchase.

    2) get the opinion of people from Bigger Pockets about the desirability of that neighborhood before purchase

    3) get comps from a realestate agent that is unrelated to the turnkey company to verify that you're paying a fair purchase price. You may have to pay a small fee for this.

    4) get an inspection and an upfront gaurantee from the turnkey operator that they will fix whatever is required, and that they will pay for the reinspection

    5) go to rent range to verify that projected rents are in range

    6) Interview local property management companies to get their opinion of neighborhood and rent projections to verify the pro forma, and to offer opinions on the turnkey operators rehab quality and property management ability

    7) Only buy in B neighbhorhoods

    8) Ask BP community if they've had any experience good or bad with TK provider before closing the deal

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Account Closed you can say that about virtually any SFR that has been remodled and put back on market.. there is no history.. this is not like buying a MF which has years of operating statements to fall back on.

    you can get best guess on rental rate s and such... but as for history of the asset there is none in the SFR brand new rehab to be rented product... So all companies have the exact same product from the best to the worst.. LOL....

     I'm hard *** on this topic. Nothing wrong with sharing one's process or thinking on rental acquisitions.  But it bothers me that many of the podcasts are offered as success stories from people with no true success yet.  Just no disasters.  Yet.  

    I am right there with you! We have everything from video chats to blog articles glorifying TK. And the big problem is - without merit. If you've been doing TK for under 5 years, you haven't seen a wave of CapEx - perhaps best to not qualify your strategy and technique as well-established and proven. If you've got 3 doors for 12 month - please...

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Account Closed you can say that about virtually any SFR that has been remodled and put back on market.. there is no history.. this is not like buying a MF which has years of operating statements to fall back on.

    you can get best guess on rental rate s and such... but as for history of the asset there is none in the SFR brand new rehab to be rented product... So all companies have the exact same product from the best to the worst.. LOL....

     I'm hard *** on this topic. Nothing wrong with sharing one's process or thinking on rental acquisitions.  But it bothers me that many of the podcasts are offered as success stories from people with no true success yet.  Just no disasters.  Yet.  

    good point K M P  and those looking at MF sure know the difference between blue sky proforma's and Actual's   or they soon learn quickly. And of course it really hinges on the markets  IE like a West coast market were your property may over 20 years double triple or more appreciation bails you out.. in a market were in 20 years nothing much happens in upward movement of values its critical to get it right on the cash flow component.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Account Closed you can say that about virtually any SFR that has been remodled and put back on market.. there is no history.. this is not like buying a MF which has years of operating statements to fall back on.

    you can get best guess on rental rate s and such... but as for history of the asset there is none in the SFR brand new rehab to be rented product... So all companies have the exact same product from the best to the worst.. LOL....

     Let's do some math, Jay
    These houses are being sold for $50,000 on the average. Even if they we bought for $20,000 by the TK provider, exactly how many of the mechanical systems is there spread to update the right way, and still make a profit on the sale..?! $20,000 rehab happens in a blink of an eye, and that covers barely anything, if done right. So, at $50,000 - what are these people buying? 

    This has nothing to do with the provider. The model itself is flawed to hell. If these TK houses were being bought for $120,000 and rented for $1,300, at least we'd have something to discuss. Such as it is - C'mon. I still have some of this **** in my portfolio - only because having bought for $20,000 and rehabbed for another $20,000 (before I knew anything) I now can't get out...and not prepared to take a loss. These things break even some of the time - and that's without 12% to PM...

  • Investor · Pace, FL · Member since 2015 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    Thank you Fred Stevenson

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ben Leybovich  all due respect your generalizing low end Turn key product.

    there is plenty of higher end turn key product out there. .I fund one company that sells nothing for less than 175k  or so. and they take the buildings to studs and remodel to the same quality I would use on my starter housing here in Oregon and even farther as they tile the entire bathrooms and we don't do that in 350k west coast homes.  they have designer colors slab granite in baths and kitchen.. all new HVAC Plumbing is all replaced along with electrical and roofs windows insulation etc.. average rehab 80 to 100k.

    I have other clients that sell in the 100 to 120 range and they do the same thing new kitchens bath .. etc if hvac is over 5 years old its replaced if its a 30 YO home pipes are replaced with pex etc etc.. roofs are new... rehabs 25 to 40k plus.

    And then there are the deals your talking about which is basically lower end stuff..

    when I bought my 350 C class.. we did just that new hvac windows roof plumbing to the street and bathrooms we spent little to no money on aesthetics.. Rehabs right at 20 to 25k.

    15k on some lower end homes will get you 90% done with the mechanicals if not all the way.  Hvac 2500 to 4k including air.  new piping 3k   electrical 3500  roof 3 to 5k depending on size etc etc.  spend little on paint and floor coverings but do your major systems.

    Now your for certain correct there are company's and individuals that will do the minimum and the person's named in the OP are one's that are known in the industry to do just that. its unfortunate that they ran into this company.. and Maverick or at least one of their shirt tale sales folks was forewarned by no less than me personally.  LOL... 

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Ben Leybovich  all due respect your generalizing low end Turn key product.

    there is plenty of higher end turn key product out there. .I fund one company that sells nothing for less than 175k  or so. and they take the buildings to studs and remodel to the same quality I would use on my starter housing here in Oregon and even farther as they tile the entire bathrooms and we don't do that in 350k west coast homes.  they have designer colors slab granite in baths and kitchen.. all new HVAC Plumbing is all replaced along with electrical and roofs windows insulation etc.. average rehab 80 to 100k.

    I have other clients that sell in the 100 to 120 range and they do the same thing new kitchens bath .. etc if hvac is over 5 years old its replaced if its a 30 YO home pipes are replaced with pex etc etc.. roofs are new... rehabs 25 to 40k plus.

    And then there are the deals your talking about which is basically lower end stuff..

    when I bought my 350 C class.. we did just that new hvac windows roof plumbing to the street and bathrooms we spent little to no money on aesthetics.. Rehabs right at 20 to 25k.

    15k on some lower end homes will get you 90% done with the mechanicals if not all the way.  Hvac 2500 to 4k including air.  new piping 3k   electrical 3500  roof 3 to 5k depending on size etc etc.  spend little on paint and floor coverings but do your major systems.

    Now your for certain correct there are company's and individuals that will do the minimum and the person's named in the OP are one's that are known in the industry to do just that. its unfortunate that they ran into this company.. and Maverick or at least one of their shirt tale sales folks was forewarned by no less than me personally.  LOL... 

    And you will hear nothing from me about TK at $120,000 - $175,000 price-point, Jay. I thought I addressed this in my last post; I apologize if I wasn't clear enough. At that price-point, there can very well be sufficient spread to buy, perform a quality rehab, and still sell with some equity left in the deal while making a profit. No argument...

    Besides - at this price-point, buyers are not buying a PIG, but a quality asset in a quality location. Considering TK precludes value add, at least in this price-point people are likely experience some amount of safety and possibly growth.  I am glad that this is who you fund! This is the intellectually honest approach to TK.  

    Most things being sold TK in Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Toledo, Indianapolis, Detroit, and most other locations in the Mid-West, do not fall in this category. People are buying PIGS, where the quality of tenant base and therefore economic losses coupled with CapEx assure misery...

    Folks lose money, and blame it on the TK operator. They should know better and blame it on the quality of asset they've bought, and how they've bought it. But, they don't know better...

    Like I said - complete and total amateur hour :)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ben Leybovich I currently do no funding in the markets you mention.

    however I have done deals in Detroit 2002 to 2006  Columbus about the same time and indy.. I have a standing Fried Rueben ball invitation to come to Cleveland but never been there.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Ben Leybovich I currently do no funding in the markets you mention.

    however I have done deals in Detroit 2002 to 2006  Columbus about the same time and indy.. I have a standing Fried Rueben ball invitation to come to Cleveland but never been there.

     OMG what is a Fried Rueben Ball? A dance with deep fried ruebens?  

  • Alex CraigBusiness Member
    Real Estate Professional · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @James Wise:

    @Alex Craig

    Not to derail the thread or anything but a thought I had while reading through this thread. Why do you and other "traditional" turnkey operators choose to buy, fix and flip properties as opposed to just brokering property to investors then managing it for them? 

    The amount of money you make is not all that much more than we make when we broker deals for clients but you have to put so much more of your money into the deal and are bottlenecked at what you can afford to buy and flip at any given time. 

    Just curious if you or other "turnkey" providers ever looked into a different way of going about things than the normal route of buy,fix and sell? To me the juice that comes from buy, fix and sell was never worth the squeeze.

    I believe @Douglas Skipworth company does things like we do. What are your thoughts on this Doug? Making an average of 7k to me does not seem worth the capital investment when I can likely do 3 brokered deals in the same time frame and make an average of 2k per deal without having to deploy all of that capital. Did you guys every look into more of a traditional turnkey model?

    Ok, while you asked me a simple question, I tried to keep the answer simple, but I tend to be long winded, so here goes.....

    2k a deal vs. 7k a deal is a huge difference, especially over 90 properties a year. Also, my wife makes all offers on the MLS homes we acquire, thus we get a commish on the front end too, typically on avg about $1,500. I don't see it being a big risk as we have more demand for our houses then actual houses; typically we have it under contract to sell during the renovation phase. While we do have margins greater then 7k and we have had double digit margin profits this year, I will certainly take on some deals known up front that the margin will be below 7k simply b/c we do know it will sell and a big goal for us is to grow the mgmt company. Also, I will take on lower margin deals to not only keep up with demand, but also to keep my guys working. I have been handing out paychecks every Friday to mostly the same guys for almost 4 years. I can't afford to lose any of my outside labor.

    If the only homes we were selling were homes 2000 or newer, then selling TK may not provide the advantages we provide over just brokering deals. That is the approach that a lot of the Hedge Funds went.  But since the majority of B class homes sell in our market are older, I certainly see the advantage our clients get by purchasing TK.  The homes that investors would buy in the Realtor space where they get a discount from buying TK would likely be dated and need some repairs that the seller may not be willing to make.  Keep in mind that sellers in this space are not going to fix every minor issue, often time leading to higher maintenance in the first few years when they should be banking cash flows.  I believe our model of renovating these older homes to retail ready and then fixing 95% or greater on the inspection report will best position investors who leverage for success.  Anyone who gets conventional financing or has loans on their properties knows the importance of reducing maintenance. 

    All that being said, I am brokering 2 deals for friends of mine looking to sell.  It is a nightmare and a lot more challenging since I do not control the deal. Even though in both cases I have informed the buyers to expect more then normal issues on inspection report, once the inspection report came back, it was like that conversation never existed. I have presented these buyers our homes that are retail ready for the area, but they say the price is to high. Obviously I find this confusing; the discounted home that is non TK has older systems (roof, HVAC, Federal Pacific Panels) and is priced 12k under ours is a pass and the homes with all those items updated, new and TK is to expensive.  No win situation.

    Bottom line, I find the TK model easier to control and while the margins have gone down every year, the volume makes up for it, especially since we are growing the PM business at the same time.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 619 posts · 128 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

    @James Wise care to respond to Ben's statement? I know you market what Ben refers to as PIGS so how do you manage your client expectations with respect to quality of tenant base, CapEx, economic losses??

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